dbrenn

You made a lot of valid points that small minded people do not want to see nor can realise.

When the US decided that too many Italians where coming to the US and not returning to Italy, they created a ridiculous visa fee.

Italy retaliated in kind, and all the Catholic (I want to see the Vatican Americans), and loads of tourists where so outraged at the tourist fees they had to pay, that the US govt. quickly abandoned the visa idea.

Equality can only be gained by matching fire with fire.

Yes, yours is a perfect example.

In 1920 the US started to ask a $10 visa fee from each and every foreigner wanting to visit the USA (it wasn't just a thing with Italy, it was unrelated to overstayers and the Vatican had no role). Their move was in retaliation of other govts' visa fees and the US hadn't been asking, up to that time, any visa fee.

Many foreign governments unjustly hit by the $10 fee quickly retaliated themselves and the end result was the visa free agreement with Germany, Italy, Belgium, Denmark, Esthonia, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan and Russia, a reduced fee (from $1 to $4) for France, Bulgaria, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Czechoslovakia, Jugoslavia, Austria, Chile and Spain, a reduced fee of $6 for Turkey and the $10 fee for the rest of them.

So the system quickly found a balance and fee were abolished for those countries not taxing American tourists and reduced to levels corresponding to those of the other countries still doing so.

Explain this then. Australia requires everyone, except New Zealand citizens, to get a visa. At present, it will cost about $20. Why hasn't everyone retaliated against Australia? From experience, after the Irish and NZ passports, the Australian passport is one of the easiest in the world to travel on....

One other thing about Australia - it has a points system that disciminates on the grounds of:

1) Age - forget it if you are over 45. That's age related discrimination

2) Education - that's elitism

3) Work experience and profession - ditto 2) above

OK, Australia doesn't have a sexist policy (still got my PR there), but has a discriminatory line in a variety of other areas. Ditto for the US, EU & UK, I suppose. We could find areas of immigration policy somewhere that discriminate about something. Let's all waste valuable life harping on about it.

To be honest, I used to harp on too. But i did something about it, even though it may have cost me in other areas, like that fact that I didn't have the luxury to lounge around studying in Italy or any Western country for that matter, I persevered and proved that it is possible.

Cheers

Who cares? This thread is for people interested in learning more about the process of applying for Thai citizenship. Stay at home if you hate the Thai system that much.

Please start your own thread and complain somewhere else instead of hijacking this one with all this silly ranting. Thought this group was supposed to be moderated.

Most countries do not release juvenile records, so if you were under 18 and charged as a minor should be fine.

I would give it a try anyway buddhafly. If you are very up front about it, and explain immediately and humbly at each step that it was a childish mistake that you made a long time ago, they might let you off if they like you. Far better if it doesn't show up at all, of course.

oh and one more...

by your guess, if someone had 1 small mistake on a criminal record from when they were a stupid teenager, would it completely screw them out of the chances of either PR or cit.?

1) The cost for PR is 191,400 baht for those not married to a Thai national or 95,700 baht for thoise who are. Most of this (not sure how much since I applied a long time ago and paid 25,000 Baht) is payable only upon approval. Good PR thread here

2) The cost for citizenship application fee 5,000 Baht. Fee for certificate of naturalisation upon approval: 500 Baht

3) Criminal record. Not sure. The process is very subjective. Depends how serious the crime is and whether it is a spent conviction that does not show up any more

Good luck

Correct - I was assuming that the poster was a man. PR as a prerequisite for citizenship is not necessary for ladies.

Not correct, PR as a prerequisite for citizenship is not necessary for ladies married to Thai men.

The intent of the law being, of course, not that of discriminating in favor of foreign women but that of discriminating in favor of Thai Men.

Discrimination being the key word. After all, this is a 3rd world military junta country we are talking about...

Right, I mentioned that Astral was correct, and he pointed out that this PR waiver applies to married ladies. Seems clear to me.

Try asking a Thai man who is queuing up outside a western embassy in the peeing rain just to get a tourist visa how fair he thinks the the immigration policy of the west is. Ask him how fair it is that westerners can come to Thailand whenever they choose, in many cases visa free, and stay as long as they like by exploiting loopholes in the system. Thais have an awful lot of trouble just to be granted a visa for one short trip to the west. How fair is that?

