dbrenn

I'm really grateful for all the good observations and advice I've been receiving. Thank you all. I'm particularly moved by the observation that life is unpredictable and we'd best grab whatever opportunities we can whenever they appear. Opposing this sound advice in this particular instance is the fact that life IS unpredictable, and anyone holding permanent residency losses it forever if he doesn't return to the Kingdom at least once every 365 days. So once the PR holder returns to his homeland, he has to return here like clockwork come sickness, health, accidents, and surprises, or else the whole concept falls apart. Unless he keeps up his "reverse border runs" forever, he really doesn't have the reassurance that he can always return. That's the single largest point against spending so much for the PR so far as I'm concerned.

I'm still on the fence about all this, though all your good advice has inched me a little closer to springing for the huge cost even if my employer doesn't see any benefit to stepping up to the plate. Thank you again.

Look on the bright side - PR in Thailand only requires only that you have a short holiday here every year, so as to renew your re-entry permit if you are living overseas.

Contrast that with Australian PR, which I got as an independent skilled migrant while living here in 2004. The Aussies require that you spend two out of every five years in Australia to maintain your PR. This rule eventually forced me to move to Australia in 2008, as time was running out, so reluctant was I to lose the Oz PR that I had gone to such trouble to get. At first, I hated the place, having spent 20 years in Thailand. It felt like part of my soul had been ripped out. Once I got used to it, however, I fell in love with it, and have been missing Australia in many ways ever since I came back here to work. Australia is a grand and beautiful country, with a healthy and wholesome lifestyle, that cured many of the bad habits that I had acquired since moving to Thailand as a young man. Bangkok, on the other hand, is a God-forsaken dump by most sensible measures of comparison, once one reaches middle age.

Even when I left Australia to come and work over here, I kept my options open, becoming an Australian citizen while over there, the wife too, so we can go back there any time we please, a right that stays with us until the day that we die.

Opportunities are few and far between, so never burn bridges. The money that you spend on your PR will soon be forgotten about, whereas the regret at losing an opportunity may well stay with you forever.

The present govt.of Aust are putting through new laws concerning dual citizenship.They can revoke your citizenship for any reason they deem fit and this task is left up to the minister,no judicial overview.The right to die as an Ozzy is not in your hands.

Eh? Along with places like the UK, they are talking about revoking citizenships for dual national people who are convicted of terrorism, which is quite reasonable and just as far as I an see.

I don't how drawing attention to such an extreme set of circumstances affects that huge majority of peaceful people who migrate to Australia. It's as irrelevant to this topic as saying something blatantly obvious like "Don;t take your freedom for granted in Australia. If you commit mass murder, they won't let you walk the streets any more".

He's too dull. He'd spoil the party atmosphere.

I'm really grateful for all the good observations and advice I've been receiving. Thank you all. I'm particularly moved by the observation that life is unpredictable and we'd best grab whatever opportunities we can whenever they appear. Opposing this sound advice in this particular instance is the fact that life IS unpredictable, and anyone holding permanent residency losses it forever if he doesn't return to the Kingdom at least once every 365 days. So once the PR holder returns to his homeland, he has to return here like clockwork come sickness, health, accidents, and surprises, or else the whole concept falls apart. Unless he keeps up his "reverse border runs" forever, he really doesn't have the reassurance that he can always return. That's the single largest point against spending so much for the PR so far as I'm concerned.

I'm still on the fence about all this, though all your good advice has inched me a little closer to springing for the huge cost even if my employer doesn't see any benefit to stepping up to the plate. Thank you again.

Look on the bright side - PR in Thailand only requires only that you have a short holiday here every year, so as to renew your re-entry permit if you are living overseas.

Contrast that with Australian PR, which I got as an independent skilled migrant while living here in 2004. The Aussies require that you spend two out of every five years in Australia to maintain your PR. This rule eventually forced me to move to Australia in 2008, as time was running out, so reluctant was I to lose the Oz PR that I had gone to such trouble to get. At first, I hated the place, having spent 20 years in Thailand. It felt like part of my soul had been ripped out. Once I got used to it, however, I fell in love with it, and have been missing Australia in many ways ever since I came back here to work. Australia is a grand and beautiful country, with a healthy and wholesome lifestyle, that cured many of the bad habits that I had acquired since moving to Thailand as a young man. Bangkok, on the other hand, is a God-forsaken dump by most sensible measures of comparison, once one reaches middle age.

Even when I left Australia to come and work over here, I kept my options open, becoming an Australian citizen while over there, the wife too, so we can go back there any time we please, a right that stays with us until the day that we die.

Opportunities are few and far between, so never burn bridges. The money that you spend on your PR will soon be forgotten about, whereas the regret at losing an opportunity may well stay with you forever.

If you plan to stay in Thailand long term, you should take the opportunity to get your PR.

