dbrenn

Sorry if it's too deep for you BkkJames, but it just seems patently obvious to me that if you treat someone like something to be used and then thrown away, easily replaced, then the only people you will attract are the ones who figure its ok to take you for whatever they can get.

Correct.

In Thailand, as in any other country, a relationship that goes the distance involves sharing. If one partner through good fortune has far more wealth than the other, it is unreasonable for the richer partner to pretend to be a pauper and treat his mate as such, as this will be viewed as lack of commitment and as conservation of assets to keep options open for future conquests. In the western world, you don't see a man who earns much more than his wife expect her to remain poor either, and vice versa.

The girl and her family in this case obviously think that the OP is using his poorer partner temporarily, and is not willing to invite her into his life, with all the sacrifices that might entail. The lady withdrawing and being perpetually busy means that she is about to give up on the OP and dump him.

To put it bluntly, you can only drink the milk for so long before you are expected to buy the cow. In Thailand this period of time before a man is expected to make a commitment is generally shorter than in the west, particularly at the lower end of the socio-economic scale, and especially if the relationship is sexual. Now if the OP doesn't like the idea of hitching up with a girl who has a child, or if he just doesn't like her enough, then he should end it rather than stringing out the agony.

... judging by recent newspaper reports ...

That is one of the problems with this thread...

TH

I think you hit the nail on the head. The doom and gloom that we read in the newspapers might make money for the media companies, but it is generating a pessimism that is accelerating the problem. The value of the economy, and the value of the assets it contains, is totally dependent on the perception of the people who buy and sell. Think it is bad, and it will be, and vice versa.

Life goes on - OK we might not have as much as we did before, we might have to change our lifestyles and depend less on borrowed wealth, but humanity will survive.

How do you encourage a person to quit smoking that has been smoking since the age of 16?

I started smoking at 17, stopped at 32, started again at 40 and stopped 7 months ago. Everyone is different, but what worked for me:

1) It takes several attempts to stop, but never give up

2) Stop when you are in a good mood

3) Stop when you have a cold or bad cough following a cold

4) Cold turkey worked best for me - nicotine substitutes just prolonged the pain

5) Bear in mind that nicotine withdrawal is not that bad, peaking at 2 days and subsiding after 4 days. The psycholgical habit of reaching out for a cigarette in all the usual situations is harder to break

6) Once you stop, always remember that just one puff on one cigarette or anything containing nicotine will start you again. After 8 years off them, that's all it took to start me on a slippery slope that ended up with a cigarette in the morning

7) I love smoking, but I know that it will kill me. If I started now, I don't think I would ever be able to stop again

Good luck. Your life will be better without tobacco, and after a while you will forget about it, bar the odd pang that is easily controlled.

Citizenship is a far "bigger" issue - its your life, your future, quite possible your childrens future and culturale heritage - this last point was a big point (the major point) in deciding to settle in Thailand and bring the kids up (have never though much of the UK education system, and 60million plus folk cramped into terraced houses on a cold/wet island in the North Atlantic has never held much appeal for me!)

The citizenship issues for me have always been these sorts of things. It suprizes me when folk reply to the citizenship question citing no WP and no visa requirement as been advantages. Its a far bigger issue.

I agree with that.

Citizenship is about accepting Thailand and calling it your home, warts and all. Becoming a Thai citizen conferred a feeling of belonging quite apart from the feeling I got when I was granted PR. Although my original motive for applying to be a Thai was freedom from administrative restrictions, I did feel very differently about Thailand as a whole after I became a citizen. Thailand feels much more like home to me and I don't often ctiticise it, unlike before.

Samran, I have looked up Section 14 of the original 1965 Nationality Act prior to the 1992 amendments about the rights/obligations of dual national children using the Council of State references you provided. The wording seems identical to the current version 3 of the 1992 amendments where it provided for dual children to renounce their Thai nationality but it went on to say that, if they didn't do this and there was evidence that they had retained their father's nationality, the minister was empowered to grant permission for them to keep their Thai nationality, except in circumstances where the father's nation was at war with Thailand, in which case Thai nationality was to be revoked. This seems fairly generous and in fact seemed, as is the case today, to encourage dual nationals not to renounce Thai nationality, unless they needed to do so in order to retain another nationality. (The war case was understandable in the context of the original 1965 Act which allowed any one born in the Kingdom, theoretically even to illegal alien parents, to acquire Thai nationality prior to the 1972 addition of Section 7 bis and that war with Thailand's neighbours was very possible at the time.) It is not clear that this permission for those who were caught out was to be automatic but it seems to acknowledge that dual nationality was acceptable for these people, except in case of war. Although there may well be others, the short lived version 2 of the 1992 amendments is the only place in the various versions of the 1965 Act I can find where it was absolutely unequivocal that dual nationality was not acceptable.

