KamnanT

I obtained a mortgage on a condo from HSBC's Bangkok Branch. Initially I was offered same terms & conditions as a Thai applicant (up to 70% of independent valuation, up to 20-year amortization), but during the approval process they decided that as a foreigner I could only be offered a 12-year term. Downside is that HSBC's mortgage offer is not particularly competitive on interest rate. I'm paying 6.75% for the first two years, then MLR - 0.25 after that. Domestic banks are offering introductory rates as low as 3% for the first year. More info at http://www.hsbc.co.th/1/2/personal-en/loan/homeloan.

No, I think the only thing required to make a living as a healer is a real job.

Sorry. Couldn't help myself. Won't happen again.

A double-entry tourist visa is what you need - 60 days permitted on each entry. Each entry can also be extended for an additional 30 days (for a total of 90 days per entry) without leaving Thailand. A double-entry tourist visa should be easy to obtain in the UK.

Your friend is looking for a definitive statement that her employer should not be deducting tax from her pay because she is (1) working without a work permit and (2) working on a visa that is for tourism purposes only?

Both her and her employer are breaking several laws. She risks being deported if the Labour Department or Immigration become aware of her situation. Her employer risks being fined for employing a non-Thai citizen without a work permit. And she wants to make an issue out of this with her employer so that she can get her salary gross of tax deductions? My advice would be keep quiet and get legit as quickly as possible. At the end of the year, she will have to pay income tax on the lot anyway, so she would only be deferring payment, not avoiding it.

I have read that thread and saw that it mentioned contributions to society and membership in charitable organizations but I wonder if one is not paying tax in Thailand but has done significant charitable work if that is enough. I also didn't see specifically what type of visa is required. Also I've always heard with one year extension that you need to check in with immigration every 90 days. Is there a type of visa where you only check in once a year and that's what I need? How do I get the right type of 1 year Non Imm visa?

As with all matters immigration-related, the rules are often not particularly detailed and are interpreted on a case-by-case basis. However, the requirement to have been on 3 consecutive one-year extensions of stay before your application will be accepted is specific and appears immutable: if the chain of three consecutive extensions is broken for even one day, the clock starts again with your next one-year extension. Extensions for periods shorter than a year don't count either.

In my case, I arrived in Thailand on a Non-Immigrant "B" visa in September 2001. For my first extension of stay application in November 2001, there was a deficiency (whilst my employer had received BoI approval for the business in question, they had not yet received the physical Promotion Certificate from the BoI). As a result, I was granted only a 90-day extension of stay. My first one-year extension of stay was granted in February 2002 and yearly extensions have been granted since then. As a result, I was unable to apply for PR in December 2004 (at that point I had extensions of stay totaling over 3 years but NOT one-year extensions of stay totaling 3 years) and had to wait until December 2005 to apply.

The 90 day "check-in with immigration" is a notification of current address and must be undertaken every time you spend 90 consecutive days in Thailand (you can lodge the notification up the 7 days before or after the 90th day). One of the minor benefits of PR is that you no longer have to report.

I always heard that the company just needed to make enough money to pay the foreigner's salary. Not that they needed to make 1 million baht profit on top of that.

It would be really handy if the new (ie. 09/2007) regulations governing extensions of stay for business people were clarified and made publically available. A friend running his own business (legimately employing 6 Thais) went to Suan Phlu in January to extend for the 6th year and was turned down because his company was over-leveraged. He had the requisite THB 2M in paid-up capital, but had funded the remainder of the start-up expenses 6 years ago with a loan to the company. This was never previously an issue, but this year they said the debt to equity ratio was too high. They wanted him to put more share capital into the business to lower the ratio. No guidance was given as to what an acceptable debt:equity ratio might be - just put some more money in and come back. Extension granted: 7 days.

Many little things I can dabble in.. I just want the visa to make it the easiest to keep living here.

The OA visa is definitely the more straightforward way to go, but if your dabbling includes anything that would require a work permit, be aware that work permits generally aren't available to OA visa/extension of stay holders.

