Awk

What I do have trouble understanding is that I believe pm10 refers to the number of particles less than 10 microns which also include the 2.5 micron particles so I can see why the aircon filters reduce the pm10 but take out less of the 2.5 micron and smaller and iin your graph the bluesky seems more efficient on 2.5 than it is on the larger particles. Why?

Hmm, yes, the pm10 count refers to particles less than 10 um, and does not include the pm2.5 particles. I.e., the pm10 count represents the particles larger than 2.5um, but smaller than 10um. The pm2.5 count represents particles between about 0.5um and 2.5. (0.5um is the stated detection limit of the DC1700 particle counter I use).

Why the Blueair seems less efficent than the AC on the pm10 particles? That is an excellent observation.

The reason for this I believe I explain in my 2) point in reply to VIBE's post a few minutes ago. As you see, the AC/3M combination has already done a pretty good job at reducing the amount of pm10 particles at the time the Blueair is started. I.e., when the AC started, the PM10 count was over 300. By the time the Blueair is started, the PM10 count is only around 40 or so. There isn't all that much more the Blueair can do at that point. Even if it were to completely eliminate all PM10 particles, it would still only result in a reduction of 40. Nothing compared to the AC/3M combination's reduction of 260+.

So as I said in my other reply, this graph is quite unfair to the Blueair, as the the results are very much skewed in favour of the AC/3M combination.

There were some difference in opinion regarding what will faster "clean" a room, an AC or an airpurifier, so I would like to add some actual data, hopefully of interest to some.

I am still analysing things, but I attach a draft graph displaying some of the difference between a new Samsung AC running at full speed with 3M Filtrete attached on top of the original air filter, with Samsung's "Virus Doctor" feature too, in a room that is around 18m2, and a an air purifier (Blueair 650E) also running at full speed in the same room. At different points in time of course. ;-)

For understanding the graphs, it is important to note that the pm10 values

are shown on the right-side Y-axis. The left-side Y-axis shows only the

pm2.5 values, and has a different scale since there are relatively many

pm2.5 particles compared to pm10.

In short, this graph shows the following:

1) At 22:33 we turn on the AC on full speed, and let it run at that

speed till 23:21. We then turn the AC off for 8 minutes, and measure

the particle count outside the room at that time, indicated with the

red '+' mark for pm 2.5 values and the green 'x' mark for pm 10 values

As can be seen, the AC with 3M Filtrete has reduced the particle

count by quite a bit, especially for the larger pm 10 particles,

during the 50 minutes it has run.

During the 8 minutes it does not run, the particle count in the room

does a slight jump. Whether it does that due to the AC being turned

off or due to me opening and closing the door to the outside a couple

of times to move the particle counter from inside to the outside is

not relevant for this graph.

- At 23:29 I switch on the Blueair 650E, max speed, with the AC still off.

And well, you can see for yourselves what happens during the next 20

minutes, in particular with the (supposedly more harmful) pm2.5 count.

If there is any interest from others here, I will possibly update my

amateur's analysis PDF that I posted in another thread with some more

data and introduce some graphs too.

You don't work for Blueair by chance?

I never took science but can already see where your little experiment is flawed.

You used your aircon to clean the room for almost an hour, and THEN turned on your air purifier??

Why not let your aircon run for 2 hours…..take readings.

Next day, in a room that was IN THE SAME CONDITION as the start of the first test, turn on the blue air and let it run for 2 hours? Then take readings.

Any "scientist" can skew the results of a test in favour of what they want. Remember, Medical doctors used to promote smoking…..

I think that for the purposes of this the test results are valid.

Testing on seperate days is not valid as environmental conditions are not the same.

True tests could possibly done at the same time with identical rooms in identical conditions but this is hard to do and not justified.

I find the 2.5 readings interesting and for me very important. I swear by my filters and although the airconditioner filters are useful (not least because they reduce the need to service the aircon) they cannot replace the filters I use.

What I do have trouble understanding is that I believe pm10 refers to the number of particles less than 10 microns which also include the 2.5 micron particles so I can see why the aircon filters reduce the pm10 but take out less of the 2.5 micron and smaller and iin your graph the bluesky seems more efficient on 2.5 than it is on the larger particles. Why?

You think the tests are valid? Ok. But it still does not change the fact that he tested two different methods AFTER one was allowed to clean the air for an hour.

"I think that for the purposes of this the test results are valid."

This is one of my beefs with science. You have someone with some degree of knowledge interpreting results based on his OPINION.

I thought "science" was meant to have LOGIC and be based on FACTS? Because, logic tells me, and the FACTS are, the two tests were not the completed under the same circumstances.

