morphic

Does anyone else want to tell the forum how much they think a 45 year old needs to retire in Pattaya? Remember, we know it depends and is personal and there is no unique answer, just want your personal estimate to help build a distribution of estimates. Just a number, no need to explain how you arrived at that number.

So far we have 2 posters saying USD 1.5 million, one at 1 million, one at USD 500K and one at USD 400K (the OP).

We need more estimates to build a picture of what the average estimate is and what the lows and highs are.

also,

if he put 200k into philip morris and kraft he would get a dividend of roughly 3k U.S. per month

If those 2 go out of bizness we are in more trouble than money can solve

The dividend yield for both of those companies is roughly 3.8% a year at the moment. That means USD 200K would yield about USD 7600 per year. That is just over USD 600 per month, not USD 3000. Maybe you are looking at out of date dividend rates or need a new calculator. Also, Im calculating before tax is deducted. After tax the yield will be much lower and as the tax is deducted automatically there is no obvious way to escape it.

I have a portfolio worth literally exactly $400,000 USD. About $250,000 USD of that of that is in my brokerage account, the rest is in either my Traditional IRA, Roth IRA, or 401-k accounts. I assure you, that taxes are NOT automatically deducted when one gets dividend income. No taxes are taken out automatically. The dividend distribution is paid by the fund or company. Yes, dividends are in general taxable and depending on whether they are "qualified" distributions or not, they are taxed a bit differently than other ordinary income. I own dividend paying stocks (AT$T mostly), dividend paying mutual funds, and individual "taxable" bonds in my IRA accounts.

I have a large part of my regular brokerage account monies in Tax Free Municipal Bond funds or Individual Municipal bonds. Most are also exempt from any AMT considerations.

OK, I forgot about you Yanks and your retirement accounts. The question then is what tax rate you will pay when you draw from your account when it comes to using it.

Irrespective, you aren't getting USD 3000 per month from USD 200 K in Philip Morris and Kraft, not anywhere close and that was the claim you made.

500,000 us$ for me would be enough to retire at 45 if staying single.

So far we have 1.5 million x 2, 1 million, 500K and 400K for the OP, hope I haven't missed any.

Lets see if we get a few more contributions to see if any kind of picture emerges.

also,

if he put 200k into philip morris and kraft he would get a dividend of roughly 3k U.S. per month

If those 2 go out of bizness we are in more trouble than money can solve

The dividend yield for both of those companies is roughly 3.8% a year at the moment. That means USD 200K would yield about USD 7600 per year. That is just over USD 600 per month, not USD 3000. Maybe you are looking at out of date dividend rates or need a new calculator. Also, Im calculating before tax is deducted. After tax the yield will be much lower and as the tax is deducted automatically there is no obvious way to escape it.

OK, if it's a person age 45 with no expectation of any pension or inheritance I think US one million (largely invested) would be enough to live a comfortable enough life in Thailand or similar destinations. But that's not the OP's situation. He could do with less.

Thanks. And yes, I'm assuming the person is in their mid 40's, as per the OP.

people yawn when they read questions "how long is a piece of string?" (like yours). that's what you don't grasp.

Naam, I get the feeling you are a small fish in an extremely small pond. Do you know what I mean by that?

We know different people will have different perceptions of what it means to be comfortable etc and will have a different understanding of what returns to reasonably expect on their capital and also of what kinds of risks they face of their capital being eroded by the way the world changes. Yes, Naam (yawn yawn yawn) we know that, we know everyone will have a different number, there is no unique answer.

That is exactly why I would like to know what a number of people think the "number" is, id like to know what the range is, what the distribution looks like. As I said, I think the number that is enough is USD 1.5 million. Some people will feel that is too low, some will feel that is far than enough. So, don't discuss, just post a personal estimate. The end result of a number of posts will be telling, if we ever get there.

The actual number is very individual

nail, head, hammer!

besides... capital does not mean much. one does not live by using the capital itself but by the proceeds it generates. prevailing interest on 5 million cash in USD, EUR, JPY, CHF and SGD (to mention a few) provide for a rather modest lifestyle. an actively managed capital of 1 million (of the afore-mentioned currencies) may provide the basis for a quite comfortable lifestyle.

nota bene: individual mileages vary as far as "moderate" and "comfortable" lifestyles are concerned.

