Irene

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Your friend should read the whole article on www.drugs.com

No, not your friend should have read the whole article. That doctor in charge should also have read the article.

After reading the thread, my advice to you is not to rush into any property acquisition. If necessary, just rent and mull over the choices. Should you eventually find one that is definitely to your liking and really have to buy, if it is a landed house, then use the usufruct route. But if it is a condo, then it should be in your name only.

Hi pkrv,

Thanks for the encouragement. Just one correction, I invested through the US Exchanges but mostly in Exchange Traded Fund (ETF) and American Deposit Receipts (ADR) which are fundamentally backed up by stocks of companies outside the States, such as EWJ, EWZ, EWS, EWM (Japan, Brazil, Singapore and Malaysia), PetroChina. They gave me profits of different ranges and I liquidated 80 percent of them before the subprimes crisis. With that principle, I started to increase my port in MSCI Emerging Market leaving in total one-third of my port in stocks which is now at a paper loss of 8% and two-third in cash. I started to dabble in US financials for speculative purpose like Citibank and I got burnt with 12% loss. I agree with you for non-America residents, invested in US companies, which are relying on the domestic market, is bad strategy because of the dollar weakness. I have a few in Johnson & Johnson and General Electric because of their international exposure thereby compensating the dollar weakness.

pkrv,

Thanks for your kind words. You are correct that we did not bring in foreign currency for our condo purchases. We started poorly by our own savings plus one bank loan initially. Now we do not have bank loans but rely more on rental income, savings and diversions of our stock portfolio in Thailand to acquire a new condo. We have an edge over others in being quick in offering cash to a seller thereby getting a few bargains.

Our US stocks are separately maintained in US. As a matter of fact, we have lost our advantage in not bringing the US fund back to Thailand earliers after the financial crisis in 1997 because our US investment was made pre-1997 when the exchange rate was at Baht 25. If we brought back when it was at Baht 40 a few years ago, we would have made a hefty exchange gain (Baht15/dollar). If we bring in now, the gain would be Baht 8/dollar. But we do not believe in "what if" laments and prefer to look forward. As they say in golf, there is no "if" and "but". We try to learn from our mistakes which were many and we are still making mistakes. We have succeeded in avoiding the habit of crying over the spilt milk. We prefer to enjoy testing our intelligence on our investments and learn from others' experiences. This forum is a great help if you know how to refine the comments. The fight for the gain is within us and not with anybody.

I wrote to this thread because of someone's comments that long term investment is not worth it in this third-world country. But my experience is otherwise. I do not know what the future will be but I know that presently US dollars is on the downward trend and it is inevitable that the Baht should be strengthened. We decide not to bring in the dollars even though it would be a wise move. But we thought of risk spreading and therefore opted for the first world and third world in our portfolio.

My comments are as follow:

Does anyone know what is necessary if I want to "buy" an already leased property. If there is only 15 years left on the lease, can that lease be cancelled and a new 30 year lease replace it? You would need the lessor to cancel the old lease and give you an extended lease.

If not, do I just sign a sub-lease for the remaining years, does it need to be registered or have the owner's (of the land) approval. Again, agreement from the owner is necessary. A lease of a period of more than 3 years is required to be registered with the authority.

Hi Irene

Enjoyed reading your post. I like your frank and sensible explanation, especially concerning investing in the USA where one can be bitten/beaten too. You are an astute investor who puts her/his money where the mouth is. Thanks.

Hi ya5702,

Thank you for the kind words. You don't know what it means to me in this sea of cynics. I sometimes doubt my thought as well.

Irene, you are doing very well here.

The cynics can't even afford to buy even one condo here, let alone multiples like you. Hence their bitterness.

palm,

Thank you, I appreciate the encouragement.

I must be totally wrong.. I was told that if you sold a property there was not only the sales tax (which just got hellishly more expensive down here on Phuket, but thats a province thing) but that the capital gains on the rise was taxed as Thai income.. As thai incomes dont often end up in the multi million range, this was in the upper bands for most of it.

Is that information totally false ??

