SanukJoe

dont you think its a bit extreme to sell off ones land to raise sin sot.?

Maybe I can clear up a little bit on this item.

Thai people who own land can borrow money from the farmers bank, say a mortgage on their land. They pay it back and don't lose the land and can still use it.

On top it is known that if a groom and his family are very poor, both families come together before the wedding and agree on a sin sot that will be given back to the poor family after the wedding.

So at the wedding it is loudly announced how much the groom paid, so he and his family don't lose face (big thai issue, for those who don't know: read about it!). That is the way thai stick to their tradition without bringing families to bankrupcy. Nice, isn't it?

Joe

The tradition is getting money from Farang.

So how come millions of Thais pay it? Are they honorary farangs when getting married?

What are you smoking? Million of Thai paying 100,000 to get married. The only way most Thai can get a 100,000 to give is from a Farang,

Henry, as you claim to live in Pakistan, what have you viewed with your own eyes?

In the past two years I have attended at least 10 weddings in my village/town, every single one had a sin sort display of money and gold, the values have varied between 40k and 500k and every single marriage was Thai to Thai.

This is not an old tradition reserved for scamming farangs, it's an old tradition that is respected by every single Thai national I have ever met.

Tradition or no tradition, let's just think about what this concept results in. With such a monetary basis (requirement) for marriage, it is highly probable that many matches are made soley for money and not love. What about the poor Thai guy who can't scrape up enough cash and what about the Thai girl who is "marketed" and sold off to a Farang, just beause the family neeeds money. This is a common scenario here. Unfortunately, love is often NOT the primary factor. I recently know of one 20 yr old lady who cannot marry the Thai guy of her choice, because her Mother wanted 100K. They bargained it down to 50K, but he still cannot pay. SO, she likely will be "sold offf" to whoever has 100K. This is not the makings for a future happy marriage, in my opinion.

Does one have to be very intelligent to see that the case you mentioned has nothing to do with sin sod? A greedy mother can always ask for money even if sin sod had not existed. And the girl can always run away from home to marry the guy she loves nowadays.

It is fine for me that some of you guys don't like the concept of paying sin sod. But no need to insult the ones that do. I also grew up in a culture(HK) that everyone accepts the concept of sin sod. So you just don't know how much bs is coming out of your mouths when you talk about something you don't know.

For me the sin sod is to thank her parents respectfully for creating and giving me such a wonderful woman. And I won't take it back even if they want to.

By the way, how much did you pay? a2396?

Wise words Meemiathai, I totally agree.

Now, many of the marriages I've seen in T-land are a quite unhappy mix of the two cultures so blissfully united:she's pure as driven slush, he's paying more than a courtesan's ransom in sin sod for shop-soiled merchandise and he keeps on sending the money (knowingly or unknowingly) to support the laid-back life-style of the bride's family.

This is as sad a generalisation as I have ever heard.

I do not know where some of you guys are hanging out and who with but out of all my friends in Thailand some have paid sin sod some haven't, but none are married to shop soiled merch. and none are knowingly or unknowingly paying for her families laid back lifestyle.

Well said! Some people are not able to look at a culture from the owners of the culture side, farang look at it farang way: stupid and arrogant. If a Thai comes to whatever country in the "civilised" west, he/she has to adapt to the rules and traditions of that country, right?

So why do some farangs who come to Thailand not adapt to the culture and traditions of Thailand? Why they judge and condemn everything that is different from their poor, yes poor culture/traditions?

To one poster: yes I'm in paradise and I have my eyes closed. I closed them after haven seen with open eyes how it looks outside of paradise. I decided to leave the rich civilised western culture!? and go for the paradise. I read a lot about thai culture, I accept it and I'm happy, got it?

Hi SanukJoe,

I can't repeat all of your quotes but you speak so much sense in a sea of hopeless, worthless paranoid misanthropy that I would like to buy you a beer in the future.

I see you will be in Isaan in Feb but it may now be some time before I am back again, hopefully I will buy you that beeer then.

Good Luck

Moss

Hi Moss

Thank you for then nice words, good to know I'm not alone in my thinking, no doubt out there are a lot of farang thinking the same as you and me. Old Wanderer is one of them...