Yawn, yawn, yawn....yes, I know each person's number is going to be individual...the point is to just obtain a distribution of individual estimates (without discussion please) and see what it ends up looking like....

But I guess this level of abstraction is to hard for posters on this forum to grasp...

I guess I'm a target for the 'little people'. Chuckle. Kind of like Duke's of Chiang Mai?

OK, so USD400K isn't enough for a man in his mid 40's, assuming he never works again, isn't a Warren Buffet in bis investment abilities and that we face continuous inflation, currency and investment risks.

So if USD400K isn't enough, what is?

Lets not discuss, just post a number that you think is enough to lead a comfortable, healthy and fun existence and assume the person will make some kind of reasonably wise investment choices....

I'll start off...........

USD 1.5 million

I just did a search of what properties are available in Aberdeen, as i see both Pattaya and Aberdeen property markets as being somewhat resillient to rescession, Aberdeen because of the local Oil generated revenues and Pattaya because of the huge influx of multi national visitors, and both bucking the trend nationally as far as average prices go. Both are also located on the coast - but i would not recommend swimming in the waters of either - for different reasons

The cheapest detached house in Aberdeen was listed at offers over 125,000 pounds, 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom in need of modernisation......see picture.

Take 125K as being around 6 million baht...... there are some fantastic properties available here in Pattaya for that price, New 3 or 4 bedroom homes with their own pools, see this....

240 3 bed 3 bath.pdf

So, as Naam said earlier, couple that with the lower cost of living here, and what you do or do not have to pay the taxman, makes it quite clear to me where the better value for money in houses is.

As i said before, yes there are some houses overpriced in Pattaya but in general terms you do get much more property for your money here (certainly compared with my hometown of Aberdeen), i cannot see how that is so hard to grasp for some people.

Note: i am talking about houses NOT condos!

Thats got to have been one of the most stupid comparisons I have ever heard.

Why Aberdeen for a start, an oil boom town in a first world country with the benefit of the rule of law, working infrastructure and high standards of construction. Aberdeen should be far more expensive than Pattaya!

Why not compare to other developing coastal areas, including in Thailand, or to other developed countries like the US. How about Seattle where the average home is about USD 200K. Thats the average, not the cheapest. How about Spain or Southern France or Malta? Or to Malaysia where the quality of construction is higher, where the law of contract is superior, where you can own land outright as a foreigner?

Sorry matey, your random and absurd choice of benchmark is laughable. But forgetting for a second the stupidity of comparing Pattaya to Aberdeen, the most telling sign of Pattaya's property being grossly overvalued is that there is almost zero resale volume, 99% is off plan. Thats because owners cant find buyers at their asking price, nor anywhere near it. If as you claim it was good value there would be buyers.

Unless of course they use Thai economic theory and increase the price every year it's not sold.

In any case it still means that NOW they are overpriced.

As opposed to your economic theory that prices should be dropped lower and lower irrespective of losses in a sluggish market. If everyone is keeping their prices at a certain level, those are the prices, but you judge the prices by how many people are buying.

Your theories are based on how people react in the West when they have variable mortgages and fire sale because they cannot make payments.

The market price is determined by what people will buy at, not what sellers dream they can get.

If everyone is keeping their prices at a certain level and there are no buyers, then they are overpriced.

Actually not, the market price is determined by the point at which buyer and seller meet.

Buyer's price determines the market bid, and seller's price the ask.

Just because Rolly Royce doesn't sell a lot of cars in Burma or Bangladesh doesn't mean that RR are overpriced.

When sellers and buyers don't meet, there is a bid/ask spread.

The wider the gap, the more illiquid the market.

The "fair price" is somewhere between.

Very simplistic, the world is more complicated than that

There is so much scope here for secure farang retirement villages with no one under 50, no dogs, no bars, no outdoor music, no Songkran riots, some nice garden areas. I would move in like a shot. Cant imagine why no one has launched one.

For all that...you would have to add...no Thais too

Thais in a next door detached house in a middle class ( by Thai standard ) Moo baan are mainly no trouble .Thais as neighbours in a Condominium can be a problem .Some leave their Condo door open all day ,with noise and cooking smells entering your Condo as a result .

