Nacho

Ricardo, #19^

If even the military-junta appointed-government can offer a referendum, to change the Constitution, then I'd hope that any elected-government would at-least match that same level of democracy.

No level of Democracy is being matched.

Anything perpetrated by a coup administration was not Democratic.

When current Const. Reform referendum is done, it will be a first-time democratic exercise.

In this instance only comparing the coup 2006 aftermath to the present.

Nitirat proposals recognize this fact, and is why the coupists are so opposed to them.

"Progress towards democracy, and helping raise-the-level of the poor or under-educated"

A little bit of the Oppositional arrogance coming through.

Paternalistically patting these poor souls on the head, while those "poor souls" relegated them to the political wilderness, is somewhat amusing.

Reminds me of the investigator Colombo, toying with those who considered themselves so superior. The superior types didn't have a clue, as does this aloof Opposition.

What does all that mean Calgaryll?

A city in Alberta western Canada

Pretty much in the middle of know where.

http://maps.google.c...ved=0CDwQ8gEwAQ

I grew up there, and it is a beautiful city with mostly rational people. This guy is a one off. I just hope he keeps his mouth on the forums and doesn't end up on a red stage shouting his mouth at some point, embarrassing my home town.

Most importantly, I can say that Isaan people won't bow to injustice and destructive power outside the normal system that uses bias to chase the man named Thaksin Shinawatra, who assisted us. He gave us opportunities to have a better life.

If any individual or group feels that the TRT at the time assisted them and gave them opportunities to have a better life, that is a fair statement. However to suggest that Taksin did these things is utter nonsense. There are no one man shows in a democracy.

This is the exact reason that many can not take these groups seriously, and feel they are a threat to this country.

If these groups can forget about Taksin, and let democracy take it's course, those that oppose the PTP may not support but will at least tolerate them. At this point reconciliation can truly start.

Next it will be Red Thailand! BTW, what happens if you live in a village that becomes a Red village but you aren't a red? Do you opt out of this...erm... democracy... or stay yellow, or try to mix in and turn a kind of orange, or go multicoloured or try to preserve your village life and go green. The Thai political spectrum is truly amazing.

That wont be an option. If your village becomes red you have to adapt. If they cannot force you, and they will use force, you will be treated as paria in your own village. Noone will speak to you, nothing will be available to you in the local shops, your truck/tractor/bike will be vandalised, your electricity and water cut off etc. You do not believe me? Just wait, this is just the initial stage.

I can say with certainty, that Tanaka has never been around UDD/Red Shirts, or Red Shirt Villages in a meaningful way.

I know these people and have roamed these Villages.

What Tanaka proclaims is so far from reality, it is unconscionable. Unless one sees through it, an outsider would actually think he has a knowledge base.

What he is stating is what he has been conditioned to accept via the Opposition.

An Opposition non-plussed by how these people they are so contemptuous of, have in fact removed them to the political sidelines. They cannot accept this reality.

So they strike out at these people, denigrating them, and denying they even have political awareness other than through association. A truly arrogant and disdainful perspective.

This is the perspective that Tanaka is channelling. Not actual exposure to the people and places he discusses.

And I say this with certainty.

I can say with certainty that I personally watched a confrontation between my wife and a red shirt as a pickup full of them they tried to mount a red flag on our fence. My wife took the flag down and threw it in the ditch across from our house. A heated argument erupted between her and one of them. When I came out of the house they took off.

To try to suggest you know all the inner workings of this group is arrogant to say the least. There will always be people in any large group that try to sway others opinion through intimidation. To try to say otherwise is completely ignorant.

I am assuming all the posts that are opposed to the free health care are Americans or from another country that doesn't have universal health care.

Anyone who comes from a country with a universal health care system loves the fact that in times of health crisis they will be looked after no matter what.

There might be more people using the hospitals because they are free, but they are going there because they have a health issue, that could turn out to be something major if left untreated. No one goes to the hospital for just a fun day out. Come on.

I have 2 pure breed great danes we were not planning on breeding but unfortunately the girl is now pregnant.

If you are serious and sure you can provide a good home PM me for any interest or more details.

She should have the pups in the next few weeks.

what colour(s) are the parents?

Mother is harlequin father is black.

I have 2 pure breed great danes we were not planning on breeding but unfortunately the girl is now pregnant.