If you're serious about staying long term and want to have the option of continuing to work, have you considered permanent residency? If you've been working here continuously for 5 years and earning a decent wage (>= THB80,000 per month), you may qualify. The downside is that the process takes 12-18 months and if you are accepted, the fees are high. And a police clearance is required from both the RTP and your home country.

What a crazy world we live in eh? Just trying to earn a buck and it's full of so many complications!

Never a truer word spoken. Do you want to see just how complicated the concept of tax residence gets? Try reading the ATO guidelines on the subject:

http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content....mp;st=&cy=1

and then go to the "examples" page

http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content....ntent/36280.htm

and try to guess for each scenario whether the taxpayer would be considered "resident" or "non-resident" by the ATO. Don't be surprised if you're wrong 1 time in 3. It is not a black and white, yes or no, in or out kind of question - the devil is in the detail.

At least Australia publishes guidelines. I've never seen any similar publically available document from the Thai Revenue Department describing what criteria they apply in making the residency determination.

Where you are legally required to pay personal income taxes is not a matter of choice (if it was, we would all opt for a jurisdiction with no income tax!). Every country has its own legislation governing who they consider to be resident for taxation purposes. Note that "resident for tax purposes" is a completely separate concept to "resident for immigration purposes" - nothing I say here pertains to the legalities of remaining or working in Thailand. I'm discussing only the issue of where your income is taxed.

It will come as no surprise that most tax jurisdictions set the rules to try to ensnare as many taxpayers as possible. They want to collect tax from as wide a population as they can, stopping just short of taking the money from your wallet as you pass through immigration.

Generally speaking, where and how your personal income is taxed depends on (1) the source of the income and (2) where you are "tax resident". In the scenario you describe, your income is clearly "Australia source income". Your tax residence, however, will become debatable once you have "moved" to Thailand. The definition of tax residence is complex and you need to seek professional advice on this point, however as a broad rule of thumb, if you spend more than 183 days of a tax year in a given jurisdiction (be that Australia or Thailand), you will have a difficult time proving that you are not a tax resident of that jurisdiction. Adding to the complication is that Thailand and Australia have different tax years (Thailand January 1 to December 31, Australia July 1 to June 30).

Despite their intrinsic desire to shake everyone down 3 times a day, most governments have realised that taxing the same person twice on the same income lacks a certain degree of equity and fairness. So most countries, including Thailand, have negotiated bilateral Dual Taxation Agreements (DTAs) with foreign governments, the overriding intention of which is to avoid double taxation of the same income. The text of the Thailand-Australia Dual Taxation Agreement can be found at http://www.rd.go.th/publish/809.0.html.

On the bright side, there is room to minimise the tax payable on your "non-Thai source" income even if you become a tax resident of Thailand (which you inevitably will if you spend more than 50% of your time here). As intimated in an earlier post, investigate the use of Hong Kong or Singapore companies to receive your Australian income.

It is definitely worth consulting a professional accountant with experience in international taxation. Could easily save you a lot of money, stress and prison time in the future.

Assuming the OP is indeed referring to Permanent Residence (as opposed to a one year Extension of Stay based on marriage), then she wouldn't have a re-entry permit.

Once Permanent Residence is granted, any existing visas, extensions of stay and re-entry permits are voided. The Certificate of Residence (blue book) is your evidence that you are permitted to remain in Thailand. A stamp is also entered in your passport noting that you have been granted PR and includes the number of your Certificate.

Permanent Residence is valid for life, a Permanent Resident is not required to apply for permission to stay and may do so indefinitely. Permanent Residents not required to make 90 day notifications (however, they are required to be on a household register - tabien baan).

However, if a Permanent Resident wishes to leave Thailand and return, they must obtain 2 things:

1. An endorsement in their Certificate of Residence. An endorsement is valid for 12 months from date of issue and if the Resident does not return before it expires, the holder loses their Resident status.

2. A Non-Quota Immigrant visa in their passport (not to be confused with a Non-Immigrant visa). Like some other visa types, this can be either single or multiple entry and is valid for a year from the date of issue.

