jackcorbett

Anyone here know much about the new engine---drive train that is reportedly being introduced in Japan in 2011 for the Mazda 2? I've heard that this engine will get at least 15 % better fuel economy than the present Mazda 2 models. It will use premium fuel only and the reason is it's going to have direct injection with 14 to 1 compression as compared to the present engine's 10 to 1. Back to fuel economy it is said it will get 70 miles to the gallon or 30 kilometers to the liter in Japan, but it will not do this in the U.S. for example. A 15 % increase means 40 to 42 miles to the gallon without having to go to full battery or hybrid technology. 70 mile to gallon direct injection technology????

As far as Proton or Mazda 2.....Mazda 2 hands down. Mazdas are excellent cars as I can personally attest after putting 180,000 miles on two Mazda Miatas. From the road tests I've read the Mazda 2 is the most fun to drive car in its class. It offers excellent handling

Even if we were to get statistics just remember, statistics lie. Furthermore some of you (listening up Nisa) cannot get it through your heads that we are not talking about violence in one city in the U.S. versus Pattaya, we are comparing something totally different-----group beatings perpetuated against customers by bar employees. I doubt if any of us can google that and get a meaningful statistical database. And even if we could I sure as hell would not rely on anything I got from the Pattaya police or other authorities. When I was farming in the United States many of us would rely on statistics supplied by the University of Illinois for making our seed corn purchases. Incidentally we have on our farms one of the finest Pioneer seed corn test plots in Illinois. Now, I've seen a lot of databases that have excluded our test plot and others when it's been convenient to push brand X over brand Y. Needless to say we now give the greatest weight to our own test plot results. And cashed in big time. So I'm going to do the same. Only once in all my bar hopping in the U.S. have I witnessed a general bar fight involving a relatively large group of people and this was strictly between customers. That was forty years ago. Been in a few bar fights myself and seen a few more I was not in. As for Pattaya......let's see.....there's the German I mentioned earlier who managed to get beaten up by the entire bar, there's the Irish fellow condo co owner I bailed out of jail who was beaten up by at least three guys, and there's another condo co owner, a Norwegian who was jumped by two lady boys after he protested the bar charging him for beers that he never received. In this last incident, the Norwegian won largely due to the fact that there weren't enough Thais to make it an equal fight. That is a scorecard of three to zero from a database where I personally was pretty close to the victims or in the case of my Norwegian pal, an example of the victim turning into the predator. And this is from just a four year time span. Put into the mix the fact that in the U.S. there are both civil and criminal penalties for a bar beating up its customers whereas in Thailand the police could care less (because they are not getting paid a commission) and there is a lack of concern for customers in general and we have a case closed situation here as far as I am concerned.

Hey, Red.

I was having a "brain fart" yesterday. Yeah, that was me you talked to. You had the black 250. My friend has a new Wave 125, (doesn't even have plates/book for it yet), but wants to trade/sell it and buy a Scoopy for his wife. She drove my wife's Scoopy and loves it. And he's going to by a Lifan 250. We stopped and looked at them on the way home. He wants me to get one as well, so we can do some trips together. Lifan is a nice looking bike, but the foot pegs/brake/clutch pedal need to be set more forward. The way they are now puts my knees up too high. I told him he can get that, I'll still go with the CBR 250, and we can still do the trips.

Today I'm heading out in just a few to do the run up to Doi Suthep on the 150. Want to see how it handles the mountains & curves. Should be fun.

Would it be a fair assessment to say that (so far) the Chinese bikes are significantly down on their horsepower compared to their Japanese counterparts?

I find this entire incident to be very ironical as just recently Super Girls received four stars out of five on my web site while its sister club, Super Babes got a five star rating. And aside from the fact that these two clubs have some of the most beautiful girls on Walking Street the main reason they were rated so highly is because "they respect their customers". Both the man who does my reviews who goes by the moniker "Uncle Bufford" will often go to one of the two sister clubs just to relax after having a less than pleasant experience somewhere else. The girls at Super Girls in particular behave in a haughty manner and normally gyrate slowly in front of the customers with their eyes staring straight ahead, avoiding eye contact. Some say this is bad and would prefer being swarmed by two or more go go girls at once all asking him to buy them drinks. I prefer the Super Girls--Super Babes style leaving it entirely up to the customer to pick out exactly which girl interests him. I find this to be far more respectful to the customer because it allows him complete freedom of choice and apparently most of the Korean-Japanese clientele thinks so too. I personally think these recent beatings are not a Super Girls Super Babes thing, but a cultural thing that involves many aspects, particularly the Asian concept of face and the police failing to serve and protect which is what they strive to do in the U.S. while preferring to keep their hands in every cookie jar in sight.as the far greater virtue. Now don't get me wrong, many Thai owned businesses do a good job of taking care of their customers but far too many fail to focus on the needs and wants of their customers.