Why not open windows and doors, wait a few hours, take readings outside AND inside and confirm the inside is at the same level as the first test?

Once again, I am no "scientist" but its easy to see that the two tests were not the same. It makes me wonder, why even bother going through all the hassle if you are not testing the under the same conditions??

Actually I have done that to (opening the doors). That is not to confirm that the level afterwards is the same however, which would be meaningless because neither can I easily start with the same level for the indoor air, I have no control over the outside air seeping in either. The latter is what makes all my experiments questionable. If the level inside after a given amount of time is X, that could in theory be due just as much to the air quality outside changing for the better or the worse, which will of course affect the inside air considerably, depending on how tight the room is sealed. My only recipe for that is to do all tests several times. If the pattern (and not the exact level, which is as said meaningless) is the same for all measurements, I make the assumption that the results of the tests are valid.

It could of course still be the case that I am very unlucky. That on all occasions where I tested the air purifier, the air outside was very good, while on all occasions I tested the AC/3M combination, the air outside is excellent. That is not impossible, and I do try to make some sporadic tests of the outside air while testing inside. Since I only have one particle counter, that unfortunately involves stopping the measurements inside and opening the door to the outside so I can move the particle counter there.

So indeed, there are many reservations that can be made about my tests, and I am not submitting my analysis to Scientific American any time soon. ;-) The points you bring up are however wrong and only shows a lack of understanding on your part.

There were some difference in opinion regarding what will faster "clean" a room, an AC or an airpurifier, so I would like to add some actual data, hopefully of interest to some.

I am still analysing things, but I attach a draft graph displaying some of the difference between a new Samsung AC running at full speed with 3M Filtrete attached on top of the original air filter, with Samsung's "Virus Doctor" feature too, in a room that is around 18m2, and a an air purifier (Blueair 650E) also running at full speed in the same room. At different points in time of course. ;-)

For understanding the graphs, it is important to note that the pm10 values

are shown on the right-side Y-axis. The left-side Y-axis shows only the

pm2.5 values, and has a different scale since there are relatively many

pm2.5 particles compared to pm10.

In short, this graph shows the following:

1) At 22:33 we turn on the AC on full speed, and let it run at that

speed till 23:21. We then turn the AC off for 8 minutes, and measure

the particle count outside the room at that time, indicated with the

red '+' mark for pm 2.5 values and the green 'x' mark for pm 10 values

As can be seen, the AC with 3M Filtrete has reduced the particle

count by quite a bit, especially for the larger pm 10 particles,

during the 50 minutes it has run.

During the 8 minutes it does not run, the particle count in the room

does a slight jump. Whether it does that due to the AC being turned

off or due to me opening and closing the door to the outside a couple

of times to move the particle counter from inside to the outside is

not relevant for this graph.

- At 23:29 I switch on the Blueair 650E, max speed, with the AC still off.

And well, you can see for yourselves what happens during the next 20

minutes, in particular with the (supposedly more harmful) pm2.5 count.

If there is any interest from others here, I will possibly update my

amateur's analysis PDF that I posted in another thread with some more

data and introduce some graphs too.

You don't work for Blueair by chance?

I never took science but can already see where your little experiment is flawed.

You used your aircon to clean the room for almost an hour, and THEN turned on your air purifier??

Why not let your aircon run for 2 hours…..take readings.

Next day, in a room that was IN THE SAME CONDITION as the start of the first test, turn on the blue air and let it run for 2 hours? Then take readings.

Any "scientist" can skew the results of a test in favour of what they want. Remember, Medical doctors used to promote smoking…..

Nope, and here are some of the reasons why you are wrong:

1) It is impossible for me to do these test under the same conditions. That would require some sort of clean room with an external pollution source that could be controlled so that the outside air was the exact same on the the different days. Like harry said.

2) Is it not fairly obvious, science background or not, that if you start cleaning very dirty air, you will more quickly see an improvement, than if you start cleaning air that is already fairly clean? The AC gets to start with the dirtiest air, the air that has the most particles. Each cubic meter of air that passes through the AC at the start of the test contains more particles ("more pollution"), and the AC's 3M filter should therefore be able to reduce the particle count in the room quicker, if it operates at the same efficiency as the air purifier.

When the Blueair starts, the air contains fewer particle ("less pollution") per cubic meter.

Thus to remove a given number of particles from the air, more air has to pass through the Blueair than has to pass through the AC.

If anything, this test is skewed in favour of the AC/3M combination, not the Bluair. Had you said that, I would have agreed.

Cheap Charles.

You have a new leader.

Hi. I get the impression English is not your first language, and apparently even some people for who language should not be an issue did not understand that the post was a joke.

Again, as somebody else already tried to explain to you, the post was a joke. A funny story. Not somebody getting angry over the extra three baht charge.