Leaving the door open seems to be an Asian thing generally. They seem to have no concept of noise disturbance or consideration whatsoever.

For all the obvious outrage and concerns by expats, I think that this problem will never be solved by farangs.

I have never heard of an organised anti-scam group which works against scammers who perpetrate scams on people who live here full time, never mind one that could possibly reach out to tourists from many countries.

It probably will end up by scammer gangs starting to fight each other, so that eventually someone will have to take notice

Emmm, nor have I, but so what? Ive also never heard of any "anti scam group" full stop, of any kind, i.e., nobody has ever tried.

I think it would probably work, its simple, just needs to draft a sensible list in clear English, have it translated, produce a multi-language leaflet and ask the hotels to distribute to guests when they check in. If the hotels agree their guests have a more pleasurable and lower risk stay and are more likely to return. The only losers will be the jet ski criminals.

Once I saw the aforementioned aggressive behavior being doled out to some innocent chaps, I realized its serious nature. I have a hunch that the people who are investing a lot of well spent energy in informing the naive of the real danger, have either experienced it; witnessed it; talked to people who were victims, or - being concerned citizens - researched the matter. This is a very serious issue! Always remember one thing about Pattaya. If you are attacked - except in a few rare cases - no one will come to your aid!

Sadly, as I am a long time downtown Pattaya resident - who used to really enjoy gallivanting around the beach area, I think that Pattaya is definitely going down hill, or perhaps the economic downturn has just evaporated the fog.

Lets not get side tracked by small details. What matters is the scam is going on everyday and it isn't acceptable. The question now is what action can we take to fight it?

Where the law itself is involved and where the perpetrators are vicious gangs of thugs it seems hard to imagine any way to even slow it down.

I suppose most posters are experienced Pattaya people, we are savvy, we steer clear of bad people, the scams and other dangers of Thailand and Pattaya in particuliar. So for us it is our knowledge and experience. And I am afraid all we can do is try to pass that on, i.e. education is the only weapon we have to do our bit. We aren't going to storm the beach and fight these people, we aren't going to convince the law to clean up their act and we won't convince the Thai government that they need to clamp down on Pattaya.

We just need to ask ourselves on which ways we can help broaden awareness of this and other issues.

Do all embassies include this in their travel warnings? Does the UK, does Russia, does India, do the Arab countries. These embassies and their consulates should be informed and asked about this.

Have airlines considered distributing a list of do's and don't about Thailand to passengers?

Would Pattaya hotels be willing to display a list of do's and don't's for Pattaya to their guests, perhaps when checking in?

Do people have suggestions, does anyone agree with my thoughts and if yes, then what steps can we now take and are there any Thai people that may help? Would the mayor act as a conduit for us, he may be better received by the hotels and consulate and airlines etc, than a bunch of concerned "tourists"?

There are six embassies that have warnings Australia, New Zealand, USA, Canada , UK and Ireland. but I am unsure about Russia India or the Arab Countries

I think all of the relevant embassies and their consulates should be quizzed on this matter. Any that don't have a warning should be told they are an increasingly isolated minority and that other embassies are warning their citizens.

And importantly, the mayor should be written to and informed of the embassy warnings and asked to gain the cooperation of the hotels and guest houses. I believe that if sufficiently connected falangs exist then may be a visit to him could be arranged too, but this approach would have to be done in a professional and proper manner. It should be his duty to get the hotels informed in handing out a multi-language leaflet detailing a list of do's and don't's for Pattaya. The embassy warning are just one form of official stance, most people don't actually check. Once the hotels start handing out leaflets then there is a good chance of a majority of visitors gaining the knowledge to inform them of the criminals.

It would be good if the airlines were to also hand out leaflets to passengers but I doubt that will happen.

I believe the best course of action is for the mayor to request that all hotels hand out leaflets. If we want to play a part in this then we could help draft the leaflet (English version) and forward to the mayor. It would need to be very precise, short and clear and cover only a few points. And it would have to be translated into Thai, Russian, Indian languages, Arabic, French, German and other relevant languages.