In essence, a Permanent Resident doesn't need permission to remain in Thailand but does need permission to return to Thailand if they depart. If a Resident never leaves Thailand, they would in theory never have to visit Immigration ever again.

I believe the OP's question is "What happens if the endorsement in my Certificate of Residence expires before I return?" The official answer is "You lose your residence." I am not aware of any regulations permitting an extension of the endorsement if you are outside of Thailand. Given the difficulty and expense of obtaining PR, I would find some way to get out of your work commitments and get back to Thailand before your endorsement expires. A call to the PR section at Suan Phlu might reveal if they have any "mitigating circumstances" provisions.

I have no experience with Non "O" extension applications, but do know that certified documents have been required for all Non "B" extensions my employer has submitted since September 2007. I also have an acquaintance running his own business who also needed certified documents for his own Non "B" extension application last week.

And then there's the "photos of all Thai staff at their places of work" requirement....another interesting addition from last September. But that's another thread.

OK, I'll bite. I applied for PR for myself, my spouse and 2 children in December 2005 and eventually received the little blue books in July 2007. Yes, it is a difficult process and if accepted, the fees for the residence books are chunky (just short of 500,000 baht for the whole family). I debated both before the application and at many points along the way whether or not it was worth the time, hassle and money.

So why did I do it? I have been working in Thailand for a multinational since September 2001. We enjoy our lifestyle here and have little desire to move anywhere else at this point in time. While I continue to be employed by a big company, remaining in Thailand is pretty straightforward - just have to head up to the One-Stop Shop once a year. But having witnessed a couple of friends lose their jobs and the immigration quagmire into which they descended (more than eloquently described in other threads of this forum), I realised that I was only ever one pink slip away from having to pack up and leave. The biggest appeal for me was to have the right to remain in Thailand regardless of how my employment situation might change.

Changes to the immigration regulations between the time I applied and now have only convinced me that getting PR was a good idea for us. Limitations on visa-less entry and, more recently, restrictions on the issuance of tourist visas are making staying in Thailand without long-term employment by a well-established company increasingly difficult. Retirement is the only other option that seems relatively painless but I'm not close to retirement age yet.

Having said all that, this is Thailand and they could just as easily decide to change the rules for those of us with PR and make us jump through hoops every 90 days. Unlikely, but possible. All part of the great kaleidoscope of change that is the Land of Smiles.

My understanding (which may not be complete) is that if they need to retain a copy of the document, then the copy must be certified as a true copy by the issuing authority, even if you bring the original with you. IMHO, while preventing forgery is obviously the principal rationale behind this, another significant motivation is the "CYA" mentality of civil servants in Thailand and many other countries.

Public service jobs in Thailand are much sought after, not so much because they are well paid (most aren't), but more because they are secure "jobs for life" and in many cases include the opportunity for unofficial income.

The only way to lose a civil service job is to attract scandal or controversy to oneself or one's superiors. Making mistakes is OK, but making mistakes that embarass your boss is a big no-no. You can be sure that the officer who granted John Mark Karr his last visa extension is now selling noodles in the Klongtoey slum.

One way to avoid controversy is to simply do nothing - an effective technique that is clearly used by about 40% of the civil service in Thailand. However, if doing some work is unavoidable, the next best thing is to ensure that you can transfer responsibility for everything you do to someone else ("CYA").

This is where certifications come in. Getting someone else in authority to stamp a document saying "this is true" gives the civil servant a perfect "out" should it turn out not to be true. In these circumstances, the immigration officer isn't really concerned if it's true or not...someone else said it's true and they can be blamed if anything goes wrong.

An example. I had to submit a copy of my university degree with my PR application a couple of years back. Of course, uni degrees are some of the most frequently falsified documents in Thailand (ask any Member of Thai Parliament where he/she got his/hers). So the copy of my university degree had to be certified by a consular officer at my Embassy. I thought this would be problematic, as my degree was from a university in a different country than my passport. But I went over to the Embassy and they had no difficulty certifying a copy of a degree from a university they had never heard of. I asked "Aren't you uncomfortable certifying this degree as genuine even though you really have no way of knowing?". The consular officer replied, "No problem at all, because my certification doesn't mean I'm saying it's genuine, it means I'm saying it's an accurate copy of the original you've shown me."

