Irene

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The Thai wordings mean "Purchase and Sale Document". If it is an official document signed by a land official as a witness with red emblem, then it is an official agreement of buying and selling between two parties for transfer of an official title deed or nor sor sam. Presumably, there should be an official title deed or nor sor sam with your wife's name stated as the latest owner and the deed is now in your hand.

As to the other three questions, we would need to know of the contents and also whether the document is witnessed by a land official. I wonder whether your wife is telling the truth. Your explanations sound odd.

On top it reads:

หนังสือสัญญาเช่า

The Thai words mean "Lease Document", no more and no less.

If you are the Landlord then I agree with your comment. I was looking at things as the Rentor. If I were the Rentor, I simply would not agree to the clause you refered to. I would not agree to requiring the LL's consent to a sublease. Per the Thai Civil and Commercial Code, a sublease or an assignment on uses of property is not possible unless specifically stated in a lease. If a lessee subleases or assigns the right without the lessor's agreement, the lessor may terminate the lease. The clause I referred to was a repeat of a legal standing as to make the lessee aware of this restriction. Even without this clause in a lease, section 544 of the Code is still applicable and you cannot override the legal requirement through your one-sided intention as a lessee.

A similar subject. As a LL you would never agree to allowing a Rentor to sublease at a rent higher than that the LL is receiving (because, why not rent it yourself for the higher amount if you know you can get it ). As a Rentor I say that has nothing to do with the LL. ?? As a LL, I will never allow any sublease or assignment blindly without knowing who they are first. So, if you do that, it would be a cause for me to terminate the lease and claim for damages.

And while it may not be common, the lease agreement I have for my house in Bangkok both gives me the absoulte right to sublease, without the consent of the LL, and the right to sublease at a rent higher than that I pay the LL. That is an agreed intention concluded by BOTH parties and within the letters of the law.

But in that case I am the Rentor, as the LL I would never agree to those clauses. So what my case proves, if it proves anything, is that in contract negotiations I had the stronger bargaining power, which is reflected in the terms of the agreement. It just proves that to sublease legally, you need a lessor to agree with you first. Also, it just proves that you have a better bargaining power than the lessor.

WilliamJarvis's contention:

"^exactly proves my point.

The words I would have used (quickly banged-up) are:

"Has the absolute right to assign or sublease the Premises for the remainder of the Contract Term without the need of the consent of the Landlord or Premises owner." [certain defined terms therein being assumed]

Different ways of looking at things."

My previous contention was that the below clause is common in all leases:-

"(g) Not to assign or sublet the Premises or any part thereof without the written consent of the Landlord;"

Now you tell me that "no, the agreement normally does not include the above clause, unless requests it"

Why should a lessee request such a clause when it is at his detriment?

No lessor in his right mind would give a lessee a free hand of picking his sublessee to take possession of his property by granting his lesseee " the absolute right to assign or sublease the Premises for the remainder of the Contract Term without the need of the consent of the Landlord or Premises owner." [certain defined terms therein being assumed].

Because it is a prime privilege of a lessor to pick and chose a character of his tenant and certainly as a seasoned lessor, I will never pass this right absolutely or otherwise to my lessee to pick a sublessee without my approval. Therefore, WilliamJarvis's contention is unusual and rare. I have yet to see one lease in that form of absolute permission

As a long time reader and sometimes poster, "user" of land owned by my wife i find it amazing how many times this "30+30+30 years lease" is mentioned.

Even more amazing is that people seem to get these leases. If you are wel informed you will NEVER do this as it is not guaranteed.

My intention for this thread (Thread is a big word, this post should be enough) is to

END this SCAM!

So please don't try to defend this "30+30+30 years lease", you will only make a fool of yourself. On second thought, yes defend it, then at least we know you are talking BS and all the rest you say can be ignored.

First things first, the lease itself:

Be sure the land title is "Nor Sor Sam", "Nor Sor Sam Gor" or "Chanote". All other lower titles can not register a lease.

Make sure you register the lease! Otherwise it is only enforceable for a maximum of 3 years.

If the land is sold to a new owner the lease is transfered with all the rights for the one who leases. (There is a catch!)

So far so good.

Time for some negatives.