If enough hotels participate I believe this jet ski business could be cut off at the knees. And if other beach vendors such as the boat owners realise their business is also being hurt then they might finally drive the jet ski criminals out for good, possibly in a violent manner.

Lets stop just focusing on reporting the scam to taking action.

Once I saw the aforementioned aggressive behavior being doled out to some innocent chaps, I realized its serious nature. I have a hunch that the people who are investing a lot of well spent energy in informing the naive of the real danger, have either experienced it; witnessed it; talked to people who were victims, or - being concerned citizens - researched the matter. This is a very serious issue! Always remember one thing about Pattaya. If you are attacked - except in a few rare cases - no one will come to your aid!

Sadly, as I am a long time downtown Pattaya resident - who used to really enjoy gallivanting around the beach area, I think that Pattaya is definitely going down hill, or perhaps the economic downturn has just evaporated the fog.

Lets not get side tracked by small details. What matters is the scam is going on everyday and it isn't acceptable. The question now is what action can we take to fight it?

Where the law itself is involved and where the perpetrators are vicious gangs of thugs it seems hard to imagine any way to even slow it down.

I suppose most posters are experienced Pattaya people, we are savvy, we steer clear of bad people, the scams and other dangers of Thailand and Pattaya in particuliar. So for us it is our knowledge and experience. And I am afraid all we can do is try to pass that on, i.e. education is the only weapon we have to do our bit. We aren't going to storm the beach and fight these people, we aren't going to convince the law to clean up their act and we won't convince the Thai government that they need to clamp down on Pattaya.

We just need to ask ourselves on which ways we can help broaden awareness of this and other issues.

Do all embassies include this in their travel warnings? Does the UK, does Russia, does India, do the Arab countries. These embassies and their consulates should be informed and asked about this.

Have airlines considered distributing a list of do's and don't about Thailand to passengers?

Would Pattaya hotels be willing to display a list of do's and don't's for Pattaya to their guests, perhaps when checking in?

Do people have suggestions, does anyone agree with my thoughts and if yes, then what steps can we now take and are there any Thai people that may help? Would the mayor act as a conduit for us, he may be better received by the hotels and consulate and airlines etc, than a bunch of concerned "tourists"?

Another Victims report

I am embarrassed to say I was a victim of this scam. My and my friend rented two jet skis in Pattaya and did NOT have any accident. Upon return they demanded 80,000 Thai baht for a few scrapes we didn't make. We didn't have the money and 7 or 8 boys started beating us. We both had to go to the hospital for injuries. Later we told the police who said there was nothing they could do and we should have just paid them.

I WILL NEVER COME TO THAILAND AGAIN and have been telling everyone I know to do the same.

Wait a second. Is this for real? I know it's very bad, but reading that it sounds like someone violently assaulted or even murdered by these thugs can't even get the perps arrested for VIOLENCE? Not paying a scam is justification for violent assault? Really? If the perps could finger the perps, the police would refuse to arrest?

This was from the same guy

Take a photo with your own camera. I did not and they changed the photos in the camera. If you use their camera, you will be cheated.

The Columbus Dispatch (one of the USA's largest newspapers) is supposed to be doing a full article on my attack while I was in Thailand, along with this scam, and will be advising Americans to not travel to Pattaya if they come to Thailand.

If you have been a victim as I have, I urge you to talk to your local press and Embassy. Expose this crime as much as you can to everyone you know. Translate to other languages if you can. Let the world know what is happening in Pattaya.

I'm surprised the airlines don't distribute a list of do's and don't's for visitors. Then all arrivals would be potentially educated as to the dangers that exist. If the authorities, the locals, the mafia all act as if ripping off, cheating, assaulting and otherwise abusing visitors and foreigners is acceptable then those potential victims should be protected.

I have to say that I have very little respect left for most Thai's, Thai culture, Thai business or Thai politics. In business I am always thinking, cash on delivery matey, no credit here, as I find it impossible to trust any of them based on my experience. My respect has been eroded over the years. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy my visits, I still do, so far. But the greed, racism, aggression, violence, corruption, dishonesty and ignorance that are so often evident or just beneath the surface, are utterly objectionable.

There clearly must be something very odd about any property market where places stay on sale for years on end. This just isnt normal.

