jonclark

Seems like you need the reading lessons 'master'!

"Phan Kamkong, 43, was caught in a volley of gunfire when he ran out of a central Bangkok apartment block to see what was happening after hearing soldiers open fire at a minibus" Phan had not been driving the van and did nothing more incriminating than coming outside to see what was going on...if not murder definitely manslaughter!

BP for once you make a good point. It is clear that this man was not the intended target of the soldiers gun fire - the van was - so the intention to kill him surely isn't there as the soldiers weren't aiming at him - so not murder as that was not the intention, responsible for his death yes, but not their fault, partly their fault at best

The van driver has to hold some of the blame as his actions, led to the reactions which caused the death.

Sad but true as life is cheap here, wrong place wrong time - bad luck.

According to his wife - He never attended the rally and worked as a taxi driver.

So why was he in a restricted area at ratchaprasong, driving a white van? Surely he wasn't collecting a fare?

I think what this ruling means is that Thai people in general are allowed to ignore the rule of law, when it suits them and lay the blame for the consequences on their demise or injury on those that initiated the law in the first place.

I'm not surprised though as Politicians have been doing this for years in Thailand. I'm surprised it took the locals so long before they tried the same legal defense themselves.

Lies, Lies Lies here on TV. Those photos are fakes There is no flooding, we're all imagining it, It hasn't happened - Yingluck said so and she's so beautiful and charismatic that I can't imagine she would say something if it wasn't untrue. Lies, Lies, Lies.

I'm going to put my head in the sand now and hope it all goes away.

Bit of a nonsense poll as neither the Dems or PTP have actually unveiled their candidates.

What's the point of being "elite" if you can't trample all over poor people?

Such is the Thai system of patronage that, this type of behaviour is seen as acceptable practice .

The bloke in the photos got a msssive head and as for his fingers!!! That is not a real photo.

"Chalerm said the TRCT, which had been appointed by the Abhisit Vejjajiva government, had no authority to conclude that there were any "men in black" during the protest"

Wonder if Chalerm and Thida agree with the TRC recommendation that those affected by political violence should receive money, including those who have faced unfair trials??

http://www.thaitruth...mmendations.pdf

She disagrees with the TRC on the amount.

The Truth for Reconciliation Commission of Thailand has proposed that Bt3.24 million be given as compensation for "death from political unrest

http://www.thaivisa....t/#entry5303852

She and Jatuporn called for three times that amount.

As for red-shirt leader and Pheu Thai Party list MP Jatuporn Phrompan's demand for the government to pay compensation of up to ten million baht to each family of victims killed in last year's political violence, Thida said the 10-million-baht proposal had been floated a long time before Pheu Thai won the July 3 election

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4625317

Of course they want more! As we all know money = votes

"Chalerm said the TRCT, which had been appointed by the Abhisit Vejjajiva government, had no authority to conclude that there were any "men in black" during the protest"

Wonder if Chalerm and Thida agree with the TRC recommendation that those affected by political violence should receive money, including those who have faced unfair trials??

http://www.thaitruthcommission.org:81/thaitruth/images/stories/documents/translation_of_trct_recommendations.pdf

TGF says Asian cars built in Europe by Americans must be best. Thai logic rules!!!

If I was a cynic i'd reply to you analogy by saying that if you didn't have the guard in the first place would the thugs have killed your family and robbed your house. No guard = no one to annoy the local thugs which following the chain of events you describe means your house remains un robbed and your family alive.

I think directly comparing the army to thugs and murderers, who are by definition and action, as the name suggests implicit law breakers is slightly unfair and is a biased starting point for your analogy.

Fair point with regard to the military but similarly I wasn't trying to portray my family as red shirt supporters either (in fact the opposite is true). That said anyone that shoots randomly into a crowd of unarmed protesters is perhaps befitting of the title "murderous thug". I wouldn't extend that to the entire armed forces of Thailand but most baskets of apples have a few that are rotten to the core...

The point was that while the guard provided the initial spark for the reaction the responsibility for their actions rest firmly with those that pulled the trigger.

BTW as you did actually make this reply is it fair to label you a cynic?

Sorry I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. The point was using your household guard analogy. The guard started the problem, but you say he holds no responsibility. I am saying if he hadn't caused the problem (pissing off local thugs) there would have been no problem at all. Or do you think it is okay to piss people off, agitate them and then wash your hands of the consequences?

In effect what your stating is people who cause the problem (the guard [as an analogy for the MIB] ) are not responsible for the fallout the follows when people react.

So if i turned up at your house repeatedly late every night of the week and made you and your family feel unsafe, by various types of anti social behavior and piss you off, you come and and smack me one. It's all your fault. I hold no blame

Your analogy is too simplistic and poor and simply doesn't hold up - sorry

As for the cynical bit - spot on - that's what living here does to you when yo follow Thai politics!