So, the copy certified by the Embassy means no more than an uncertified photocopy. But it had a lovely consular seal on it and that meant the immigration officer had an "out" should it transpire in the future that it wasn't a genuine degree. Everyone's happy (except me - the Embassy charges THB 850 a page for certifications) and life can go on with no risk of controversy, or least controversy that can't be blamed on someone else.

Yes, it's true that as a result of some applicants presenting falsified copies of documents in support of immigration applications, the Immigration Bureau since (I believe) September 2007 has required that certain documents be certified by competent authorities rather than simply certified as a true copy by the applicant.

Tax withholding documents (PND 1), personal income tax returns (PND 91) and corporate income tax returns must all be certified by the Revenue Department. Social Security contribution receipts must be certified by the Social Security Office. Audited annual accounts for a corporation must be certified by the original auditor. Incorporation registration documents and shareholder lists must be certified by the Ministry of Commerce.

As you're extending a Non-Immigrant "O" based on marriage to a Thai national, you only have to worry about providing evidence of your personal income (PND 1 and PND 91). A business applying for an extension of stay for an employee on a Non-Immigrant "B" would have to provide all of the above and more. This means a fair amount of running around Bangkok going from one Ministry to another. I can't even imagine what's involved for an upcountry business.

Interestingly, the Immigration Bureau did not consult with any of the other ministries before announcing these changes last year. Overnight, quiet little offices (like the SSO) that received 5 requests a day for document certification were swamped with hordes of motorcycle messengers queueing up into the street waiting to get copies of documents certified. None were prepared for the 20-fold increase in the number of requests for certification.

Rumour (and yes, I'm sorry, it's a rumour and I have no substantiation other than to say it came from an unnamed immigration officer at Suan Phlu) is that when the regulations are next changed, the certification requirements will be lifted as the Immigration Bureau is getting too many complaints from other government departments. After all, their staff were sleeping quite happily until this happened!

I suspect (although I have absolutely no evidence to back this up) that the Non-Immigrant 'OA' type visa for retirement was introduced after the last amendment to the PR regulations. So as the regulations don't mention 'OA' as one of the prerequisite "3-year extension" possibilities, immigration won't take applications from people with OAs.

Just a wild theory.

what about a fair knowledge of Thai Kamnan? isn't that a must?

At the time the initial application is lodged (applications are accepted for a period of a week or two at the end of December each year), the Immigration Officer reviews your documents, makes out of list of defects to be rectified (missing docs, additional docs, docs to be translated) and schedules an appointment for your interview, usually in late February or early March of the next year. Your passport will also be stamped "Application for Resident Status under Consideration of the Immigration Commission. Extension of Stay permitted until ..." and a date just after your interview date.

At the interview, you do have to demonstrate a basic knowledge of spoken Thai. First you to do a set piece speech that you can prepare and rehearse in advance ("My name is .... My application number is .... I work for ....."). Then the officer selects a page of 10 multiple choice questions and proceeds to slowly read you each question and the four possible answers (in Thai, of course). The questions are written in Thai script, but you can answer "A", "B", "C" or "D". The questions relate to Thailand ("How many changwat are there in Thailand?") or to the Permanent Residence application process itself ("If you are approved for Permanent Residence, what is the fee payable for your Residence Certficate?"). They seem to be paticularly keen that you're aware of the fee.

Both parts are recorded on videotape and the tape is subsequently passed around with your application to all of the government departments that will review and approve your application. I'm sure the tapes are also used at department staff parties when they need a few laughs ("Hey, look at this farang - doesn't even know how many colours are on the Thai flag!").

Can someone tell me if I become liable to pay tax when I buy the Thai residence?

you can't "buy" thai residence.

I believe what the OP meant was to purchase a place of residence, eg. buy a condo or house (albeit not the land the house occupies).

You are correct in saying that Thai Residence (ie. a Certificate of Residence) cannot be bought, although when I handed over the 193,600 baht, it sure felt like I was buying it!

but besides the money you had to do a lot of homework to obtain your residence permit, true or false?