We have to make a distinction between "real lease rights" and "non lease rights".

NEGATIVE NUMBER 1.

--------------------------

A renewal clause is a "non lease right"!

This means that when the land is sold to another this renewal "right" is lost.

An example to make it more clear for the people who are doubtfull.

You lease land for 30 years and make an extra clause for a renewal. In this clause you might mention the new lease amount, up to you.

After about 20 years the owner dies. The land is now his daughters. His daughter at the end of your lease decides that it is in her best interest to not renew your lease and request you to please remove all buildings and other items within one month.

Oke another example where the owner not dies, just to be fair. First make sure the owner you lease it from is healthy and will probably live for at least 30 years.

After 30 years minus 1 week the owner starts to think about this stupid lease he signed. His land was very difficult to sell all this time it was occupied. This 'farang with his new girlfriend' that visited last week was really interested in the land. He offered 50 million cash. How to get rid of this 'renewal'. Better call a lawyer. This lawyer says, "no problem, just transfer the land to your daughter". Ah yes. The owner can sleep good again and dreams of his 50 million in the bank, and a mercedes in front of his new house.

There are so many possible scenarios to get out of this renewal right i think that the 2 easiest are enough.

NEGATIVE NUMBER 2!

-------------------------

You HAVE TO PAY RENT!

This means the money you paid when you signed this lease is for 30 years! Remember that is the maximum!

After 30 years if you are able to get a renewal you will HAVE TO PAY AGAIN!. And be sure it is a lot more than the first time. Count on at least 3 times as much, but prepare for 10 times or even 50 times.

The good thing is you will not have to worry about this "negative number 2", "negative number 1" takes care of that.

But just to make it clear it is not only a negative when it is renewal time.

If you GIVE the money to buy the land to your girl/boy friend or wife/husband so you can have a lease, you also HAVE TO pay rent.

And it should be at least the amount the landoffice valuates it for. So pay the fees, and the tax. But also to be fair, this si probably not a very high amount, but it should be calculated before you decide to buy the land.

There are more negatives, but would you decide to get this lease construction after reading the first 2!

If you are satisfied with a 30 year lease, go for it. It is as secure as it gets. But there are also negatives with this scenario. These are not 'risks' that you have with the law. But to not be to negatieve lets call them warnings.

WARNING NUMBER 1!

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You get fed up with the place. Consider your money gone. (The case when you not happily married but just lease from stranger (developer))

WARNING NUMBER 2!

-------------------------

The relationships is not what it used to be. You decide for a divorce. You leased the land so you dont need to go. But first pay the ex-partner 50% of the value of the house.

WARNING NUMBER 3!

--------------------------------

'she is NOT different!' (Oke just joking!!!)

WARNING NUMBER 4-1000!

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Read everything on this website. (And that is not a joke!!)

A good law reference is www.samuiforsale.com. Required reading!

As some other poster mentioned and asked. Yes it is the 'BIBLE on LANDOWNERSHIP for foreigners'.

There is some hope, saty tuned for another topic soon.

What do you think? Should this be pinned?

^actually, you state the agreement normally includes such a clause. All I say is that - "no, it does not", unless you request it.

WilliamJarvis,

Below is a clause of a standard lease agreement used by two leading estate agents and also used by Crown Property Bureau, all the Mall lessors and all my hundred lease agreements I have concluded with all my tenants currently and in the past and also leases that I have concluded with my lessors.

(g) Not to assign or sublet the Premises or any part thereof without the written consent of the Landlord;

Now you tell me that "no, the agreement normally does not include the above clause, unless requests it"

Why should a lessee request such a clause when it is at his detriment?

You can go to the district land department and find out whether yours is due for upgrading.

[

The agreement normally includes a condition of a sublease and subject to permission of a lessor.

Very dangerous thing to say. Under the CCC, a Lease Agreement has to expressly provide you with the right to sub-lease, otherwise you do not have that right. Not the same as other vehicles used. So, I would disagree, an agreement would not normally contain this provision, unless you pointed out that you wanted it.

