Meridian007

Rockets were being fired at the same time as the grenades to cover the grenade launches, the reds are complicit with the launches, there is no other way of looking at what happened last night. The reds are in control of Lumpini and there is no other realistic launch point in the area given the built up nature of sala daeng.

I was thinking the same thing. I also heard rumour of RPGs being used, and depending on the ammunition, that would also extend their range, but would be more visible, hence the rockets.

MacKinnon's tweet was soon after the blasts, so I think there was a lot of confusion in the area. It was interesting to watch things unfold over twitter last night, I think it has surpassed regular news outlets for live coverage. I watch about twenty different accounts, a mixture of western and Thai journalists, as well as regular people who are out there, (both red and not-red).

Wow, I just read the news updates, and this should get the joke of the day award:

THE NATION: Nattawut: Enough death and violence. He insisted that redshirts would stay on peacefully.

Wow! Especially coming from him, this is the biggest laugh I've had all day. Maybe he has a bridge he'd like to sell us as well?

If they even showed some remorse, it would be better, but I remember the reports of them laughing and dancing when they heard that people died, and Jatuporn stating that it was of no concern to them...

It is curious that in apportioning the blame, you include everyone except the entire red leadership and organization. Without talking about who pulled the triggers on the grenade launchers, let me suggest you read the following. Today's CNN "explainer". CNN often uses these simple explainers presumably to help their less informed readers. Here's the Headline, the one image, and the link.

Explainer: What are the protests in Thailand about?

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/...dex.html?hpt=T1

My only point being, if you want to begin to consider blame, you need to understand the storyline, otherwise it will always be tit-for-tat

It is a good overview, but I fear that their comments section has been infected with the same misguided souls who believe that this is about freedom and equality. It sadly is not, and I think the article highlights well the true reason for this violence. One old man's stolen money. Sad.

Of course it was the reds. They have threatened this. Red shirt apologists, you should be ashamed.

Where is your proof that the red shirts are responsible? You're ASSUMING. Don't confuse people with lies before you have facts, please. Nobody knows who attacked who tonight. Nobody knows who launched the bombs.

the logic of people saying that the REDS did this is just the sort of response that is to be expected and wanted by those opposed the them - just another reason to send in the army with all its might and remove them -- there are so many good stories coming from the govt side - like no live bulllets used on saturday and then 24 hours later a senior ARMY doctor stated that those killed where hit by live rounds --- just who is going to keep believing all this missinformation -

for all we know it could be a faction of the yellows just trying to accelarate the situation or even the so called peace loving pinks -- what next - maybe the rainbow warriors --- but to have everyone jumping on the anti red band wagon and point the fingerr - come on -- believe 20% of what u read -- and then divide by 2 --

the fact is that the whole truth will never come out and what ever sided did it - shame on them - but lets hold off to judge - i still for one dont thnk the reds had anything to gain apart from turning more people against them and what they really want is more support - so why the hel_l would they do this - ???? these sort of actions will turn everyone against them --

How about western eyewitness accounts? I was watching the twitter accounts of many journalists who were there on the front lines last night, here is one shortly after the first attacks at 8pm from Mark MacKinnon (East Asia correspondent for Canada's national newspaper, The Globe and Mail.):

What I saw/heard were fireworks fired from Red side over police barricade. Not M79s, as some reporting.

Evidently there was some confusion as to whether it was m79s being fired or rockets, (I think the subsequent damage proves it was M79s), but the key part for me is "What I saw/heard were fireworks fired from Red side over police barricade." This is just one of many eyewitness accounts, (the rest are in Thai), and this one is from a foreign journalist. There are also reports of the reds cheering while firing these off. Lastly, one of the second round of attacks was at Bangkok Bank, (who else would bomb that Bank?).

To me it is pretty clear who did what. I know that the aplolgists will sing the old "It was fake reds! They didn't have authorization!", but that song is getting old and see-through.

Now it's up to 75 injured, 1 dead. I hope the reds appreciate that they've signed whatever the government needs to stop their madness.

I know, the baldfaced lies from the reds are amazing. I'll bet we will soon hear how "fake-reds" or soldiers in hiding set off the rockets/grenades tonight. Unbelievable.

...And, here we go. According to a first hand report from Mark MacKinnon (East Asia correspondent for Canada's national newspaper, The Globe and Mail.):

What I saw/heard were fireworks fired from Red side over police barricade. Not M79s, as some reporting.

The news as it stands now is that a Thai and a foreigner were injured. This is what happens when foreigners think it would be cool to take part in something that is outside of their experience. The reds wanted to scare away the ABR group, ("AnythingButRed" - my vote for what the currently multi-coloured group should be called, its easier to type), but curious foreigners get caught in the crossfire.