Does it not occur to you that just perhaps the MIBs were called in because of incidents like this, for the protection of the protesters and to create a visible deterrent to the heavily armed military that had the protesters out numbered.... no I guess not.

They were clearly very successful then as a deterrent if, as one is led to believe, most protesters died after the MiB turned up and the military become more violent. Perhaps had they not turned up .....less lives might have been lost... but that is just speculation and hyperbole as is you claim they were a deterrent.

If you want to reply to a post I've made please quote the entirety of the post rather snipping it and taking it out of context. Thankyou.

I actually think there's a lot of truth to what you wrote. I believe their presence did escalate the situation but to then hold them accountable for the military's shooting of unarmed civilians is just irrational. Were they a contributing factor to the escalation of military violence? Sure.

Let's say I employ a guard as a deterrent to burglars and this guard happens to piss off a bunch of neighbourhood thugs. These thugs lock and load, ignore the guard but kill my family and rob my house... would it be rational to blame the guard and therefore absolve the actions of the murderers?

If I was a cynic i'd reply to you analogy by saying that if you didn't have the guard in the first place would the thugs have killed your family and robbed your house. No guard = no one to annoy the local thugs which following the chain of events you describe means your house remains un robbed and your family alive.

I think directly comparing the army to thugs and murderers, who are by definition and action, as the name suggests implicit law breakers is slightly unfair and is a biased starting point for your analogy.

"the first death on April 10 had taken place in front of the Education Ministry when a red-shirt protester was killed by a bullet from an unknown assailant. This was well before the men in black showed up."

I suppose that by definition of "unknown assailant," it means that it is quite possible that the protester was killed by the as yet unobserved MIB?

Who puts a time on their arrival? And what was their purpose if not igniting violence?

Does it not occur to you that just perhaps the MIBs were called in because of incidents like this, for the protection of the protesters and to create a visible deterrent to the heavily armed military that had the protesters out numbered.... no I guess not.

They were clearly very successful then as a deterrent if, as one is led to believe, most protesters died after the MiB turned up and the military become more violent. Perhaps had they not turned up .....less lives might have been lost... but that is just speculation and hyperbole as is you claim they were a deterrent.

On pages 163 and 164, the report says that somebody saw a group of men in black step out of a white van at 7pm on April 10 near the Democracy Monument only to be "surrounded" and escorted by red-shirt guards toward the direction of the deadly confrontation. The guards "barred people from taking photos and some protesters shouted 'a helping hand is here', but were later prevented from speaking".

This quote ties in with my own experiences which i recounted on a previous thread: http://www.thaivisa....-protest-deaths # 16

Only to 'corrected' by a red apologist.

The only "correction" to your post was another forum member who was there as well (whether or not at the same time I don't know) who said he saw nothing like this occur and another one disputing the 500 MIB figure that the government propagandists were peddling.

You also stated that

" Please remember the events i recounted took place outside the protest area which is where most of the violence and deaths occurred."

which tends to point out that the vast majority of the red shirt protesters had no idea this was happening and highlights some of the alarming posts on this forum about red shirts deserving to die because they happened to be in the same city as these "500 MIB". I would also suggest that a good deal of those red shirts there at the democracy monument had no idea either.

Indeed as you correctly quoted me most of the deaths took place outside the main demo area, which suggest that there was less violence in the ratchaprasong area that is being suggested.

However.

The problem clearly is at an event such as this is that individuals (and i include myself) see 'snapshots' of a wider situation and assume (rightly or wrongly) that that snapshot represents the bigger picture in its entirety. Which clearly it doesn't. But when those snapshots are combined we see a very fluid and dynamic situation which brought out the best and worst in both the protesters and the security forces at different times.

The propaganda being peddled by a number of leading red shirts leaders plays almost exclusively on the simple dichotomy of simple, honest, law abiding protesters verses an illegal, vindictive, murderous security forces and government. (The dem government peddled the exact opposite) Both are true in part, but the actions these words describe, can be applied equally to both sides as opposed to exclusively.

Did the protesters deserve to die - no. Did the protesters know the MIB were among them - who knows how many protesters were truly aware of this, Did the MiB tactics draw a sharper response from security forces? You decide. Did the red leadership know about the MiB and what role did they have in their use..well those really are the million baht questions.

Nevertheless the presence of an armed group is supported and true.

Bit offended by the sweaty farang comment - There are plenty of sweaty people of other ethnicity (Asian, African, Indian) as well as Caucasian using public transport.

