yaketyak

I think you were VERY lucky that you found someone willing to compromise and do most of the work whilst you were there. Those working in the field of immigration are not ususally known for their willingness to be helpful , especially when the customer is at fault (as technically you were as its your responsibility to find out when you have to apply and its all on their website quite clearly.)

A little off topic but if we didn't have this ludicrous life in the uk test you wouldn't even have been applying for FLR but ILR instead . Just another obstacle put in the way of couples wishing to settle here in the UK.

Yes, sorry I am angry, but you are mistaken when you think I/we are asking the embassy for a new visa here in Thailand again, I forgot how nasty and ignorant they are and how pathetic the Thai authorities are of protecting there own from prejudice and injustice.

On the point of complaining we appealed back in March 2006 and STILL have not got a reply, they are a nasty breed of people and what goes around comes around so I will just leave them to it and send my neice back to Vienna where they give visa's on merit, a quaint procedure but nice eh?

It is a shame that I believe (my opinion, i hope i am allowed one), that the ordinary Brit has now been brow beaten into submission and we take just about any ammount of crap thrown at us from all authorities, we find ourselves incapable of standing together in the face of injustice. Do you know this when i went to talk to the ECO when my neice was refused the first time, i asked why when my father and my 2 grandfathers died for their country did I, as their son, not have the right to have my neice come to my country if i invited her to, the reply was from the fuzzy haired ECO, "that sir is totaly irrelevent". There is an old saying where i come from, it goes, "what do expect from a pig but a grunt", now I think thats relevant.

Palusa

Well i hope you can resolve your problem in the end.

BTW be careful when making comments like your... "what to expect from a pig but a grunt" . However accurate it may be , calling the BE staff pigs is frowned upon on this forum (by the mods that is). So you are better not to do it.

Palusa,

when you are less angry and more composed, you need to go to see your MP. If your case is as strong as you think get him/her to investigate. They will if you push.

But please keep emotion out of it. The Government , through the British Embassies around the world, do not care one bit about your happiness or anyone else's . Visa and immigration are politically motivated. There are not precise rules because they need each case assessed on its merits. That way the ECO can decide if the applicant is a desirable or an undesirable and issue or refuse accordingly. Not always based on the facts , but based on who the Government wants in the country and more especially who they don't (low value individuals in their eyes , prostitutes , unemployeds etc). You get the picture.

Its a lovely idea that people can live in harmony with who they want where they want. One i agree with totally. Unfortunately those with the power most definately do not. And do remember its not a picnic for us Brits with Thai partners either. Yes we can get into Thailand , even stay pretty much indefinately, but we have to keep jumping through their hoops all the time , 90 day reporting etc. To get Thai citizenship is almost impossible for us . We are Brits so its the BE that concerns us here. I don't think they are the worst though ... i think the Americans have that honour by a mile.

It didn't help matters that her mother wrote that letter , gave them a reason to look closely and find a reason to refuse , which is very easy to do for them.

What surprises me is that people are still amazed at the rudeness of the staff at the British Embassy. You would have thought word would have spread by now and everyone know.

You must understand that they are not interested in emotional reasoning, they don't care about heart attacks and family problems or ambitions. They are purely interested in facts. They then interpret those facts how THEY want to.

If they fancy being rude there seems to be no limit to how abusive they can be and you have NO power to stop them. You are not allowed inside the compound , you cannot see whats going on. You wait outside in the hot and dusty street. Using lack of space as an excuse, they banned sponsers a few years back. If you do speak to them (on the phone) all they say is "if you don't like it ....appeal or complain". They know that this is a difficult and long process which will wear most people down. It is deliberately so.

All you can , and should do, is to complain vigourously to the ECM , at the same time to UK Visas and your local MP. Go to their surgeries and complain . State examples of the rudeness. The MP will already have heard it many times before , but by taking up the valuable time of UK Visas and your MP , by making them investigate and report back to you , you are playing your part in clogging up the system with complaints about the BE. Enough people do this consistantly and things will breakdown ... thats how change happens.

In your case i don't think you had the strongest of applications. I can see how it was easy for them to refuse. It was not neccessarily the wrong decision either , even though you won't want to hear that. HOWEVER there is no excuse for rudeness and that is what you should find the time to (to use that horrible Home Ofiice word of the moment ...) ROBUSTLY complain about.

Thanks to the OP for his elaboration.