Will you now go back to your thaiforum and tell them it was a joke that you did not understand?

There were some difference in opinion regarding what will faster "clean" a room, an AC or an airpurifier, so I would like to add some actual data, hopefully of interest to some.

I am still analysing things, but I attach a draft graph displaying some of the difference between a new Samsung AC running at full speed with 3M Filtrete attached on top of the original air filter, with Samsung's "Virus Doctor" feature too, in a room that is around 18m2, and a an air purifier (Blueair 650E) also running at full speed in the same room. At different points in time of course. ;-)

For understanding the graphs, it is important to note that the pm10 values
are shown on the right-side Y-axis. The left-side Y-axis shows only the
pm2.5 values, and has a different scale since there are relatively many
pm2.5 particles compared to pm10.

In short, this graph shows the following:

1) At 22:33 we turn on the AC on full speed, and let it run at that
speed till 23:21. We then turn the AC off for 8 minutes, and measure
the particle count outside the room at that time, indicated with the
red '+' mark for pm 2.5 values and the green 'x' mark for pm 10 values

As can be seen, the AC with 3M Filtrete has reduced the particle
count by quite a bit, especially for the larger pm 10 particles,
during the 50 minutes it has run.

During the 8 minutes it does not run, the particle count in the room
does a slight jump. Whether it does that due to the AC being turned
off or due to me opening and closing the door to the outside a couple
of times to move the particle counter from inside to the outside is
not relevant for this graph.


- At 23:29 I switch on the Blueair 650E, max speed, with the AC still off.
And well, you can see for yourselves what happens during the next 20
minutes, in particular with the (supposedly more harmful) pm2.5 count.

If there is any interest from others here, I will possibly update my
amateur's analysis PDF that I posted in another thread with some more
data and introduce some graphs too.

Just my thoughts, but I think the OP should get a life. Maybe spend less time on a bar stool and more time working so he will be too busy to worry about a 3 baht change. I wasted my time reading this drivel. That's my 2 satang!

Agree this tight arsed farang should just stay home and save 4 satang!

I think it was 3 baht, not satang. If it were satang, I too would think the op might be a tad tightfisted, as you so eloquently indicate. But if it was indeed baht and not satang, that is a whole different ball game of course, and unless one were dining on the company's expense account, I am sure anyone would be a bit miffed.

Does anyone know if it is possible to avoid this extra charge if we bring our own cups?

One thing one should be aware of, perhaps obvious to smarter people that me so I hope I do not offend you, but I wasted the first 10-20 minutes of a test by not thinking about it, is that a modern AC with a thermostat will, of course, switch to idle once the target temperature is reached. From then on it will probably remain mostly idle, only waking up now and then, and thus providing little filtration effect I suspect, unless the few moments it wakes up every now and then are enough. I doubt the latter, but have not (yet?) tried to verify it.

The AC might support a "fan" mode (the brand new AC I am currently testing with 3M Filtrete does and that is the mode I now use when testing it), which keeps running until one manually switch the AC off. This mode provides no cooling effect however, and at this time, one needs both cooling and air filtration unfortunately.

Maybe it will work to set the target temperature of the AC to something low enough to never be reached in practice, if possible, to prevent the AC from going idle. Apart from that, I am not sure what one can do if one has such a nice and modern AC, except possibly manually opening it up and disabling the thermostat, if one has enough electronics knowledge. Invalidating any warranty at the same time of course. This was no problem with the ancient ACs in my own rented home of course, so for something they might be better. ;-)

Awk, when the dialed temperature is reached by our a/c, its thermostat switches off the outside compressor but the fan keeps running, so we have continuous air filtration regardless of room temperature.

Filtrete material is already dark after just two days - may need to change it every four days at this rate.

Ah, that is interesting. Thank you, I will make sure to check if that is the case with the AC I am testing with also. I noticed the compressor outside switched off, but the fan inside is very quiet, so it may have still been running without me noticing it.

Bought the Hatari HT-AP12 unit today at HomePro (Big C @ Super Hwy, Chiang Mai) - on special at 4888 Baht, with an extra HEPA filter and a medium-sized fan thrown in. Can comfirm that the ionizer function may be switched off through the remote control.

Please let us know what you think of it. I'm busy this weekend but may head to HomePro next week to pick one up.

Hard to tell so far, as I'm also running 24/7 a large a/c unit covered in 3M filtrete material which I change weekly under the current conditions.

After running both (a/c w/Filtrete & Hatari HT-AP12 filter) on and off for a couple of days, our initial impression is that whilst the Hatari unit seems to do a somewhat better job of filtering the air, the perceived air-quality difference between the two is minimal.