Yes, there was a stack of paper about 3 inches high that supported the original application. CV, educational qualifications, employment details, details about employer (including their annual accounts, tax returns and proof of viability), my tax returns for the past 3 years (and, subsequently, for the year of application even though the tax return wasn't due yet), and a criminal background check from my home country. There are a number of categories under which one can apply, but the most common one is Business/Employment and that generally means three continuous years of employment with a Thai-registered company with both the company and you paying taxes in Thailand.

Can someone tell me if I become liable to pay tax when I buy the Thai residence?

you can't "buy" thai residence.

I believe what the OP meant was to purchase a place of residence, eg. buy a condo or house (albeit not the land the house occupies).

You are correct in saying that Thai Residence (ie. a Certificate of Residence) cannot be bought, although when I handed over the 193,600 baht, it sure felt like I was buying it!

Can someone tell me if I become liable to pay tax when I buy the Thai residence?

Not sure if the OP meant "Does buying a Thai residence make me liable for Thai taxes such as income tax?". As with most countries, Thailand determines tax residency (distinct from the immigration concept of residency) based on a number of factors. The principal test is whether or not one is physically present in Thailand for 183 days or more during a tax year. Buying a condominium in Thailand wouldn't in and of itself make one a tax resident of Thailand.

If the purchased property was rented out, the rental income (net of expenses) would be subject to Thai income tax regardless of whether or not the recipient was a tax resident.

And if you are married to a Thai national what other options does that open up to you?

If you are married ( and not over 50) you can get a 1 year extension (no border runs) by providing proof that you have a family income of B40,000 per month.

I'd have to be working to have that kind of monthly income. I was planning to bum around for a year or so and chill out

spend time with the family and then if we wish to stay in Thailand longer, hopefully I could get a good job in the city.

Then you have time on your hands. Just remember after your 1st non imm O visa ends you might want to visit your family in the UK. Once there you can apply for another non imm O visa and return to thailand and start working.

Thats a good point, I expect my parents will come over to Thailand for a visit when the new baby arrives but a trip back to the UK might not be out of the question.

Do any of you have experience in gaining work permits for Thailand? I'm in I.T. and should be able to get a good managment position with luck.

You should seriously and objectively investigate your employment prospects before chucking it all in and moving to Thailand. There is often a mistaken belief that Thailand lacks a local IT workforce and has limitless high-paying jobs available for foreigners with computer skills. While it's a tight marketplace, there are a lot of skilled Thais who are willing to work for a monthly wage that you probably wouldn't get out of bed for.

My employer has over 1,000 Thai software engineers working in Bangkok, 95% of whom are paid less than GBP 1,000 per month because that's what wage scales are here for IT workers. Would you work for that kind of money?

I get half a dozen CVs a month from guys (it's always guys) in the UK, France, Germany, Sweden, Australia, the US and elsewhere saying they found us on the Internet, they've fallen in love with Thailand and are ready and willing to come and work for us as long as we can pay them THB 200,000++ a month. Realistically, unless they have a rare specialist skill that I need and can't find locally, there is no incentive for me to hire them and plenty of disincentives (work permit hassles, cultural hurdles and the not insignificant percentage of new arrivals who just go completely off the deep end).

Make your plans on the assumption that you will not be working, or if you are, it will be because you need something to occupy your time and/or get a visa extension. The truth is that most long stay visitors to Thailand leave poorer than the day they arrived, because most spend money at a rate faster than they could ever earn it here.

Out of curiosity I called Siam Legal and asked about their assitance for getting permanent residency. I was unaware that the fees were enormous. The Thai Immigration fee is about 200,000 Baht and the Siam Legal fee is 400,000 Baht! Our conversation was pretty short!

I don't know how onerous a process it is to go through but it can't come close to be worth Baht 400K.

Maybe a good idea to shop around.