Life isn't fair, my friend. Wish it was, but it isn't. Immigrations rules differ the world over, and they are there to serve what each country sees as its best interests at any given time. Nothing we can do to change Thai immigration law so there is no point getting your knickers in a twist over it.

Sorry to ask this again but it does say in the act that it is permitted to apply for citizenship without first obtaining permanent residency

I believe that may be possible if you are a woman married to a Thai man.

Does that apply to you.

Correct - I was assuming that the poster was a man. PR as a prerequisite for citizenship is not necessary for ladies.

Sorry to ask this again but it does say in the act that it is permitted to apply for citizenship without first obtaining permanent residency but when I ask about this the officers say you must first be a pr. I show them the act and they say they dont know, never saw that before.

Does anyone know with certainty what the law really is and how to go about it? I have lived here for 12 years, am married and have children. Paid taxes, a lot, every year, and dont want to wait another 5 years just to apply. Anyone?

Steve

The checklist says that you need PR first, and I was asked for evidence of PR at various steps throughout the process. Time in excess of the minimum requirement that you have spent here married and paying taxes is unfortunately not taken into account for citizenship unless you have got PR first.

There is a 3-year business visa available (only from embassies) but it's intended for frequent business travellers not residents (doesn't permit work).

As John says, the only other thing that remotely fits your description is the Elite Card, an item to be avoided in the current situation.

For Aussies or Kiwis there is also the (much cheaper) APEC card. Valid for 3 years and gives you 90 days on arrival, no limit on number of times that you can come here.

I don't feel sorry for you in any way as there is no excuss for 6 months overstay and hopefully they fine you and stamp your passsport to stop you coming back in again.

You and similar people are to blame for the new and enforced regulations regarding visas which is effecting genuine long term tourists and others who are / were long term residents here (doing monthly border runs which in themselves is not idea but was tolerated) and who are now faced with all sorts of problem to stay with wives and family.

If you think this is a good way to answer, then it's up to you!! But next time first think and then answer... as long you don't know the facts of my overstay you should'nt judge me as well... i know, that my overstay is/was not a good way... dont think i did like it... but sometimes there are no other ways... it's sure a fact, that you can't imagine how happy i am to have also some good answers and at least also to have somebody cares about me... bye and i hope you stay as clean and proper as you like to judge and write

NEWBIE,

It is people like you who do NOT take resposiblity for their actions and expect others to get you out of the mire. You who have caused all the new regulations.

GETALIFE, you are the irresponsible one here, right from the start. NO EXCUSES, reasons, do things properly next time.

I have no sympathy for you and people like you, but do, for the many YOU and your ilk have caused law abiding tourist and wannabe residents.

Myself I stay just under 6 months here, then 6 months at home, summer all year, so the 90 days does not affect me.

Kiwi Pete

Actually "Law abiding tourists" never have problems coming here. Nor do properly qualified "wannabe residents" who go through the proper channels. I presume that you are vilifying the OP because you think he will somehow make life more difficult for people like yourself who also technically break the rules by falsely declaring that tourism is your purpose of visit over and over again, when in fact you are a temporary resident rather than a tourist.

To avoid a double standard here, and given that you have such higth moral standards, perhaps you should condemn visa runners like yourself too, and not just overstayers? If you spend six months a year here on 30 day stamps, while falsely declaring "tourist" on their entry card, you aren't a bona fide tourist even if you do get around the 90-day rule.

I don't feel sorry for you in any way as there is no excuss for 6 months overstay and hopefully they fine you and stamp your passsport to stop you coming back in again.

You and similar people are to blame for the new and enforced regulations regarding visas which is effecting genuine long term tourists and others who are / were long term residents here (doing monthly border runs which in themselves is not idea but was tolerated) and who are now faced with all sorts of problem to stay with wives and family.

Oh don't be such a misery! Hard times can afflict any one of us at any time, and God forbid that you should ever find yourself in a similar situation. At least the OP is trying to sort his problem out. Good luck to him.

I'm glad you all can be so understanding.

In any case, is it common knowledge that even with 6 months overstay at the airport he'll have no danger of jail and the big fine will suffice?

Just wondering.

