Meridian007

Look at global indexes on happiness. You'll see that countries that follow some precepts of socialism tend to have a happier population. It's countries like the states that have an unatuaral fear of it that have a greater divide of rich and poor, and less life satisfaction and happiness.

Canadians do seem to have a soft spot for the Fidel Castro's and Cesar Chavez's of the world. Pity these reds also happen to be totalitarian dictators. Inconvenient truth. Extremes of both the left and the right are a lethal brew. Also like right wingers, they have their scapegoats, in Castro's case gays (which Thaksin's reds show signs of copying) in Chavez's case Jews.

Well, as a Canadian, I can't say I support Castro or Chavez, but I don't think socialism is a bad thing. If this movement was really about bringing socialism to Thailand, (or even democracy, both very difficult goals), I would support the reds completely.

Sadly, this is just the lie that the front line of the movement is being fed by their leaders. Those on the ground may not understand the intricacies of democratic, representative government, or government social assistance, but they do understand food on the table for themselves and their families. That is their goal. It is sad that such a large amount of the population have been left to live this way, but it's not the fault of the current government alone. ALL former governments did the same, but Thaksin was smart enough to throw some scraps, and now they are hungry for more with his promises of universal wealth. "A mia noi for everyone!"

The leadership of the red shirts and Pheu Thai, (and by extension, their paymaster, Thaksin), are all a bunch of rich businessmen, and therefore a part of the "elite" when looked at from a class perspective. Sure, they don't have as much of a direct connection to the invisible hand, (unless you believe some rumours about some of Thaksin's hidden friendships), as the current government does, but I think that is what is angering them. They have been pushed out of the trough that they had control of for so many years, and they want back in, by any means. It is merely convenient to use the poor as footsoldiers to achieve their goals, so a few lies, a few doctored tapes, and some hate mongering is needed to rile the troops.

I feel sorry for Thailand.

Actually the leaders of the "red shirts" are members of the legitimate government that were forced out by gun point. The "certain convicted criminal" was never even offered a day in court rather convicted before the court date as well as sentenced which is why the Western countries will not extradite him. As far as what the "red shirts" actually want is a free election and the "yellow shirts" to stop making coups when they don't like the result. The "red shirts" want freedom and democracy and although they may be blocking a few streets they are not the ones making coups and shutting down international airports nor are they the ones that looted the vaults at parliament and the capitol buildings. Personally it's not my business but the comments made here are as truthful and accurate as FOX News, you would be better off trying to find the truth in MAD Magazine. As far as the right wing tea baggers and Sarah Palin go I doubt they could find Thailand on a map.

I assume the comments you've made here are the ones you're talking about? You've been watching too much red-tv I think. All of your assertions have been addressed ad-nauseum on this forum, I'd suggest that you search before stating things that have already been dis-proven many times.

Well, I wouldn't say disinterest, but the lies, rhetoric and calls to shocking levels of violence coming from the red stage are getting boring. Its reminding me of those dolls with the pull string in the back that then repeat the same phrase over and over. "Thaksin! Money! Democracy Ooops, I mean, whatever WE want! Kill all dissenters!"

Funny, I see the same thing with the red apologists as well, but theirs is totally delusional. "Non-elected government! Suvarnabhumi! It's not about Thaksin!"

Boring.

I'm afraid that I'm too busy to travel downtown through barricaded roads to hug a red shirt today, sorry!

I'd prefer to have one of the fine lads of the Royal Thai Army dispense with the hugs for me. Maybe if we can get them to do that in large enough numbers, (and after the hug, lift and carry to detention vehicles), our lives can return to normal! Yay!

I'm sure that would be a photo-set that the papers would pay dearly for! Even if they aren't paying for the rooms, it highlights the differences between the leaders and followers in this "People's Movement".

Back on air!!

http://www.uddthailand.com/

where there is a will there is a way.....

but is it back on cable TV

Yup, but not hearing any of these "fireworks". What's the story?