I am NOT going to join in the condemnation of what you did, i think its a fuss about nothing. As for all the "one less in Thailand now " brigade i think they are ... no better not say it.

But i am still puzzled about one thing... even given that you were stupid enough to not carry a wad of cash with you over and above what you needed , for obvious reasons, why didn't you sort out the "payment" asap after arrest.? You have been in Thailand years so must have loads of contacts who could have got the money to where it was needed and you would have walked free. In fact you could probably have got yourself escourted to the nearest ATM anyway. And you can speak and understand Thai.!!

Can you explain why you didn't secure your own release when to do so would have been easy?

[To answer mrtoad's question as to why people aspire to come to the UK? Well firstly its language. Many can already speak English to a degree but cannot speak any other language except their own. So an obvious attraction. Also its easy to get jobs here and the pay is adequate/good.

What mrtoad might want to ponder is why so many UK citizens want to leave ? Could be because we are turning fast into a police state where govt dictate too much of your life.Many UK people i speak to , including myself, cannot wait to leave.

Well, Yaketeyak I haven't lived in the UK for nearly three years, and whilst I can agree with some of your sentiments, don't believe for one minute that the grass is always greener on the other side.

If you don't think that Thailand is a Police state then you haven't spent enough time here.

Yes mrtoad i agree , Thailand is a Police State. But the big differance is that if you break the law in Thailand you "sort it out" there and then with the Police and get on with your life. In the UK they are driven by targets and can't wait to arrest people with or without just cause.

So far only farang prince (you need to read between the insults to me to see his point) has shown a reason for caring ...in his case MONEY which was what i said it was all about in the first place. He doesn't want anyone else's nose in the trough. Which is fair enough as he developed the products. He wants all the money to himself. Very human reaction. I would do the same.

Many posters have made good points here which have made me re-think to an extent. The medical issues etc .. all very valid points.

HOWEVER i still say the people here fretting about copy DVD's and the like (copy teashirts and clothes is another one) have overreacted. I still ask , why the hel_l do they care about that? I still don't.

Sorry i must have hit the button twice... can a mod remove the identical post??

[To answer mrtoad's question as to why people aspire to come to the UK? Well firstly its language. Many can already speak English to a degree but cannot speak any other language except their own. So an obvious attraction. Also its easy to get jobs here and the pay is adequate/good.

What mrtoad might want to ponder is why so many UK citizens want to leave ? Could be because we are turning fast into a police state where govt dictate too much of your life.Many UK people i speak to , including myself, cannot wait to leave.

Well, Yaketeyak I haven't lived in the UK for nearly three years, and whilst I can agree with some of your sentiments, don't believe for one minute that the grass is always greener on the other side.

If you don't think that Thailand is a Police state then you haven't spent enough time here.

Yes mrtoad i agree , Thailand is a Police State. But the big differance is that if you break the law in Thailand you "sort it out" there and then with the Police and get on with your life. In the UK they are driven by targets and can't wait to arrest people with or without just cause.

So far only farang prince (you need to read between the insults to me to see his point) has shown a reason for caring ...in his case MONEY which was what i said it was all about in the first place. He doesn't want anyone else's nose in the trough. Which is fair enough as he developed the products. He wants all the money to himself. Very human reaction. I would do the same.

Many posters have made good points here which have made me re-think to an extent. The medical issues etc .. all very valid points.

HOWEVER i still say the people here fretting about copy DVD's and the like (copy teashirts and clothes is another one) have overreacted. I still ask , why the hel_l do they care about that? I still don't.

Isn't farting in public a capital offence in Singapore?

Isn't everything ??

Guys (and Gals), there's more at stake here than boot-leg dvds/cds (i.e. the RIAA can go fornicate with themselves!). Currently the US is THE place where new medicines are being developed.

While socialised medicine is a good idea in my view, humans are by nature largely not altruistic. If there's no profit, there's no motivation. Try and name a drug that has been recently developed in another country. Even the little blue pill which allows so many of our older TV members to enjoy the carnal pleasures that Thailand offers was developed at the behest of an American company.

With as much hatred of the US as is slung around this forum, I don't think you'd want to antagonise a country that you're so dependant upon for such a vital resource. If it can go to war over the fact that someone tried to kill its leader's pappy (and the perceived oil it was going to harvest), than what makes you think that it can't just pick its ball up and go home. And there'd be nothing you could do about it without being a hypocrite. After all, if you insist that the US should stay out of Thailand's business, you couldn't rightly tell the US it has to share discoveries based on their spent monies.