Invitations: great guys! I accept your invititation for a beer sometime in Isaan and Old wanderer: I will be there at that house warming party, just let me know when and where. Thanks guys.

Joe

Edit: our house will be ready around july/aug this year, needless to say that you are both very much welcome to visit us, would be fun.

Thank you ten times oven gents. I should pad out details of our relationship as Thai-Visa has its fair share of holiday love losers. I, like you, am not one of them.

We have been together for 4 years, so no! there is no 'husband' waiting in the wings. Just me. I have met her direct family many times. In fact when the kids visit their parents in Bangkok they tend to stay with us. I guess a well stocked fridge, a playstation and a big sofa to play/sleep on is like a trip to Disney land for them. So I am comfortably intergrated into the family. When I upgrade anything the old one is passed or sold (at a nominal fee) to her family. Indeed I have seen pictures of her house and can see my old things in the background.

I am not bothered by the fact I may have to sleep on floors as I have done it in Burma or that I may have to have a cold shower. I am very bothered I will have to spend some time away from all my gadgets (i can hardly recall a life before downloading MP3 files), but I guess it's ok for 3 days.

After your tales I'm sure I can cope with the rusticness of it all. Thanks for that.

My next worry is what is expected of me? In the 4 years I have NEVER been asked for money and my better half knows better than to ask. I have never had a hand out in my life and nor do I think people should. Over Songkran I laid on a good spread on the roof and bought the kids guns etc and everyone had a jolly good time.

I explained to her that culture is a 2 way street and that people who turn up empty handed to a party are not invited back and her brothers and wives turned up with food and drink aswell. Although mine was consumed I liked the gesture. So in short I have the balance here in Bangkok pretty well sorted.

Now, when I find myself in a small village close to the boarders of Cambodia I feel that that I won't know anything.

I understand that it is her time and don't want to screw it up (hence my post) by doing or saying the wrong thing. Will I be expected to pay for everything? Will I be expected to buy her family new stuff? The answer would be NO. However I would be happy to help stock the larder a bit as I am staying there.

So, any pointers on what I am expected to give/offer/leave behind would be great.

Thanks in advance.

Griff

Griff, keep one thing in mind. In Thailand a person who is either having a higher education or in a better financial position is regarded higher standard. If people go out for dinner (example) this person will always pay, without any question, it automatically works like that.

So bearing that in mind it would be nice if you would offer to go out with the family or pay for food and drinks during your stay.

That way you will stick to thai culture and they will be even more proud of you.

Joe

name='stepenwolf1958' date='2007-01-02 00:30:05' post='1058328

Just beware...Many surprises waiting you there...I was in Mukdahan town,made my life upside down to be,divorced because plans together to marry and after all - i found she have a husband there...even she said she is divorced...After all,many farangs,also Thai men,told me that is not so rare...some kind of habit,custom-whatever...man will push her to the farang just about money...I would not like you accept this as general acting of Thai women but not so rare as western people could think...

I agree, it happens, but not often in Isaan. For Isaan women the language of the heart is much stronger than for other women IMO.

Also, there are so many tokens of real love and/or fake that one should be able to find out. I think most farangs want it to happen too quickly, I hear of men marrying one month after they met their thai woman!!! Some take more time and wait 3 months! At home they would take at least 6 months to get to know their gf, but in Thailand it has to be quick quick. Why? Speedy love is bound to collaps.

I'm not pointing at anyone, please don't consider it this way, but I think if farang would take more time they would be more sure about their loving woman...

Joe

Yes they are second class according to Thai people.Never heard of one Thai person ever paying a sin sot if they married a divorced woman with kids etc. On;ly farangs would pay this IMO,which is fine if that's what they want to do.

Read my post above, my brother-in-law (Thai person) paid 2 baht gold and 50,000 baht for a divorced wife with one son.

So now you have heard of it...I was there and saw the whole thing....

Thanks Old Wanderer, some people think if they didn't hear of it, it never happened....

Great story about your Suay woman, I wish I would have been there at the wedding, must have been very impressive

The same questioning: A Lady, never married, no children, age 41 ?