I note that the fee of 5,000 baht for an application for Thai nationality has not been increased since 1965 when it must have been over US$200 and quite a lot of money in 1965 dollars. It is odd that the fee wasn't increased in the 1992 amendments. Since the late 90s the ministry has increased the minimum salary for applicants in its internal regulations from 7,000 baht to 80,000 baht and the fees for PR have also gone up significantly. The nationality application fee, unchanged for 44 years, can perhaps be regarded as one of the few bargains left in Thailand. Male PRs and foreign women married to Thais should hurry up and apply before it goes up.

I could never understand the fees either. When compared with the PR fees, the application fee for Thai citizenship is incredibly cheap - the price of a night out for two in a decent restaurant.

Like you say, it may not be long before someone realises this and increases the application fee by countless multiples. Yet another reason why I can't understand why people sit on PR and don't go the final step. Now I think of it, in all my 18 years in Thailand I only met personally five other naturalised citizens. All the PR's I met seem to have this fixed idea that citizenship is 'impossible' or 'only given to the extremely rich or influential', which is certainly not the case.

I am a director of my company and have a work permit.

I have decided i don't want to work anymore so am going to give up the permit. Is there any reason to keep it if i am not working.

For example, do i need a work permit to own my car in my name? when i bought it they asked for a copy of it.

My golf membership asked to see my permit when i joined.Does anyone have any other uses for a work permit?

Ta

You usually need a work permit when applying for credit, like credit cards, car loans, post paid mobile, etc

Hand carry in a few at a time. Should have no problem. If a tax is requested by the custom at the airport, you know what to do.

Bad advice - if you get caught smuggling the fines can be very heavy and they don't always accept an 'on-the-spot' fine with no receipt.

You say you have already been sending her 1,000 's to pay for texting , but you are not Efing stupid enough to send money for her children , hope you are being truthfull here , mmmmmmm .

Yes I sent her some photos with a 1000 note in for text and a couple of letters and each time a 1000 in so no regular payments

Women divorce their husbands but seldom abandon their children.

Women with kids are a package deal, and if you pair up with such a woman then you have to commit to her kids too. The longer you stay with her, the more likely you are to get hooked, and the harder it will be to leave.

If you don't want to end up supporting her kids, all four of them, you should head for the exit now. Her ex will not be responsible for them once she remarries - you will.

A friend of mine recently got into this situation. Go to the Human Development Foundation, next to Cabbages and Condoms on Sukhumvit Soi 12 (not Soi 22). No questions asked - if the lady wants to terminate the pregnancy, she can, regardless of what the law says. Cost is 2000 Baht.

THai Nationality Act:

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

Note that the article says can revoke, it is not automaticaly revoked.

This also seems a rather redundant provision, as there is no automatic way of checking, unlike PR where it is obvious from your endorsement, .....

In any event keeping your name on a tabian baan should qualify as "having a domicile in Thailand."....

Agreed. I wonder what are the qualifications for residence in Thailand for the purposes of the Thai Nationality Act? For tax purposes 'residence' counts as being in the country for more that 180 days per year. For the purposes of PR, 'residence' is maintained even if the PR visits Thailand for a couple of days each year to renew his non-quota immigrant visa and endorsement.

My take on the Thai Nationality Act is that being on a Tabien Bahn would be enough, but who knows. In any case, the cancellation is not automatic, and requires the formation of a very senior level committee. Too much trouble for a mere mortal -- there would have to be a compelling reason at a very senior political level to go to that degree of trouble. In all my 18 years of living in Thailand I never heard of anyone having citizernship revoked for this reason.

Another question for Dbrenn or others who have been through the process. Is it both Special Branch and the Interior Ministry that come to visit your home and office or just the Interior Ministry (not counting any under cover visits by Special Branch)? Do the officials give you notice before the visits or do they just show up unannounced?