***Edit***

I got the report from his twitter, http://twitter.com/markmackinnon

When it all explodes, the foreigners wandering around like morons will get injured, and then start bleating about how their embassies won't take care of them and pay the hospital bills that their insurance companies won't cover because of civil unrest. If anyone lacks common sense they deserve what's coming.

They deserve what's coming eh?

How sensitive and compassionate of you.

Lop off their heads I say, naughty bloody blighters.

No, better still, slowly roast them over a barbecue while tearing their limbs apart.

Whatever makes you feel good mate.

If foreigners go there of their own free will knowing the dangers, (which are quite obvious, I don't think either side can say that the tensions between the military and the reds are not high), and get injured or killed, you think that they should get compensation for their stupidity? Wow. Do you believe that if you shoot yourself in the head, your insurance company should pay you?

Does anyone know if they are letting foreigners in now? I've been hearing all day about foreigners being denied entry. I know the reds don't want any negative publicity, (hence closing things off), but I agree with the posters that have said that this is an opportunity for them to heal their image, which really took a beating once they started killing people in their defense offense against the army. If they want to try to present themselves as poor victims rather than as terrorists, I would think that this is the way. Just don't go after dark.

Next it will be reds under the bed, is this fear of the reds linked to the brain washing that has gone on in the us of a?

Sorry, I'm not American. And as I've stated in many other threads, if it truly was a red "socialist" movement I'd probably support it.

However, this is about what was experienced by a couple of people today downtown, in what seems like a security clamp-down. I'm just curious as to its connections with race. Maybe I should take Lumumba up on his offer, and join him down there to see if we can get in. As people get off work, there will be a need for people to go through the red barricades, hopefully they are allowed to go through to their homes.

Racism is a serious accusation and needs to backed up with more evidence than a tweeter.

This is not only my opinion but I believe also the law.

Reds spin? think you will find its the other way around.

http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile....tatements/2498/

You're pulling the libel card so quickly? Really, I'm merely interpreting what others have experienced first hand. "Pics or it didn't happen" isn't justifiable in this case.

As to spin, both sides do it, but the reds seem to have cornered the market on weakly put together spin. Abhisit's "kill them all" video for instance.

I'm sure it can't last, what about all of the foreigners who live in the area? They'll have to let people in sooner or later. Hopefully Weng, (or Weera, if he makes an appearance), can rein in the rabid dogs again.

So based on a few Tweats you open a new thread accusing Reds of being racist. mmm

There was a Ferang on stage the other day talking so its not racism.

Probably more to do with Ferang being sent in to spy and print bias reports in yellow rags.

So I guess their "democracy" doesn't include freedom of speech? I agree with BKKJames analysis, it is probably to stop any leaks that the reds are not necessarily united in their belief of the propaganda that is yelled at them 24/7 from the red stages.

Also, this seems to be a recent phenomenon, and will probably change when the cooler, more intelligent heads prevail. Anyone remember the widespread denouncement of journalists from the red stage last week when the news wasn't supporting the red's spin? Weng realized that it was suicide to alienate the journalists, and started begging them to come back. That's why anyone who is deemed to be a journo is still allowed in.

If you look at the TRT years, the country began its slide into closing its doors while the other ASEAN countries have continued to open theirs more. Draw your own conclusions...

I was just noticing two re-tweets from George's twitter:

Dany.k: Farangs not permitted to enter the red base at silom. Media is fine I think. I was stopped! @tulsathit #redshirts #redtweet

Captain W: @tulsathit Reds don't like luk kruengs at their base too! I went to take pics, and tried to buy a hat. They refused, told me to leave!

It looks like paranoia and racism are mixing in strong measure down there. Is this a foreshadowing of their policies if they regain power? "Thai love Thai" indeed...

Perhaps they'll borrow the old "England for the English". It will become "Thailand for the Thais", and we will suffer the consequences. I wouldn't be surprised, considering the similarities of the two groups in levels of ignorance and myopic hate.

I'm glad that the reds are a minority in Bangkok.

******Edit******

As an addendum, this isn't about the red's politics at all, merely their social leanings as evidenced by their behaviour.

Still, tit for tat. If the red elites want to impact the sales of the non-red elites, they should also suffer.

I'm surprised that the business owners in Ratchaphrasong don't start constructing metal gates on the ground floor of their buildings. If they were able to make the ground floor of all the buildings into a wall of steel, the leverage of the protesters would be gone.

One needs to approach this question from an arm length's perspective and not allow a personal like or dislike for Thailand bias the decision.

I cannot speak for other regions, but it is quiet on Phuket. The beach chairs are showing 25% occupancy. That might reflect the world's economy, but I think it is more a function of the scorching heat. My AC conked out friday.

I believe that Bangkok is a place to be avoided and that it will probably get worse before it gets better.