Let me give you an example of businesses elevating "face" over the wants and needs of their customers. Near my condo here in Naklua is the Lek Villa Hotel. It has a good buffet breakfast at a good price of 110 baht. In general the Lek Villa does a good job on both its morning and dinner buffets and I can definitely recommend the Lek Villa in general. However, the Lek Villa will normally have as one of its selections spaghetti in one form or the other be in Spaghetti Bolognese, Pork spaghetti or whatever. The restaurant used to hide a container of Parmesan cheese in a cabinet below the table its selections are displayed upon. After many weeks of hiding the parmesan cheese, the Lek Villa stopped providing Parmesan cheese altogether. So I brought the matter up to one of its long standing employees and he said to me, "Cheese expensive". He's right, it is, but how many people will actually pig out on spaghetti given all the other selections at the Lek Villa? And Lek Villa could raise the price of its buffet from 110 baht to 115 baht if carrying Parmesan cheese made that much of a difference. Bottom line is many if not most Westerners who eat spaghetti want to have the option of putting parmesan cheese on their spaghetti and that's why every single Western restaurant I can remember offers Parmesan cheese to their customers. But I could talk to the employee till I was blue in the face and he'd never lower himself to bringing this up to his boss. Another weakness in the buffet at Lek Villa is the fact that the bacon is severely undercooked. It's greasy and not browned whatsoever. And this has been going on for over four years now. I won't believe for one second that customers have not complained about this. I would have myself except for the fact that I would not be received well by either management, the cooks, or the people I've known working working there for over four years. I mean who am I, a mere Westerner and a guest of the hotel to even dare to tell the Thais here how to do anything? Face.

I can go on and on about how clueless so many bars and restaurants are about taking care of their customers. Just as most Westerners prefer their bacon to be properly cooked I'd say most Westerners visiting the Pattaya Naklua bars don't like Thai music yet how many times do you see such bars having Thai music in their establishments at such loud volume levels that conversation becomes practically impossible? They do it for their bar girls, not for their customers. So I really don't find this incident that happened at Super Girls to be so unusual given the overall value system here which far too often puts its customers well beneath its own staff.

Can someone give me one or 2 good stories about Pattaya that will erase the millions of negatives. They will have to be bloody tho. Almost everyday Pattaya throws up another negative never anything nice to be heard of this place.

Earlier I gave a link to Twelve Wonders of Pattaya so if you had been paying attention you would have found 12 excellent positives about Pattaya.

My personal experiences with both Super Girls and its sister club, Super Babes have been excellent--so much so that I would have put these clubs about dead last for stooping to beat up its customers. In an earlier post I also described how a German customer was ganged and hospitalized in a Naklua Bar right after I had left. The owner had led the beating. And I have always felt this owner is one of the best bar owners in Naklua. So the fact that I otherwise regard this owner highly and still feel Super Girls and Super Babes are the best go go bars in town tells me this. It's the mentality here combined with the authorities not doing their job to enforce the law that makes such gang beatings so commonplace. And believe me, they are. The only thing i missed the night the German customer got beat up was the narrow sliver of time the beating actually took place. Then there was the time I bailed out one of our fellow condo owners at 6 a.m. His face was just as bad one week after his beating as the morning I took him home. He refused to pay for a drink an ex girlfriend ordered on his bin after he refused to buy her a drink. Wound up in a fight with two guys which turned into three guys and at some point he went unconscious. He woke up in the middle of Soi 7 just as the police were arriving. He was the only one to go to jail. Customer wrong, Bar right. Police condones the gang beating. Get the picture? Abby normal in Western countries; normal procedure here.

In fact you yourself along with a few others here encourage these very beatings by being such abject apologists for Thai bad behavior.

An awful lot of attention is being made out of a bar fight where nobody was seriously injured. Are we really going to pretend this doesn't happen all the time in the west or that bouncers/employees don't rough up customers who show disrespect? Bar fights like this would never make the news back home and if they were foreigners who got the beating (or girls on girls fights) it is doubtful the police would put much work into the case. But once again let us pretend Thailand and its people are so terrible.

Pattaya is like a 7 day a week Mardi Gras with probably more bars per square kilometer than most any other place. What makes this story so strange is that it is not an an occurrence that happens multiple times a day..

Anything can happen in any country in the world and most certainly not all Americans believe in fair play. There are pile ons where the victim is ganged but in my experience this is very unusual. Bouncers do strike their customers at times in the U.S. but it is common knowledge that they shouldn't do it. And there are both criminal and civil penalties in the U.S. and they are enforced. Been in three bar fights and seen a few more and not once have I seen the kind of pile ons that are typical in Thailand bars. In most of the U.S. this is considered cowardly behavior whereas many Thai men think this is terrific. Thai guys do not suffer from the social ostracism resulting from their cowardly actions whereas Americans usually (but not always) do. And there are zero consequences from the police.

One personal incident. I had come into an East St. Louis strip club with one of the dayshift girls. I knew the bouncer. He reprimanded the dancer for coming into the club during the night shift, then he told me, "I don't like you Jack." I replied..."I don't like you either Larry." Next thing I know he's punched me in the face and he's shoving me up against the wall. A few seconds later I've knocked him down, and I'm on top of him in the middle of the floor and working him over. Three guys pull me off the bouncer. They pull me over to the door. I'm not fighting back. And they throw me out of the place into the snow. This is pretty typical. I used to hang out in East St. Louis strip clubs two or three times a week. If a customer got too unruly several club employees would grab him, not just the bouncer and they'd toss him out the door. I called this "The bum's rush".

After reading this thread I still understand why tourists go to Pattaya, either because they want the Sodom and Gomorrha thing and don't care about the risks, or because they are ignorant and just want the beach. However, I can't understand why the many farang retirees stay there or went there in the first place, apart from the foreign criminals hanging out there. Who would buy a condo there from Raimon Land for 120,000 baht a square metre for chrissakes, apart from the idiots who believe the sales girl's spiel about finding a tenant or selling for a profit?

One just might justify paying 120,000 baht per square meter provided 1. One could well afford it, and 2. The quality of swimming is equal to the best beaches in Thailand (I live 150 yards from Wongamat Beach and won't swim here because the water is so polluted. But I'm not that rich and the beach doesn't qualify.