Only the Interior Ministry came to my house. I was given a few days notice of the time and date. Three of them came, and they wre quite informal and friendly.

So I guess you have to show your foreign passport to Thai Immigration on the way out as well as to the airline, if you are going to a country that Thais need a visa to. Don't they usually check that?

Once I was asked by immigration (in addition to the airline) to show my UK passport on the way out in addition to my Thai passport, to check whether I had the right to travel to the UK with no visa. Most times they don't bother. There is no secret that I have another nationality - when I applied for a Thai passport, they also wanted to see my UK passport.

The Act is rather ambivalent about dual nationality. It seems to imply that dual nationality is not quite OK ... may be a hang over from earlier versions of the Act ... keep their options open to easily get rid of some one who is viewed as a nuisance ...

"Section 20. A Committee shall be set up consisting of the Under Secretary of State for Interior as chairman, a representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Director-General of the Department of Administrative Affairs, the Director-General of the Police Department and the Director-General of the Public Prosecution Department as members, having the duty to consider the revocation of Thai nationality under Sections 16, 17(1) or 18, 19.

Where circumstances appear with respect to any person that his Thai nationality may be revoked, the competent official shall submit the latter for consideration of the Committee. After consideration, the Committee shall refer its opinion to the Minister for direction."

I wonder if it would take the committee as long to consider the case for revocation as it takes the ministry to consider citizenship applications.

What you say is probably true - they are keeping their options open on people who, having been granted citizenship, cause problems. As always, the advice here is to keep a low profile, work hard, and behave in a similar way as you did when you were applying for citizenship.

Having said that, I know a few very long term naturalised Thai citizens, people who are in business and have upset the locals on occasion. Nothing happened. There was never any question of having their rights curtailed or revoked, and they come and go with no fuss at all..

Let's face it, while the Thai Nationality Act is rather ambiguous and there may exist a tiny possibility that a naturalised Thai could conceivably lose his Thai citizenship, assembling a committee comprising the Interior Minister, the Foreign Minister, Chief of Police and all the others necessary for revocation of a citizenship under the Act would only be done under very exceptional circumstances. You would have to piss off someone very high up the food chain. This is Thailand, and if you don't fit in they will always find one way or another to get rid of you. Look what happened to Thaksin ..

The best way to communicate with the officials is to get a cell phone number and regularly call to follow up. They then stary calling you immediately they are aware of any news. It could be that they were doing the person who had a days notice a favour by making up the numbers at the last minute.

Dbrenn, I have been thinking about contacting the Interior Ministry to find out the status of my application but I do not want to be seen as a "pest". Did you contact the Interior Ministry people directly or was it your Special Branch contacts with whom you were liaising during the long wait?

Hi CJ. The most annoying aspect about the whole Thai citizenship application process is that the Interior Ministry is a black hole. Even the nice people at the Special Branch have no idea when an application will be signed by the Interior Minister, and I did not have any contacts that high up in the Interior ministry to help me out. The people at Special Branch did say that there is a degree of queue jumping at the Interior Ministry by those in the know, but that such people would have to have connections to the Interior minister himself or a similar level. Special Branch, it seems, have no influence over this, and are not able to lobby at this level.

It's very unsettling to not know if and when your application will progress through the Interior Minister, His Majesty, and back through the Interior Minister, but all you can do is sit it out. You are still a PR in the process.

When I did my citizenship interview last July there was no microphone for the singing part of the interview. I was simply asked to sing both songs in front of the four members of the interview panel. Other people awaiting their interviews were also present in the room but luckily were sitting behind me so I could not see their faces as I hit one wrong key after the next!

You got off lightly! When I did mine we were taken one by one into a small lecture theatre. There were two rows of seats around a large horeshoe shaped table, with the big guy sat at the back facing me, with a row all to hiimself. All his minions were seated along the two sides of the room and I was stood at the front.

Upon entering, I had to show my work permit, certificate of residence and alien registration book to the clerk on the door. Then they gave me a microphone so that the people at the back could hear. They asked me a few questions, then I sang the songs (rather out of tune), then the big guy thanked me and I left.

There were no other candidates watching me though ...

the law just states that five years residence, as evidenced by the red book, and three years' tax receipts are required, not that applicants should have worked and paid tax continuously since coming to Thailand.

a few days a month in Thailand and half the trips were in fact holidays. I was told I had the right to appeal but was advised by a lawyer that I would waste a lot of time and it might get worse, if I tried to fight it. Knowing what they are capable of doing on a whim has made me rather wary of the Revenue Dept.