The airport Saturday and Sunday seemed secure and calm to me. Outside of the protest zones, tourists are safe, for now.

Based on the ongoing turmoil, only a fool would travel to Bangkok in the next week at minimum. Stay away. If you go and there is a problem, you are responsible. Do not look for help from your government as it most likely has a very stern warning now posted to avoid travel.

This is one of the strongest posts against the idea. Would you say that I'd be a fool to continue with my plan of arriving in Bangkok, staying overnight in my hotel in On Nut, then going from there?

I'd probably spend a day or two around On Nut, meet up with my Thai associate in Bangkok, then get a flight to Phuket for a while.

I would agree that going on to Phuket is a good idea. If you have to stay in Bangkok, On Nut is far enough into the east end, away from most of the conflict. (it's in the west end, near my neighbourhood! )

A day or so shouldn't be so bad, but do all of your business out in On Nut. Stay away from the core areas and you will be fine. If you don't have to meet your contact in Bangkok, use that $50 ticket-change fee to jump on a cheap flight down to Phuket, and tell your contact to meet you there. Honestly, even I'm thinking of getting out of town for a bit. Songkran will be really depressing in Bangkok this year.

It isn't as if Abhisit is some monster of a dictator, if you look at him objectively through international eyes. He is competent, (if ineffectual), and can serve out the amount of time it takes to reform the constitution and the judicial system.

[/quote

Nice guy, good education, very civil....but held hostage to a system which is just a veneer over a military controlled government. He may even want to make constitutional changes and fix the judicial system, but if he tries in any meaningful way the big hammer will come down on him...the one held by the folks who really run Thailand. It's the guys behind Abhisit that the Reds are after not him personally...even if they chant "Abhisit out" over and over...he is just the mouthpiece..the front man...not the real issue.

As to the alternatives.. ....I hear Ecuador is a nice enough place to live...and cheap

What you say is true, but if there is one thing that the protests may achieve, it is that a sense of transparency is needed. If it is given, then it will become more difficult for all of the "invisible hands" to crush certain changes. I think that the military, (and other hands), will be difficult thorns to remove, which is why this won't be magically fixed by an election. There isn't anyone who can lead the country in the way it should be for the good of Thailand, so the best out of the rest must be chosen.

I guess my wife, FIL and MIL aren't Thai. I've seen all of them use maps properly, in more than one country in my wife's case.

I agree, it's the same with my girlfriend. The only time we had a problem was with a gps, not a map, when we were leaving Paris by car. She depended on the GPS too much and couldn't see that its heuristics in finding us a route were flawed.

I'm a map and gps person myself, I prefer to compare both while navigating.

from where thailand is for the last few years, there can be only progress.

army and police would be moved further from the interference into running politics and courts.

general election would show what the public opinion is, so the majority can be heard.

the red win might empower the working class to struggle for more, whether it would be through the trade unions or an independent, democratically run party.

Nice ideas, but a little too idealistic. It will take more than an election alone to achieve what you say, and it will take time. One election isn't going to magically turn this into a western democracy, with its well-hidden corruption, and surface focus on ethics. I wish that it could be like you say, but it won't happen like this. There needs to be constitutional and judicial reform before any elections. Then there needs to be an election that is possibly organized and monitored by an external state or organization. I've heard them say that the current government should be dissolved, and then the next government can do this, but that is an inefficient way to do it. Why disrupt the society more by government change now. It isn't as if Abhisit is some monster of a dictator, if you look at him objectively through international eyes. He is competent, (if ineffectual), and can serve out the amount of time it takes to reform the constitution and the judicial system.

@simpathy, please read rather than trolling.

dont tell people she a capitalist. TO PEOPLE here its like treason!!!!!!!!!!!

ahhh, you answere my question. when was the nexxt reg. election going to be held?

it all makes sense now. the reds have nothing but 500 baht as their guiding principle. i doubt the country is tearing apart because of the reds, they are just a nuisance!

Capitalism is okay, it's the megalomania of one capitalist that makes the current situation dangerous in my view. He has "lost face" and if given the chance at power here again, he will seek severe revenge. I think that in order to rule here, he will say that he is sorry, but the time for democracy is not now, (and many will agree, who are now supposedly fighting for it), and then he will remove it. From there, Thailand will either fall apart and begin to look like any number of failed states in Africa, or it will become a closed, centralized regime like that in Myanmar.

