Irene

zazaza,

below you should find it of interest:

Thailand Forum _ Real Estate, housing, house and land ownership _ Registered An Usufruct

Posted by: crewcut 2007-11-04 09:47:58

Last week I went to the land office and enquired about the possability of having a usufruct contract made between me and my wife with regards to a property we have recdently built. At first the gentleman we spoke with was unsure of how to help us, my wife then mentioned the Thai name for this process; sit-ti-gep-gin.

We made the relevant photo copies (pasport, ID, marriage, tabien ban and letter of permission to build a house on the land). The contract used was a standard document which allows me to stay in the house rent free until I die. It turns out that I was the first foriegner to ask for this to be done at their office and because of this they had to check the manuals of how to put this together and the paper work needed.

Now whether this standard contract is as full proof as one a lawyer may have drafted I don't know, but after researching this matter and thinking of my own requirements I decided following this process was the best option for me.

My wife and I have been married for 10 years and I have no reason to belive that she would ever be unfair with me if we were to split. All I wanted was something legal and official done with her approval so she would understand/think that I have rights on the property also. Knowing her, if we did split she would never question this document let alone hire a lawyer to do it for her.

You may ask why did you bother going through this process if you trust her and have no reason to doubt her future fairness?

Well the whole process at the land office took just over an hour to sort and cost me 75 baht.

I had quotes from several lawyers ranging from around 10,000 for a contract drawn up and telephone support to 70,000 for a lawyer to come with me and do the process for me. Like I said before I'm sure these contracts may have had more clauses etc, but in my situation the do-it yourself-option was the best solution.

I would encourage others who are thinking about getting an usufruct to inquire about this same process and save a few baht. If you do want other clauses added have them prepared ahead of time and expect the process to take a bit longer.

Raro,

I don't think it is this weekend. It applies nationwide next Friday through Sunday (the election day).

They are quite safe and under control and supervision of the Securities Exchange Commission of Thailand similar to SEC in the States. The Thailand SEC is untra-cautious. Record-wise, no failure has yet happened. The return on equity has been impressive except a few that invested in small and medium sized companies fund fared below par. Go for funds that attached to SET 50 companies. Extreme rise happened in 2003 when 114% gain occurred. The only snag I see is when in crisis they tend to go down quicker than self-investment because of the run by the unitholders who are really small holders and more frightened than the seasoned investors. The Retirement Mutual Fund and Long Term Fund in which unit holders have to continue investing until retirement fare well because they have to bite their bullets and not allowed to sell in order to qualify for tax allowance of a maximum sum of 300,000 baht each. The return of that 30% is normally related to this retirement fund. This is an indication that to make money in Thai stock exchange, stick to top 50 companies and buy them when the atmosphere is bad.

However, I prefer to recommend one and only exchange traded fund in Thailand called TDEX which is a reflection of SET 50 companies in which fees are low and yet the risk is similar to a mutual fund. The rise and fall of TDEX follow the SET 50 index. The secret is the timing to buy. I normally accumulate whenever there is bad news like today. I sense that in the long run equity like TDEX would fare better than fixed income instruments or bank deposits. I remember reading of a story of one American lady who religiously bought General Electric monthly on a certain date irrespective of the price quoted. Upon her death, her wealth on that investment astonished the world and the return was similar to that return earned by Warren Buffett. (But it is a bad example for lack of diversification. Luckily for her, she picked GE. Just imagine if it was Enron).

No outright majority-winner of more than 240 seats is expected. Coalition is likely. It depends on who will lead the coalition either the Democrats or PPP.

If the end result is the Democrats, then that should be good news for the Stock Market because they are the least objectionable. Will they give a good impression of political stability? Yes, if they join in with Chart Thai (Banharn's party). Another plus is the Democrats are more friendly to foreigners and they have voiced for relaxation of FBA. They have good team members in economic world and mostly believe in globalisation.