Yes i agree with this bit. A good post. My gripe is with the people here worrying themselves to death about copy DVD's. THATS the bit i don't get.

Thailand is Thailand and thats why we all love it. The fact that everything is not all squeeky clean.

I truly hope Thailand has the balls to tell the USA to F*** O**. To point out that Thailand makes its own laws not the US.

Or perhaps Thailand could return the favour and demand the US change a few things it doesn't like ...for example.. demand that the US puts Thailand on the visa waiver scheme!!

Perhaps the US (and indeed the UK) should spend more time asking the important questions like why are they amounst the two most hated countries in the world ? so much so that terrorists are trying to destroy them. Answer... because neither the US or the UK can mind their own business and let others rule their own countries how they see fit.

An amazing post. So it's okay that Thailand steals intellectual property as long as it's the USA and UK...and that those two countries should be condemned for trying to protect the intellectual property that belongs to its businesses and individuals? Truly amazing.

I'm not saying that its ok in every field of copying,(although it is in the unimportant world of dvd and music copying as far as i am concerned) i'm saying i don't care. It doesn't affect my world at all. What puzzles me is why do you care?

Thailand is Thailand and thats why we all love it. The fact that everything is not all squeeky clean.

I truly hope Thailand has the balls to tell the USA to F*** O**. To point out that Thailand makes its own laws not the US.

Or perhaps Thailand could return the favour and demand the US change a few things it doesn't like ...for example.. demand that the US puts Thailand on the visa waiver scheme!!

Your reaction is pathetic.

In exchange, I would suggest that the USA and France... refuse to sell in Thailand their new life-savings medecines ? Right ? That would be fair in your stupid and prehistoric "logic".

Furthermore, you should know that there are laws and international principles and organizations, many, that are shared by most of the countries in the world (WTO, UN, etc.).

We have rules, regulations. Yes.

In your little childish and savage world, you probably hate those words.

But those words contribute to separate the civilized world, from the monkeys that you represent.

Another one who can't answer my question... and why do YOU care?

And why is my world savage?... because i don't stick my nose into what is not my business? Because i don't sneak off to tell the police when i see street vendors selling copy DVD's. Big bloody deal. Selling copy DVD's... wow...what a crime. Really going to change the world that one isn't it?? Yet its soooo important in the petty-law abiding world of the likes of cclub75.

Thailand is Thailand and thats why we all love it. The fact that everything is not all squeeky clean.

I truly hope Thailand has the balls to tell the USA to F*** O**. To point out that Thailand makes its own laws not the US.

Or perhaps Thailand could return the favour and demand the US change a few things it doesn't like ...for example.. demand that the US puts Thailand on the visa waiver scheme!!

Perhaps the US (and indeed the UK) should spend more time asking the important questions like why are they amounst the two most hated countries in the world ? so much so that terrorists are trying to destroy them. Answer... because neither the US or the UK can mind their own business and let others rule their own countries how they see fit.

So I'll assume your from France then?

Give me a break, whilst the UK isn't the most popular, it is certainly not the worst. Anyway, it has little to do with this particular issue. I'd be interested to know though, as you consider the UK to be such a hated country, why do so many people aspire to migrate to it?

Farang Prince seems to have (deliberately?) misunderstood my post to make his point. I singled out for mention the USA and the UK as they are the countries that are usually the ones with the biggest mouths but it could apply to any country. What i am asking (and i note NO-ONE has attempted to answer) is why any of you care if Thailand copies DVD's or not. What does it matter in the larger scheme of things ? Anyone care to answer? Specifically why do YOU care...how does it change your world. Of course it doesn't and thats why no-one can answer. Fuss about nothing as usual.

To answer mrtoad's question as to why people aspire to come to the UK? Well firstly its language. Many can already speak English to a degree but cannot speak any other language except their own. So an obvious attraction. Also its easy to get jobs here and the pay is adequate/good.

What mrtoad might want to ponder is why so many UK citizens want to leave ? Could be because we are turning fast into a police state where govt dictate too much of your life.Many UK people i speak to , including myself, cannot wait to leave.

All this nonsense about "stealing is stealing" etc .....

why do you care?? what does it matter if some American firms feel miffed because they can't rip everyone off with their overpriced brand named goods , and that a few people get away with cheap, identical copies. They care because they are missing out on yet more money ...and its all about money don't forget... so i can see why they care.

But why do any of you care.?? That i don't understand.