Somehow, this all needs a reset. I spoke to a good friend of mine, (he is Thai), who although he is an intellectual, supports the red shirts. A while ago, he said that he thinks the reset will only come with blood. Well, we've had blood, but the situation seems more dire than before. How much blood? Does Thailand have to become a failed state for twenty years or more before it gets better? (I mean real failed state, unlike those who say that Thailand already is. When roving gangs of armed killers and rapists start disassembling all of the infrastructure here, I'll classify it as failed)

The reds cannot offer any good policy plans other than money appearing by magic to pay the people who came out to protest, and bringing dear leader Thaksin back. How will this make the country better? Abhisit is not perfect by a long shot, (which I blame more on his coalition partners than him), but he created some stability that Thailand could have built on to catch up to its ASEAN partners with. The longer crap like this goes on, (and you must admit that the protesting of some crazed group will continue if there are snap elections. There will be reds or yellows in the streets no matter which side wins), the further Thailand falls behind Vietnam, Indonesia, and Malaysia. Before Thaksin came in, Thailand was set to be the next "Asian Tiger" country. The `97 crisis killed that, but it was populist policies that he brought to Thailand that created the rift that has slowed Thailand's ability to recover like its neighbors have.

The next elections are scheduled for December 2011. The nine month, three month, 15 days garbage is all a struggle for who gets to influence the new leadership of the military. This is one of the things that must change, The military must ONLY support the government that is in power, not some faction in society. Whoever leads it must not have connections with any group, it must be a tool of the government, and nothing more.

To say that the reds on the street have only 500 baht as their guiding principle is just as shallow of a judgment as saying that they have democracy as their guiding principle. The deeper issue of motivation here is much lower on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Whether these people understand democracy or not is irrelevant, these people are focused on the basic and safety needs of survival and comfort. They want food on the table, and a tv to watch. Right or wrong, Thaksin was smart to manipulate them by using populist policies to give them "democracy they can eat". This has had a lasting effect on their general psyche, and is why everything is focused on him. I don't believe he is the best way forward however, so I hope that something can be done with those earlier plans of bringing the former PMs together to work as mediators and facilitators for something new out of this.

Thanks for that Gaccha.

I would suggest that people use Krung Thon bridge, I think that although the Rama 8 bridge is open, it is difficult to get anywhere from the corner of Visut-Kaset and Ratchadamnoen Nok.

You can check routes here: http://traffic.thai.net/

Nuttawut:

" M79's were fired at the soldiers, but not by us.

Bangkok police chief: Man in black fired grenade launcher and troops then fled scene."

More of their "fake reds"? This particular lie is becoming more and more tiresome.

Firstly, I offer my deepest consolations and sympathies to the grieving families of soldiers and rioters who have died. I hope that the wounded recover as speedily as possible.

I did watch Abhisit this morning offer condolences to the familes, then I watched a high-up Red shirt spokesman on BBc news , he pontificated for over 10 minutes but not once said "my sympathies are with the dead and injured" or any words of sympathy to their families. They are expendable footsoldiers to the Red Leaders. He just played the whole partisan propaganda BS nonstop.

Reporters and camera crew sent to armed riot zones know exactly the danger it entails. My sympathies are with his family too.

The whole ' who fired first', 'who told who to f_off', is a total absurdity and a nauseous game of low-wits. The fact is this : the people who died and were injured were 99.9% almost entirely Thais. Thai soldiers, from working-class poor backgrounds, just normal Thai lads just like the rioters.

Nobody wins in armed uprising. Innocents die. No progress is made. Progress is a slow process that takes years and decades and occurs by gradual social shifts in ideology, not by violent street rioting.

The only people who ever stand to benefit from this are the ones who are miles away from the fights : Thaksin on his holiday island and his leaders in their safe bunkers somewhere. Everyone else gains nothing and stands to lose so much.

I agree completely. This is why I've said from the start that the saddest part of this is that it is not about democracy, it is not about equality, and it is definitely not about peaceful protest.

The poor are desperate enough to be used as cannon fodder, and are thrown against conscripted men that come from the same region as them. Brother killing brother. As to the leaders, while both sides are culpable, I've only heard calls for violence from one side. Hopefully their thirst for blood has been sated and they will be willing to go home and pursue this in a more rational manner.

The bbc reports are very clear in stating the trouble started AFTER the army fired tear gas.

The BBC has been biased about Thaksin-related issues for a long time, I trust them for a lot of other things, but not for anything relating to Thaksin.

You can see in this that during the heat of the battle there was tear gas, but it wasn't there at the start.

so you believe them for things that you support but they suddenly become liars when they talk about something you don't support?

laughable

No, I just like to get my news from multiple sources, and then see what is most likely closest to the truth. The BBC has failed in this regard many times in issues that relate to Thaksin in Thailand. You can laugh all you like, but I prefer critical thought.

The bbc reports are very clear in stating the trouble started AFTER the army fired tear gas.

The BBC has been biased about Thaksin-related issues for a long time, I trust them for a lot of other things, but not for anything relating to Thaksin.

You can see in this that during the heat of the battle there was tear gas, but it wasn't there at the start.