WilliamJarvis,

My statement coincides with your meaning that a sublease is possible if agreeable by the lessor. That coincides exactly with the wording of the CCC. It is put there just to warn a lessee not to sublease without the lessor's permission. This is common with Crown Property's leases, Siam Square's leases and leases at all the Malls. It is also recommended to put in my clause if you are a lessor to warn a lessee not to attempt even to hide a sublease contract! What is so dangerous about that when you are saying the obvious.

Yes, that was the aim since it was made between two "independent" legal individuals.

Below is the source that you can set up your portfolio and follow up the movement. However, you need to be its customer first.

Aikido,

Thank you, a wonderful piece of information.

Mick,

Under section 544 of the Civil and Commercial Code, it is stated that:

"Unless otherwise provided by the lease contract, a lessee cannot sublet or transfer his rights in the whole or part of the leased property to a third person.

If a lessee acts contrary to this provision, the lessor may terminate the contract."

As many have already stated in the forum, if there is a clause allowing the sublease, it is still only a promise by the lessor. The lessor can still make life difficult for you by refusing to do so and leave you to take him to court for the court's order of the sublease and damages. So, you are about right, money may have to flow to the lessor to avoid a court case.

Anyway, in practice, I have never seen a permission of subleasing being incorporated in a leasing contract. Most lessors are careful of who a lessee shall be and the court in this area tend to respect the lessor's caution on the personality of a sublessee.

For whatever it is worth, the following is the observations:

I don't know whether Harrison knows something that I don't know. I have a few units along the Jomtien for personal use and find the 90% occupation rate through the year is somewhat unreasonably high for that area. Even the Oriental Hotel in Bangkok cannot achieve that. I know Jomtien has improved a lot and has a potential. But I doubt of any places in Pattaya or Jomtien of reaching 90% occupany rate throughout the year. 60% is considered as good.

You have to find out what is the catch. Have they signed some sorts of a long term contract with a few tour agents promising them that prospect.

I also don't like this 30% cut business and this partial serviced apartment concept. They are certainly not like Marriot managing apartments in Mayfair. I have never read the pamphlets of this project and from my experience I normally can tell whether it will fly. But from what you have given, I need to be comforted by other factors.

The payment plan is normal and the risk is with you for that 30% portion if the project cannot be completed due to lack of fund or other hiccups.

I used to own the Nor Sor Sam title and subsequently upgraded to chanotes. My understandings are as follow:

I have been reading this forum for some time now and researching many different areas. It is a very usefull and informative forum.

While I found several posts on land titles and changing to chanotes, I am wondering if anyone can answer the following.

We are looking to purchase some land which has the Nor Sor Sam title and can be upgraded to chanote. All the Nor Sor Sam titles are due to be upgraded nationwide but the question is "when".But we have had a few different stories relative to this.

Firstly, we were told that we could not get chanote alone, we had to wait and apply through the village chief and have several other land owners in the same area wanting to upgrade. Is this true or not ? I think this is a pressure group that may be useful but not always successful.

Secondly we were told we had to wait for the government to come to the area when they were ready to upgrade the area and this was entirely up to them, not us.Yes, I think this is the case applicable to ours. We didn't even know it was forthcoming until one fine day we received a notice from the Land Department.

Thirdly I just want to know if we can apply as a single land owner for an upgrade and pay whatever is required to get the job done without waiting for years etc. No, I don't think so unless you know of some officials who are on this job and ask them to jump the queue.

Does anyone know roughly what the cost would be for a title upgrade of this nature. I don't recall paying any fees for that upgrade.

Thank.

Anyone have a good, personal experience-based recommendation for a U.S. income tax documents preparer based in Bangkok???

That time of year is coming soon, and I could use my old tax prep CPA in the U.S. by doing everything by courier, but it seems easier and maybe less expensive to do all the prep work here, and then just mail the docs when all is done.

If you've had good experience with anyone, please post the name, location and contact phone. Thanks!!!

Just thought I would post this as a few people seemed to have got the previous post all wrong. I was not knocking all Thai hospitals. Just telling my experience of one. There were some people that had great knowledge of things medical. However there are some that felt that they had the right to just call my an idiot, or even to imply that I should go home. They had nothing to add or any suggestions as to where to find good treatment. These people I have noticed, do this alot. They continue to do it even now. Nearly got dragged into it for a while but thats what fuels there fires. Trying to knock or belittle others to make themselves feel more secure in there existence. You will see the replys come shortly. They cant help themselves. This is not an attempt at flameing. I would much prefer to read other peoples good experiences than read some old fart correcting my spelling and punctuation or someone calling me a fool for not knowing how to spot a broken collar bone etc.