Have you held an election or an opinion poll to determine what the vast majority of foreigners think? No, I didnt think so, in which case this is a guess on your part or perhaps too much reading and also believing the opinions of the Nation newspaper.All of the Fallang I know want to see this Government gone preferably ASAP as it obviously cannot run the country.

Interesting I don't know a single farang OR Thai that wants to see this gov't gone. I am only talking about people I know personally of course. By the same token all are wishing that something would be done to end the RED shirt madness, but are hoping for as peaceful an end to things as possible.. but looks less likely the more the RED leaders are ramping up their rhetoric.

I agree. I know one Thai person who supports the socialist wing of the red movement, but hates Thaksin. Everyone else that I know personally, feels that Abhisit has created better stability and growth than any other possible replacement.

He has stated clear goals and tried to move towards them. What clear mandate have the reds proclaimed other than magic money appearing for everyone when the messianic Thaksin returns? How much of their general statements about equalizing the gap between rich and poor would actually be seen? The red leaders are just another set of rich "old boys" who are pissed off that they were moved away from the trough by another set of "old boys". I really don't see how anything could get possibly better or even be as good as now if a red-influenced government came into power.

Has there been any update? The last post on the news update thread was at 6:56. Declare SOA, and then nothing for three hours? Hmmm...

AND AGAIN SO SAY ALL OF US --- SURE DOES SOULD LIKE AT DIED IN THE WOOL YELLOW SUPPORT -- WHICH THE VAST MAJORITY OF FARANG ARE NOT -- SO FOR THE SAKE OF US ALL - KEEP YOUR STUPID GENERAL COMMENTS LIKE THIS TO YOURSELF -- THE REALITY IS IT DEPENDS ON THE COLOUR SHIRT U WEAR - YELLOW IS OK FOR U --- U CAN EVEN WEAR IT IN PARLIMENT - BUT RED NO -

Dude, capslock!

I doubt there are any "yellows" on this board. I will admit that it is dominated by an anti-red sentiment, (which I think has become understandable), but I doubt that there are many who liked what the yellows did, or think that Kasit was a good choice.

I agree with JT as well, this was overdue, but I hope that something that I read earlier comes true. I read that at one point the red leaders said that if the military comes in to remove them, the reds will just sit on the ground so that the military will have to carry them out. I hope this is the case, as it will make the police and army's job much easier, and lower the chances of anyone getting hurt.

The reds have made their point, Abhisit tried to work with them, but they weren't willing to compromise at all. It takes two to tango, but the red leaders, (read Thaksin), weren't willing to dance. They have left the government with no other alternative, and in light of the government's lenience over the past few weeks, I'm sure that they will have general support from most reputable countries. I'm sure that the only ones who would condemn it, are the ones that Thaksin has promised to invest in.

This isn't red or yellow, this is maintaining control and stopping a minority extremist group from inciting chaos. Any doctrine of violence, (red or from the past, yellow), should be dealt with by legal means. Clear this up, prosecute, and charge the leaders from this incident, and the one in 2008. (I know that won't happen, and it's the main failing of the current government. The price to pay for including Kasit was too high IMO)

No, they are thugs.

Wow, you was quick on that one Jing, 64 seconds to get an anti Red message out.

The great majority are not thugs, perhaps you should try talking to some Reds one day?

And risk being beat up or worse? You are daft. Expressing opposition to a red shirt is asking for trouble. Even LOOKING at them the wrong is asking for trouble.

You're becoming hysterical and irrational now. Which is quite amusing really. I love a good forum meltdown.

Actually, he's not far off. I've walked around Phan Fa a few times since this all began, and even before this heated up with the movement downtown, there was a lot of tension in the crowd. I didn't smile, but I didn't scowl either, I kept a neutral look on my face. When the reds saw that I wasn't smiling at them, and openly supporting their movement, I got a lot more dirty looks and scowls. I can only imagine what the mentality is now that mob rule seems to be taking over, and the leaders are having a hard time keeping control.