But if it is led by PPP, then the immediate reaction to the Stock Market would be the fear of Thaksin's return and the army backlash. There would be more uncertainty under this formula. From all the known polls, PPP would be the party with most seats and morally they should be the party to form this coalition government first. If they are unable to do so, then the Democrats would have a go. Knowing of the wealth and the craftiness, I fear that PPP is likely to lead the formation first. That would not be good to the Market in the short run or even in the long run because of the pervasive climate of conflicts.

In sum, I would not invest in the Market with the hope of the coming election unless Chart Thai or Pue Paendin announces prior to election date of committing to go with the Democrats.

The formation of the coalition is the most crucial point to watch before one commits to the Stock Market. This may present an opportunity if there is any sign at all to favour the Democrats.

I still see shanty towns in bkk, in fact there is a very poor neighbourhood just down from soi ruam rudee or how about the sess pitt of petburi opposite the other side of central chidlom.

You really feel that a few mass transport developments will paper over the constant cracks in thai society, may help for a select few but in no way will thailand become a 1st world country in our lifetimes, and isnt that the dream of these property developments, that one day soon if you buy NOW that bangkok will fulfill this dream of improving its status to that of the ist world.

Singapore and Hong Kong are already there in the ist world, they achieved their goals, and continue to strive for a better status

Is that really the case for bkk? Will their ever be a stable political climate to achieve a continued march to enhance bkk's status as 3rd world into 1st world?

So this is the reason why rent has always been the far better choice than to buy in bkk, Its cheap and the supply oustrips the demand by a large portion, so the rental prices will always be amazingly cheap

I could be proven wrong in the next 100 years, and think ooh why did i buy that pad in hk or singapore and not in bkk, but you know i dont think that will happen

This forum was headlined as "The Lakes-Whats A Good Price?" and the question was posed by chayatom on November 12 as follow:

"I am looking at buying a unit in the The Lakes Condominium as from what i have seen it offers the best combination of location,layout,facilities,management,etc.

I have seen two 109m2 +/_ units and the asking price is c15m or roughly 135,000 m2 - they ae nice lake view apartments but the price seems over the top to me - i thought the going rate should be closer to 115k per m2.

Has anyone actually bought a unit here recently and if so would you mind telling how much you paid for it?"

Your response to the question is simply not to buy any property in Thailand because of the existence of the poors and Thailand's prospect of becoming a first world member is dim. Hong Kong and Singapore have a better prospect. I respect your view but does that respond to the member's question? I leave that to other readers to judge. This reminds me of Sir Winston Churchill responding to a leftist member of parliament that a fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

What a bunch of crap this post is.

This is a long story, so I will only give a few of the details.

I had a life threatening infection two months ago and went to Bangkok Pattaya Hospital. I stayed at Bangkok Pattaya Hospital one week with two operations and Sathip Navel Hospital four weeks with three operations.

Thank god I am OK now.

I keep most of my funds in Siam Commercial Banks money market account that takes essentially two days to get access too. The day I went into the hospital I transferred one million to my savings account. But, the hospital does not have a branch there, so I could only have access to 20,000 a day through the ATM without going to the bank. I with drew 80,000, all I had in the savings account at the time I checked into the hospital. I showed the hospital all of my bank books which they made copies of.

Upon checking in I gave the hospital the 80,000 and had an operation two hours latter. I had another operation one day latter and was in ICU for five days. Each day, despite the fact I could not move on my own and when the staffed moved me I screamed in pain they took me to the ATM to get 20,000.

I needed special oxygen therapy treatment which I authorized, but the hospital would not do. After I left the ICU my doctor came in and told me the hospital had told them to stop treatment until I provide more funds. By this time I probably had paid them 50% of the bill. I had him contact the cashier's office to get me to the bank so I could withdraw more funds so I could stay alive. The cashier's office then arranged an ambulance to take me to the bank where a bank officer meet me laying down in the bed in the back of it and I withdrew enough funds to cover my bill and any future treatment and went back to the hospital.

If all of that was not bad enough the girls from the cashiers office would come by three to four times a day, even in the middle of the night waking me up requesting funds despite the fact they were very aware of my financial situation. Here I am close to death and I am being made to feel like bill collectors are hounding me.