I would say that the Hatari's main advantage is in its lower running costs (electricity and longer-lasting HEPA filter), and quieter operation.

Since we need to run the a/c to cool the house, I find that the Hatari filter is practically redundant in our household. My guess is that it will probably sit there unused until I find a suitable use for it. Or, PM me if you have a need for a practically-new unit (with spare filter) at a discount.

One thing one should be aware of, perhaps obvious to smarter people that me so I hope I do not offend you, but I wasted the first 10-20 minutes of a test by not thinking about it, is that a modern AC with a thermostat will, of course, switch to idle once the target temperature is reached. From then on it will probably remain mostly idle, only waking up now and then, and thus providing little filtration effect I suspect, unless the few moments it wakes up every now and then are enough. I doubt the latter, but have not (yet?) tried to verify it.

The AC might support a "fan" mode (the brand new AC I am currently testing with 3M Filtrete does and that is the mode I now use when testing it), which keeps running until one manually switch the AC off. This mode provides no cooling effect however, and at this time, one needs both cooling and air filtration unfortunately.

Maybe it will work to set the target temperature of the AC to something low enough to never be reached in practice, if possible, to prevent the AC from going idle. Apart from that, I am not sure what one can do if one has such a nice and modern AC, except possibly manually opening it up and disabling the thermostat, if one has enough electronics knowledge. Invalidating any warranty at the same time of course. This was no problem with the ancient ACs in my own rented home of course, so for something they might be better. ;-)

You seem very certain of what you say.

I know the Blueair 650E uses less than 20 minutes at max speed to reduce the particle count in a polluted 25m2 room by about 90%. How long does your AC take to do the same? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?

I seam certain by relying on my common sense. I do not have specs to share, but my common sense tells me that my LARGE and POWERFUL aircon with the filter size of 1.4M x 0.35M cleans more volume of air, faster than a small stand alone unit. Within minutes our large room is feeling quite cool, so that tells me that within minutes, the majority of the dirty air has already been filtered once. I don't know how many times an hour our aircon is filtering our air, nor do I really care, as I believe its many more times that a small dedicated air purifier. The proof is in the pudding when I take off the 3M filters and wash them and see the BLACK water.

I am certain that the 3M filters are working to a high degree, and sleep well knowing that for a very small investment of a few hundred baht we have clean air in our condo. If you are happy with your stand alone unit, than thats just great.

That sounds good. How clean is the air in your condo when the AC with 3M Filtrete is running? I.e., compared to the outside, does your condo contain 80% of the outside PM 10 and PM2.5 particles? 50%? 10%? 1%? I mean, just a rough ballpark figure could be helpful for people thinking about what to do now that things are starting to get bad.

Also, does your AC with 3M Filtrete filter both the PM2.5 and PM10 particles?

Im sorry, I dont speak geek.

I did mention that I don't have any specs right? And that I use what I call common sense and trust that 3M, which is a world leader in filters and respirators have provided a product that does a half decent job.

This is not rocket science, unless you want it to be, which it seems you do. I have better things to do than take micro particle readings around my condo.

True, this is not rocket science. But it is science. And in science on

does publish statements based on guesses or sense, be it common

or special.

It is possible to measure the particles, or pollution, in a room, and

find out whether one's common sense is right or wrong.

And as anyone with any science background whatsoever will tell you,

even experts will make blatantly wrong guesses about things in the

very field they are experts in. That is why they insist on testing

their guess before stating it in anything resembling a public forum,

lest they later be ridiculed.

With small children, and my lack of education in environmental

science or in how effective an AC + 3M Filtrete is in practice, I admit

there is little I feel is better or more important for me to do than to

"take micro particle readings around my condo".

But I get the impression you are not interested in the science of this,

or in verifying whether what you call your common sense is right or wrong.

You seem very certain of what you say.

I know the Blueair 650E uses less than 20 minutes at max speed to reduce the particle count in a polluted 25m2 room by about 90%. How long does your AC take to do the same? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?

I seam certain by relying on my common sense. I do not have specs to share, but my common sense tells me that my LARGE and POWERFUL aircon with the filter size of 1.4M x 0.35M cleans more volume of air, faster than a small stand alone unit. Within minutes our large room is feeling quite cool, so that tells me that within minutes, the majority of the dirty air has already been filtered once. I don't know how many times an hour our aircon is filtering our air, nor do I really care, as I believe its many more times that a small dedicated air purifier. The proof is in the pudding when I take off the 3M filters and wash them and see the BLACK water.

I am certain that the 3M filters are working to a high degree, and sleep well knowing that for a very small investment of a few hundred baht we have clean air in our condo. If you are happy with your stand alone unit, than thats just great.