There is no requirement to have a continuous unbroken employment record when applying for citizenship - I had changed jobs but I did have the three years' tax returns and a current work permit when I applied for citizenship.

Regards your tax assessment, your lawyer was wrong - I once had an unfair assessment, appealed it, and it was immediately reduced. The tax office tries it on sometimes, and what they are usually looking for is a bribe to reduce the amount ....

In another thread Chatette said that Special Branch sent under cover officers to investigate her which sounded rather intimidating but she didn't report any problems from them except that the guy set all the dogs in her soi off barking.

The Interior Ministry sent three people to my house. They were very nice and I took them to lunch.

Calling for interview with one day's notice could be a problem for many people, particularly, if the notice is sent by snail mail which many no longer check every day as it is now mainly bills and statements.

I had a couple of weeks' notice - agreed that one day would be rather inconvenient. The best way to communicate with the officials is to get a cell phone number and regularly call to follow up. They then stary calling you immediately they are aware of any news. It could be that they were doing the person who had a days notice a favour by making up the numbers at the last minute.

Do most naturalized Thais get visas when flying direct to countries Thai passports need visas for but their other passports don't?

You don't need visas. When travelling by air you swap passports in mid flight, leaving Thailand on your Thai passport and then using the passport of your original country to enter a country (that would normally impose visa restrictions on Thais) visa free. You show both passports when checking in so that the airline knows that you have a right to enter your destination country with no visa.

At land borders you use your Thai passport to enjoy visa free travel to places like Laos and Vietnam - you get a lot of funny looks, but I've never had a problem.

Section 19. The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalisation if it appears that:

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

I guess the minister really has to have it in for you though. Given that (I assume) that there is no other government officer who is entitled to strip you of your citizenship (in thailand it appears it really has to be the minister himself who makes the final call on granting/stripping of citizenship) then it is an unlikey occurance. I suspect this section of the act was put in as a potential 'gotcha' put there to get rid of really bad apples who managed to get Thai citizenship.

Right - they are never going to go to all that trouble. Besides, if you travel to Thailand on your Thai passport you are not 'making use of your former nationality' while in Thailand and under the juristiction of the Thai Nationality Act.

[...] he may have been at fault for claiming to have an unbroken employement record. I would not recommend applying for citizenship for anyone who has to misrepresent his past - like you say, they do check.

That makes sense. Other than making a false statement, though, does the application for citizenship have anything to with one's work record? In other words is a retired foreigner with PR still eligible to apply?

You do need to be working with tax receipts over three consecutive years running up to your application. Not necessary to be in thr same job - only that you have pais the tax and have a work permit both at the time of applying and when you appear at the Interior Ministry.

Applied Special Branch - May 2007

Papers Submitted by Special Branch to Interior Ministry - August 2007

Interior Ministry Interview - July 2008

Approval - Pending

The long wait is the most frustrating part. For a while it looks like things are progressing, then, after the Interior Ministry visit, everything just seems to stop while your aplication sits in the Interior Minister's inbox. Nothing you can do but wait - you will get a letter once he signs it, then another wait for His Majesty to sanction your application, and finally another wait for the Interior Minister to publish the results in the Interior Ministry notices (a book that is released from time to time, containing among other enacted laws a list of citizenship applicants including you). Then the special branch give you your certificate of naturalsation.

Rather frustrating, but all worth it in the end and you don't have to do anything more. The whole process took up about one working week of my time, so not too bad over three years.

Thai Royal Anthem

http://www.nationalanthems.us/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1096011874

That's the one - practice it in the cinema. The hardest part about applying for Thai citizenship is keeping a straight face when you are in front of the very sombre selection commitee, clutching a microphone and trying to sing in tune ...

One thing that might put off some PR holders is that you have to apply for citizenship to Special Branch and be investigated by them for subversive political or criminal activities.

They do check you out, but at no time did I ever get the impression that they were trying to catch me out. I'm not sure how your friend got all three years' tax receipts, given that he had not been working for two years. It seems to me that he was not eligible to apply and got caught out, and that he may have been at fault for claiming to have an unbroken employement record. I would not recommend applying for citizenship for anyone who has to misrepresent his past - like you say, they do check.