One of my friends who is renting a condo in my building is strongly considering gettiing a serviced apartment at Ao Nang Beach in Krabi where there is an abundance of terrific beaches. Have to say I've been tempted as I love Krabi.....but.....what would one miss in Pattaya? For one thing there's Bangkok Hospital Pattaya. It's just 10 minutes from Wongamat Beach and it's a terrific hospital so if one is retired and not getting younger that is a huge factor for wanting to be in Pattaya. 2. There is an abundance of excellent restaurants---Indian, Thai, Japanese, German, Italian, and so on within relative close proximity, 3. There are excellent shopping malls here starting with the Central Festival Mall, 4. There's a lot of pleasant diversions aside from the night life Twelve Wonders of Pattaya 5. Good climate, 6. decent infrastructure, 7. one hour away from international airport, 8. There is a beach and even if the water is polluted one can get away from the traffic and congestion here. 9. The city is compact so it doesn't take very long to get to where you are going, and lastly, 10. the women are about half the weight of their Western counterparts so it costs a lot less to feed them.

Apparently, according to the actual article in the paper, the correct name of the go-go bar in question is SUPER GIRLS A GO-GO. Let's avoid this establishment like the bubonic plague. Let's work real hard to put these fools out of business. I am going to put the word out to my entire network. If everyone who reads these posts does the same, we may be able to dramatically reduce their business, and deny these "wanna be thugs" a livelihood. Now, wouldn't that be gratifying. I would like to make my main purpose in life the ability to deny the Thai mafia a livelihood. That would be fun.

It's not just Super Girls that beats up on its customers. The root cause of this are the Pattaya politicians and police since apparently many Thais feel it's open season on customers or falang who displease them. Bottom line is the authorities don't do jack shit to the culprits. If they severely punished any Thais who gang their victims and/or bars that beat their customers this kind of nonsense would stop. It's the same thing with traffic lights. Perhaps as many as half the Thais in Pattaya run red lights routinely. Why? Because they can. There is a bar not far from where I live which beat up a German I had been drinking with two years ago during Songkran. Its owner had gone out of her way on many occasions to help out a guy who used to rent a condo in my building. The last time he got so drunk he couldn't get off the toilet. One of her girls went inside and cleaned him up and then she provided her car and a driver so he could be delivered safe and sound to his hotel. And yet, during Songkran this German guy apparently slapped a young male relative of the owner. I missed this one by only one hour as the German had been drinking with our little group, we had all been to the bar together, and then the incident happened while one of my friends and I were down the street at another bar. One of my other friends came into the bar and told us what had happened and that the German customer had to be taken to the hospital. I had my last beer back at the guilty bar and while there I asked many questions. Nearly every woman in the bar including the owner were proud of themselves for putting the German customer in the hospital.

As for Super Girls, there's two reasons why you, we cannot make the slightest dent in its business. First......I'd have to say that most of the Walking Street go go bar customers are tourists and therefore do not frequent boards such as this one. The second reason is this. Both Super Girls and its sister club across the street cater to a Japanese and Korean clientele. Especially in Super Girls the girls are trained not to smile at their customers and not to put on a lively dancing show whatsoever. I'd say your typical Japanese or Korean guy prefers a woman who is demure and not very aggressive. More so at Super Girls than Super Babes I'd say one third to one half of the girls have these barbie doll haircuts that apparently these Korean and Japanese customers like. Oftentimes I'd be sitting in Super Girls or Super Babes only to have my drinking buddy remark..."Look around, we are the only two white guys in here." So, even if you convinced every Westerner who comes to Pattaya to boycott these two places, neither of them would even notice.

Now that I find out the go go club is Super Girls, I am very surprised as Super Girls and its sister club, Super Babes are the highest rated on my web site. Both clubs cater to a Japanese-Korean clientele and in my opinion have trained their girls to behave non-aggressively while expecting their customer to make the first move. I have found both clubs to be very respectful of their customers. Management at both places has been tops in my book. For myself these two clubs are the last two go go's on Walking Street where I would have anticipated a problem for myself.

I absolutely totally disagree with you. The customer is always right. There are too many apologists here and elsewhere for Thai bad behavior and this is a small part of the reason these kinds of incidents keep occurring. As for strip clubs around the world, yes, it does happen. But this is not the norm. In fact, the opposite is true at least in the U.S. where strip clubs are running scared simply because they will be presumed to be the guilty party because of the puritanical mindset of many of my fellow Americans. I will provide two incidents involving two clubs in two different U.S. states.

Incident 1. This occurred at the Platinum Club in Brooklyn, IL which is next to East St. Louis. I was in the office with Frank Marcello who was then general manager of the club. A waitress came into Frank's office who told Frank a customer wanted to complain about his wallet being stolen in the club's "private area". Frank had an intricate system of security cameras throughout the club and he had a computer monitor in his office. He had something similar to a computer mouse attached to his monitoring setup. The cameras filmed everything within their range so Frank was able to review what the security camera had picked up where the alleged theft took place. Frank went through the video, not once but many times. He'd zoom in on a table next to the couch where the dancer was giving her customer a private dance. There was an ill defined object on the table that could well have been the guy's wallet. It never moved throughout the video. Neither the dancer nor anyone else made a move on it or on anything that might have been in the customer's pockets. It was obvious that if the customer had been relieved of his wallet it certainly was not in the club's private room. After reviewing the video Frank concluded that the customer had been lying about the entire incident. Then he had the waitress bring the customer up to his office. Frank told the customer that he had reviewed the video and that there was no evidence for a theft having taken place. Then he bought the customer a drink. Afterwards Frank told me "the customer is always right" and that even though the club was not guilty of any theft taking place it was important to keep good will between the customers and the club.