It is entirely possible to complete the PR application process without the assistance of a legal or paralegal advisor. The paperwork can be onerous, but it's primarily collecting information about your own background and life in Thailand, getting translations, certifications and authentications and presenting it all to Immigration. I always found the officers in the Permanent Residence section to be very helpful in walking applicants through the requirements and process.

All of this is time-consuming, so it's a personal decision whether or not your time is worth what a paralegal would charge to do 80% of the running around for you. A word of warning on one piece of paperwork: the criminal background check from your home country. This must be from your home national police authority (eg. FBI in the US, RCMP in Canada, AFP in Australia) and MUST be a fingerprint-based search. The AFP, for example, will do a criminal record search based on fingerprints or solely on name and date of birth, but in the latter case the certificate you get back states that no fingerprint search was conducted and the Thai Immigration Bureau will reject such a certificate. The AFP can return a certificate in a few days, but some authorities (notably the FBI) have a big backlog of fingerprint search requests and it can take months to get a certificate from them. If you haven't submitted a request already, you may not get one by the December 28th application deadline.

BTW, THB 400,000 for the legal side is more than a touch on the high side. I had a very well regarded local Thai law firm (same one my employer uses for immigration work) do the whole thing for myself, my wife and two children for less than 100K including all disbursements and VAT. Saved me a lot of running around and in my case, I considered it worthwhile.

Current consensus is that they are being more rigorous on enforcing 90 day reporting. If the officer at immigration notices (and there is a good chance that he/she won't), you will be referred to the table at the back and potentially fined THB 2,000. Make sure you have the cash on you just in case.

Unless the paper is still stapled to the passport page, how would they know? Is it computerized now?

The first time I did a 90-day report but departed Thailand before the date due, the Immigrations inspector at the airport removed the paper form from the passport.

Several times since then, the inspectors have totally ignored the paper stapled to the passport, so I now have a well out-of-date form stapled in my passport, showing a report due date of March 2007. Not a problem, as I can document via the entry/exit stamps that I never was in Thailand over 90 days.

My point is that some Immigrations inspectors can/will remove the paper form at the airport. If the form is not there, how would an inspector at the airport know when your last address report was?

I would never ever suggest you remove the form yourself, even if it benefited you by masking an overdue report.

If there isn't 90-day report receipt stapled into your passport and your last entry stamp indicates that you've been in Thailand for more than 90 days, the outbound immigration officer could ask why you haven't reported. I've never had an immigration officer at a border crossing remove a receipt (either inbound or outbound) - only the officers at Suan Phlu have removed them when I've made the next report.

But like you, I do get the feeling that as long as there is a receipt stapled into your passport, most immigration officers don't check the date on it to see if it is within the last 90 days.

Consensus some time back was failure to do a 90 day address report would not cause a problem on Suvarnabhumi departure.

Any resnet news on this?

Thanks

Current consensus is that they are being more rigorous on enforcing 90 day reporting. If the officer at immigration notices (and there is a good chance that he/she won't), you will be referred to the table at the back and potentially fined THB 2,000. Make sure you have the cash on you just in case.

My understanding is that the "90 days in six months on visa exempt stamps" rule does not specify that the 90 days must be taken in 30 day "chunks". Any combination of entries that add up to 90 days or less is permitted. 3 stays of 30 days, 9 stays of 10 days, 18 stays of 5 days or any combination that adds up to 90 days.

Once your total count is over 60 days, on your next entry, instead of getting leave to enter for 30 days, the officer should grant you leave to enter for what remains of your permitted total of 90 days. So, for example, if you have 3 visits totalling 72 days in the last six months and arrive for another entry, the officer should grant you another 18 days. There's no reason why your son should have been received less than 30 days given that he only had 11 days in Thailand in the previous six months.

Of course, for arrivals with a lot of stamps in their passports, all that counting is rather taxing on the immigration officer's noggin and there are no government issue calculators. But if your son had only the single previous entry in his passport, even the thickest of a less than gifted bunch should have been able to handle the math.

One parent must be thai to qualify for a lil one having thai citizenship. Being born in thailand by foreign parents does not mean you are automatically thai.

...or residents. Children of resident aliens born in Thailand are eligible for Thai citizenship.