Visa rules get tougher all the time, and PR gives you peace of mind in never having to worry about getting visas again.

While the OP's circumstances may have changed, life has a funny habit of changing them again, making us wish we took advantage of an opportunity at one time in the past..

Right - the OP should take whatever opportunities come his way, so as to keep his options open in the future.

Whether or not he chooses to live or work here in future, he'll always have the reassuring thought that Thailand is a country where he can always move to whenever he pleases, with no bureaucratic hurdles to doing so.

I'd have regretted not taking my PR, even though it was a hassle at the time.

If you plan to stay in Thailand long term, you should take the opportunity to get your PR.

Visa rules get tougher all the time, and PR gives you peace of mind in never having to worry about getting visas again.

I wear spectacles in Thailand that I bought in the UK.

When I am in the UK, the lenses go quite dark in sunlight.

However when I am in Thailand, they do not darken.

A friend also has found the same with his spectacles.

Why do they not darken here?

Is it because the sun is more overhead?

Photochromic lenses work better at low temperatures.

They did come around my residence to ask about me in my case, so the people living there should at least know who you are and what to say.

I did get a visit from the Interior Ministry, at a rented house where I was living at the time. Because I was renting, I was not on the tabien bahn, hence I asked a friend to help out in the way that I described.

As you say, so long as the home owner can vouch for you, living away from your tabien bahn address is no big issue - Thais do it all the time, and the MoE didn't care. I told the MoE people that I was renting a place away from my registered address that was convenient for my work, and that I had to rent because I did not have the right to buy my own house at the time, which was one of the reasons why I wanted Thai nationality ....

This is in relation to applying for citizenship in Chiang Mai and possibly other areas besides Bangkok.

I went to the ministry of Interior branch office here in Chiang Mai in hopes of getting some inside information about the process.

Here is what I got:

Besides females married to a Thai and hill tribes applying for citizenship, only one person recently got citizenship out of the hundreds of applications on file. This person applied about 8 years ago and just got citizenship recently.

The approval process is slightly different in the provinces.

1. The police send an applicant's information (after it has been vetted and investigated) to the local interior ministry office here in Chiang Mai and it is reviewed by a committee.

2. The committee then sends back the application to the police, either for more info, rejected or approved.

3. If locally approved, the police then sends this application to the interior ministry in Bangkok to be reviewed, approved and signed by the interior minister.

The real problem that I saw was that although hundreds of applications had been filed at police special branches in Chiang Mai (according to my visit there 2 years ago), very few had reached the local committee for review. The guy at the interior ministry showed me some applications, it seemed to be under 10.

So for some reason, the local police special branches are refusing to send applications to the local interior ministry.

At some point I will need to go back to the Chiang Mai special branches police office and try to find out the reason for this. Is it:

a. Money under the table is required to get the process working, this is likely as a friend of mine had to pay 1 million baht to get his citizenship down south.

b. There is a policy to reject most types of applications off hand even if they meet the criteria.

c. Connections are necessary to get the process moving.

More than likely all of the above apply.

I'd change my address to a Bangkok tabien bahn and reapply there if I were you.

The process is difficult enough and adding extra steps, from what you have described, sets your application up for the failure of indefinite limbo.

Sounds like good advice, would I have a problem if they checked up on me and found out that I don't actually live in bkk?

Did they come around to ask your neighbors etc?

I did just that - not being a property owner I was registered on the Bangkok tabien bahn of a friend. They never checked to see whether I actually lived there, and even if they had checked my friend would have told them that I lived there but was away on business.

When I tried to apply the first time, my tabien bahn was in Chiang Rai and was told to apply there. I figured that it would be impossible, so I moved my tabien bahn to Bangkok.

IMHO, I think this story has absolutely nothing to do with the OP but was a power play between the junior officer and the supervisor, the OP just happened to be caught in the middle

Regardless, the OP got his visa and he can now curse the bureaucracy in private, not having anything to worry about for another year.

Well done to the OP for taking the high ground and showing restraint.

As hard as it is to keep your cool with the bureaucracy here, it is essential that you do or they will give you an even harder time.

This is in relation to applying for citizenship in Chiang Mai and possibly other areas besides Bangkok.

I went to the ministry of Interior branch office here in Chiang Mai in hopes of getting some inside information about the process.

Here is what I got:

Besides females married to a Thai and hill tribes applying for citizenship, only one person recently got citizenship out of the hundreds of applications on file. This person applied about 8 years ago and just got citizenship recently.

The approval process is slightly different in the provinces.

1. The police send an applicant's information (after it has been vetted and investigated) to the local interior ministry office here in Chiang Mai and it is reviewed by a committee.

2. The committee then sends back the application to the police, either for more info, rejected or approved.

3. If locally approved, the police then sends this application to the interior ministry in Bangkok to be reviewed, approved and signed by the interior minister.