From the post on this site I knew that Sathip Hospital was only an hour away and had a great reputation. I transferred to Sathip Hospital and gave them 100,000 deposit upon checking in.

I can not state in strong enough terms my appreciation to the doctors and nurses that took care of me there. I highly recommend the hospital. Hopefully somebody will read this post and remember it, like I did and realize there are other options besides Bangkok Pattaya Hospital if you are ever in need of extensive treatment.

The one week at Bangkok Pattaya hospital with two operations and 5 days in the ICU cost me 350,000. After I got out of ICU and was in a regular room without any special treatment the bill ran about 20,000 a day.

The four weeks, three operations and 6 days in ICU at Sathip hospital ran 130,000.

Bangkok Pattaya Hospital made me feel like a dead beet that could not pay his bills. Sathip Hospital saved me life and treated me with the utmost respect.

Guess where I am going the next time I need medical treatment and hopefully after reading this post you will do the same.

Good to know. May I ask when was that?

Binkie,

Your writing moved me and showed your good sense of fair play.

well done Irene at 10m its a good buy.

...now i am still waiting for somebody to answer my question as to where is the next Lakes?....with so much development underway in Bangkok there must be some good buys out there - anyone want to offer some suggestions ???

OK I will bite - I will make a forward prediction - The next Lakes will be the abandoned construction just next door, providing of course the construction company (still probably in deep freeze) gets its act together. The structure is all there and the concrete reinforcing seems to have been added.

Same height, same size (ish) as The Lakes.

"That abandoned construction just next door" to the Lakes is no longer abandoned. It has become an office building called "Column" and reasonably occupied by many companies led by MFC Assets Management Co. The top portion of the building with the entrance at the back is a serviced- apartment section (not yet opened). At the side of this building is an incomplete car-park building with Foodland on the ground floor. The car parks are well used by office workers.

"but looking at different agent's websites doesn't really tell if it's a good property or not."

If you call them, they can tell you.

I have, but it seems many don't know that much. Some of them haven't even seen the properties they are listing on their own website... It's difficult to trust someone trying to sell you something they haven't even seen with their own eyes... wouldn't you agree?

And if an agent has a property listed are they going to tell you that it is in a less desirable area, that it is overpriced or that people don't like to rent there? I think the response would be more that it is a great location, a steal of a deal and you will have to beat all the prospective renters off with a stick.

jstumbo,

You are absolutely right. It is YOUR judgment that counts. Your right judgment is based on correct and fair information. In Thailand, you have to sieve through all sorts of information that are good and bad. The most annoying ones are those talking out of their hats and with a lot of adjectives.

As to those estate agents, all you need to do is to give an impression of disbeliefs that could force them to come out with more information that you may have not thought of before. Tell them of your disbeliefs at the end of the day, by then you might get an offer of another "good" one. Just like renting an apartment in Washington or London, an agent will show you the worse one first and with your patience you eventually might get the best in the area.

Good point from Financial Times but they are talking about the conditions in UK where the property value has gone beyond any expectation. Now it is due for correction.

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pkrv,

Same view as the others. I just did mine yesterday through the seller's estate agent with no charge. Your concern is simply to ensure that the specific property as mentioned in the power of attorney coincides with your purchase agreement, e.g. title deed number, unit number etc. These details are on top part of the poa. (You don't need to read Thai to check that). To safeguard your payments, have your cheques photocopied and get them to sign on the copies as acknowledgment of receipts of the cheques. Keep these copies in case of need.

any info about the property in pattaya.i was wondering if the value of property has gone up in the past year?

i dont think anything has gone up anywhere in thailand ,if anything its gone down slightly.

How about petrol and construction materials? What does that mean? It means that future cost of assets that are dependent on use of fuel is likely to go up. How high? Depending on abilitiy of consumers to pay.