The OP has nothing to worry about whatsoever, so long as he leaves voluntarily and pays his fine. He WILL be allowed back too. I knew a couple of people who hit on hard times and overstayed for 5 years in one case and 8 years in the other case. In both cases, when they had scraped together the money to leave they paid the maximum 20,000 Baht fine at the airport with no hassles, apart from a rather humourous response from the immigration officials at the overstay desk. Both were allowed to board their flights out, and both came back again on 30 day stamps no questions asked. One then overstayed his 30 day stamp for another couple of years before leaving Thailand for good. The other came back on a 30 day stamp, did visa runs for a while, then got married and is now here legally on a Non-Imm visa.

I am not advocating overstaying, because if you do get picked up you are in deep trouble and end up in the Immigration detention Centre, which isn't fit to keep pigs in. Subsequent deportation in such a case would indeed get you blacklisted. From the experiences of the above two people, however, you do not get blacklisted for overstaying, so long as you surrender, pay your fine with good grace and leave.

In applying for a home loan (dual-name with my wife) I have been asked by to provide a 'bai taang daao' in addition to the usual things you would expect such as work permit, income evidence etc.

The bank is unable to tell me what this is, or where I get it from. They say they just need it.

I heard 2 things about this, but not sure if they are accurate: 1) Its more for migrant workers such as labourers, factory workers 2) its the same as a residency certificate.

Can someone tell me what 'bai taang dao' is, where and how it is obtained.

Many thanks

It's the Alien Registration Certificate (red book) that you get with Permanent Residency. Many lenders stipulate that guarantors for long-term loans must be permanent, rather than temporary, residents.

dbrenn, did you get a sense at your Ministry interview that your application would be eventually approved? Or is it simply that you go for the interview and leave with no real idea as to whether or not you will make it through? I understand from Chatette's responses that she was congratulated at her Ministry interview - which, of course, seems to suggest that the rest is a mere formality. I wonder how many of the applications that are actually accepted by the Police Department and then sent on to the Ministry for approval don't actually make it through to citizenship. I guess we will never know the answer to these questions as they are all internal Ministry matters.

Hi again,

In answer to your questions:

1) No videotape in either interview in my case. The Interior Ministry had a microphone that was connected to a loud speaker system so that all in the room could hear my attempts at singing. Not sure whether it was audio taped for later amusement though.

2) Although they didn't tell me anything at the Interior Ministry whether I had passed or not in the way that they told the lady poster here, the body language of the people there (particularly the boss at the head of the table) indicated that they were happy with my responses. Kind of like the way you feel after a successful interview.

dbrenn, could you tell us more about your initial Thai language interview at the Police Station?

It was easy really. If you can speak Thai on a reasonable conversational level you will have no problems. It is a dress rehearsal for the Interior Ministry, so they ask you to sing the National Anthem and Phra Baramee too, but you can read them off a sheet of paper. There are some standard questions that they ask like "Who is the Prime Minister", "What is the Thai political system", "What is the population of Thailand" and the like. Ask the officials handling your application to run through these questions in advance, as the standard accepted answers are not necessarily the correct ones. I was asked to read these standard questions written in Thai, so you should rehearse this if you are not so good at reaading the language. Other than that, they ask you verbally general questions about your personal circumstances. Just smile and be very polite to the boss when they take you into his office.

Here is a rather interesting provision from the Thai Nationality Act.

Section 19.

The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization if it appears that:

(1) The naturalization was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

Of particular interest I thought, in the context of dual passport holders, was Section 19(2). I wonder what this means in practice? Also, Section 19(5) is also of interest. Overall, it certainly makes sense that someone who has been naturalized can have their Thai citizenship revoked. I did not know, however, that this power of revocation was clearly set out in the Nationality Act.

Being a dual passport holder doesn't necessarily mean that you are still using you former nationality in Thailand or anywhere else. There here being no requirement to renounce former nationality, there is obviously no need to do so.

And I suppose one other comforting though on the chances of getting your Thai nationality revoked is something that you didn't mention in your commentary on the Nationality Act -- that it takes a specially formed committee comprising the Interior Minister, Police Director General, Representative from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to authorise revocation. Unlikely in all but the most extreme cases; highly unlikely for a normal and honest person.