If you are serious and sure you can provide a good home PM me for any interest or more details.

She should have the pups in the next few weeks.

Yes we should not accept what this man did

But the real people to blame are those that can help, but have no intention to do so

If our Thai leaders have no respect for Thai laws

How can we blame to man who lives by example

Absolutely.

I am absolutely in favor of conflicts being resolved in democratic ways. However with the PAD getting ready to protest, and the reds mobilising, and some stating that they are willing to die to allow Thaksin to return. I feel that a coup is imminent, to avoid the most amount of bloodshed. Shame on this government for bringing us back to this. I just hope they can make some responsible decisions in the next few days to avoid any more damage to this already fragile country.

I hope that the long term plan would include a Bangkok to Chiang Mai path. Given that Chiang Mai is a top tourist location for Thailand - #2 best place to visit in the world - it would seem to be short-sighted to not consider it in any long term planning.

Had a friend from The Netherlands visiting in Bangkok. She wanted to come up but didn't want to fly - and wasn't up to a train trip given the time involved. A great high-speed train would be a great tourist draw. (Especially if cheaper than air-fare.)

But I'm a realist: doubt if Burma would help fund that line.

I wouldn't count on Burma. I read an article about Asian nations trying to develop the infrustructure in South East Asia. Every country completed their projects while Burma's never even got started. Not much of a suprise really.

http://lexens.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10&Itemid=12

Looks like Canada is the safe haven for criminals....or so they thought.

Last year it was Saxena, one of the longest extradition battles in Canadian history. This year Lai one of the longest extradition battles in Canadian history.

The comment Most people don't stay minimum wage earners their entire lives is appropriate for western nations, but not in Thailand. there is an entire subset of the wage earring demographic that are longtime minimum wage. Keep in mind that most workplaces in Thailand have no training or advancement programs. It is the rare employer that makes allowances for full time staff to attend university part time. Advancement is not an option at many employers focused on minimum wage employment. Churning of the work force is common. In many workplaces, workers do not qualify for enhanced vacations or benefits until they have worked for a certain period. Some companies will toss workers before they qualify for statutory severance required for longer term employees. The hospitality industry is notorious for laying off workers in low season. One of my friends was employed as a junior accountant at the property holding company of one of the wealthy powerful Thai families on Phuket. Like clockwork, as soon as some workers reached a certain length of employment, their position was eliminated and they had to go find work elsewhere and the clock started ticking again. One of the reasons Thai service quality is so poor is that outside of western based companies, staff are not considered an asset. The criticisms being made in this thread are valid in respect to some western economies, but Thailand has its own peculiarities such as a longer work day, longer work week and paucity of employee benefits.

I would have to argue your point. However I can only go off what I see from my Thai relatives. My wife's sister and her husband have both received promotions in their jobs this year (maybe it's their first one, I'm not too sure), have both been working for their companies for quite a few years now, and both have only a high school education. Her brother who is an engineer was upset with his wage a few years back and was considering moving on to another company, thinking that they wouldn't give him a wage increase. However being fed up, he asked for an increase before moving on and received an extra 2000 baht a day. So I don't see it being that different than in the west. Companies don't like to spend more money if they don't have to, but if they feel you are valuable and don't want to lose you they are willing to pay. But I can only speak from what I see around me. Maybe they are only working for more honest companies, or they are just more motivated than others.

I still stand firm that a gradual minimum wage increase is far better than all at once due to my points in the previous post. Your points on the longer work day, work week, and benefits are quite good, and I think creating laws to adjust them rather than a drastic minimum wage increase would be much better for peoples quality of living, than to take the risk of the massive inflation that the 300 Baht minimum wage all at once could possibly cause. 300 a day would definatelly increase quality of life, but if inflation goes up they are in the exact same or possibly worse situation than they are in now. And if what you say is true, and I don't doubt it that some companies are getting rid of employees at a certain length of employment so they don't qualify for severance, it would be a good policy to implement that makes employers more liable for their actions.

I don't know I just don't like how the 300 baht a day is such a risky poor thought out policy when there are so many other viable options that would increase standard of living without the possible drastic blow back effects. But I guess thats what populist policies get you.