You are slightly correct but mostly mistaken on Thai tax structure on property sale. You are right that there is a sales tax, (officially named as specific business tax). However, this tax at 3.3% is applicable only when the property has been held by an individual for less than five years or by any corporation. But if held by five or more than five years by an individual, then no sale tax is applicable but instead you have to pay 0.5% stamp duty.

You are right that there is Thai income tax on this sale. But it is not calculated on capital gains on the rise. It is calculated on an assumed basis of the gain. The assumption is based on the amount of the proceeds less allowances for the deductions. The percentage deduction is based on the years of ownership. The net sum shall be taxed under income tax rates ranging from 5% to 37%. But instead of calculating on the total net sum, the net sum shall be divided by the number of years of ownership (i.e. annualised). That annualised sum shall be subject to the calculation of that multi-rates of 5 to 37%, the result of which shall be multiplied by the number of years. The sum shall then be regarded as income tax payable on that sale. In short, they allow you to use the multi-rates many times depending on the number of years of possession. Hence the tax amount is not that prohibitive. Furthermore , the beauty of it is the income shall not form part of the seller's other income thereby subject to tax calculation again. For most people this could start with the 30% to 37% range. They allow you to elect whether you wish to declare so at the end of the year or not or just take the withholding income tax as paid at the land department as a final tax on that sale. There are a few who would prefer to declare at the end year if there is a likelihood of tax refund. This is normally applicable to those who have no other income or with income but subject to lower tax ranges.

My comments and corrections are in bold type:

Would someone advise if these are the only taxes applicable when buying selling land.

1. Transfer Fee 2% appraised value of land by Land Office or the actual sale value whichever is greater. (negotiable ~ normally 50/50)

2. Stamp Duty 0.5%. (paid by the buyer, negotiable and normally 50/50)

3. Withholding Tax. (paid by the seller)-(one should make sure with the seller that it is his liability and should be borne by him otherwise they could be argument at the land transfer office to regard this tax as 50/50 as well).

4. Specific Business Tax 3.3% (It is the seller's liability but should be specifically stated before concluding the deal. It is payable if the seller is a corporation or if the individual has been holding the property for less than 5 years. If this tax is payable, then stamp duty would be exempted.)

Does anyone have the Thai translation for the above taxes? (The relevant sections are spread over the Thai Tax Code).

Also do I have the correct %'s applicable and I am correct in thinking that the Transfer Fee is normally split between buyer and seller (not necessary, it depends on your negotiable power). Also #2 paid by the buyer (under the law, it is supposed to be borne by the seller but in practice it could be negotiated) and #3 paid by the seller (Yes, definitely, but in practice, some sellers like to pull a fast one and maintain at the last minute at the land department that it should be shared half half as well. So to be on the safe side, one should agree in writing prior to concluding the deal at the land department the extent on the types of taxes and duties that the buyer has to bear, other than that it is the seller's account).

Lastly if I have a copy of the Chenod will the Land Office tell me what the current owner paid for the land.You can make a search at the Land Department for an official sale contract or see the rates of taxes then paid. I am not sure whether the figures are revealed readily on the file. Anyhow, the figures are not that reliable and it tends to be understated to save the taxes and duties on both sides.

Thanks.

My comments are in bold type:

Well depends on your perspective.. I think something like 100 - 120% over 25 years (and thats in baht terms) not that impressive myself.. Then if you look globally (which you have to do IMO) it shrinks even further..

Maybe I have high expectations.. However I have done >100% in 4 years so the idea of that needing 25 doesnt feel good. But you have ignored my current rental return at 18% and 30%. Warren Buffett has consistently accumulated his wealth at an annual return of 22%.

Also would you not owe large chunks of capital gains tax on any sale ?? Since I bought that 3.5m unit, I never sold a single unit of my condo. The tax on gain is minimal even if I have sold my unit. I have no desire to sell any units now with the rising in rental income and fantastic yield.

Minimal ?? I thought it was +- 30% of the asset rise ?? I dont know as I dont own here. No, the tax is paid at the land department. It is minimal if the property has been owned for at least five years. The tax is calculated under a formula based on a number of years of ownership. It is in the range of a few hundred thousand baht depending on the proceeds.