I don't. I love the fact that despite America's (and the Uk too) interfering attempts to control the world , Thailand has and always will be a law unto themselves. Great !!

I must remember to buy more counterfeit goods when next in Thailand ... to do my bit to boost the industry.

Sorry i cannot help you with your actual enquiry , but i am astounded that carrying/buying viagra is an offence at all. I knew that in some of those loony arab countries having nurofen with you is a capital offence , but i thought Thailand was partially sensible on everything that is not the hard stuff (no pun intended)

You can freely buy the stuff in the pharmacies in Patpong yet you are saying it went to court and you were deported??

Are you talking about huge amounts or amount consistant with personal useage?

Surely after arrest you had the chance to buy your way out of the situation anyway?? If so why didn't you?

I'm amazed !!

Thailand is Thailand and thats why we all love it. The fact that everything is not all squeeky clean.

I truly hope Thailand has the balls to tell the USA to F*** O**. To point out that Thailand makes its own laws not the US.

Or perhaps Thailand could return the favour and demand the US change a few things it doesn't like ...for example.. demand that the US puts Thailand on the visa waiver scheme!!

Perhaps the US (and indeed the UK) should spend more time asking the important questions like why are they amounst the two most hated countries in the world ? so much so that terrorists are trying to destroy them. Answer... because neither the US or the UK can mind their own business and let others rule their own countries how they see fit.

CharlieB,

firstly i did say "amounst other things" .. to indicate that prostitutes are ONE of the undesirables that the Govt is obsessed with.

We cannot unfortunately discuss prostitutes on this forum , so i won't , but i will just comment that i disagree with you.

If a bar-girl put on her/ his application form PROSTITUTE under occupation , are you seriously telling me he/she would have exactly the same chance as anyone else, all other things being equal, of getting a visit visa? Because that is how your post reads. And we all know thats not the case.

I agree with the second part of your post , although its largely irrellevant to what we are discussing here.

And i do agree with your implied view which is that it shouldn't matter what you do , prostitutes included, as long as you can show a reason to return.

8 hours after posting and still no replies. There is a reason for that .

If you re-post it in English you may stand a better chance of someone helping you

Spends most of most days at home watching tv (NOT Thai soaps ... which are banned!!!) , playing on the internet and doing the household chores whilst i am at work earning the money that pays for the lifestyle. Works evenings.

And i am quite happy thats how it should be . Knows lots of Thai friends but luckily is not one of those who likes to lose everything they earn each week at the casino.

Picks me up from work when its raining... very handy

It almost sounds too obvious , but why don't YOU call the BE and ask to speak to the ECM . If busy ask when he/she will be free to take your call. If you don't want to wait ask to speak to any ECO. You may have to call a few times but you will get one quite quickly . Then you can explain that its unacceptable to be told to call back next day only to have it repeated.

Most likely they will dig out your application and give you some information .

Don't be fobbed off by the operator . Ask for the ECM or ECO. And its no good being timid with them , you need to be forceful. Polite but forceful.

Hi again,

They cannot ever take my Wife or my Son off me. Lets see them try....

Just to be sure you realize, the 20 docs should be 10 for each year, split between you both including joint docs/accounts if you have them. Remember, they're trying to catch out cheaters, not make life difficult for genuine couples. They can't admit to what number of docs might be acceptable on the phone as it would then be pointless asking for 20 on the form.

I've got friends who had only the mortgage in joint names, and for other docs probably less than you've listed who were successful. Me and my wife had less than the full 20, but have a daughter and her birth cert details and child benefit letter which must help greatly. Maybe you should call and check again in case they need the original of the birth cert as I can't remember if I gave a copy or not. From experience of myself and friends, I think your list of docs is sufficient.

drummachine,

i can understand your emotion . Its a human reaction. I too have to put my spouse through the rigours of ILR quite soon.

However keep a level head . Its no good thinking "they can't separate us ..i won't let it happen etc ".

The fact is they can if they want ... not easily but they can . And don't forget , you are dealing with people who choose that job. They love it and pursue it with vigour. Bit like traffic wardens...they love it. However , i'm sure it won't come to that.

Southerner,

its actually not that difficult to apply for a visit visa. All the criteria are laid out on the various government websites. The only bit i think you may have trouble with is that catch-all clause "reason to return". Unfortunately because there is no tick-box system but a system that allows whoever is looking at the application to use their discretion based on how they feel (which can be different to how another officer would see it on the same day ..which is absurd) , because of this there is no guarantee of success.