Another question that occurs to me is how high a salary they are really looking for and what size company do they think an applicant should be working for?

I did get the impression that they were looking for more than the minimum here. When I asked them how likely my application was to be successful, they did highlight the fact that I was on a good salary as something that would work in my favour. I think the same unwritten rule applies here as in PR - you should be comfortably over the minimum salary requirements. I was working for a large company at the time too, but I do know of people who got citizenship who were working for small companies,

Re documentation. How hard it is to get all of this? I heard that Immigration has got much tougher on PR applicants e.g. they now require Por Ngor Dor 91 or 90 notarized by the Revenue Dept and educational certficates notarized by embassies etc. The language test for PR has got harder too and now includes a panel interview with questions like "Describe your contribution to Thai society", whereas it was previously just a simple multiple choice test that applicants with little or no knowledge of Thai could pass. Does all of this now apply to citizenship applications too?

I did not have to get anything notarised - all I had to do was produce the originals for verification against the copies. Maybe they do the checks themselves. As in PR, they will only accept applications that are complete againt every point of the checklist with not a single item missing.

I've had PR for 4 years now and I have been definately considering Thai citizenship. I have lived and worked in the Kingdom for about 22 years, so conversational Thai is ok. I am learning the songs also. If my application is successful then do I forfeit my Uk basic State pension, which I would be due to receive in 8 years time, along with Uk Citizenship. Can you hold both Thai and Uk citizenship?, with your collection of passports you seem to imply that you can.

I am also concerned with the recent Thai government intiatives of raising taxes through property and inheritance tax. I have a nice condo here which I would like to pass onto my children. (British citizens, 2 working here , 1 in the Uk)

Another concern is also my wife's status who is Singaporean and who's current visa is based my work permit, renewable every 2 years.

1) No impact on your UK pension

2) No effect on your UK citizenship

3) Taxation rules are generally the same for foreigners and Thais

4) Your Singaporean wife, by virtue of her marriage to you (a Thai citizen) would be eligible for non-imm 'O' visa extensions, renewable in country. After 5 years, she would te be eligible to apply for Thai citizenship, bypassing PR as she has a Thai husband

Out of curiosity, what are the Thai language requirements for a grant of citizenship ?

My understanding is school grade 6 level competency (Prathom 6).

Not so - all you need is:

1) a working knowledge of the language - enough for general conversation, the same as for PR

2) the ability to sign your name in Thai (however scruffily)

and the reading thai/writing script standards ?

Not necessary. I can read, but there was no test and the officials fill in all the forms for you

Not so - all you need is:

1) a working knowledge of the language - enough for general conversation, the same as for PR

2) the ability to sign your name in Thai (however scruffily)

But singing the national anthem. I don't think I could sing my home countries. I hope they don't judge you on your ability to sing. I would never make it.

You don't need to be a Pavarotti - believe me. And you can read it from a sheet of paper so you don't even have to memorise it.

2) Those who are qualified for PR, may not know it, or are of the view that it is all too hard, when in fact it isn't. Alot of law firms who you may approach, may make out that it is a big song and dance to get PR (implied by the fees they charge), when it isn't, and with a bit of patience, it is probably easier and cheaper to get it yourself.

I may be insulting some good friends here, but my friends who do have PR, are 'nothing special' in terms of what they do and who they are. Bluntly, if they can get PR, then so should many others. It follows then, if you get to PR, then citizenship isn't an unrealistic goal, and quite simple to do yourself.

Hi Samran - What I found with both PR and Citizenship was that the processes were straighforward and not nearly as difficult as I thought they would be. The officials that I dealt with in both cases were very fair and kind to me, helping me to navigate the red tape.

My lawyer told me that PR was 'very hard' and that it would be 'very expensive' but that he could 'get it for me', advice which turned out to be complete rubbish once I had a go at doing it myself.

I think what you say is true - people either don't know that they are eligible, or assume that it is too hard to do. Even some friends of mine who are PR, and who would qualify for citizenship just can't be bothered going this final step, preferring instead to whinge about how few rights they have ..

I will be applying for PR soon. Eventually, if it makes sense, for TC aswell.

Could anyone tell me if there are any major 'western' countires that do not allow dual citizenship for people not living in their home country?

I know that the UK and Australia allows dual nationality. Not sure about the others though - you should check