My replies to your latest comments are in blue bold type:

Your other comments are only your viewpoints of the future in which it is too high-flying for me since I go by my macro-economy and gut feeling. But I take exceptions to your last comments as follow:

Thailand value of property has never come down but they do have property unrealisable that are supported by financial institutions and developers. With the price I paid for my latest unit of Baht140,000/sqm, you would need at least ten times that amount to buy a unit near to the central park. You would also have hard time to find a property in the US that gives you a yield of more than 5%. I invested in San Francisco and London many years ago and withdrew from the market because of the poor yield. They then believed in the benchmark yield of more than 3% as reasonable. For me, anything lower than 5% is a miss.

Excuse me?! Thailand's property value went down pretty hard in the '97 era and remained stagnant for many years after that. Even if it's as you say "they do have property unrealisable that are supported by financial institutions and developers" that means there are false floors in place to prevent the bottom from dropping out. Ie. vacant high end units that are priced too high and the developers refuse to eat paper losses on it so they keep it in their inventory forever. If you think about it that's the same as lower valuation the property because it's not producing any returns so it's dead weight. That means the developer is eating significant maintenance/development costs that haven't been realized as well. All the developers went bankrupt at that time and became non-performance loans of the financial institutions. For individual owners, they defaulted and also became npl for the banks. But for those individual holders without any debts, they just hung on to the ownership since most of them could afford to hold on to them instead of selling at a price lower than their cost because most of them are well to do. (In my case, our rental income had hardly come down and hardly had any vacancy). Believe me, in 1997 I was flushed with cash and looked around for cheap property, I simply could not see the cheap price as many had suggested. I even approached a few banks and they were punch-drunk to take any interest in liquidating on their npl's. Through accident, I found only a few units at Jomthien, Pataya. I have yet to see the price being dropped in the market in Thailand and I attribute to the structure of the buyers. You could be right this time there could be a bust if the speculators are not the type that can withstand the pressure if there is a crisis in Thailand. But from what I know of a few of them, they do not look like the type. If there is a crisis in property market, history will repeat itself and the financial institutions will again hold the can and wait for the rise, just like the property market in United States now.

You're also comparing Bangkok with some of the most valuable prime real estate in the world. Bangkok is not even close to being comparable with San Francisco or the area around Central Park. Nor does it have the potential unless Bangkok somehow becomes the finance capital of Asia overnight. You have to take into consideration the scale of the economy and how the demand is being financed. Btw, SF and Manhattan were not effected by subprime at all. There's a term called blue chip real estate and those areas (like Malibu, Brentwood, Hollywood hills, Hamptons) are classic examples of this. Bangkok is NOT a blue chip city simply because prices are reaching parity with parts of the U.S. (middle class suburban condo units) and there is plenty of speculator driven demand. Historical loan defaults are also fairly horrible with plenty of market manipulation. This is the same scenarios you got in smaller cities in the U.S. Wow, it is not disputable at all that Bangkok belongs to the Third World. However, there are expatriates who have to come to Thailand to earn profits for their bosses and have to live in Thailand. To induce them to come to work in Thailand, housing allowances have to be large to get them to agree to come here. Unfortunately, the supply to meet this demand is not sufficient, hence the rental value is relatively high for a third world country like Thailand. In China and Indonesia, the rental there are far higher than Bangkok and in China, in some area it is comparable to New York. I recent know of one individual investing exclusively in high-quality houses with private swimming pools etc. for a cost per house of Baht50m-Baht100m and earning rental income per month of Baht250,000-500,000. They are all occupied.

Look, I don't doubt that you've made some money in the Thailand real estate game but it's highly disengenuous to imply that it's a safe or profitable investment for everyone. Especially when the current trend is speculator driven demand with high sqm prices. If you read through my input in this forum, at no time I ever suggested anyone to invest in Thailand. The reason I participated in the discussions is to share my experience as being otherwise than many wise guys' viewpoints. Why do I share my experiences and knowledge? It is simply to learn from others as well on their reactions to my thought and adjusted accordingly when warranted. I have been trained to believe that discussion is not to find a winner or a loser but to progress in your thought and improve on your knowledge. With this mentality, it has put me in good stead wealth-wise and knowledge-wise. I do not stand still and hang on to my belief and I don't need to cajole anyone to the Thailand property market.