Contrast that with PR, which the immigration commission can summararily revoke simply because you can no longer support yourself, or that you have an infectious disease, or that you are convicted of a petty (by western standards), but nonetheless criminal offence ....

Here is a rather interesting provision from the Thai Nationality Act.

Section 19.

The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization if it appears that:

(1) The naturalization was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

Of particular interest I thought, in the context of dual passport holders, was Section 19(2). I wonder what this means in practice? Also, Section 19(5) is also of interest. Overall, it certainly makes sense that someone who has been naturalized can have their Thai citizenship revoked. I did not know, however, that this power of revocation was clearly set out in the Nationality Act.

Being a dual passport holder doesn't necessarily mean that you are still using you former nationality in Thailand or anywhere else. There here being no requirement to renounce former nationality, there is obviously no need to do so.

Dear dbren:

great post. can you (or anyone) answer the question, must you first be a permanent resident before applying. as i understand it the law does not require this but when you try to apply they tell you you must first be have pr status for three years before they will take you application. Anyone?

PR is a prerequisite. They definitely do ask for your PR upon application, right through the process, and also in order to issue your ID card. The application check list stipulates that PR needs to have been held for at least 5 years. Various posters have asked whether exceptions can be made to the minimum requirements; when I applied they were very strict on each and every requirement, but things can and do change so the best way to find out for sure is to ask at the Police Department.

Yes, there are other countries. But I love Thailand. That's why I live here. That's why I invested 10 million baht to build a hotel business. That's why I married a Thai lady and have a Thai child. That's why I bring money into Thailand (last month it was 750k baht). But, in spite of living here for 5 years, in spite of learning to read/write/speak Thai etc etc bla bla bla bla bla . . I am still treated like some short-stay sex tourist

Cambodia certainly does not thrill me. Maybe I need to split my time with 3 months in LoS and 3 months elsewhere. But to me, that makes me sound more and more like a sex-tourist!!

Anyway, moaning does not help the matter. I don't wish to relocate to another area of the world because my baby son is in Thailand and I need to try to get custody of him, (and I'm sure that's not going to be an easy task).

Simon

PS - With 500k+ baht/month, I can sure put some money in the bank if I stay in Laos/Cambodia!

Simon,

You don't have to leave Thailand even if you get a divorce, Thailand won't refuse you entry as you have a dependent Thai child living in Thailand. Assuming that your son is a Thai national, you should always be able to get non-imm O visas by showing your son's birth certificate at the Thai embassy.

Cheers

dbrenn, I am curious to know whether anything was stamped into your passport after making your application? I know that when you applies for PR the Immigration Department put a stamp in your passport saying that your application for permanent residence is under consideration. I wondered if something similar is done when you apply for citizenship.

Many thanks,

Bob

No, unlike PR nothing was ever stamped in my original passsport. You continue being a PR while your citizenship is under consideration. Once I got citizenship, I was asked to return my PR documents and Work Permit to the respective issuing authorities, and apply for a Thai passport to leave and enter Thailand.

They may have changed the procedure. Female and male acquaintances did their singing at the police station; same male acquaintance who was among interviewees this morning. Another female freind who had her interview earlier this year and now has the ID card had a room full of officials with microphones, like you, but didn't have to sing. Our experience was a bit like I'd imagine speed dating to be. Two kitchen-sized tables each with six chairs and we sat elbow to elbow for a brief chat before the 'yindee duay' was declared by the interviewer. Would have been very odd had anyone burst into song. It seemed to me they were more intent on confirming peoples' bonafides than judging their singing skills.

Good if they are making it easier BUT you did miss out on the most amusing part ....

excellent news. Now you are free to travel I guess!

Did you by any chance get an indication if a farang male with a Thai PP was a common occurance. They gave me the impression that they get a farang coming in on almost a weekly basis out at Chaeng Wattana...but I can't really verify if this was true.

I saw a couple of farangs at the passport office in Bang Na but they had Thai ladies with them so not sure who was actually applying for the passport.

The set of Interior Ministry notices that was just signed contained around 125 names in 6 groups, of which around 5 were western sounding. The rest were chinese, indian and various others.

^Wheels can always be greased. The trick is finding the squeaky ones that need greasing.