I think that the entire condo market in Pattaya is warped by the large percentage of people who own many units, and who have no real motive for selling them because they cost relatively little to own (no property taxes) and they dont need the money and couldnt get any real return anywhere else anyway. So if you dont need the cash or the income, you may as well just keep the condo on the market at a high price and hope that a farang pigeon will land on your balcony one day, and perhaps get some rental income in the meantime as well. And that is exactly what the owners here are doing.

And in the end you only need to compare the cost of a house with the cost of a condo. It is all very out of kilter. Most condo prices need to drop perhaps 30-40% to be at any sort of sensible level. And the proof is that many units sold are only sold at a big discount on average asking prices. All the ones I have seen recently have been in this group.

I am prepared to pay perhaps 20-30% below average asking prices for a reasonable unit that I could live in indefinitely, on the assumption that if other all units drop to a reasonable price in a "crash" I wont actually lose very much.

I completely agree that asking prices are much too high. As far as how much thats hard to say. I would say they are over priced by a minimum of 30-40% on average.

if bidding remember this is not London, Singapore or even Bangkok. Where there is a liquid market with frequent transactions it is easier to estimate a "fair value". Here, the asking price is often the owner's fantasy and unless that owner needs the money immediately then there will be no reasonable negotiation.

To discover whether the owner is reasonable or not you need to be prepared to offer vastly less than he is asking, far more aggressively than you would in a normal market. That may mean offering just 50% of the asking price. Or, if that asking price is particuliarly stupid, it could be just 30%. The price you pay must be based on its fair price, not the inflated asking price. (Its not the duty of the buyer to make the seller rich and also don't think the agent is supposed to be your friend). If the owner says no to your offer then fine, leave it, walk away.

But if he is a genuine seller then he should move to some extent etc. If not then why waste your money and have to hold for the next 20 years to have any chance of getting your money back?

Maybe the best analogy is to buying a T-shirt from one of the stalls here. You say, "how much" and he says 600 Baht. You ask for his best price, he says 300. You offer 150 and he won't budge. If you want the shirt you need to pay a bit more so you say 200 and he agrees. Deal done, both sides happy. You just paid a third of his ludicrous asking price, he made a fair profit.

We all understand the difference here between the asking and selling price. Sellers and buyers understand prices are negotiable. When I priced condos to sell you always give yourself some "wiggle" room and it also makes the buyer feel good getting a lower price. But we are talking about real estate here and not T-shirts. When you make unsupported generalizations of high prices and offers of 30-50% and you lose all credibility. If you made me an offer like that I would escort you the lift or the balcony edge of my condo and say the way down is your choice.

Not making up stories, I negotiated the price down by about 40% and as I said, I still didn't think it was worth the money.

And I am not making unsupported generalisations, I have backed my assertions up with solid arguments. The arguments were the low rental yields and the very low turnover, i.e., properties sitting offered but unsold for years. These are both factual, verifiable statements. Go and check for yourself, learn something.

I do think the T-shirt analogy is valid. Lots of sellers waiting for a sucker to pay vastly over the odds and the only way to discover the true price is to offer far below asking. And judging by the evidence of low turnover and yields etc, there will be a seller now and then that is genuine and will cut their asking price by a huge amount. Then, there are many others who will wait years for a sucker to come along, but that will probably never happen. these people may well have to hang onto their properties until the day they die. But property here is horribly and cheaply constructed and for every year they wait their property becomes less desirable. Even 10 years is considered old here.

Sorry, but the property here just shouldn't be more than a small fraction (10%, say, maximum) of prices in say, London, Singapore etc. Every time I enter one of those condos with its dark corridors, the usual flickering lights, the usual dodgy characters, the usual toilety smell, the usual paper thin walls, the tacky furniture, I think, wow, these are liabilities, not assets. On the other hand you get the new ones with the new feel but these are often even more over priced versions of the older ones, the walls are just as thin, the fittings are just as tacky and in a few years they will feel just as seedy. And by the way, Im including the better down town beach road condos in this, that View Talay thing on Beach Road is a monstrosity. I don't even want to look at the out of the way places in Jomtien and central Pattaya, they are almost more like doss houses than homes.