Stay safe

bsided69

hellow bsided69,

You nearly brought me to tear for bothering to tell us the good experience of your friend at Ram. It is doubly so when I read of your last part as emphasised above. You must be one of the million Brits in the islands to whom I have always given great respect to for ever being sensible and nice to fellow human beings. Unfortunately, there are too many who behave otherwise once they are outside the islands and I am so glad that you are not one of them in Thailand.

I think it would be helpful and nice if you could post your letter to the Managing Director of Ram on the appreciation. This hospital is most profitable and now on the target list for being taken over by the Bangkok Hospital. There is a race in buying Ram's shares. The hospital has been well known for being inexpensive and yet efficient. It has a group of doctors (founders) who are truly devoted and least money-minded.

Thank you again for being fresh air to this forum and I will remember your message for not fueling their fires and let them disappear naturally.

I have two condos which I own but am non resident should my name be in the blue book or can it?? my wife says it has no name in it as I am not resident? Is that correct?

I have two condos which I own but am non resident should my name be in the blue book or can it?? my wife says it has no name in it as I am not resident? Is that correct?

I do not know the rules in having a non-resident on the blue book. There is only one advantage on the blue book is that, for tax purposes, you are not considered as trading in property for profit if you are on the blue book as owner for a period of one year or over. Without that, you can be qualified in that category after five years.

If you own the condo's, your name will be on the blue book, as owner, but not as resident (unless you own them through a company set-up of course).No, not correct. The blue book is given to all owners of a condo or a house but the owner's name is not stated on the blue book unless he applies with the district office for his name to be stated there as "the owner", called in Thai as "jao baan" together with the names of the occupiers, called "look baan". The name of the blue book in Thai means household registration, "tabien baan". Since one person can be in one household registration and cannot be in more than one blue book. I have plenty of houses and condos and were given one blue book each, all of them except one are blank without anyone's names.

Whether or not you are registered as resident has no influence over sale taxes As I stated before your property with your name as the owner in a title deed and also you have declared yourself with the district office as "the owner", "jao baan", then you can sell the property without being subject to specific business tax after a period of one year. If the property, though is owned by you but not named in the blue book, you have to pay the specific business tax unless the ownership has exceeded five years.

So to answer the main question posed, it has not much bearing whether or not the name is on the blue book except for saving of sale tax in some cases. I don't think it affects visa rules either (I will write what I know and only think and say what I don't know but has an inkling of the situation. That is the way to improve the forum). After reading the recent contributions, I guess the yellow tabien baan is issued for foreigners only but believe that it is still a household registration and can be qualified for the foreign owner in the case of ownership of a condo. I think the distinction of the blue and yellow is for ease of administration in controlling the electioneering lists of Thai voters who are stated only on the blue book only. Now I know what is a yellow book. AFAIK.

March 7, 2008

Finally, a reason to start drinking alcohol

By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - People who do not drink alcohol may finally have a reason to start -- a study published on Friday shows non-drinkers who begin taking the occasional tipple live longer and are less likely to develop heart disease.

backflip is correct, this is an old news. I recall having seen a few studies advising people to take a glass of wine or beer a day to keep himself healthier than those teetotalers. That was ten years ago and I have been doing so since. The only thing that may turn out to be bad is the urge you may have to have more when there is a right atmosphere which could cause you to become a binge drinker. I could not believe that wine drinking could cause you to become an alcolholic but I have known of one individual.

However, the latest study is still good because it has been based on stringent research and confirm of what we have been believing right along. Sometimes, I pity those teetotalers for having missed somethings good in life.

I have put down money on a condo via reservation fee. The developer has stated that the reservation fee I signed is non-refundable and it states that but my lawyer says it is refundable if we cannot agree to the clauses/conditions in the contract. We are at a stalemate with the conditions in the contract and although it states on the reservation fee that the amount is non-refundable I am not sure. Is there anyone who has faced a similar situation. My lawyer has told me that under thai law - the reservation fee can always be refundable if the terms of the contract cannot come to an agreement.