That sounds good. How clean is the air in your condo when the AC with 3M Filtrete is running? I.e., compared to the outside, does your condo contain 80% of the outside PM 10 and PM2.5 particles? 50%? 10%? 1%? I mean, just a rough ballpark figure could be helpful for people thinking about what to do now that things are starting to get bad.

Also, does your AC with 3M Filtrete filter both the PM2.5 and PM10 particles?

Your current aircon with 3M filter material over the filter will out perform any stand alone air purifier. Just the shear size of the filter to start, and the amount of air that it circulates. All for a whopping 300B!

I followed a thread last year, went to Macro, and bought several boxes of 3-M filters. I then carefully taped them over the vents of my AC unit in my bedroom. They were solid black in four days, not dark gray. I took them off, but could not wash them. I then taped the rest of roll back on the vents and they were solid black in a week. (I live out towards Mae Rim) I'm wondering how long you 3-M enthusiasts leave yours on.

My wife and I have borrowed a 1,000 dollar air purifier from out landlord in years past. It helped quite a bit in one room.

I'm hoping someone out there who has done some research and bought something they have liked can chime in, because the price between AC units and air purifiers is huge and mystifying and so is the reduction of particulate matter.

There are two popular brands that usually end up at the top of various tests, and that is Blueair and IQAir. Blueair can be ordered from eaeasy.com, and if you search the Chiang Mai forum for IQAir, I remember somebody mentioned where they ordered that from. The air at the output of a good air purifier is one to two magnitudes cleaner than the air at the output of an AC with 3M filtrete attached, even when the AC is a brand new AC with Samsung\s "Virus Doctor" system that is supposed to further clean the air. This I can say after comparing the two directly with a particle counter from Dylos corporation (DC1700).

I do not believe Blueair or IQAir provide the best value for money, and in fact, Consumer Reports USA ranked a much cheaper air purifier from Whirlpool as it's #1 (with Blueair at #2 and #3. IQAir was for some reason not part of the test), and they do not seem to have included the factor that the Whirlpool costs one third or so of the Blueair units.

Unfortunately there are big differences in how well air purifiers filter the air, whether or not they release ozone (something warned against strongly) into the air, as well as the volume or air they move (measured as CADR - clean air delivery rate). For instance, I have the largest Blueair model, but it sadly has little or no measurable effect when placed in the very large and leaking livingroom, with no doors between it and the kitchen or the second floor. The unit works very well in the 25m2 bedroom however.

The CADR numbers you should be able to see on the packaging of the air purifier, but the other things one can only go to independent tests to know. If you search for one of my recent posts, I mentioned a couple of websites with some test published.

IQAir and Blueair are a "no headache" decision I think. You will get one of the best air purifiers available for domesic use, and you will pay a premium for it. If you read the various tests available and try to find a model available in Thailand, and you might very well save a bunch of money and get the same result however. E.g., the 500B filter cost somebody quoted here is less than a tenth of the filter cost of the Blueair 650E model, and needs to be replaced every 180 days. I do not know how well that works however. Hopefully it works similarly good to the top brands, but unless the unit has been tested by independent professionals, how would one know?

I believe you when you say the air is cleaner, as its a HEPA filter is it not? But the volume of air a tiny filter can clean is nothing compared to an aircon. I would rather have two large aircons cleaning all the air in our condo over and over again rather than a tiny unit putting out a small amount of very clean air into a room filled with dirty air. It will take a small unit a long time to clean the air in an entire room, and by that time, the air cons will have cleaned the same air many times over.

And if one was so inclined, they could double up on the 3M filter material making it twice as thick and in theory catching twice as many particles. But I am happy with the amount of matter a single layer filters out.

You seem very certain of what you say.

I know the Blueair 650E uses less than 20 minutes at max speed to reduce the particle count in a polluted 25m2 room by about 90%. How long does your AC take to do the same? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?

Update: Our daughter has fully recovered from H1N1 after being in McCormick Hospital, Chiang Mai, for about a week. When she came in, she first has seizures and then just stopped breathign and was revived in time.

More than 20 people, we know off, died from H1N1 in Chiang Dao District alone, during the past month.

We didn't hear much about it for the past few days, but tonight, one of our good friends mother was brought to emergency with it.

The Thai Government lied about it as long as it could, but now that it is confirmed in at least 5 Provinces, including Chiang Mai, Phitsanulouk and Rayong, among others, they are trying to minimize it and lie about the numbers of people who have died or are infected. They also made it sound like only young children, sick people and the elderly are vulnerable, which is an outright lie.

Our daughter is 17 years old, athletic and was in perfect health. Some of the other people, who have died here, were otherwise healthy adults.