I also don't think super bargains on foreign owned units are that common. Discounts, yes, gifts, not so much. I do think a lot of people WISH they were. If I was selling and I got one of these offer 50 percent bozos after pricing the unit based on my perception of the market (which isn't that hard to determine really), I would probably just laugh at the guy and say Bye Bye. Why waste time with a buyer like that who is never going to pay anywhere near the price you think your place is worth? There are of course desperate for cash sellers, so the trick is to find them. Sales made by them don't reflect the larger market. Like the vast majority of buyers who paid cash, I'd rather sit on it for years than GIVE it away. Yes, that's the psychology and if you buy with cash, you're likely to be the same way. And so it goes.

Right now, I think there is a balance between buyers and sellers, but I could be wrong as I am not doing either at the moment. That means most sellers are not going to say asking price or forget it. If a seller says that, I would think they aren't serious sellers. It is true some sellers offer their place at a fantasy price they don't expect to ever get, but would be glad to sell if they got it. Those people aren't real sellers. Personally if I was buying I wouldn't go near units priced ridiculously, waste of my time as a buyer. Buyers and sellers really do need to do some homework to figure out values here or they are operating in the dark.

It's a horrific cliche, but really I think this applies to even this market. Price real estate intelligently and it will sell. That's based on the market, not on fantasies. Right now in the US they are almost giving away real estate, that's the market in action (unemployment, recession, plus a huge market glut of bank owned foreclosures and short sales).

As I said, find a genuine seller, then they will be reasonable.

As another good indicator that asking prices are much too high just look at what you would actually earn as a yield if you paid the asking price and rented the property out. By the time you've factored in void periods, a realistic rent, maintenance, transaction costs etc and potential tax the yields look very very low, not even close to the levels claimed by the agents Agents often claim 7% or so which would be acceptable for a developing country like Thailand. The truth though could be closer to 2-3%, which would be stupidly low. That itself should tell you a lot about Pattaya asking prices.

My own experience is I did obtain a 40% discount from the asking price on a property but concluded the price was still too high. I had the money, the cost would have been loose change to me, but it just wasn't worth it.

If you want better value property then perhaps try bangkok, because sellers in Pattaya are mostly living ion lala land and because the quality of construction may be better in Bangkok.

But the most convincing evidence showing Pattaya property is massively over priced is that thne transaction volume in the resale market is extremely low and properties remain on the market for years often without a single viewing. That ought to tell you something. And for those suckers falling for the off plan sales person's hype, remember that was is off plan today will become resale tomorrow.

There clearly must be something very odd about any property market where places stay on sale for years on end. This just isnt normal.

I think that the entire condo market in Pattaya is warped by the large percentage of people who own many units, and who have no real motive for selling them because they cost relatively little to own (no property taxes) and they dont need the money and couldnt get any real return anywhere else anyway. So if you dont need the cash or the income, you may as well just keep the condo on the market at a high price and hope that a farang pigeon will land on your balcony one day, and perhaps get some rental income in the meantime as well. And that is exactly what the owners here are doing.

And in the end you only need to compare the cost of a house with the cost of a condo. It is all very out of kilter. Most condo prices need to drop perhaps 30-40% to be at any sort of sensible level. And the proof is that many units sold are only sold at a big discount on average asking prices. All the ones I have seen recently have been in this group.

I am prepared to pay perhaps 20-30% below average asking prices for a reasonable unit that I could live in indefinitely, on the assumption that if other all units drop to a reasonable price in a "crash" I wont actually lose very much.

I completely agree that asking prices are much too high. As far as how much thats hard to say. I would say they are over priced by a minimum of 30-40% on average.

if bidding remember this is not London, Singapore or even Bangkok. Where there is a liquid market with frequent transactions it is easier to estimate a "fair value". Here, the asking price is often the owner's fantasy and unless that owner needs the money immediately then there will be no reasonable negotiation.

To discover whether the owner is reasonable or not you need to be prepared to offer vastly less than he is asking, far more aggressively than you would in a normal market. That may mean offering just 50% of the asking price. Or, if that asking price is particuliarly stupid, it could be just 30%. The price you pay must be based on its fair price, not the inflated asking price. (Its not the duty of the buyer to make the seller rich and also don't think the agent is supposed to be your friend). If the owner says no to your offer then fine, leave it, walk away.