The price was 10m and at a lower floor. The view is terrible, blocked by another residential condo. It is at the back, (so-called city view and not the lake view) but from this unit you don't even see the skytrain. Furthermore, the flooring needs to be completely redone. The previous owner was well to do and not desperate in selling. Then why bother to buy? The answers are plenty, near to five high-rise business buildings, opposite a large-sized park with comfortable bridge to cross, situated on the eight-lane major road, the building is next to Foodland (I saw one American lady having a Foodland trolley delivered by a foodland staff while she walked leisurely carrying her new born baby to the lifts), a comfortable walking distance to skytrain and underground station-Asoke, one does not even need to own a car in Bangkok just like those expats in Hong Kong, guards calling taxis for residents, managed by a reliable agency with happy staff, a large number of expat owners who are active and care very much of their investment value and efficient management. We don't know whether we will ever have these sorts of advantages again in another location. We believe in diversification and do not like to focus on one building but the advantages here were too tempting for us to ignore.

Irene

To whom do you rent most of your condos? Farang/Foreigners or Thai?

No Thai. All are to foreigners, American, Japanese, and Korean.

I wouldnt be that surprised if all those new condos in Suk 24 - that are now selling for Bt120k/sqm - are selling for Bt100k/sqm in 10 years time.

Some of them are selling at Baht100K now, (See Post Classified of today)

Hamstead,

My comments in bold type:

No i dont believe a word you are saying irene, about the offer on your 26 year old condo Thank you for calling me a liar. Since I am not in an estate agency business, I ask myself what do I gain from this participation. Then, I realise that because of the wise and theoretical comments like yours

The pricing on many secondhand condos of the older buildings runs at sometimes a 50% difference in the same buildings, even for accounting for the difference in the owners management of the unit, it just shows that estate agencies struggle to find a suitable price structure of older units That is correct. Doesn't that support my experience in getting a better price than others. I am not interested in finding a suitable price structure to fit into a theory. But I am interested in getting good return on my investment under a given situation. One unit at that 26 year building was put under public auction by the executors of the Bankruptcy Court a few months ago. To my surprise, it could command Baht 6 million even though the unit has never been humanly touched for 26 years.

demand helps the price structure, the price structure of the new units is simpler due to the amount of buyers interest, but where is the buyers interest in the older buildings? Not as many as the brand new buildings but they are there especially those who find the location near to their work place or near to train stations or invest inexpensively for handsome rental income.

the real answer is that no-one really knows the state of the secondhand condo market in bkk in the older units You are right there are no standard prices because of more variety of quality and types of owners than the London market.

Lets not forget that the hamptons, fullertons, lakes, etc of today will be in 10-15 years looked upon as older buildings, with old designs and so-so managment At the Lakes (also another old building in your eye), there was one advert in the Post offering to sell at Baht 70,000 per sqm. There were five responses to that estate agent to buy the property. The quickest one got the deal. To you, that person may regret thereafter but she ventured to take the risk given that all the ideals being there- on the main road, opposite a park, next door to Foodland, walking distance to sky and underground train stations, (Asoke), and near to four high-rise office buildings. Her risks are earthquake and, for some, the price might be too high even though she can earn a return of 8% if she can find a tenant.

in terms of structural soundness, resale, rentability...

i know this is a bit vague... but are there any rules of thumb regarding what age building is still ok to buy a condo in..

assuming decent management and upkeep, and some cosmetic rennovations from time to time.

do buildings reach an age where they need to be or must be demolished?

If you want to look at old buildings that have withstood the time well, then go and have a look at buildings along Rajdomnern Avenue and around Democracy Monument. Those were built just before the Second World War. Almost 70 years old.

Another one is at the Chinatown, a nine-floor building (used to be the highest in Bangkok), near to Texas car parks. Again another pre-war building still used today.

Just for a giggle go look at a few units in the Taiping Towers, Soi Ekkamai one of the very first condos in BKK. I wouldn't rent there much less buy. The floor plans are horrible - the columns are massive - about 2 meters a side. The decoration is hit & miss. This one should be torn down but probably won't.

According to the latest report from the Executive Committee of the Condo as presented to the General Meeting of Co-owners last week, in Nov. 2006, the Condo has 313 units of which 284 units are occupied by co-owners (136 units) and tenants (148 units) or 91% occupied. Does that look to a fair-minded person as buildings due to be torn down immediately.