Thank you for your effort at the perpetuation of the myth that minimum wage allows for a quality standard of life. These people may be in possession of a motorcycle or a home, but the mimimum wage class often do not own those things. Those material possessions are financed and the people live in debt waiting for the house of cards to collapse. No one at a minimum wage job can ever hope to save enough to own a home or motorcycle outright. They can however, live in a building crammed with family members with limited privacy.

Do you know what the minimum wage in Thailand is? The minimum wage ranges from 159 baht a day in Phayao to 221 baht in Phuket for a national average of 175 baht.

Do you have any idea as to what the cost of living is for many workers on Phuket? In higher paying Phuket that works out to about 5500 baht per month. My friend lives in a small room outside of Patong. He pays 5000 baht/month. Its basic. A cheap meal on the street goes for 40-60 baht now. If he cut corners, he could probably survive food wise at 100 baht/day which is approx. 3000 baht/month. Sure, if he lived on processed noodles and processed pig entrails it might be a little less, but some people do not want to eat garbage. That puts his starting costs per month at 8000 baht and he hasn't even paid for electricity or water or work clothes. Let's say he keeps all those other basic costs at 2000 baht per month, which means he dresses like a hobo and gets crap from his employer for looking like a Pattaya expat, altogether that puts him at 10,000 baht in basic living expenses per month. This would mean no healthcare insurance, no covering of costs for his motorbike, nothing else. One of the minimum wage girls I am aquainted with works at a typical tourist spot and lives in a similar room, except shecrams in her minimum wage boyfriend and her 1 son from a previous marriage. Combined income is better, but in her case she has to pay the expenses of a growing boy. School uniforms, school supplies and fees add up. They live in one <deleted> room smaller than my salon

Please don't tell me that people have more than a marginal existence on minimum wage in Thailand. The labour market is not free and wage costs have been artificially forced down. Any free market capitalist would understand that wages would have risen long ago as the available labour force shrunk. However, the government and the oligarchy have acted to keep wages low. Basically, the arguments for the status quo are the arguments that support the continued totalitarian interference in the labour market and this brings to mind the repressive Soviet state era where central economic planners forced down wages. Part of the capitalist equation is to accept that labour has the freedom to shiftt. Keep in mind that many of the government's economic policies indirectly subsidize the merchant class and service industry in Thailand. Tax policy, and infrastructure investment is not made with the needs of the minimum wage earner in mind.

The argument that somehow a small increase in minimum wage will force companies to relocate is weak. No hard evidence has been given to support the argument. What one has are projections based upon the same flawed thinking that was used to justify the government's interference in the labour market to keep wages low. An increase in worker income will fuel consumer spending and allow the workers some breathing room. A small increase in wages allows the wages to move in the direction of where they should be. I would like to see the people arguing against the wage increase try to live a month on a minimum wage income.

I would tend to agree with you to a certain extent, that the minimum wage does need to go up. However I think you are missing the bigger picture. Most people don't stay minimum wage earners their entire lives. They start their working lives out as minimum wage earners and as they gain experience / training / education they become more employable and can start to demand higher wages.

By increasing the minimum wage so much so quickly as proposed could very well put many of the small / medium businesses out of business, as their profit margins are already small. The big business experienced employees will start to demand higher wages because why should they work for the same wage as an unexperienced employee, causing massive inflation across the board and making future investment go elsewhere in the region. The only way the inflation could be cushioned is if the rest of South East Asia follows suit.

I could be completely wrong. No one really know for sure how the economy will be affected, but I would think a slow and steady approach where the wage increase is done over time would be much safer, as it could be monitored as to the effects on the economy and adjusted as needed. Putting all your eggs into one basket and hoping for the best isn't the smartest move.

A bit off topic: Where the countries money really needs to be put into is into it's education system, and to try harder to rid the country of it's mass corruption. The company I work for is a medium sized international offshore service company based here in Thailand. They have for years wanted to get out of Thailand and move to Singapore. Obviously not because of wages, but due to the fact that they can hire who they want, and I would assume the corrupt officials would have something to do with it. At the moment there are not many Thais who are qualified to do the jobs that they need, and they are hiring Thais only for the sake of hiring them to stay within the 4 Thais to 1 expat ratio. I have no doubt that the Thais could be trained to do these jobs, however the company has to stay within the international guidelines, and either very few to none of the Thai programs are recognised internationally. Thus making them unqualified.