But if he is a genuine seller then he should move to some extent etc. If not then why waste your money and have to hold for the next 20 years to have any chance of getting your money back?

Maybe the best analogy is to buying a T-shirt from one of the stalls here. You say, "how much" and he says 600 Baht. You ask for his best price, he says 300. You offer 150 and he won't budge. If you want the shirt you need to pay a bit more so you say 200 and he agrees. Deal done, both sides happy. You just paid a third of his ludicrous asking price, he made a fair profit.

This Suthep <expletive deleted> should learn to respect his betters. Look at the state of Thailand! It is is corrupt, dirty, utterly dependent on tourism and other forms of low skill wage slavery. The country is devoid of involvement in any kind of advanced business at all. Unlike much of Asia, Thailand has been left behind by the rest of the Asian growth story. Are people like this <expletive deleted> getting upperty because they think this is Asia's time now? If so, he better think twice because Thailand isn't part of the success story, at best it has benefited by association but basically hasn't advanced at all.

So Suthep, just so you know, i don't respect you. In fact, I doubt many people, Thai, farang or Asian, respect you.

I won't say "I don't respect Thai's" because Im not an ignorant little racist. I will, as I said, just leave it at saying i don't respect YOU.

The vast majority of property transactions in Pattaya are for off plan, new build projects. In fact, it is almost impossible to sell a "used" condo or house. The reason for this is that owners are extremely unrealistic. But even if they were being realistic they would need to ask for considerably higher than they paid because transaction costs (taxes and agents fees) are very high, in order to breakeven. What this means is that if your plan is to buy to make a profit then you need to buy off plan and then flip very quickly. The days of rampant price increases are well behind us so that chance of a making a quick buck is now very low. So unless you really think you've found your dream property, think very carefully before buying as you may well be stuck with the property forever.

Now, this picture may change if you are buying to rent out, but then you will need good knowledge of which areas and what kind of properties are easy to rent for a good price and what your expenses are going to be over time.

I had been planning to buy but changed my mind for several reasons. One is that the quality of construction here seems to be shockingly poor. Walls are paper thin, materials are cheap and nasty, designs are plain boring, furnishing where provided always looks cheap and ugly, the list goes on. Add to that, a lot of what I was told, like sizes etc turned out to be "inaccurate" so that I have developed a real trust issue in handing over money to the spivs that seem to dominate the business here.

Buyer beware, as they say, but times that sentiment by a thousand over here, unless you want to join the ranks of the idiot foreigners that regret falling for the hype.

RULES

I have been coming to Pattaya for about 10 years now and have managed to stay out of trouble, despite the nature of the place, the nature of the workers and the kind of foreigners we often get here. My rules for avoiding trouble are currently 1. don't go to Walking Street 2. don't rent jet skis 3. don't rent cars or motorbikes 4. avoid Thai men 5. avoid any Thai's who are drunk or druggy types 6. get one drink at a time, check the bill every time, never drink in a place where they keep the bill at the bar 7. never order a drink without first knowing the price 8. never lend or borrow money 9. never become "entrenched", always be an "outsider", albeit a friendly and polite one 10. never flaunt wealth or money 11. use your hotel safe deposit box 12. in the event of a dispute over money, be willing to lose and never return to that place, if you follow ther basic rules the amounts won't be large 13. trust your instincts

Maybe other people have some suggestions to add.

Apart from that I have a good time, I just think there are certain places and things that people do that raise the risks of being attacked, robbed or cheated so avoid those places and don't do those things. We may feel we should be able to go where we want and do what we want as long as it is reasonable but thats naive. A lot of the people in Pattaya, the ones in these "bad" places can't be trusted to be reasonable anymore than a dangerous dog that bites can be trusted to behave if you treat it nicely...its a dangerous dog and it bites so keep your distance...

I looked at a few condos about 9 months ago and have quite a lot of cash (well over 150 million baht, in various currencies).