My replies are in bold type:

Yes thats my point.. So if you had been (like the vast majority of people discussing these threads) bringing in overseas currency to purchase these condos.. You would have been pretty badly off as an investment !! I am reading you spend mid 3mil (at 22 ish to the dollar) to 25 years later have 7 - 10 mil (lets say 8.5 ??) after all that time.. And that makes a 'good' investment ?? I would be horrified.That made a good investment if you did not use the overseas fund. But for the future, if you think the Baht would be strengthening that seems to be the case, then using overseas fund would give you the gain and not the loss as in the 80's? I like to say that the 80's to 1997 was unusual because Thailand was based on a fixed exchange rate system and it was artificially strong when economic facts then told you that the Baht should be weaker than that level. Hence we had the 1997 crisis. Now the problem is the baht is too weak and should have been stronger to a level of 30. If you invest with 33 now, you might get the dollar at 30 thereby having 10% more dollar. You know very well one should not invest on the information of the past history, it should be prospectively.

Thats (3.5m at 22) a cost of about 160k USD in 80's money.. For a realized gain of +-8.5m at 33 or about 260k USD 25 years later !!

What would 160k have bought you in US real estate back in the 80's ??

Instead of using overseas funds you were paying 14% mortgages (sounds like a great deal).. Again I am not sold.. You got my message wrongly. I should have expanded my source of finance. I only borrowed from a bank for the first condo of 3.5m and paid the then bank rate of 14% for the first three years using my income source plus rental to repay the bank. Thereafter, all my rental income were used to buy new opportunities and never borrowed again.

Also would you not owe large chunks of capital gains tax on any sale ?? Since I bought that 3.5m unit, I never sold a single unit of my condo. The tax on gain is minimal even if I have sold my unit. I have no desire to sell any units now with the rising in rental income and fantastic yield.

I did 35% on my assets last year, outside of thailand, and any of them can be sold on a phone call.. I like that flexibility. I like that very much but not in my case when I sold mine in San Fran, I had to go to the States to conclude the whole deal. I now have no interest in US or UK because I am more at home with the Thai market without having to learn more on the US or UK which would be quite time-consuming. Each individual has different comfort of investment.

Hi Irene

Enjoyed reading your post. I like your frank and sensible explanation, especially concerning investing in the USA where one can be bitten/beaten too. You are an astute investor who puts her/his money where the mouth is. Thanks.

Hi ya5702,

Thank you for the kind words. You don't know what it means to me in this sea of cynics. I sometimes doubt my thought as well.

Just curious.. What was the baht/Dollar rates when you bought those condos..

I had a chat with an ex services guy who bought pattaya condos back in the 80's.. He had hardly made much when you looked at what he spent in dollars to buy them.. And that was with a multi decade run.

Good point. In 1981 and 1982, it was in the range of Baht22-23 to a dollar. For December 2004 and January 2005, 39 to 39.5 to a dollar.

In my case, I use funds originated from my own income in Thailand and Thai bank loans (I used to pay market interest rate of 14% for my first condo).

Yes, your ex services guy must have lost hefty sum of exchange losses while having baht capital gain. He brought in dollars in 80's with Thai baht worth of only 23 and if he remits his baht value on the property, he has to convert at the rate of 33.5, he would receive lesser dollars. So from your observation.if you think baht will strengthen further from 33 to 30, then you will have the gain on exchange in future. But if you think baht will weaken from 33 to 36, then don't invest in Thailand. With the ongoing credit crunch in the States and pressure from the US government on China to strengthen the yuan, I venture to guess that the Baht is more likely to strengthen to below 33.

Financially, it may be comfortable for you to retire in that range. However, you need to be more certain of your equity investment of 85%. Any losses on this hefty portion could put you in a poor house, e.g. in Enron stocks.

Aside from your question, you should ask yourself whether you would be really happy and contented in retirement. Or, do you mean your retirement is not really a retirement but more like finding a new horizon. Will you be bore to death in Pataya or Chiangmai to let life go by. I have seen another thread for Pataya with the question of being bore with meaningless life.

Anyhow, I admire your question and enjoy reading all the thoughts.