I am no fan of this new government too - and we all know what their real motives are...

But they won - and they really should be given a chance without being cock blocked by the dems...

Whats best for Thailand now?

Maybe the current gov is really bad - But a military coup or a repeat of last years 'bangkok burning' is far worse...

Let them have their power.... let the poor people have their say...

Afterall the dems never won in the last 20 years - and for whatever reasons that is, its still a fact that they just dont know how to please ALL the people, only the educated ones...

Don't forget that only 48% of the voters voted for PTP, So the other 52% of the voters that did not vote for the PTP should not have justice if the PTP broke the law? Everyone must abide by the rule of law in a democracy even if they won 95% of the popular vote. Otherwise what is the point in having a democracy. This is something all parties need to understand, and they need to lead the country by example.

Every party without exception cheated in this and every other Thai election. Maybe they should all be disolved leaving nobody to run the country. Or maybe we could accept that being pragmatic and accepting that as flawed as the system is, it still gives a pretty good reflection of the will of the people in forming a government and how hopefully as thailand develops and people get better education things will improve

And that is the problem with Thailand. Look at the corruption in the police force. The only way for the country to develop is through as you say education and people being accountable for their actions, and this needs to start at the top. They need to be acountable for thier campaigning actions, as well as governence. That is why Taksin needs to be out of the picture. I am sure there are alot of people who voted for the PTP only because they thought they were a better option than the dems, not because of Taksin. Bottom line Taksin needs to go and let the PTP run this country without any influence from him for Thailand to move forward.

I am no fan of this new government too - and we all know what their real motives are...

But they won - and they really should be given a chance without being cock blocked by the dems...

Whats best for Thailand now?

Maybe the current gov is really bad - But a military coup or a repeat of last years 'bangkok burning' is far worse...

Let them have their power.... let the poor people have their say...

Afterall the dems never won in the last 20 years - and for whatever reasons that is, its still a fact that they just dont know how to please ALL the people, only the educated ones...

Don't forget that only 48% of the voters voted for PTP, So the other 52% of the voters that did not vote for the PTP should not have justice if the PTP broke the law? Everyone must abide by the rule of law in a democracy even if they won 95% of the popular vote. Otherwise what is the point in having a democracy. This is something all parties need to understand, and they need to lead the country by example.

Totally stupid move by the Democrats. They need to learn that all these attacks make them more unpopular and less likely to lead any government. It is time to accept the defeat and for the Dem party to take a long hard look at its own failures and unpopularity and work on these so that Thailand can have a viable alternative for government in the not so distant future.

To just blame others continually for your defeat is to never move forward.

Initially Abhisit did the right thing in congratulating and stating he wouldnt stand against Yingluck etc. Now we are back to the Dems just seeming like bad losers and driving people further into PTP support.

But they are now the opposition party. Isn't that the opposition parties job to keep the ruling party in check? To let them run free and do as they please would be a stupid move and a slap in the face to everyone who voted for them.

Why is it criminal to feed an elephant but not a street dog or pigeons?

-feet made for mud, not concrete : they burn

-eyes sore with pollution

-ears made to pick up sounds miles around the jungle immersed in heavy traffic .

-possible stories of drugged elephants .

-finally, a mad elephant will charge ; or just a clumsy elephant will back up on your toes.

-they were made illegal 15 years ago already.

That isn't the question which is "Why is it illegal to purchase food to feed an elephant?"

The BMA has recently imposed a stern regulation, banning mahouts from bringing their elephants into Bangkok. Violators will be subject to a 6-month jail term or a 10,000-THB fine. The law, which has been put in effect since 22 June, also applies to people who buy food for the elephants.

I don't see how buying food for an animal can be deemed illegal. If Somchai brought a pet "lion" on a chain into Central Bangkok, it might be extremely dangerous, but I wouldn't presume it would be illegal for someone to purchase food for it. But then again of course, I don't write or interpret the crazy laws in this country.

Per se, if I had a pet elephant in my back garden, and a friend bought food for it, that would be illegal???????????

What if you give the food for free? Is that legal?

I can't wait for the headline "Foreigners arrested for feeding elephant"

This new law seems to be for Bangkok only. Althought I think it should be implimented in all larger cities within the country. The reason for it being illegal is it is well documented as being cruel to these large animals living within a major city. They have made this law to try to put a stop to this. Anyone who really wants to feed an elephant should go to one of the elephant parks around the country where the elephants are most likely enjoying their lives.