But although the condos I saw would have been easily affordable to me, I didnt consider them good value for money or wise investments. Quite the opposite in fact. I though they were tacky, horribly designed, very poorly constructed and quite honestly more of a liability than an asset in terms of an investment. There wasn't a single one I would want to have lived in.

One I saw that was still being built had lots of gaps between the bricks in its walls. These walls will be plastered or concreted over but it was obvious the quality of construction was awful. A falang owned the construction company and I was promised all kinds of things about "British standards" etc etc by the sales persson. But I imagine buyers are just suckers making a semi ganster semi conman immensely rich. How many stupid Brits, Russians, Australians etc have bought this crap? Even a Russian money launderer would surely think twice about the complete sh*t on offer in this place?

This story was repeated in all that I saw.

Some falang seem to think if prices are less than in London, say, then they are getting good value. But that is nonsense. Thailand isn't England, it isn't the US, it isn't Singapore. In fact, it isn't even Greece! It is a 2nd world country bordering on 3rd world. It is politically unstable, its infrastructure is barely functional (look at the roads, the drainage systems, the utilities, the internet services), the police are basically a mafia and there is no rule of law. Further, falang have no rights whatsoever. If you get cheated out of what you paid for your condo then forget justice and compensation. You are more likely to get beaten up or even killed if you complain.

No, prices in Thailand should be a 10th, at best, of what they are in, say, Singapore or London. But looking at Pattaya for example, prices are actually often much higher than that, they are sometimes even on a par with these places, especially for the so called "high end" developments.

Good luck to anyone who has bought, you are going to need it. My guess is that most who have bought in the last 5 years will never ever be able to get their money back. There is too much supply, the deterioration in built property is too fast and Thailand is descending into the dark ages.

That last bit about doing English breakfasts killed it for me...any Italian resto doing stuff like that can't be taken seriously.

I have to agree with you on this one.

What about Italian breakfast? Don't Italians eat breakfast?

In fact, no, Italians dont eat breakfast as they don't like it. Some eat a full English breakfast as its much better. So it doesnt surprise me to find an Italian restaurant serving an English breakfast. They do exacly the same in Italy.

This man was conned, thats why he objected to paying 150 baht and offered a still ludicrous 100 baht. I am astonished at many of the replies here, which assume once you've made a deal you are not allowed to back out and if you do then you deserve to be severely beaten, who knows, maybe even killed. If you agree to a deal its generally assumed to be in good faith, not a con. If it turns out be a con, backing out is perfectly reasonable.

This attutude that many falang seem to have that whenever another falang is assaulted that they asked for it is ignorant and stupid, pure and simple.

Personally I don't have any interest in going to Phuket and will not ever go there, for many reasons. It amazes me that many people do continue to go there, I suppose there just isn't enough publicity of this kind. There should be more programs of the kind that showed the jet ski scam and maffia. And if the Thai's dont like that then tough. And if they lose revenue, tough. If Thai politicians dont like it, thats tough too.

It appears that Thailand understands nothing about what civilised and honest behaviour is. The only way to teach them is through not giving them our money or force. We have the choice to not visit and give them our money at least even if in their country and outnumbered by viscous thugs we are not in a position to meet force with force, however much these "people" deserve that. With these tuk tuk drivers and any other thugs in Thailand, we appear to be dealing with people who are really only semi human, almost a mix of human and monkey when it comes to their level of intellect. Visiting these areas of Thailand almost reminds me of visiting a zoo or a place for wild animals which would be a foolish thing to do without all of the necessary precautions.

Like half of the crap sold in Thailand, the tailors are another con. I bought a few pieces from them, basically wore them once ir twice, continued to use the trousers for while, in the end just threw them away. Its much cheaper in the long run to pay 5 times more for an off the peg suit in Regents Street.

Ever wondered why these shops stay open forever despite seemingly having so few custoners? Well, the only explanation I can think of is that they make a lot more from selling each suit from the few suckers they rope in than you think. Thats cos they sell you total crap. And in case you think you will get away with just making a small downpayment and walking away if the quality or fit is dissappointing, forget it. There are a lot of these guys and their touts are thugs and you will either get beaten to a pulp before being forced to pay or forced to pay by their friends at the police station.

Best advice, ignore these cockroaches, then maybe they will go back home to the sewers they crawled out of.