I think the problem is that apart from buses, public transport BTS / MRT as a % of income is actually quite expensive for a family if the journey is any distance - 55 baht from On nut to Mor chit (220 for four people each way). The bus is cheaper, but probably involves a change of bus and at least 1 hour slowly chugging through traffic. Hardly great alternatives for the average Bangkokian family.

Obviously if your single the BTS is perfect

I sure if the BTS was a flat 10 / 20 baht fare its popularity would soar. But then would the riff raff be welcomed by the middle classes, Hmmmm

Back in the car i guess

On pages 163 and 164, the report says that somebody saw a group of men in black step out of a white van at 7pm on April 10 near the Democracy Monument only to be "surrounded" and escorted by red-shirt guards toward the direction of the deadly confrontation. The guards "barred people from taking photos and some protesters shouted 'a helping hand is here', but were later prevented from speaking".

This quote ties in with my own experiences which i recounted on a previous thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/580865-former-thai-pm-abhisit-in-court-over-red-shirt-protest-deaths # 16

Only to 'corrected' by a red apologist.

What's wrong with books?

Absolutely nothing at all but you'll struggle to browse the internet or run any software on them... you also have to buy a new book when you finish reading it, on a tablet you can simply download new content, which involves the destruction of less natural resources than printing another book...

Although the materials and energy used in building the tablet in the first place (mining , transportation, refinement of minerals, rare earth metals and plastics, energy used in constructing the tablet, and the constant recharging) are greater than those involved in printing a book . Less destruction of natural resources, eh, not so sure? Fairly sure books biodegrade as well, not so sure about tablets. I won't even start on how much energy the internet uses.

83.6 percent agreed to let PM Yingluck continue working in the government,

The forum red shirts are naturally falling over themselves to interpret this as meaning that 83.6% support Yingluck and think she is doing a good job. It may be interpreted that way, and it may also be interpreted as people having respect for democracy. It's quite possible to think that Yingluck is doing an abysmal job, but that in accordance with the basic principles of democracy, she be allowed to see out her term.

Funningly enough up to and including your post #18 there was only one person who may be regarded, no doubt by you and your peers, as a "forum red shirt" and he was actually questioning the Land deal and its relevance to Thaksin. A good deal more peoples posts though, including yours are questioning the validity of the poll and what it actually means. So far, your assertion that "The forum red shirts are naturally falling over themselves to interpret this as meaning that 83.6% support Yingluck and think she is doing a good job" is complete bunkum............

For my two cents worth, I interpret the poll to mean people want some political stability as opposed to an interpretation of like / dislike or success / failure of the current administration. People just want to get one with life, without the continuous colour coded political tsunamis that parliament keeps throwing up.

Perhaps most Thais just see Taksin as an irrelevance. An old has been clinging to what once was, and now the majority prefer his more charismatic sister.

Bird poo you said (and i'll paraphrase please excuse) That his original trial had irregularities and should be declared invalid and a new one initiated. Most Trials in Thailand have irregularities, with allegations of confessions obtained through torture, missing evidence (Chalerms sons case), intimidation of witnesses, corruption, money under the table (or in a cake box if your prefer), the police setting up individuals on the flimsiest of evidence [ the other paper had an editorial on this today] . Should all case with alleged irregularities be declared void and a retrial enacted. Or is this just a special one off for Taksin, the man of the people??

Siam Paragon has dual pricing also. Full price for Thais and 5% discount for tourists. Outrageous. LOL.

Also, free for US, UK and other farangs to visit Thailand, but very costly for Thais to get a tourist visa to those countries. Dual pricing. Once again in favor of farangs.

When will we farangs get treated the same as Thais and be made to pay 5,000 baht for a visa to come here for a week's holiday? Don't they realise that we all want to be treated just like the Thais? LOL.

Thailand is perfectly able to ask tourist to pay for a visa. The fact it doesn't probably means the authorities think it is in their interest to not charge. If you live here. then just like Thais visiting the UK, you have to pay for your visa.

Interesting bit about tickets eventually no longer being available at the gates. Guess that means there will be openings for 7-11 franchises at the park entrances.

This is mental. How can a persons bail be revoked and then re-applied for, with sitting cabinet members as guarantors. No wonder the Thai public at large show such flagrant disregard for the law. The justice minster needs to keep out of this. What we are seeing is the PT government making the same mistakes as the previous democrat led government, by meddling and interfering in the judiciary. If this man is innocent, then let due process take its course like it has to for every ordinary Thai and the truth will prevail.

Hey Birdpoo - You still haven't answered my question - Who killed the soldiers. Stop hiding.

Unlike yourself, I don't claim to know the answer. I only point out to those opinionated enough to lay blame, that they may be wrong.

Birdpoo - well said your don't know the answer.

Hey Birdpoo - You still haven't answered my question - Who killed the soldiers. Stop hiding.