I live in the heartland of Red country and the depth of feeling is unmistakable.

I live in Chiang Mai - Thaksin territory - and slim is partially.right. The feeling is unmistakable: Most redshirt sympathizers saw the violence and hatred on May 19 and have turned their back on them. Thai people do not want a civil war and they want decent lives. Destroying tourism has not helped anybody or anything and the redshirt leaders have quite effectively pointed out that they are only interested in power and lining their own pockets.

Hopefully, Thais will support the PM in the next election. Like Prime Ministers Chuan and Arnand before him he actually has their best interests in mind. There are not a lot of local politicians who can make this claim.

Sorry to disagree with you UG but i have a complete reversal of feelings that have made me come to the conclusion while it may be said a lot of people who support the Red shirts may be a little pissed of of the recent antics of a few they still remain loyal to the movement (and sadly Thakskin)In actual fact i am surprised at the amount of people in various prominent positions who i would never have dreamed of as being red shirt supporters that have turned out to be. I am not saying this is a good thing or not but just a different observation.

I Have to agree with UG. From the Thais I associate with, of course there are some people who are so red that their minds will probably never change. I have seen some change their stance from giving mild support to the reds before the protests to wanting nothing to do with them. I am yet to know someone to change the other way and I doubt I will.

I spend most of my time between Khon Kaen, Bangkok, and Chiang Mai, So have seen more than 1 group of peoples opionions.

The reds need to get as far away from Taksin as possible if they want to have any legitimacy. In the reds hearts they may be after after a better place in society, but Taksins money is making it all happen so he is in control. So sad, most everyone would truly like to see a better situation for the poor in Thailand, but they just seem to get constantly exploited. This governments road map is the best hope they have at the moment.

Judging from the leading peaceful countries, New Zealand and Iceland, it would seem the key to peacefullness is to be situated in a remote location with no bordering countries.

Indeed. Theres no disputing that.

Easy way out? Regarding this theory half he planets nations should have "red shirts" burning down the house!

I live on Ko Samui here is no "social strife".... but everyone can feel waht all this rioting for "genuine democracy" did... many gone out of business already and they are the "have not's", the seasonal workers, the soup stall owners, those who seell fruits and other goodies at the beach - those who should have "benefited" from all this, have been hit worst, through the action of their feinted "friends" buy the lies and empty promises of the con-men they put their trust into.....it's nut's, absolutely nut's!

It had the absolute reverse effects, it didn't help anyone, only a few swollen ego's... feel maybe "good" about the havoc they created!

I hope for the sake of this nation that this will never, ever be allowed to be repeated!

Koh Samui is hardly the picture of Thailand. It is a Farang Island being catered to by Thai's. You are obviously one of the those that benefit from the extreme low wages paid in Thailand. You enjoy being catered to on the beach by fruit sellers trying to scrape together 200 baht for the day. People have risen up against inequality from day one and you say that things should just go on the same. The rage that was shown in Bangkok did not come out of the air. It has festered for a long time. The history of the USA is strewn with riots and burnings and corporation and governments being forced into change that benefits all the people. I also hope it will not be repeated, but Thailand has to change, even if your idyllic Koh Samui retreat becomes as expensive as the South of France.

I belive he was only trying to point out that the people that were hurt most by the protests were the same people who were fighting for change. Violence is never the best answer.

Also the USA is hardly the best role model for equality. Australia, New Zealand and Canada are all countries of a similar age who have gotten to where they are today with a fairly peacefull history as far as I am aware, and New Zealand tops the chart in referance to this thread.

It should be interesting, because from a number of people that I have spoken to from Red Shirt heartlands Khon Kaen / Udon Thnai / Nakhon Ratchisima have become quite disgusted by the actions of The Red shirts in Bangkok, and these were people who were previously very much supportive of Thaksin et al. I think the PTP may be complacent if they believe that people are just going to continue to accept the BS that they have been fed.