The system is deliberately set this way to allow discretion because , amounst other things , the Government is obsessed with keeping out prostitutes (why i don't know) so they have a system of discretion because they fear a tick-box system means a prostitute could pass it and HAVE to be given a visa. And we can't have that can we? The world would stop spinning.

To answer your last points/questions,

1)when to invite her ? there is no correct or incorrect time. You invite her when you wish to and your circumstances allow.

2)how long to ask for? Its supposed to be a holiday. There is usually a general concensus here that a few weeks , as opposed to a few months , would stand a better chance. After all a few months is hardly a holiday , more like living together isn't it. (although i'm always amazed at how long people go on holiday for ... i am obviously in the wrong job!!)

3) can you offer a bond ? Nice idea .. but NO.

Hope some of this helps.

Until you have lost loved ones to illegal drugs, you will continue to think that way.

Singapore is a prime example of an Asian country which has WON the war on drugs - because they have an honest police force and judiciary.

I doubt that Thailand will ever (at least in my lifetime) win the war because of its crooked police.

Peter

There is not a country on earth where the war on drugs (ridiculous term to begin with) has been won. Not in Singapore, Thailand or anywhere else for that matter.

Of course the wise thing to do, is to simply legalize drugs. A prime example is the Netherlands, where most drugs (not All) are legalized, or are even distributed by the government. Taking out the lucrative drug trade. Prices of drugs have been lowered, so less petty drugs related crimes as well. At the end of the day, people will always expiriment with drugs, some get addicted. But to think you can actually begin a war against drugs, and actually win this war, is a fairytale. It's simply not going to happen.

What an excellent post. Echos my feelings entirely.

When they have stopped wasting money on fighting drugs , which they cannot win , perhaps the next step will be to stop fighting prostitution and let them get on with it as well. Unfortunately, due to forum rules, i can say no more on this subject as disscussions on prostitution are banned . Wrongly in my opinion. So please no-one disscuss it . Just wanted to put my opinion and leave it there.

Just looking through the ILR form future information I guess, but call me cynical but I find it interesting how they put so much emphasis on your application fees up front and at £750 that what I call a real bargain

Far from being cynical you are simply observing reality. The fact is that all kinds of immigration applications are a great way for the government to raise money. There is no connection with the actual cost of an application. They pick a random figure as high as they think they can get away with. In the case you quote it is £750. They could just as easily make it £250 or again £2500. Rather like car tax , there is almost no limit to what you can charge and people will pay.

As they see it , they are giving you something of value (ILR has value) , and so you must pay. Actually i am surprised they don't charge more. I am sure if they did make it £2500 people would still pay. If you want to live in the UK with your loved one i don't see how you have much of a choice. You must jump through all their hoops AND pay at the end too. Thats life.

Hard to be sure exactly what you're talking about , its a bit of a garbled post.

Assuming you have a Thai friend and want her to come for a holiday in the UK then you need to apply for a visit visa.

There are hundreds of threads you can look up here to give you guideance. Also have a look on the Home Office website , and UK Visas website. They are full of information , sample forms etc which you can download and read.

Just be aware that when they say they welcome visitors to the UK they mean they welcome certain types of people , not all. And that when they say "you will need to show proof of ......" anywhere in the application , this often means a higher level of proof than you might think from reading the friendly-sounding webpages.

After hanging on for ever i finally got through to the BIA. I spoke to a lady and asked the same questions as yesterday.

Her answer was :

1) If you don't have the 20 documents you write a covering letter explaining why (we all know this already) and then the officer will use his discretion to decide . If its a refusal he can either give you another FLR or can refuse outright. There is no real guideance laid down , it really is as arbitary as how the officer feels on the day.

2) if its an outright refusal you can appeal

So there we have it . You may or may not get FLR depending on how the officer feels. I pushed her and pushed her and she was adamant there is no guideance notes , it is down to the mood and feeling of the officer dealing with it and thats that.

Charming system we have isn't it .? She had the nerve to say that if there are compelling and compassionate reasons why the refused applicant should be given a ILR then it may be given , but ...wait for it ... there is no definition of compelling and compassionate reasons and ...you guessed it ...it is up to the mood of the officer on the day !!

I have long thought our system is awful , very impersonal , very uncaring. HOWEVER we mustn't forget that at least we have a system of sorts , and its still far easier for a Thai to become an English citizen than it is for an Englishman to become a Thai one .