This should be moved back up as a current topic, I think

Kurt

Wow. I am sure I speak for many here when I say I am happy to hear your daughter is now fine. How terrible that must have been. Can you tell us what the doctors did to help her?

I am not sure the Thai government are lying about who are vulnerable. That is is mostly elderly and those who are already sick who are vulnerable is the same I remember reading various western government saying too, a few years ago. Perhaps that is the consensus in the medical field currently? Your experience makes it obvious that others can also get very seriously affected by this however. Time to read up again on what the best advise is concerning this no doubt. :-(

Your current aircon with 3M filter material over the filter will out perform any stand alone air purifier. Just the shear size of the filter to start, and the amount of air that it circulates. All for a whopping 300B!

I followed a thread last year, went to Macro, and bought several boxes of 3-M filters. I then carefully taped them over the vents of my AC unit in my bedroom. They were solid black in four days, not dark gray. I took them off, but could not wash them. I then taped the rest of roll back on the vents and they were solid black in a week. (I live out towards Mae Rim) I'm wondering how long you 3-M enthusiasts leave yours on.

My wife and I have borrowed a 1,000 dollar air purifier from out landlord in years past. It helped quite a bit in one room.

I'm hoping someone out there who has done some research and bought something they have liked can chime in, because the price between AC units and air purifiers is huge and mystifying and so is the reduction of particulate matter.

There are two popular brands that usually end up at the top of various tests, and that is Blueair and IQAir. Blueair can be ordered from eaeasy.com, and if you search the Chiang Mai forum for IQAir, I remember somebody mentioned where they ordered that from. The air at the output of a good air purifier is one to two magnitudes cleaner than the air at the output of an AC with 3M filtrete attached, even when the AC is a brand new AC with Samsung\s "Virus Doctor" system that is supposed to further clean the air. This I can say after comparing the two directly with a particle counter from Dylos corporation (DC1700).

I do not believe Blueair or IQAir provide the best value for money, and in fact, Consumer Reports USA ranked a much cheaper air purifier from Whirlpool as it's #1 (with Blueair at #2 and #3. IQAir was for some reason not part of the test), and they do not seem to have included the factor that the Whirlpool costs one third or so of the Blueair units.

Unfortunately there are big differences in how well air purifiers filter the air, whether or not they release ozone (something warned against strongly) into the air, as well as the volume or air they move (measured as CADR - clean air delivery rate). For instance, I have the largest Blueair model, but it sadly has little or no measurable effect when placed in the very large and leaking livingroom, with no doors between it and the kitchen or the second floor. The unit works very well in the 25m2 bedroom however.

The CADR numbers you should be able to see on the packaging of the air purifier, but the other things one can only go to independent tests to know. If you search for one of my recent posts, I mentioned a couple of websites with some test published.

IQAir and Blueair are a "no headache" decision I think. You will get one of the best air purifiers available for domesic use, and you will pay a premium for it. If you read the various tests available and try to find a model available in Thailand, and you might very well save a bunch of money and get the same result however. E.g., the 500B filter cost somebody quoted here is less than a tenth of the filter cost of the Blueair 650E model, and needs to be replaced every 180 days. I do not know how well that works however. Hopefully it works similarly good to the top brands, but unless the unit has been tested by independent professionals, how would one know?

With that amount up front, it might be possible to get an interest-free loan on one of several new cars if you have a Thai wife, or presumably alone if you are working here. E.g. Nissan Almera, Mitsubishi Attrage, as well as Toyota (and Honda I think) have so-called "ECO-car" models costing around 500,000B and up. Even down to 400,000 if you remove all options.

Rental will be considerably more to pay per month than the interest free loan in most cases I suspect.

I recently got the chance to do some light testing with 3BB's "Premier" service, comparing it to their regular 10/1Mb 590B + tax service here in Chiang Mai.

My conclusion is that one would be better spending the money on buying a Buddha amulet to hang on one's router.

I attach a PDF with the results of the testing, should anyone else be interested.

3BB in Chiang Mai was terrible 2 years ago due to domestic link from CM to Bangkok. Now I see it works much better?

Perhaps 590 baht package + 5-10 usd vps (for vpn purposes) in Singapore works better if 3BB does not throttle bw to Singapore location.

Yes, perhaps doing your own private routing via Singapore would work better, though difficult to know without testing of course.

If somebody has any data on performance via Singapore (or a VPN somewhere else), I hope they share it.

(Apologies for the error in my above post, it is of course 10M/512kB which is the regular 590B service, not 10/1.)

I recently got the chance to do some light testing with 3BB's "Premier" service, comparing it to their regular 10/1Mb 590B + tax service here in Chiang Mai.