The real problem that I saw was that although hundreds of applications had been filed at police special branches in Chiang Mai (according to my visit there 2 years ago), very few had reached the local committee for review. The guy at the interior ministry showed me some applications, it seemed to be under 10.

So for some reason, the local police special branches are refusing to send applications to the local interior ministry.

At some point I will need to go back to the Chiang Mai special branches police office and try to find out the reason for this. Is it:

a. Money under the table is required to get the process working, this is likely as a friend of mine had to pay 1 million baht to get his citizenship down south.

b. There is a policy to reject most types of applications off hand even if they meet the criteria.

c. Connections are necessary to get the process moving.

More than likely all of the above apply.

I'd change my address to a Bangkok tabien bahn and reapply there if I were you.

The process is difficult enough and adding extra steps, from what you have described, sets your application up for the failure of indefinite limbo.

Sick of hearing all this eco-zealotry and related nonsense about climate change.

Just another way to keep the peasants under control.

The Australian Thai FTA makes specific mention of a work permit not being required of Australian business people on temporary entry, as follows;

• Thailand will not require a work permit for Australian citizens who are business visitors conducting business meetings in Thailand for up to 15 days, and up to 90 days for APEC Travel Card Holders.

http://dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/tafta/Pages/key-outcomes-of-the-thailand-australia-free-trade-agreement.aspx

The main condition in meeting the criteria is not receiving remuneration in Thailand. There are a couple of other conditions but I recall that they aren't very onerous. Perhaps in the future his Thai income could be diverted via another regional office and job function tailored to suit the exact wording of the FTA. That way no need for visa or work permit.

Perhaps the nature of the job makes that impossible. Just a thought.

Thanks, but as I've said above, the person in question receives a small remuneration in Thailand and spends periods here actually working.

He will need to make sure that he has paid his taxes for a salary equal to 50,000 baht per month. It doesn't matter if his salary was less than this, a good accountant will be able to doctor this up. I always renew my non-b in Thailand through my lawyer. I have also done this outside of Thailand and found the easiest place to do it was in KL. Drop off in the morning day 1 and pick up in the afternoon day 2. If he is travelling to Thailand, he could stop at KL on the way through and do visa there. Malaysian airlines stop here so do a few others (shouldn't cost anymore in airfare tickets to go Australia - KL and then KL-Thailand, at least it didn't for me when I stopped there last).

Please go back and read the OP.

He is wanting to get a multiple entry non-b visa for business purposes. He is not working here so has no work permit.

FYI KL stopped dong multiple entry non-b's if you had a work permit some time ago. They would not do one without a work permit. I am not ever sure a single entry can be obtained there now.

Sorry if I wasn't clear UJ - he is a regional manager, and does spend time a very limited amount of time actually working here, so he does have a work permit. The salary he gets paid here is too small for the yearly in-country extensions, hence he needs a non-B multi entry.

Is he from Australia? The form B is normally only needed for people from these countries.

"FORMB only for nationals of: Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Cambodia, China, Cuba, Egypt, India, Iraq, Iran, Kosovo, Laos, Lebanon, Libya, Nepal, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Palestine, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria, Vietnam and Yemen; and Travel Document holder."

If he is from Australia he should perhaps contact one of the honorary consulates in Melbourne, Perth, Hobart or Adelaide to see what they say.

Ubonjoe, although my experience is a tad dated ( 2013 ), the Adelaide consulate told me that procedures then had changed and consulates could not provide other than download links for (retirement ) visa.

Subsequently there was a bit of an inhouse ruckus in Thailand, when 'visa blanks' had gone missing on a large scale.

Rob

That's the same as what we were told by the staff at the Sydney consulate. Only the Thai Embassy in Canberra can issue a multi entry non immigrant B visa. Recent rule change means that no consulate can do this any more.

What was last year a 15 minute wait at the Brisbane consulate is now a convoluted process that requires wads of supporting documents (even using form A).

With the process taking up to 21 days, during which time they hang on to your passport, many frequent business guests here will be hard hit.

Can he qualify for an APEC card? That allows unlimited 90 day entries for the 3 year life of the card.

He does have an APEC card which would allow 3 month entries as you correctly point out.

However, he also holds a work permit here, so needs a non B to support that. He works part time and the Thai part of his salary is too low for the yearly extensions on his existing non B.

Is he from Australia? The form B is normally only needed for people from these countries.

"FORMB only for nationals of: Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Cambodia, China, Cuba, Egypt, India, Iraq, Iran, Kosovo, Laos, Lebanon, Libya, Nepal, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Palestine, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria, Vietnam and Yemen; and Travel Document holder."

If he is from Australia he should perhaps contact one of the honorary consulates in Melbourne, Perth, Hobart or Adelaide to see what they say.