It's not that easy, it depends on a lot of things. Does she have married sisters and how much was paid when they married? Are the parents poor or wealthy? what is the local tradition? You have to find out by talking to people, but the best person to talk to is your gf, unless you don't trust her but then the whole thing is a farce.

Joe

QUOTE(buriramboy @ 2007-01-01 19:17:30)

i really don't understand why farangs continue to pay sin-sot if the girl has been married before, it is not expected and thais would not do it, by all means if you want to give the family money, give it to them, but don't be conned into an uneccessary sin-sod.

BB

If you read my post well you see that not only I got the money back for house- and farm improvement, but they also gave us 2 rai of land.

Economically speaking not a bad deal. For me it's not a deal, it's thai tradition and culture and I'm one of the farangs who respect and adapt thai tradition, in all its ways, and I love it!

Joe

You're the only farang in Thailand that I've heard of that benefits financially after marrying an Isarn farmer's daughter. Are you sure you do ?

I'd never give a divorced woman, especially with kids, a sin sot.

Of course it's a deal.

If you love your woman you will do what is necessary and in the tradition of HER country where you want to stay. On top, I'm divorced too, are divorced people second class?

Read the topic "sin sot" in general topics, very well written, maybe you understand the meaning of it after reading it.

Sin sot is not like paying money for a cow, it is a tradition and has nothing to do with buying a woman or putting her value in money.

If you would value your wife in money, would you dare to name a number? A good woman is by no means valued in money, they are far beyond that, but a lot of macho men think they value a woman by the amount of money they would spend on them, might be good for bargirls, but not for real women!

Joe

I would like to know about way we,as farangs, usually meet our beloved Thai women...Is it just and only in the bars,restaurants...or?

It depends what you are looking for. If you want a bargirl go to a bar, if you want a "normal" girl search for them in normal places like shops, offices, supermarkets, hotels, restaurants.

I met my wife in the hotel where I stayed. She was working there and although I was ready for a wild holiday (a friend of mine talked me into this) I met her the first day, asked her out and she said no!

Then she gave me the most wonderful smile, something a lot of thai women can, and she said: no, not tonight as I have to work, but tomorrow is ok. We fell in love with each other, I came back many times and we got to get to know each other very well. The result is that we are married now and very happy.

So go for that what you are looking for!

Joe

This whole idea is total garbage from start to finish in my opinion. I know many ladies who are asking for 1 million + , with a straigh face and they are not Bangkok society debutantes. Several others I am aware of have the nerve to ask for dowry when they have been married before and/or have children. To me, it is a tool for greedy families to collect money from generous Farangs. This "culture" went by the wayside 200 years ago in most of the western world.

You haven't the slightest idea about thai culture and tradition. Culture is NEVER garbage. If you can't respect it stay away, Thailand can do without you. We farangs are guests in this country, who are you to call thai tradition garbage?

Girls asking for 1 million baht? You are talking a different language! If money is paid it is on a voluntary basis, nobody asks for it, and certainly not the girl!! Read my earlier posts and those of others, it's not buying your wife, it's showing respect to her parents and the money is somehow flowing back to you.

A nice and valuable social thai tradition, not suitable for culture nono's.

My first visit to Issan was a lot of fun yet occasionally a little painful.

Plenty of food was laid on as they knew we were coming, plenty to drink as well, the house at the time was an old style building with low beams (for me). I 'examined' several of these beams up close with my forehead as well as a few low flying door frames.

Sleeping directly under a ceiling fan seemed a great idea at first until beatles flying into the fan are deflected down at great velocity and typically smack you in the head as well.

Some mosquito repellent as the sun goes down greatly improved my mood, as sitting swatting and scratching for the remainder of the evening was not something I relished the idea of.

It was truely incredible how many in-laws were crammed into the car when we went off to the nearest bigger town.

Absolutely true in my case too. The day after our marriage the WHOLE family wanted to go to Nong Kai and said that they would all fit in ONE Toyota pick up!!! As I learned to not come up with logical arguments I kept quiet and we drove to the village to pick up grandfather and grandmother. Then, to my pleasure, they found out that one car was not enough, so we drove with 2 cars. Their only concern was that 2 cars cost more petrol and I offered the trip so also paid. Just figures: family = 12 adults and 6 kids

I live up country permanantly now and wouldn't move for the world but that first visit is always one to remember.