My replies are in bold type:

It sounds like you bought property at a cherry time..back in the early 80's before the first property boom (and bust) and before expats were flocking to Thailand as the new retirement/holiday home haven. Congrats. You bought low and now you're selling /leasing high to others. Then again I could have bought 3.78 million baht (what you paid for that first condo) worth of microsoft stock in 81 and be a multi-millionaire right now. On hindsight, I can also pick other stocks to beat the return on microsoft stock.Of course there are cherry pickings out there but you have to wade through much much more detritus and risk. If you compare risk vs reward, Thailand is a very poor investment for new property owners. Just to disprove your theory, I bought one condo of 102 sqm in January 2005 for Baht 6.3 million (Baht62,000/sqm) and now earning rental income of Baht 65,000/m, the gross yield of 12%. Another unit I bought second-hand in December 2004 of 173 sqm for Baht 13.05m and now earning rental income of Baht 80,000/month, the gross yield of 7%. (My risk of these two investments would be when Thailand has become a closed country like Burma and no expatriates would ever enter the kingdom).

Right now real estate valuations in Thailand are NOT realistic and I haven't seen anyone provide any data to backup that Thailand is somehow better insulated from the property bubble that the U.S. and the U.K. is experiencing. You are right that there are no data to prove anything in Thailand. But even with all the data these wise guys came out in the States, you still have that unprecedented crash in the property market never experienced before in the western world. In Thailand, you go by gut feelings that have served us very well here, thank you! Matter of fact i'd say the potential for a massive blowout is much more of a risk in Thailand than anywhere else. Also, high end condo units are closing in on being comparable in price to parts of the U.S. Which is fairly ridiculous considering the reasons i've outlined in a previous post. Thailand value of property has never come down but they do have property unrealisable that are supported by financial institutions and developers. With the price I paid for my latest unit of Baht140,000/sqm, you would need at least ten times that amount to buy a unit near to the central park. You would also have hard time to find a property in the US that gives you a yield of more than 5%. I invested in San Francisco and London many years ago and withdrew from the market because of the poor yield. They then believed in the benchmark yield of more than 3% as reasonable. For me, anything lower than 5% is a miss.

A person would still get a better return speculating on property in the U.S. (now that the bubble is deflating in the U.S.) or playing the stock market. I started my investment in the US stock market and subsequently the Thai market and diverted a portion of my fund to the property whenever I see an opportunity. The recent subprime crisis in the States does prove that the Americans can be just as bad as the Thais or even worse when one reads of the ways the Americans conduct their mortgage businesses.

From my 30-year investment experiences and reading of so many books and magazines on finance, economics and investments, I have refined my approach to four bullet points. First is to pick the right type of stocks and assets to invest in. The choice is based on businesses or property that are somewhat "franchise" or "moat-like", in which competitors cannot easily break in. With that, I would pick property that can withstand bad time, such as near to mass transit, shopping area and park. Second is timing. This is the most important among the four. It is no point to be right on the choice but bad timing in buying at the height. I am quite good in selling because I follow Ben Graham's motto, "I make money by selling too soon". But I tend to buy too soon. This is the part to distinguish a boy from a man. You put your money and commitments where your mouth is. Third, I always diversify, not relying on one stock or one property. The experience of Enron's employees always stay in my mind. Fourth is education. I read asian wall street and herald tribune daily and investment magazines of all sorts such as economist, time and newsweek, smartmoney and watch cnbc and bloomberg regularly. I am good in distinguishing the sterotyped advices of those wise guys from those gem advices. I always ask myself what sort of gains these wise guys have made in their life time with their talks or write-up of certainty of the trend in the future.

I am a long term investor in condominium units and started in September 1981 with a four-room apartment of 250 sqm for the price of Baht 3.78 m. (Baht 15,000 sqm) and after 25 years are still earning a rental income of Baht 58,000/m now or a gross yield of 18%. Another one I bought in 1982 at the price of Baht 2.2 m. because the developer felt sorry for us in buying the first unit at the then highest price. This unit is now earning Baht 55,000/m, a gross yield of 30%. The selling price for each unit now is in the range of Baht 7.5m to Baht 10m.

I also got a few duds that I cannot find a tenant. But on the whole, I am quite pleased for diverting part of my investments from stocks to property.