I understand your situation. On the day you pay a deposit of Baht50,000 or Baht100,000, you are asked to sign a memo stating that you are to sign a purchase contract within 14 days and failure to do so could cause you to lose that deposit fund. Few people would ask to see the contract on the day of paying a deposit. So, on paper, if you refuse to sign the contract on that 14th day as offered to you, your deposit could be forfeited. However, I sense that your lawyer could be correct that there was no form of contract offered to you to review, so there cannot be a binding intention on the day of paying the deposit. So whether you will get the money back or not, that depends on you clout and the concern of the developer on their goodwill. I met this situation once, when I was given two contracts to sign on the 14th day, one for buying the land and another one for hiring a construction company to build a condo. I knew that this was a tax planning scheme, so all I need to do is to tell them that I am going to report this tax scam to the authority unless the refund is forthcoming. Within 24 hours, I got the refund.

I have two condos which I own but am non resident should my name be in the blue book or can it?? my wife says it has no name in it as I am not resident? Is that correct?

I do not know the rules in having a non-resident on the blue book. There is only one advantage on the blue book is that, for tax purposes, you are not considered as trading in property for profit if you are on the blue book as owner for a period of one year or over. Without that, you can be qualified in that category after five years.

Look at the results now for the uk£ I was expecting to lose a fair bit yet today its at a 2 month high against the baht......... changed my money yesterday before BOE meeting and then the sods didnt lower the base rate as I thought they may.

That s curious.

After the 30% rule removed and the 6 minutes frenzy of late Friday when baht appreciated about 3% against any currency, baht has not appreciated these days against the dollar, despite dollar terrible performance against european currencies.

So that euro and other european currencies are up vs. the baht this week.

I think it is the market intervention of the Bank of Thailand to pacify all the Thai exporters. Wait for a few weeks, one might see the real natural exchange rate.

Thanks for the replies.

I live here for 15 years, I am married with TW and have 13 year child with her. I have a thai company since 97 and I have bought several houses and have a guest house. All bought in my wifes name.

After all these years together and having a child together I guess I know where I stand.

By the way I came here with just my clothes and my wife knew I was a poor guy so she didn't take me for the money.

I do know the pitfalls when looking for properties, have learned my lessons......I hope.

rono

I really envy you and your wife and also your kid. This is a true example of true love and not of utopian love. I wonder how many cases like you in Pataya or even in Bangkok. I also admire your TW for making the marriage successful since, like many others, she could also run away when you are getting richer. I wonder whether it was because of your company route or really teamwork.

As to the land, another route is to ask your TW to scout around the Thai press and all the lamp posts with various notices which have more potential than this forum or even the English press.

Has this village been named? I guess there is a relucantance to name as one doesn't want to destroy whatever interest there may be left in their village?? People are being screwed left right and centre when buying property in Thailand. Some of us can count ourselves as lucky when we read these stories. Today's Nation highlights the plight of some more foreigners who got f**ked over in Hua Hin. Per the article, the developer was a foreigner.

I've been lucky (comparitively) so far with my two houses I've purchased with one project really coming up with the goods. Perhaps we should be more vocal towards the developments that deliver their promises? One way or another we need to start doing something to stop these monkeys taking advantage. That is spot on.

Ideas anyone?

Supposing someone had entered into a 30 year lease agreement (which had been sold as a 30 plus etc), and then the plans for building on it went pearshaped just one year into said lease, would there be any problem getting the owner to agree to transfer to a third party?

My comments are in bold type:

From what I understand, the only thing actually registered at the Land Registry is the Landowner to the Lessee? Nothing about 30 pluses or third parties. How is this usually done? The agreement inclusive of 30 pluses or third parties is also attached to the official lease and forms part of the terms and conditions of the official lease.Must one approach the landowner and ask for their permission/agreement to such transfer? The agreement normally includes a condition of a sublease and subject to permission of a lessor.

Really strange...I searched for "Around The World In 80 Treasures" on BBCs website and there was no available audio or video download or stream. Strange.

You might search one of the many video download sites...mininova and Stage 6 are two of my favorites. Many BBC documentaries end up there for free downloading.

Just to say thank you. That will save me a lot of doles.