Incident 2. I was staying at the club owner's house. The name of the club was Stimmelators. It's in North Webster, Indiana and the owner was Sam Stimmel. I was on the bottom floor of the club drinking beer with friends when all of a sudden there was a lot of commotion between me and the club's front entrance. The D.J. was arguing with two customers. I knew the D.J. quite well and was good friends with Sam so I was pretty sure the customers were out of line so I approached the D.J. and the customers to give any assistance that might be needed. There was a cloud of smoke all around me and as I went through it I started to sneeze a bit and I started blaming myself for being a weakling..."Here I am needed and I'm not at 100 percent because I get a sneeze at the wrong time." The two customers went outside and I followed them. There lying on the sidewalk right in front of the door was a man who had been performing some management duties for the club. He had this guey stuff all over his glasses and he was sputtering and sneezing and unable to get up. What had happened it the two customers had come into the club with a can of pepper spray and cut loose with it. ONe of the dancers on the stage close by did a header into the stage floor and had to be taken to the hospital and the man lying on the ground had gotten it square in the face. By this time all the customers and dancers were coming out of the club coughing and sneezing. Now outside the club I saw the two customers get into a car and they started to drive slowly up the street to the traffic light. I ran up behind them, memorized the license plate number and gave it to one of the club's other customers who called it in to the Indiana police. The club owner, Sam Stimmel was then driven by another customer about ten miles up the highway where the Indiana State police had finally caught up and pulled over the two culprits. Sam got out of the car and told the police "those are the two guys who have sprayed my club." The police told Sam to get back into the car and shut up. They nearly arrested Sam. And they let the two culprits drive off without further incident.

Bad club owners and managers in the U.S. might be guilty of abusing customers but such clubs do not last long. Most clubs try to be far more considerate of their customers than non-strip club bars due to the political points that politicians can gain with the neo-Puritans from punishing clubs that offend them.

RULES

I have been coming to Pattaya for about 10 years now and have managed to stay out of trouble, despite the nature of the place, the nature of the workers and the kind of foreigners we often get here. My rules for avoiding trouble are currently 1. don't go to Walking Street 2. don't rent jet skis 3. don't rent cars or motorbikes 4. avoid Thai men 5. avoid any Thai's who are drunk or druggy types 6. get one drink at a time, check the bill every time, never drink in a place where they keep the bill at the bar 7. never order a drink without first knowing the price 8. never lend or borrow money 9. never become "entrenched", always be an "outsider", albeit a friendly and polite one 10. never flaunt wealth or money 11. use your hotel safe deposit box 12. in the event of a dispute over money, be willing to lose and never return to that place, if you follow ther basic rules the amounts won't be large 13. trust your instincts

Maybe other people have some suggestions to add.

Thai A-go-go bar are not different then any other striptease or Cabaret bars around the world; and the rules are the same; pay respect to the people working there.

I own a Striptease bar in Belgium, and I can tell you that we have to deal with a lot of <deleted> all night the pay no respect to the girls or the staff working there, drunk ass holes, or so called "hi-so" people that thinks that because they have money they can boss everybody around and talk shit to the people.

I have been in many bars around Thailand and NEVER had any problem; even when the bill is higher then expected, I always smile, speak thai, and ask for discount, I never pay more then 100 Bhat above the menu price, and that's normally the tip I leave them in any case.

Staff in A-gogo go bars do not attack customers for no reason.. that's not how they make money. The fact that Ms. Tida (The HiSO) thai was attached by the girls, lead me to believe that she talk to them no nicely and insulted them. This type of reaction is "normal" when these Hiso types think that because they are from another social level they can talk shit to the working girls. The closing time of the bars are 2AM and the Thai Hi-So should have known that. At 3:15AM they were asked to leave and refused.. probably talking shit to the staff.. There are two sides to this story.

To avoid problems; treat everybody with respect, and when people are not nice to you or just try to screw you, leave the place!

I think far too many businesses in Thailand as well as many of you on this board have forgotten the old adage that the customer is always right (or at least presumed to be). If you are a bar or business of any kind you don't go around beating up your customers, There is NO EXCUSE FOR IT. Any bar that allows this to happen is announcing loud and clear that it despises its own customers and is running its business for the benefit of its own staff (and profit). If these go go bars are really tied in with the police, all they have to do if they are having trouble with a customer is call the police who will then come in, remove the unruly customer/customers and put them in the monkey house. I'm now going to tell a story about what happened to me in Egypt many years ago. Can anyone here honestly say they can imagine it happening here in Pattaya.

Many years ago when I was married my wife and I were looking at the exhibits in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. On the upper floor there was a security guard. My wife and I briefly separated so that she could look at exhibits she was interested in on one end of the floor while I went to the opposite end. Right before we were to exit the building my wife told me the security guard followed her into one of the exhibit areas and tried to feel her up. I went ballistic. We walked through the entry/exit doors where there were all these tourists lined up waiting their turn and I started mouthing off about the security guard trying to feel my wife up. Needless to say, employees around us were clearly embarrassed by the incident so they quietly readmitted us into the building and took us to the curator's office. The curator politely greeted us in his office. A wiry Egyptian soon came into the room who I assume was head of security. The curator, who was a finely educated man with a PHD, had someone get us both soft drinks and a fruit plate, then he gave me a copy of the museum's magazine to read. He then asked my wife to go with him and the head of security. The curator and my wife returned a few minutes later. After we finally left the museum she told me, "Here you got to read that magazine in the curator's office while chowing down on all that fruit, and having a soft drink and I had to go upstairs to identify the security guard. Then we were all taken to this little room where the curator and head of security put the guard in a chair. After that I had to watch the head of security beat the guard up, punching him repeatedly in the head right in front of me while he was still sitting in the chair."