Ubonjoe, although my experience is a tad dated ( 2013 ), the Adelaide consulate told me that procedures then had changed and consulates could not provide other than download links for (retirement ) visa.

Subsequently there was a bit of an inhouse ruckus in Thailand, when 'visa blanks' had gone missing on a large scale.

Rob

That's the same as what we were told by the staff at the Sydney consulate. Only the Thai Embassy in Canberra can issue a multi entry non immigrant B visa. Recent rule change means that no consulate can do this any more.

What was last year a 15 minute wait at the Brisbane consulate is now a convoluted process that requires wads of supporting documents (even using form A).

With the process taking up to 21 days, during which time they hang on to your passport, many frequent business guests here will be hard hit.

Is he from Australia? The form B is normally only needed for people from these countries.

"FORMB only for nationals of: Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Cambodia, China, Cuba, Egypt, India, Iraq, Iran, Kosovo, Laos, Lebanon, Libya, Nepal, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Palestine, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria, Vietnam and Yemen; and Travel Document holder."

If he is from Australia he should perhaps contact one of the honorary consulates in Melbourne, Perth, Hobart or Adelaide to see what they say.

Thanks UJ. He is Australian born and bred. He told me that an Australian guy at the Sydney consulate told him of the rules.

That said, I suspect that you are right, and that he has been pointed to the wrong application form. As you say, the Form B that he was pointed to has the header:

"FORM B only for nationals of: Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Cambodia, China, Cuba, Egypt, India, Iraq, Iran, Kosovo, Laos, Lebanon, Libya, Nepal, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Palestine, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria, Vietnam and Yemen; and Travel Document holder.

Form A is slightly less onerous.

I've advised him to check again ...

One of our managers who visits Thailand regularly is trying to renew his one year multi entry non-imm B visa in Oz. There are some recent changes:

1) The Brisbane consulate has closed down

2) The Sydney consulate told him that all non-B applications must now be submitted to the Royal Thai Embassy in Canberra, and that consulates can no longer issue this type of visa

3) The Canberra Embassy directed hum to this new (highly onerous) application form http://canberra.thaiembassy.org/doc/form/Visa-form%20B%20(Canberra)171214.pdf

4) He was also told that the Embassy refuses applications that have incomplete supporting documentation, and that the application can take up to 21 business days to approve, while they hang on to his passport

Seriously, the application form must be completed four times by hand, and copies are not accepted.

He should just shut the media down. They can't say anything or ask anything anyway. It's the right thing to do yo let him alone to o his job. He doesn't need governance an the Thai people don't nee or want it.

Just shutdown the entire network communications of Thailand for eternity, problem solved....

Agreed. The Internet is an outside interference, nothing more than a plot by the wicked West.

Access to the Internet should be reserved exclusively for the 'good people'. The buffalo proles would be much happier and much more 'Thai' without it.

No worries. The junta will make it rain. They can do anything.

It is my understanding that you need to maintain your work permit throughout the whole process. It is one of the criteria for qualifying. That is, without one you cease to qualify. Having said that, I would check with SB to see whether this has changed.

SB will likely tell you that you need to maintain your WP throughout the whole process, as they did to me, which I did even when it meant staying in a job I hated.

That said, the only two times that I was asked to produce my work permit were when I applied and when I was interviewed at the IM. In retrospect, I probably could have given up my WP much earlier, following the IM interview, unless there was 'behind the scenes' checking by SB, directly to the Labour Department, which seems unlikely or they would not need to see your physical work permit in the first place.

Had I known then when I know now, I'd have not suffered the job I had at the time as long as I did

This is part of a response I recently received from the DoH

More generally, anyone who lives outside this country for more than six months is no longer automatically entitled to free NHS hospital treatment. If the person is away on, for example, a one-off extended holiday, then they will continue to be fully entitled to free hospital treatment as soon as they return to live permanently in the UK. They will then be ordinarily resident again.

Whilst the Department is aware that many UK nationals living overseas still consider themselves to be UK residents, sometimes even maintaining accommodation here, someone who regularly and routinely spends the majority of each year settled in a residence outside the UK cannot legitimately be considered as being ordinarily resident here.

Right - new rule. Only residents of the UK have access to the NHS. Expatriates no longer qualify.

The price of the visa is just the start

What does that mean exactly?

Its been going up for years.

Oh you mean it's nothing the cost because they can work and get Medicare? True.

Just a joke. Lighten up

Importing my Thai GF to Oz was worth it to me, but the I've certainly spent a lot more money than the price of the visa.

In addition to the right to work and Medicare, they also get 500 hours of free English lessons, so the visa is not bad value at all in the scheme of things.

of course.

But just for the record, although I am not a fan of the current Junta, I can honestly state here that I feel more confident in the honesty of the current PM than ANY elected or unelected Thai politician before him.

How so? Because of what you read in the (censored) press?