Get up there and have a good time!

I have been coming up with evermore elaborate excuses as to why I can't visit her home and extended family, but now I have given in. I have met her mother here in Bangkok and know her brothers, so it won't be a huge shock.

I'd like to hear a few of your experiences during your first trip in to darkest Isaan. I have seen photos of her home village, so, once again, it won't come as a total surprise.

I admit to being a creature comforts kind of person, but I have traveled around Asia and have 'roughed it' in the past. Just how rough is it? It's more the reaction from the locals that I'm interested in. How will they perceive a non-Thai speaking westener?

Is it OK if I go for a wonder round on my own? (please don't insult me with comments along the lines of "they eat stray farangs") It's more that I don't want to scare/annoy/surprise anyone and possibly ruin the trip.

Any tales to tell would be gratefully read.

It depends for a large part in what quality you visit her village. Are you marrying her there? Or get engaged? Or are you just a bf who comes to see how the gf lives? Different approaches with different reactions.

In all case don't go alone, let your gf show you around, first because she will be proud to show her farang bf, second she speaks the language and knows the people. Learn to "wai" the people according to their status or age, that helps a lot. Smile a lot, that's what they do too.

As for comfort, don't count on anything. My first trip was ok because I didn't expect anything and my (now) wife told me several times how poor her family is (not true, with a lot of land) she even feared I would be so disappointed I would leave her (of course that would not happen, I love her and was prepared to forget western comfort and start again thai style).

So I was sitting on the floor, eating Tom Maak Houn with sticky rice (fingers) but I was prepared so ok. The parents, who take care of 2 grandkids too, sleep with our 3 kids plus my wife plus me on the floor on a thin matrass. If you realise I'm over 100 kg you can imagine it was not very comfortable. Next day we went to Udon and bought a better matrass, problem solved. Sitting on the floor is also not what I can do for hours, but her sisters husband constructed in one evening a chair for me, small but very comfortable. This is called "Farang chair" and nobody but me is allowed to sit in it except the kids.

Showering by throwing a pan of cold water over you is another experience I made. Luckily my wife made it up by showering together with me...

No need to say that the same day that I bought the matrass I also bought a water heater and from that moment all have warm water shower with even a shower head...

I love it, our house will have more comfort like airco, beds, table and chairs, but it is good to have been back to zero, no comfort at all.

The best experience is the food. Simple but absolutely first class. Rice is always available, vegetables too. Mae (mother in law) prepares the meat or the (just caught from own pond) fish on a fire, papaya salad is made, asking everytime if I can eat it (my answer: phaet) and you eat outside for hours, as a social gathering.

I realise I'm drifting away, sorry if this is too long, I'm just totally in love with not only my wife, but also Isaan culture and the people in Isaan!

Joe

i paid and admit to it, but my previous point was about the many people who pay that should not have too, eg people who marry girls who have been married before or to girls that already got children.

When I pay it means I give the money and it's gone. If I get the money back plus some land I didn't pay. It's a way to show respect to your wife's parents and to show you are capable of taking care of a family.

The other part, giving gold to the girl, meaning buying a ring, is also tradition in thai culture, those two are related to each other.

No matter if a girl has been married before or has kids, in our little village a girl can marry twice without losing her face, if she divorce again she has to leave the village!

Joe

Standing right now: 50% paid and 50% didn't pay or don't want to admit

i really don't understand why farangs continue to pay sin-sot if the girl has been married before, it is not expected and thais would not do it, by all means if you want to give the family money, give it to them, but don't be conned into an uneccessary sin-sod.

BB

If you read my post well you see that not only I got the money back for house- and farm improvement, but they also gave us 2 rai of land.

Economically speaking not a bad deal. For me it's not a deal, it's thai tradition and culture and I'm one of the farangs who respect and adapt thai tradition, in all its ways, and I love it!

Joe

thanks! comments welcome too...