The message was clear. Customers were to be respected simply because they were customers and any employee who didn't treat the customers with respect would be dealt with very severely.

I'd take a Yamaha Nouvo Elegance or Honda PCX any day over this thing. Why would I want to have 150 cc's just so I can limit myself to 55 miles an hour and 70 to 80 mpg while having fewer horsepower just so I can have an Italian name on it?

Oh please not that old chestnut about the Miata......... best sports car in the world de da de da de da.

It's a bona fide HAIRDRESSERS sportscar

Say what you will about the PCX or Nuovo - and I'd get a PCX simply because of the more advanced technology - but don't slag me my Miata.

This car taught me that driving can be FUN. I once got stopped for "turning too fast" on an intersection . Most fun car I've ever had, for sure.

Nikster------This same person who called your Miata a hairdresser's sportscar later claimed it wasn't a sportscar at all. Well we know he can't make up his mind if it's a sports car or not. Perhaps the closest he's ever been to one was when he glued one of those little plastic models together.

Guy's,

Thanks for all your input about the price of the PCX and more. Now I don't know what the hell to do, maybe buy a CBR150 which is cheaper than the PCX, well here in CM. But then, I really like that cherry red pcx.

I personally think the cherry red PCX is beautiful. And while I'm at it I want to be perfectly clear. If I seem to be putting down the PCX, I'm not. I think it's a fine bike but I think the Nouvo Elegance is also. Both are similar yet both are different. The PCX has certain advantages over the Nouvo Elegance and vice versa. Both in my opinion represent the top shelf of their class for their respective marque. So I try to explain the differences and highlight the good points and bad of each. I think for most people on this board who are looking for a scooter either one makes a better choice than say a Honda Wave or a Yamaha Fino. So I don't think you would go wrong with either one. What I don't respect are those who come in here knocking a perfectly good bike who clearly have no clue about what they are talking about and who don't give solid facts upon which they base their opinion. For example, calling a Yamaha Nouvo a piece of junk or a prehistoric relic is not based on fact. The same would be true if someone would claim that a PCX is so heavy and underpowered that it cannot manage to get up Buddha Hill. Either way I'm going to call the person a bull shitter and a liar. Now it is probably true that a Yamaha Nouvo Elegance is faster than a PCX. It is after all around 40 to 50 pounds lighter and it's engine is 135 c.c's to the PCX's 125 c.c's. However I borrowed a Norwegian friend's brand new PCX for about 20 minutes and I loved it. I could detect no discernible difference between its acceleration and that of my Elegance for the type of driving that I am doing. And as for my friend he will often drive his PCX from Pattaya to Rayon while his buddy is driving his Air Blade rental. Here's my buddy's views on driving a PCX.....1. It's all the bike either he or I need in his opinion, 2. For the type of driving we are likely to be doing it's not necessary (or wise) to drive any faster than 80 kph, and 3. It handles the hills better driving two up while he's got another Norwegian male on the back than his friend is able to do with a Thai woman on the back of his Air Blade rental.

So it's quicker than a 50 year old Jag, still doesn't stop it being a hairdressers car

Anyways what's that got to do with the price of a PCX ?

You should have left the analogy stand without further comment then if you are concerned over what all this has to do with the price of a PCX. But since you didn't I'll just have to show off a hair dresser's car.

My 1992 model Miata with Sebring supercharger, after market air intake, header, after market sport exhaust, oversize wheels and tires, stock 118 miles per hour. Modified will do 139 miles an hour before the rev limiter shuts off the flow of gasoline . Had great times playing hair dresser by the way. Since new ones have 40 % more horsepower stock this kind of performance would be vastly exceeded. Let's get back on the subject of PCX's and Elegance's, okay. or we will really start getting off the subject such as "Where did the girl come from?"

Oh please not that old chestnut about the Miata......... best sports car in the world de da de da de da.

It's a bona fide HAIRDRESSERS sportscar

Bullshit. The new ones will do zero to sixty in less than 7 seconds which is faster to sixty than the old E type jaguars. If you don't believe me start looking up road tests because I have. They will do 90 miles an hour in a quarter of a mile and do over ,9 g's on a skidpad. They are still under $30,000, they will do over 30 miles to the gallon, and when it comes to long term reliability, frequency of repair, and the annual average cost of repair you are going to find out that its high dollar German competition is not even close. You can drive them 1000 miles at a crack in relatively good comfort and manage Coast to Coast without incident. And if a guy needs more speed and power I'd suggest either his becoming a Grand Prix driver or skydiving for some real meaningful thrills and chills.

(hint, for those with weak or non-existent skills of evaluation/comparison, it is not the Nouvo).

You mean such as your inability to find the lower anchor points for bungee cords on a PCX to go with the wonderful top anchor point provided by the bracket of an extra cost top box? Or claiming that hanging bags on mirrors is a reasonable way to carry bags but you of course wouldn't do it? Do you find a consistent lack of logic in just about everything you've said so far?

I guess you have to put me in the plain cheap category. That and my old plow mule will easily outrun the young race horse. I really can't feel any difference in riding comfort other than that stupid bump and downward facing seat on the PCX gets my knickers in a twist. If you put a new seat on the Honda, it would then be the equal of the Elegance as far as ride comfort. Why would I want to pay a 19,000 baht premium for features that I really don't like. I much prefer to control the front brake myself. The start stop feature is another waste of money. I really don't care if I save a teaspoon full of benzine at an intersection.

Gary.....I'd rather put you in the category of having more financial acumen.