The following are my comments in bold type:

Many buildings which are over 10 years are starting to show their age in bkk if you compare them to the new condos of the day

the only viable option for those who have invested/speculated many years ago in condos is to rent the units out for any source of income,

as to selling these old units, well lets just say that a 26 year old building might price a unit at 10mill but unless the seller had a lucky day or some extremely well informed contacts to buyers by having very close contacts with real estate agents, then the chance of actually receiving 10mill are pretty farfetched The 10m baht unit is a four-bedroom plus four bathrooms unit with an area of 250 sqm. I was offered for one unit at 10m and declined because of the attractive rental of Baht 55,000/month. Baht40,000 sqm was too low for me.

they are many real estate agents who are honest with their backgrounds and those who are hiding their backgrounds on this tv section.I am no estate agent and do not need to hide my status as an estate agent and I am not in the market to sell my property now. I am in a buying mood. I sold my last unit two decades ago. You can read all my responses of this forum on all my subjects I have responded in the past year and will realise my bona fide status.

so any positive, feel great about the purchase comments by other posters should be taken with a pinch of salt on the old second hand condo market My response was made with cautionary notes depending on quicksilva's comments.

old buildings are struggling to find buyers.Depending on locations and management.

look at president park, it must be over 10 years old, well mainted, well serviced building and yet they are quting 42k a sqm for units and yet in the same soi the new buildings are fetching 120k sqm, i think the price says it all on the older units. The demand in bkk seems soley on the new units and the old units are just hoping to find a buyer Compare this with my 10m unit.

and has there are very little facts or figures for the secondhand condo market in bkk, then it leaves the new buyers of the day confused and gullable and available for the easy sell by the various property agents in bkk I cannot help people with such an attitude.

Adding to quicksilva's good comments, I own four units in a condo building built 26 years ago and now still earning an average Baht 55,000/month per unit. My cost price ranges from Baht2.2m to Baht 4.7m. When will it be demolished? I don't know but I know that I can sell each unit for Baht10m. now. I am not saying all buildings will be like this condo. But do take notes of quicksilva's comments which are really true. Personally, I am more concerned with a building that is not substantially occupied, i.e. dilapidation than aging of the building.

Likely to be up because of higher construction cost.

There's a unit at The Lakes for sale today in the Bangkok Post classifieds for only 70,900 Bt/m2 (advertised by M. Ocean Real Estate).

Lazy Sod,

Thank you. It was mighty kind of you to advise.

Sorry that I wasn't clearer about the type of info I was seeking. I guess I can understand why you've bothered to make a derogatory remark about not having a lot of imagination. I agree that the benefits you've mentioned are obvious ones and require no imagination at all.

pattyboy,

You are really a forgivable person. No, you are right to ask your question and I find the derogatory remark was unwarranted. People who ask questions of any level are wiser thereafter. I prefer to be a dumb person than being a wise guy because I don't have many people to compete with and being less aggressive in my attitude to my fellow men.

Only anecdotal evidence here, but my rent remained unchanged for two years, and I doubt would have increased. During that time, the landlord made major repairs to the air/con. My current landlady will probably never increase my rent, but she expects me to pay for certain maintenance, while she pays for certain other upkeep.

I have been a landlady for decades and have increased rental yearly except in 1997 and 1998. Not a single one has moved out because of the increase. But I set aside a 10% sum for every 3-year renovation just like all the hospitality industry does. In this way, I maintain my property standard and my reputation.

10% is too big a tip, especially in a western restaurant where the bill will be higher, I tip everywhere, but relative to western standards, not that much, bear in mind that 250 baht a day is a good working wage!

In my personal view, a person should have an opportunity to improve his/her lot in life with a good, honest effort. A "working wage" of 250 baht a day is a life sentence to subsistence level living. I suppose a girl could become a whore, and make more. A guy could sell drugs, or steal from drunks, and make more. What's wrong with giving those who work at decent jobs an opportunity to make more?

IMO, saying that "250 baht a day is a good working wage" is like saying, "As long as you feed the animals, that's all they need."

Very well said! I thank the Lord for people like you otherwise there won't be much future for an average man.