As just about anywhere, in Thailand you can get away with murder with the right amount of money.

More often than not you need a trusted discreet and well connected intermediary(read lawyer) to handle the details. It is kind of refreshing to learn that as a rule these things are handled legitimately.

I'll tell you if I found a way through the system to get a PR or citizenship in a streamlined manner I wouldn't advertise it here on a public forum. I'd be the proverbial clam.

For me, the reason why I believe the citizenship area is free from corruption is the issue of national sovereignty. Citizenship, means access to this sovereignty - land, and unfettered rights to exploit what ever sits in the borders, so it isn't given away easily, and any price offered for it is likely to be too high.

Governments of all stripes, will wage catastrophic war for a few square km's of useless mudflats or inches of territory to protect its sovereign rights and claims, so it isn't a surprise for me at least is that the road to citizenship is a tough one at least in Thailand. On this point at least, access to land (whichever way) is a protected and non negotiable issue.

Other countries, take the view that a certain level of foreign participation in ones economy is a good thing, and that the wealth it generates will benefit all its citizens. Hence, the relatively liberal approach to immigration and foreign investment we see in the west. Unfortunately, the public debate in Thailand hasn't yet reached this point. It will, slowly I am sure as the real and perceived benefits become apparent

Hi Samran,

You were right in your earlier comments about the passport office - plain sailing. Applied in less than half an hour at the passport office in Central Bang Na, just showing my ID card and my cerificate of citizenship. Picked up my new passport two days later. Only cost 1000 Baht.

If only the Ampers could learn a thing or two about modern administrative practices from these guys at the passsport office ....

Oh, and by the way, I forgot to mention in my earlier post on my experience at the Ampher to the rest of the group. Although when I origtinally applied for Thai citizenship I had to reserve a Thai forename and surname, I was in the end allowed to keep my original name. Apparently, they have changed the rule obliging a name change on conversion to Thai citizenship. I can always change my name later, if I want, just like the Thais do.

Cheers

Did the Interior Ministry interview this morning, along with about 100 other people. Was very professionally organized with each couple being interviewed by one main interviewer supported by an IM person providing confirming background detail and 3 other govt. officials taking notes. Involved about 5 minutes of very basic questions about our circumstances. Not at all intimidating and very friendly. No singing, for me at least, altho some people behind me were still preparing when we were done. The main interviewer, who seemed director-general level, congratulated me at the end and the IM support person said the IM Minister would sign the order authorizing my citizenship and that will be that. So apart from years of waiting, that's that.

As a by the by, the woman waiting next to me ahead of our interview had her application in for 8 yrs and an acquaintance I knew who happened to be there today put his in last year. Taking out the gap between mine being lodged and me being out of the country, I waited 2 yrs. No explanation for the difference in wait time other than the suggestion that this govt. is trying to clear a backlog built up by the previous admin. So much for anti-foreign sentiment.

Congratulations, and sounds like you had a very good outcome. Didn't know that you ladies don't even have to sing the National Anthem and get interviewed alone by a room full of officials like us guys .... you did miss the best part though

So is there any legal ways that I can enter Thailand again?? I never killed anyone there!!!!! So that means I cannot enter the kingdom for my rest of my life. Is it truth?/?? Pls help!!! Thanks brother and sisters here!!!

Probably not. Most countries have similar regulations that exclude people who commit criminal offences like theft, and quite right too. I for one don't have much sympathy for you if your are guilty, as I have had stuff stolen before and I know how it feels.

Changing your passport might not help either - passport numbers change but I was told that immigration matches people by same name, nationality and date of birth, all of which would appear on any new passport.

Hi! I'm Robin here! On 18Nov03, I was accuse of stealing a handphone and was sent to jail in Bangkok for 4 months. I was deported back to Singapore on 18Mar04. I try to enter Bangkok again on 10apr05 but was deported back again!!!! What should I do now? My wife is a thai. How can I enter Thailand again? Anyone can help? I heard people say that can enter Hatyai? Is it truth? Or do u guys think that if I use my Hanyu Pinyin name in my new passport(now passport have new number instead of my ID number) instead of using my dialect name. Because I used my dailect name in Thailand when I was in jail. thks!! Pls help!!

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers...ails.asp?id=723