A lot of Thais simply laugh at the PCX. The same ones will not laugh at the CBR by the way. Example in point....the young guy who we often use for our taxi driver to get to the airport, Korat to visit my gf's family, etc. He mentions how fat and unnecessarily heavy the PCX is and how fast the Nouvo Elegance is by comparison, stating it will do 120 kph. Now I personally don't think the Elegance will hit 120 kph but I do think it's good for another 10 kph over the PCX. The true beauty of the Yamaha Nouvo Elegance is it's designed for doing some rather serious business. Compared to smaller model motorbikes such as the Fino, Mio, and Click, it's got a long wheel base and substantially larger tires which translates into greater stability. It's got a lot more storage space. And it's got more grunt with its superb 135 c.c. engine. From what i understand a manual transmission Yamaha Spark is a pretty fast bike for its class and a good bike. However, it doesn't have the under the seat storage space the Nouvo Elegance has. The Elegance simply gets it all done while delivering good handling, a smooth ride great storage ability and it will even get over some pretty tall curbs due to its large diameter tires that an Air Blade for example will flounder trying to get over and I think the same would be true for the PCX.

Now, the PCX is not a bad bike. But comparing it to the Nouvo Elegance would be about like comparing a Mazda Miata sports car to a Honda Accord. The Accord is a great car for what it is and so it the Miata. And here I'm talking about relativity because a scooter cannot be compared to a high performance sport bike by any stretch of the imagination. The Miata is simply the finest sports car in its price range while the Accord is usually in the front ranks as the finest family sedan in its price range. Neither will compare to say a top of the line BMW passenger car or Porsche 911 but both are dam_n good for $30,000 or less. But the Accord is meant for families. It is does not even begin to match the Miata's sizzling handling or its sports car credentials. The Elegance is more like the Miata, slim, elegant, all business, great handling, easy to park, and quick and surprisingly quite comfortable. The PCX is more like the Accord...bulky by comparison and no match for the Miata on the road when it comes to speed and handling. But now.......when we start putting price in the equation it's like Honda all of a sudden raised the price of its Accord from $30,000 to $45,000.

I've been wondering about these price differences. It is hard not to believe that some communities are holding out for high prices, and others not. Does not have to be us - we've seen posted here a number of reports of significantly higher prices than those apparently is being charged in Pattaya.

There has been speculation that Honda's new three, Pcx to cbrs 150 & 250, are being sold out-of-country by local dealers in order to realize a better profit. I don't know, but it's clear that here in the North Honda dealers are charging more than elsewhere.

Their fooling around up here in CM decided me on another brand - forget the

You could be right. I've noticed that the PCX is now on the Honda U.S. web site. The Honda 150 SHi is still being made in Italy. Not sure on those PCX's for the American market which could be manufactured in Thailand. Suggested retail is around $3400 in the U.S. whereas the 150 SHi is $1100 more. Yamaha seems not to be making much of an effort in this market segment as you either go all the way to a 400 c.c. Majesty at over $6000 or the even higher priced T Max or you opt for the Vino or primo or zumas which it has been selling for some time in the 125 c.c. class and which seem a little prehistoric with their 12 inch little wheels, outdated looks and so forth. Perhaps Yamaha is presently gearing its Nouvos for an Asian market only whereas Honda sees its PCX as a world standard at European..American level prices whereas the Nouvo's are meant to sell at a lower price level. For now, that is.

We could be back to square on in the 1970's when Honda was offering very affordable well balanced all around bikes around 350 c.c's. in size but decided it would go for the big bucks by convincing potential buyers that you weren't really a man unless you had at least 100 horsepower and 1000 c'c's between your legs and for many years neglected the end of the market it had once served so well. Only this time around Honda will be trying the same tricks with scooters.

Your figures are way off. As I said, I checked with the Honda dealer about 2 weeks ago, and the price quoted for the PCX was B72,000, but he came down to B69,000 in a heartbeat. I think more discount was possible, but I'll stop there. The Givi Honda box is B4,000, and the one with the Givi name is B2,500. The Honda box has been styled for the PCX, so I'll use that. Forget insurance and registration, since it will be an equal adder to both bikes. PCX with box is B73,000. A Nuovo Elegance with alloy wheels is B56,000, which make the PCX 30.357% more expensive, no way near "double" -- more to the point, its a difference of about $566 spread over a few years of use -- a very small price to pay for a far FAR superior motorbike/box combination. And, if you didn't notice, the box slides off (with the key), leaving a flat rack (about 6 inches wide) on the back, with metal tubes to anchor the cords, which would be a far more stable surface to anchor a desktop computer. Or better still, you could move into the 21st century ands buy a laptop. And motorbikes by their very size and design are good for carrying around 1 or 2 people for fairly short distances, and not much more. People try to expand that use out of necessity, and some ways are certainly better than others. A box on the back is far better than hooks to dangle bags. I have seen people riding with 3 or 4 bags dangling from the mirrors, which works but I woundn't do it. As I said, I see the Thai side cars all of the time, and they are cheap ways to move a lot of stuff around -- I would not rate them or the Elegance as more practical or better "value" than the PCX. If you want 10 year old technology in a rather unappealing package (but 10cc more) and with hooks, the Yamaha Elegance will give you that for less money -- if you consider that "value" then you, as you said, have found the "deal of the century".