My conclusion is that one would be better spending the money on buying a Buddha amulet to hang on one's router.

I attach a PDF with the results of the testing, should anyone else be interested.

3bb-premier.pdf

Also to note if it's addressed to Falang name, customs might seize the package & ask for a (bribe), an additional import tax payment before you can pick it up.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Have you actually experienced that? Has anyone?

I've ordered books, mp3-players, laptops, cables, and various other things. I have never been asked for a bribe, or anything more than the official import fees. Yes, all addressed to my obviously farang name.

1) Trying to somehow get my Dylos unit calibrated, at least roughly,

against the official one was something I wanted to do, but due to lack

of time, and also because I could not seem to find minute or hourly data

on the new air quality website, I dropped that.

Hourly data is here: http://aqmthai.com/public_report.php , then select for example station 36t (Yupparaj), then select PM10 from the list on the bottom left, then click the 'Table' button, making sure to leave it on 'Raw' instead of Daily. Alternatively there is this site: http://aqicn.org/city/thailand/chiangmai/yupparaj-wittayalai-school/ (The main number shown is the AQI which shows high due to Ozone; it's an inner city location. But PM10 is also measured.)

Thanks for the air purifier info; that's very helpful!

Ah, silly me. I thought the old and very usable aqmthai.com site was no longer updated, but looks like it still is. Thanks.

I know somebody staying not far away from 36t there, who has a balcony too. I will see if I can arrange to leave my Dylos unit running there a while and correlate the particle count of the Dylos unit with the particle mass reported on aqmthai during next week.

Where did you get the Blueair unit, and how much did it cost roughly?

Available here at varying prices.

You may be better off making your own DIY unit if you can find the 600 THB HEPA cartridges in Thailand.

For what it is worth, Powerbuy, as listed on Blueair's site, was my first stop. They even have it available on their website for order. Yet when I went to the big Powerbuy store outside Airport Plaza, it was impossible to order it. I ended up pointing it out to the staff on the Powerbuy website, and while the staff were helpful enough and went to check with what I assume was main office, it was not possible to order it. The staff I talked to assumed Powerbuy had stopped selling it, and showed me various other units, including an European. And there are a lot of different air purifiers available, most (but not all) considerably cheaper than Blueair. Some air purifiers reportedly give of ozone also, which according to Consumer Reports USA is something one should stay clear of.

So best to do ones homework and read the professional reviews before buying something I think. Blueair and IQAir seem to be safe choices from various reviews, though I am sure there are better ones available too. Unfortunately Blueair and IQAir are quite pricey, as are the filters to be replaced every 180 days too, at least for Blueair. :-/

http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/aircleaners/certified.htm is another interesting site which lists a lot of California-certified air purifiers, including a lot of other interesting information.

Hi, I have now finished testing most of what I wanted to test. I will

do some more testing, but this will mostly be related to how much time

my air purifier needs to make the room clean, and what speed setting is

necessary when the pollution is extra heavy, so is probably of little general

interest.

MARRY ME!!!!!!!!

That's epic to test and compile all of that!!

Will be great to see the effects later this month when it really kicks off. (When the PM10s are in the > 120+ daily average range)

And also looking forward to see how the government measured PM-10 relates to what you measure with your Dylos unit.

It might even be interesting to go take measurements in the very same area as the government measuring station (like the Yupparat one) for comparison purposes. (Accuracy of the government figures has also been a talking point in the past. They run very fancy equipment, but will still be interesting to see if numbers roughly correlate.)

One question though: You state that for the 3M filter material used with an air conditioner, you completely removed the existing filter and replaced with 3M material. If it is the same 3M Filtrete material I'm familiar with then it is supposed to be used together with the existing filter, attaching it to the existing filter with the double-sided tape strips provided. Is that not what you did? So it should completely cover the entire removable filter, if it is the same stuff I'm familiar with at least.

EDIT: Sorry, scratch that question; I just read your footnote in the PDF that answers it. For a future test it would still be good to measure with the combination of aircon reusable filter + 3M. (I'm volunteering for a test using my air conditioners if you need an old aircon that still has the stock filters.)

Final question: Where did you get the Blueair unit, and how much did it cost roughly?

1) Trying to somehow get my Dylos unit calibrated, at least roughly,

against the official one was something I wanted to do, but due to lack

of time, and also because I could not seem to find minute or hourly data

on the new air quality website, I dropped that.

On the old air quality site, the data was available on a hourly (and

possibly even minute? I do not remember exactly) basis. On the new

site I only see what appears to be a 24h average, which is too rough to

make a usable correlation I think, not to mention that I am of course not

going to camp outside there for several 24h periods with my Dylos unit.