Originally it was much higher (asking price) but I negotiated down as my wife has been married before, so "second hand" On top I was allowed to keep the money and use it for improvements in the parents-in-law house and farm, which I would have done anyway..

Needless to say that this negotiating took place in a very relaxed and humorous way, we had a lot of fun together (and a couple of Sang Som as well...).

Joe

I must add to this that my parents-in-law gave us 2 rai of land to build our house on...

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

Prosperity and a good health is what I wish you all.

Joe

HAPPY NEW YEAR to all in Isaan

prosperity and a good health to all

Joe

Suay you say?

Could this be where the word originated then? suay mak mak (very beautiful)

just a thought, but could explain a lot of things...

Glenbat:

Well the term could fit, but the reallity is around Surin four minority groups (Khmer, Suay, Lao and Yer)

each have a unique language and customs. I have found that they do not mix much and sometimes the villages are only 1 or 2 Km from each other.

While all are required to speak "ONLY" Thai in class when they go to school, once they are home it is back to the native tongue. In my wife's village only my wife and "the crazy woman" speak English, so I am left to struggle with my Thai. When they want to tune me out of the conversation, they switch to Suay.

Since some liked my little story about my wife, the story about the "crazy woman" has alway fasinated me.

She is a very nice person now in her 40's, and speaks with a British accent. Some years ago she showed up in a taxi from Bangkok telling everybody she needed to prepare for her wedding to her farrang. She did not have the money for the taxi, but her boyfriend was comming by train to Si Sa Ket in 2 days and would pay.

If anyone remembers the song "Delta Dawn" about a lady that dressed up and went down to the train station everyday waiting for her lover to arrive....could have been about the "crazy lady". Nobody came, and after 5 days her family borrowed some money to pay the taxi driver.

Well she sort of went off the deep end, turned inside herself, and would wear the same cloths for several weeks, sort of oblivious to how she looked. Talked a lot to her self. Worked farming and got super dark. Would just sit down by a tree and cry for hours. This all happened about 10 years before I went to the village with my wife. She was better by then, but when we showed up, it set her off again. At first she struggled to remember how to speak English, and I joked a lot with her, and made her my official interperter....

She went to Pattiya, a month after we left to visit a friend that had married a farang, and tried to "steel" him. She got sent back home. Now each time we visit she is medicated and does not come out of the house. Even when we had our big wedding with a gazillion watts comming from a 10' high pile of speakers, the marching band escorting me to my wife's family home, 11 chanting monks, and a regular 3 day drunken party, she never set foot ouside her home and there are only 18 houses in the whole village and she lives across the street. When I ask about her her mother just says she is sleeping right now. Better you not bother her.

If I every ran across the farrang that did this, I would proably kick his butt and cut his achiles tendon so he would remember each step he took in life after that what is action did, how much it cost what I think was a pretty nice person.

What a sad story, the "crazy woman", thanks for sharing.

It shows again what makes Isaan women also special: the warm heart!

Joe

I wrote in the middle of the text, that there were about 76 trees/rai.

And usually, you can choose what u buy. At special places of course.

Sorry, sorry, sorry Ramses, stupid of me. I didn't see it probably because of the wonderful Christmas wine and dine, not a clear head yet .

It means it's even better news: the 600 brings 4 kg/year, the 251 even more than 6 kg.

Can you fill me in on "special places" to buy excellent trees?

Thanks

Joe

again some really interesting information for rubbertree friends:

After year number:-----------1-----2------3------4------5------6------7------8-----9

Rubber tree type: RRIT251 251.0 356.8 346.4 458.5 433.6 664.5 613.3 538.8 596.0------Average per Rai per Year: 473.2

Rubber tree type: RRIM600 151.7 213.8 263.0 334.4 294.9 402.7 343.0 318.4 385.0-----Average per Rai per Year: 300.8

Taping days per year:-------120----128---127---135---137---119---110---123---128----- Average per Rai per Year: 125.1

This figure shows the yield per Rai per Year of the rubbertreetypes RRIT251(experimental) and the RRIM600

at about 76trees per Rai.