Figures way off? I'm getting them from the guys here plus what was given to me just last week at a local dealer. As to the box in the back, I suppose its costs is related to its quality. And from what I've seen of bike luggage I can't see a lot of long lasting quality coming from a box that is 2500 baht. I smell a lot of profiteering here by Honda dealers both for the 250 CBR and now the PCX. Now as to my moving into the 21st century and buying a laptop I'm into something like my sixth laptop now but find the need for several computers at my place due to how much and what I use them for. Now, you mention using the flat rack on the back as a far superior place to anchor cords? Where do you anchor them to on the bottom? The passenger foot pegs? And who cares if they are superior or not even if you had a place to anchor the bungee cords to on the opposite end if the rail on the back of the Nouvo Elegance's seat does the job every time? Your argument of this being superior setup for bungee cords makes about as much sense to me as your inviting people to hang bags on mirrors even if you wouldn't do it yourself. Once again you are not being logical. Your calling Yamaha's technology in the Nouvo Elegance 10 year old technology is complete rubbish by the way. Once again I see both the PCX and the Yamaha Nouvo Elegance as presently being the top bikes of their kind with advantages going to each one. But, even if the PCX has an overall edge over the Yamaha Nouvo Elegance, which I'm not going to concede, I hardly think it's worth paying 69,000 baht for it, let alone 75000 baht. Hey....even though a scooter is much more in tune with my needs I'd much rather pay an equivalent amount of money for the new 150 CBR and use external luggage and its mirrors for carrying my grocery bags than paying 75,000 baht for a PCX that probably won't even break 60 miles an hour.

The "list" price for a new PCX in Pattaya is B72,000, but fairly easy negotiation can get the price down to B69,000 (as of 2 weeks ago). The final line I suspect, if you really press, is B68,500. That includes all colors, including the popular candy apple red. I have one (not red, unfortunately), and it is an absolutely superb little bike. If you're a "bag man" with no other transportation, it may not be for you (gotta have those hooks ya know....). But for anyone that appreciates a smooth, agile and classy ride, it is as good as you can get.

I've made no secret of the fact that I really like the PCX, that it is a great looking bike, with its big tires and relatively heavy weight (for a scooter) it offers a great ride, good stability and a higher margin of safety, offers extremely good fuel economy, etc, but I think you've said it yourself......"if you're a "bag man" with no other transportation it may not be for you (gota have those hooks ya know)" You seem to imply here that a person might need to have a car and a bike because the PCX cannot compete with a bike that has all the books that can be used to transport large amounts of stuff. So on that note, I'd have to say that at 52,000 baht or so the Nouvo Elegance has to be the deal of the century as in many situations it can substitute for a car whereas its competition can't.

On that theory, a motorbike with a Thai built sidecar "has to be the deal of the century" because it can substitute for a car (or truck even) in many more situations than a motorbike with hooks -- can you carry four people on your bike? -- I don't think so. Is that any reason to own one??? (God, I hope that your answer is "no"). Many people that want to carry a lot on their bikes have a Givi box put on the back -- B2,500 and you can carry a pretty good load. I have a box on the back of my Phantom, but I have chosen to leave the PCX "naked" for appearance sake. Horses for courses, I think. If I didn't have a car (which I do) and only had the PCX, I'd put a box on the back. Then, I could carry safely and securely (it locks) everything that can be carried on a hook or two, and more. It is hard to believe that anyone would base their decsion on which motorbike to buy (or think that it is the "deal of the century") on whether it has carry hooks, especially when other cheap better alternatives exist.

I think you are getting way into left field by concluding that "my theory" would mean a bike with a sidecar has to be the deal of the century." The hooks and rail at the back of its seat are transparent on the Nouvo Elegance. They are built in features of the bike. For example the spots you can anchor bungee cords on the lower part of a Nouvo are near the passenger footpegs and cannot easily be seen unless you are looking for them. The guard rail behind the seat is unobtrusive and yet it provides an excellent upper anchor point. And the hook on the lower part of the fairing in front of the driver's knees is pretty unobtrusive as well. You can put up to four grocery bags across the hook. I've studied the PCX. You could have a hook installed there but the slope is wrong on the bodywork you'd be installing the hook to so the bags will tend to fall off the hook once you are in motion. On other bikes and certainly so with the Nouvo Elegance this bodywork is more perpendicular. Your comparing the installation of a sidecar to what I've been mentioning here is simply ridiculous as it is not transparent, and it adversely affects the performance of the bike in about every meaningful way. And as to your argument that one can install a box on the back, that's about like saying a motorcycle that is designed for racing is just as practical as a scooter because one can hang a box on its rear end. Face the facts.......the PCX is long on looks (although some here hate its looks I like its appearance), it's good for hauling people around who are rather large, and it's got a lot of other nice attributes but in terms of everyday practicality and value it comes way short of the Nouvo Elegance. Let's see....at 75,000 baht plus 10,000 baht for a box that's 85,000 baht which is double the price of a Nouvo Elegance and once you put the box on the back you are definitely not going to have a spot on which you can strap your desktop computer when you take it in for repair.

The "list" price for a new PCX in Pattaya is B72,000, but fairly easy negotiation can get the price down to B69,000 (as of 2 weeks ago). The final line I suspect, if you really press, is B68,500. That includes all colors, including the popular candy apple red. I have one (not red, unfortunately), and it is an absolutely superb little bike. If you're a "bag man" with no other transportation, it may not be for you (gotta have those hooks ya know....). But for anyone that appreciates a smooth, agile and classy ride, it is as good as you can get.

I've made no secret of the fact that I really like the PCX, that it is a great looking bike, with its big tires and relatively heavy weight (for a scooter) it offers a great ride, good stability and a higher margin of safety, offers extremely good fuel economy, etc, but I think you've said it yourself......"if you're a "bag man" with no other transportation it may not be for you (gota have those hooks ya know)" You seem to imply here that a person might need to have a car and a bike because the PCX cannot compete with a bike that has all the books that can be used to transport large amounts of stuff. So on that note, I'd have to say that at 52,000 baht or so the Nouvo Elegance has to be the deal of the century as in many situations it can substitute for a car whereas its competition can't.