As I understand the icons on the new air quality website, hourly data

should be available for "Air quality situation in Si Phum, Meuang,

Chiang Mai", but I don't see how to access it.

If there is hourly or minute data available on the new site also, I'd

appreciate a pointer on how to access that, if somebody knows.

The guy who's blog I mentioned regarding the do-it-yourself air

purifier has btw done the same, but in Beijing:

http://particlecounting.tumblr.com/post/63023637403/are-particle-counters-and-government-machines-the-same

According to his calculations, a pm2.5 count of 25,000 corresponds with

a pm2.5 concentration of 100ug. The source of pollution in Beijing

(traffic or factories?) is probably different than here though, where

the main factor is presumably the burning done at this time of the year.

The average weight of the particles would thus also be different I

assume.

2) The air purifier I bought from EA Easy.

A direct link to their airpurifier page is this:

http://www.eaeasy.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=34&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64

The website is in English, but the guy who answers their email

reads/writes English well. I ordered by paying the amount in advance in

to their bank account, paying the listed price of 36,900B. Filters are

about 7,000B if I remember correctly, to be replaced every 180 days.

EA Easy also sell the smaller Blueair models (e.g., Blueair 203), but

I figured I am better of running a larger model at slower (and quieter)

speed, than a smaller model at faster (and more noisy) speed. As it is,

I suspect I may have to increase the speed of my 650E model to the max

as the pollution increases anyway though.

The "auto mode" of the 650E model I found useless. It triggers if

somebody is cooking in the kitchen, due to the gas-detector on the unit,

but I have never experienced it triggering due to the dust-detector,

no matter how polluted the Dylos unit reports the area is. The Dylos

people have their own to say about how useless the builtin detectors on

airpurifiers are, and that matches my own experience with the 650E at least.

Suspect I will have to continue using my Dylos unit to check the particle

count in the evening, after running the Blueair on speed 2 in the room,

increasing it to the considerably more noisy speed 3 if/when necessary.

they buy a couple of Mrs. Field cakes

Which one has Mrs, Fields? I miss those chocolate chip cookies. I remember when you used to have to stand in long lines to get them in California.

Central Festival. Not eaten there myself, but guess I should do.

AFAIK, No one's allowed to drive in China who aint Chinese.

Not so. Did not drive there myself, but fellow expat-colleagues who were working longer-term did. Had the necessary papers/licenses of course (whatever that is).

If you read some of the old threads, you will see that there are people who are completely oblivious to this unfortunate phenomena. This includes me, who in earnest would probably have never known, even today,. That even though I used to exercise quite hard outdoors during the worst of it. Unfortunately, there appears to be no doubt that the health consequences of this pollution is very bad in the long term, though I personally probably wouldn't worry if just visiting, unless I had previous health/lung problems.

Currently I am experimenting with 3M's filtrate material, regular air conditioner filtering, and one of the supposedly best personal use air purifiers (from the Blueair company), measuring the effect with a particulate counter from Dylos Corp. Hopefully it will let me make some educated guesses as to what is needed to hopefully reduce the problem in my family's home at least.

Post your results. Thanks!

Hi, I have now finished testing most of what I wanted to test. I will

do some more testing, but this will mostly be related to how much time

my air purifier needs to make the room clean, and what speed setting is

necessary when the pollution is extra heavy, so is probably of little general

interest.

There was quite a bit of data gathered, and so I found it easiest to use

my regular document processing system for my own thinking and analyising.

While I admittedly did not pay much attention to others possibly reading

this document when I started on it, I have tried to attach my document as a

PDF-file with this message and have tried to make it more readable for others,

in case anyone else should be interested in reading it.

My short conclusion is that the 3M Filtrete material works, and does

improve things somewhat, but much less than I expected. 3M Filtrete

simply wrapped around a fan also improves things considerably. But only the

air purifier brings the particle count down to fair level, at least without too

much noise.

analysis.pdf

Generally, IQAir and Blueair seem to come up among the top 3-5 in most tests. Additionally there are some more exotic, and probably difficult to get, brands also.

One site that has quoted a recent review with more-or-less locally (to Asia) available brands is here: http://www.myhealthbeijing.com/pollution/finally-great-data-on-air-purifiers-in-china/

I have ordered an air purifier from http://www.eaeasy.com myself, based on another TV-poster mentioning EAEasy. I have only barely had the need to contact them for any after-sale service, and their response to that was good. Not enough dealings for me to strongly recommend them, but enough for me to mention them. Their website is in Thai, but if you use google-chrome, it seems to translate it to English well enough. The guy who responds to emails at the EAEasy "Contact"-address fortunately reads/writes English well and I had no trouble communicating with him that way.