I have no intention of being boastful on my records but I am weary of all these wise guys knocking down the prospect of condo investment in Thailand without having the in-depth knowledge of the market. In this forum, I was called a liar and accused of being in an estate agency to drum up the market for my benefits. I couldn't care less whether you believe me or not or buying or not buying but just like to give the fact of another side of the coin. The whole thing depends on luck and ability to pick the right location and potentials. We have made 10% error of our judgement on the management of two condos. Our investments are mainly in Rajdamri, Ploenchit, Sukhumvit 5 to 63. Oddly enough the ones that are dud are in Ploenchit and Rajdamri. Our property now are mainly near to the BTS stations. Our latest investment of a shoebox sized of two bedrooms overlooking a park and a lake and near to Emporium gives us a gross rental yield of 7% and net yield of 5%. The price we bought was really high and afraid of also making a mistake. But being a long time resident in London before, we realise the potential of being near to an underground station and just hope for this benefit to become huge eventually.

For a change, it is good to hear something nice about Thailand.

I beleive that originals are required by the land office to register a condo.

I think you'd be better being in possession of originals, my bank has always issued originals to me, even had to fill them out myself one time. If they won't for some reason then the certified copy as Irene suggests would be best.

By the way you don't have to prove that the money came from overseas to buy land (as you cannot own it) or a car, not sure about a house though.

Thanks for this and thanks to to other members who have replied.

I thought the main reason for these Exchange forms was for IF you at a later stage, wished to take monies out of Thailand. These would be needed to prove the monies came into Thailand from Overseas to avoid taxes etc.

Are these forms not the Tor Tor 3 (or equivalent) everybody talks about needing should you take money back out of Thailand?

My Bangkok Bank Branch seemed to think they are.

Regards

Dave

Your understanding is correct since your question was in respect of bringing in money to buy a house or a car and not a condo. The form is useful only when you want to take back the money. You need to give a proof that previously you have brought in the money and the party you have to prove to is not the Bank of Thailand but your own commercial bank.

Are they generally most in favor of left wing economics like taxing the wealthy & powerful, more equal resources, etc? I'm left wing myself! so I'm just wondering if Isan is generally known as the most left wing bloc of Thailand?

Not in my book. They are mostly lack of any idealogy. They are true buddhists and even poor but relatively contented. The left wing of your category are mostly in the central and Bangkok area and tend to be well educated.

The basic Economic Principle of Supply and Demand determines the cost of the condos and as it does with almost everything else. If there were not buyers at the present prices then the prices would drop until the buyers started to buy.

Yes, that makes sense. But the whole question is whether the existing demand sustainable or whether it is only a temporary rise forced by fictitious demand.

Take your lawyer's advice which sounds to me as practical. The debt is disputable since it is not certain whether the services were professionally rendered. The debts could be time-barred eventually.

Do Condos Seem Over Priced In Bkk To Anyone Else???

Compared to , London , Moscow , New York ,Sydney , Hong kong , Singapore , we all know the answer , if the question is are they overpriced for a City like Bangkok ? Well depends how you look ,

If straight out Rental return , they look pretty good ,

Capital Gain , Not as optimistic due to New property always being the flavor of the day .

As long term to live in, they are Ok, something decent will still set you back thb 20m - 30m and more for a bit more room .

But in the general sense i think they are being pushed up too fast in Asking Price , eg off the plan for thb 90psm them when still not complete asking Thb 130psm , lots of examples , Plaza Athenee , The Met , Icon ?? ( corner Sathorn , next to Chong Nonsi Station ) , etc

I think if there was a more stable and open governemnet with friendly foreign investor polices the prices might stack up better,

Well said!

The photocopies should be sufficient as long as it has a referenced number. The idea is for you to refer to that as evidence of inward remittance whenever required. If you are still uncomfortable, try to get a bank official to sign on your copy as true and correct and duly stamped with the bank's name.

No, the department has no power to access to your accounts with a bank. But if the company or the person is involved in money laundering business or matters under investigation by the special branch called DSI, then the DSI, part of the justice department, has the right to the access. Crimes under Money Laudering Act fall under this special power of DSI.

If rental is paid by the company to a landlord, then that payment shall be regarded as that employee's income. So in short, there is no tax break in having an employer paid your rental.