Had this problem with a couple of bikes and my present car out here........... Solved the problem quite easily............ undo the petrol tank cap and let the pressure from the tank escape.......... get on the bike 2 throttle twists BEFORE starting and then hold the throttle open just a little bit and she will fire up straight away............ exactly the same with the car............ now have no problems.

All though that may work it doesnt solve the problem. It is a work around. He should be able to press the start button and drive away. He should not have to twist this and open that....

I'd bet Yamaha is aware of the problem and decided for now the problem is minor and the fix is more expensive than living with it. From my own personal experience and the large number of people reporting the same problem apparently it's the nature of the beast just as cold winters go with living in the northern portions of the U.S. When I look back on my living there and having to deal with having to start all my cars and pickup trucks, tractors (I lived on a farm), getting stuck in snow drifts, blizzards, etc I have to view my present "hard starting" experiences with my Nouvo Elegance" with a grain of salt. If this is a viable work around.....popping open the fuel tank cap, twisting the throttle twice and starting easily after a few short seconds, I'd say this whole thing is a laughable matter compared to all my wonderful cold weather experiences I had on the farm in the U.S. And most of the time due to my using my bike nearly every day, I never would have to use the work around. Fuel injection would seem to be the obvious cure. But from what I've read, the main reason Honda went fuel injection on all its bikes is it could not pass Thailand's emissions standards with their lineup of bikes with carburetors. Yamaha could.

I looked at the Honda PCX bikes in Loei and the best price I found there 75,000 baht. I did ride one that belongs to a friend of mine and I liked the way it drives and handles.

I decided not to buy one because I don't like the dual braking system and the start and stop feature at intersections is a total waste for me. I was also disappointed that there is no where to hook the handy bungee cords. I didn't like that bump on the seat either.

I bought a Yamaha Elegance and am quite happy with it. It has a handle on the back of the seat and several places near the back foot rests to hook bungee cords. It also has a hook under the handle bars. The only thing better about the PCX is the bigger fuel tank. The Elegance is also a bit faster than the PCX. I also saved 19,000 baht. The box under the seat between the two are about the same size. I'd rather have a smaller box and a bigger fuel tank on the Elegance.

I entirely agree with you that the only weakness of the Yamaha 135 c.c. Elegance is the fact that fuel storage is limited to 4.8 liters versus 6.2 for the Honda PCX. Fuel injection might be nice but if I were to change just one thing it would be to have additional gasoline storage. And like you I'd even be willing to give up a little under the seat storage space for a larger fuel tank. Now if Yamaha could only do a slight redesign to give us a larger fuel tank. I'd be in hog heaven with a 7 liter tank in my Elegance. I don't mind the carburetor. And I really find the hook in front of me to be very convenient for carrying two or three grocery bags. The rail behind the seat along with several anchoring points in the vicinity of the passenger footpegs are terrific for bungee cords which I use to strap all kinds of things behind me.....eg....a desktop computer going in for repair. Just try that with the PCX. And 135's is better than 125 cc's. And although the PCX is not bad when it comes to maneuverability and parking ease the Yamaha Nouvo Elegance is going to be better. When a PCX is going for 75,000 baht I'd take the Yamaha any day as a far better machine (for the money) and laugh all the way to the bank.

Stopped at the Honda dealer on Huay Kaew Rd today. They had the 2-tone silver. When I asked the price, they said 130,000. I told them "No Thanks. Too much.", then told them Honda had said 100,000 for non-ABS, 115,000 for ABS. The woman tried to tell me the 115,000 was BBK price. I laughed at her and told her it didn't cost 15,000 to ship from BKK to Chiang Mai, and the most I would pay is 120k. She tried to go with the argument that the 130 price included insurance, helmet, jacket, etc. Told her "No. I will go to Honda showroom by airport where the price is 120,000 and buy from them", then turned and walked out. She followed me out and saw my new 150 Tri-Color and then realized I was wearing Honda racing jacket and gloves, and her tone suddenly changed and she told me she would give me "discount" and let me have it for 125k. Just shook my head, got on the 150 and drove away.

Are you seriously thinking of giving up on your new 150 to get the new 250 assuming you get a decent price? Granted the CBR is getting excellent reviews both here and in the mags, but you did give some very compelling reasons for opting for the 150 the way you did, and at least for now it looks like the price spread is around 10,000 baht greater than what it was when you bought your 150.

I'll probably not get either bike although I'm tempted as realistically the Nouvo Elegance is about idea for the way I use a bike here in Pattaya. There really aren't many opportunities for going even 80 kph let alone even remotely hitting the speeds the 250 is capable of. As excellent as it is, the 150 fits me a little better as I'd be a little closer to the front end of the bike and feel just that much more on top of my driving. You mentioned your bike being a bit narrower than the 250 and it's probably being better in city traffic and this being a compelling reason for you choosing it the way you did. Lastly, one thing you did not mention that I've thought of.......the new 150 has to have terrific range now that its fuel tank has been upgraded to over 13 liters and given that it only has 150 cc's to feed and now has fuel injection. Incidentally, what kind of fuel economy are you getting? Also....I remember your mentioning how a Ninja 250 was getting stuck way behind in city traffic you were negotiating with ease on your 150. At that time you conjectured that the Honda 250 CBR might in city traffic be more on the order of the Ninja 250 rather than close to your 150 at slicing and dicing. WHat do you think now of the 250's prowess at slicing and dicing compared to your 150's?