Found at: http://www.thailandrubber.thaigov.net/index_home.php

This site is in Thai only, but my wife translated it for me. Ther are also some movies available on the right side of the page.

This movies describe the use of fertilizer for the trees from planting to the first tap.

They say again, that the right fertilizer is the most important for the trees. If you dont follow their informations, you wil have instad

of tears of rubbermilk, tears in your eyes. Pretty funny, it is like they are teaching children. Of course I know why ;-)

Great post Ramses, very informative!

It doesn't say how many trees per rai but if we go from the average of 85 trees/rai it means the RRIM600 tree brings 3,5 kg/year, but the other one is very interesting, the RRIT251, that one brings 5,5 kg/year.

Brings me to the question: can one pick any quality of young tree or is it just a matter of buying what you can get?

Joe

SunukJoe

You are right. How do we go about it?

I will write to RamdomChance who is the mod of Farming in Thailand and of Isaan forum. Let you know if any news.

Hi guys

I got an answer from RC about this. No chance on a separate forum for timber farming as it is not mainstream in the total Thaivisa vision.

However, RC proposed that we collect all items that are concerned and he will have them "pinned" in the Farming in Thailand forum. I think that's a good idea as it will be at least concentrated on one spot.

There is one problem: RC is not moderator of the Southern forum, so that mod should be asked separately to switch over our topics to the Farming in Thailand forum. RC will do the same from the Isaan forum and as he is also mod of Farming in Thailand he can overview it then.

Anyone want to approach the Southern forum mod?

Joe

Got another pm from CR, he can take care of the posts in southern forum too, so he is willing to concentrate all info and posts re timber farming in the Farming in Thailand forum, though he thinks it's better to call it "Rubber" as that is more clear to people. Ok for me, we can put all related topics there, also concerning Eucalypt, Palm oil etcetera.

I answered RC that we have a "think" break till after New Year, so I promised him to come back to it then.

Joe

(thought of the abbreviation of Farming in Thailand: FIT, suddenly I realised how nice Timber in Thailand would have been )

Thanks Somtham for your excellent report! Very informative and I know now why my wife always says: NO CP!! She buys from small farms, looks at the pigs and circumstances and decides whether or not to buy.

Joe

Perhaps one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is, there's land,

and then there's land.

Do never use the land prize only as your measuring stock !

There are several different types of land papers here.

If you think, wow ! that sounds cheap.

There are some things you should check out before making a purchase.

Thailand has lots of protected and "deed less" land, that's being used for agricultural purposes.

Farming such land can be a risky proposition, as the government can

take it away from you without any notice !

Usually, this is the kinda land you see, being sold at a third of the price

from land where you have the correct papers.

So what are the deeds you should look out for ?

Only buy land which has either the "nu-so-sam" or "ko-sor-no-ha" papers.

("ko-sor-no-ha" is agricultural co-operative land, that after ownership of 5 years can be converted into "nu-so-sam".)

With "nu-so-sam" you can borrow money on the land from any commercial bank, and it can't be taken away from you.

You can also do it with "ko-sor-no-ha", but it has to be from the "agricultural co-operative bank" only.

Stay away from "so-po-kor-nung".

It is land that's being rented from the government.

They can take it back anytime, and you can't borrow on it either.

Never buy land with only a contract from the seller !

(I've seen it happen)

I've been doing oil palms for 15 years and I don't like much of what I see.

The oil palm prices today, are exactly the same as they were 10 years ago !

10 years ago, things were cheaper and fertilizer about half the prize.

Most Thais seems oblivious to this fact, but what it actually means is that

oil palm prices has been gradually decreasing.

The only bright side is that land prices has virtually sky rocketed during this time.

If you have the cash, doing either palm or rubber is better than having it in the bank.

As a foreigner you can't own land, so make sure you trust your partner 100%

before going shopping.

When we bought our land some 15 years ago, we got the whole investment back within about 5 years.

Today I think it'll take between 20-30 years, at least if you're into palm.

Great post Friend2, very informative.

As Timber asked already, can you give us info about actual prices of palm oil? Would be good to know, and on top where do you sell it to and in what part of Thailand.

Questions, questions, we are soooo nosy...

Joe