Exactly. I spent the last 3 weeks of the protests with the wifes family in a small village in Khon Kaen and I was suprised to see the number of people that were actually yellow supporters. Of course there were alot of hardcore reds whos minds will probably never change, but most of the people were just red sympathisers, and I know alot of them were completely discusted with the way the reds were behaving near the end. One woman walking by was braging about being on TV when the government building in Khon Kaen was set on fire. and the woman next door was yelling at her that her son was stuck in his apartment in Bangkok without food and water because of the reds actions.

It makes me laugh that the wife who used to love Taksin and argue with me about how good he is, now ironically hates him.

I highly suspect the PTP have lost alot of support and doubt they gained any in the last few months. Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt it.

The party that performed this attack would have been instantly obliterated had they been successful. The imapct from the entire fuel depot going off would have been immense with a huge blast raduis (there are a series of fuel storage containers immediately adjacent that would have exploded simultanously). I think people are thinking it would have been a big fire - but this stuff explodes surely (highly combustible avaition fuel) it is not slow burning oil.

What a load of <deleted>....this stuff doesnt explode....and actually is a slow burning type oil, oil doesnt explode, explosions come from hydrocarbon vapours not the liquid....also deluge systems on the tanks would have operated, if any pressure build up in tanks PSV's operated/and frangible joints gone....would have been a fire.....not nice... but not a F*kcing explosion with a "huge blast radius".....you have been watching too many Hollywood movies

Also please explain your simultanous tank explosion theroy...

Biggest load of cr*p I have read in a long time

I have worked on two refineries that have started on fire, one from a broken 3 foot pipe that leaked naptha. I belive avation fuel is at least as combustible. The damage caused by a leak from only a 3 foot pipe was half a billion dollars. The initial flash from when the fumes ignite can travel a further distances than you think. Who knows how big of a hole could have been blown in the side of a fuel storage contanier, but you are right simutanious explosions would not occur, there are safety standards put into place ie. safe distances between contaniers and ditches built between them to make sure this doesn't happen. Thankfully noone was hurt in this incident and I hope the culprets are found and procecuted.

I am in the exact same situation as you. got a 1 year multiple entry o, and then had to get a new passport, which i got in bangkok. I never went to thai immigration after getting the new passport and left the country with no problem. I have come and gone from thailand about 5 times always showing both passports and have never had a problem, always get a 90 day stamp. So don't worry too much about it.

"Mr Suthep added that the flight schedule should not be considered a secret information"

That is exactly what I was thinking. What exactly has he been arrested for? A spy or something?

I thought Taksin was supposed to be only in Cambodia to teach them about economics.

Doesn't the circumstances for his arrest just strengthen the case that Taksin is really there for something different?

How long has he been locked up for already....poor guy.

I never followed politics when I lived in Canada, but I can't help but to follow it while living here. It's just too exciting. Like an eposode of the Sappranos!!!

Maybe just to add to this, different operator's/clients have different requirements when it comes to HUET/BOSIET, although OPITO certified training is most recognised/accepted worldwide...it may or may not always comply with operator/client requirements...so you need to check what the requirements are.

Reason I add this is because per the above description of a validity of 4 years, techincally this wouldnt be acceptable in the Gulf of Thailand because the maximum re-certification interval is either 2 or 3 years dependent on which operator you are working with.

Would they make someone who had the 4 year validity redo their training, most likley not, but not a given.

You are right about OPITO not being accepted throughout the entire world, but I can't imagine a course being heald in Thailand mainly for Thai's not being recognized in the Gulf of Thailand, especially when They have a TPTI office on site. From what I understand TPTI is the Thai legislative body for offshore training. Maybe there will be a restriction on the card. I will clarify tomorrow when I finish the course.

Or of a non-50% majority party that can make a coalition exist.

ie hold the most seats, via agreements with smaller parties.

If not the biggest vote getting party, then the next largest party by votes,

can then do the same. If neither party can put together a viable coalition,

then a new election is called.

There have been coalitions in some countries of several small parties

that overshadowed 2-3 larger parties but made and held their coalitions.

All quite proper in parliamentary systems.

Thaksin was elected "by the people" as a MP and nothing else.

He was elected as PM by his party and his coalition members votes.

Lacking a viable coalition, he is now trying to regain power in any means he can pull it off.

Exactly and that is what Thailand has in power now.

Too many TV Thaksin supporters post absolute nonsense with obviously no knowledge of any politics in this country. I wonder if they would still keep their same opinions if they did about half an hour of constructive research?