Reds not caring for other Thais?

Haven't the Yellow shirts already said that people from Esaarn are too stupid and uneducated to be given a vote? Don't they want 70% of government seats to be given to nominees of the professions?

Seems the accusation can be leveled at themselves.

Have talked top many red shirt supporters. Most don't give a toss about Thaksin. They are sick of being second class citizens whereby there is one rule for the elite and another for ordinary people.

Were we talking about the yellow shirts? What they did was stupid and selfish as well, but it's not what we're talking about here. (as well as your assertion that this isn't about Thaksin, if you can't see that it is, as he is the power and money behind it, then you can't see what's truly going on.)

Which hospital this woman wanted to bring her child to is immaterial, why should she be meeting resistance from other Thais on-route to any hospital of her choosing? Do we know when or where her problem with her child arose? Should it matter?

The protestors are obviously not "doing this for the well-being of all Thais", it is merely a putsch to replace one set of elites with another, who happen to be good at manipulating the desperation of the poor. Disgraceful.

I see so many people questioning the leadership ability of Abhisit, while he plays the waiting game with the reds. He has attempted to explain his perceived lack of action as compassion for his countrymen, because as he said, "We are all Thais".

Then I see the reds acting in disgusting ways as in this article:

Mother confronts red shirts for her child

There were a couple of incidents yesterday when the redshirts marched on Silom and Charoenkrung roads, but neither of them turned serious.

At 2.40pm, a female motorist scared many redshirt demonstrators on Silom Road as she tried to break through their march with her pickup.

Many red shirts quickly surrounded her vehicle and battered it.

The driver then tried to explain that she had to rush her daughter to a hospital in the area. With many demonstrators surrounding the pickup, the little girl started crying.

Policemen, who were on guard on Silom Road, intervened and allowed the vehicle to move on safely.

Later, the red shirts marching on Charoenkrung Road had to face a booing crowd. More than 30 people gathered in front of the Bang Rak Market and scolded the demonstrators.

The locals also carried banners condemning the redshirt movement.

Both sides had a heated argument but there were no fights.

-- The Nation 2010-04-07

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They are beginning to show the dark side of their mob mentality, and the leaders are having an increasingly difficult time controlling them. I think it is time for the reds to stop being self absorbed jerks, and return to their peaceful rally at Phan Fa.

The Six Principles of the (UDD) The United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship

1) Achieving the goal of establishing a genuine democracy that has the King as our Head of State, with political power belonging exclusively to the people. We reject any attempt, past or future, at using the monarchy to silence dissent or advance a particular agenda.

2) Dissolving the 2007 Constitution and restoring the 1997 Constitution, which may then be amended through a transparent, consultative and democratic process.

3) Bringing Thais together in an effort to solve our political and socio-economic problems, recognizing that such efforts must stem from the power of the people.

4) Implementing the rule of law, due process and a system of equal justice for all, free of any obstructions or double-standards.

5) Uniting all Thais who love democracy, equality, and equal justice within all facets of society, in an effort to deconstruct and move beyond the Amartyatippatai (Aristocracy) system.

6) Using exclusively non-violent means to achieve these objectives.

A laudable set of points, and ones that I would fully support if that was what this is about. As much as the article by Tulsathit Taptim may be opinion, the fact is there that if this was truly about moving the country forward, the red leaders would have accepted the 9 month compromise. Instead they stuck to an impossible timeframe, which would only make things worse in the back and forth that has been seen since the coup.

I think that an adjusted point #2, and #4 should be the red's focus at this time. Constitutional and judicial reform should be done now, in a transparent way, before the next elections are called. If the goal is truly fairness, justice, and equality, then these reforms would help the whole of Thailand, rather than just on side of the rift.

Sadly, the man who is pulling the strings won't allow that, as it doesn't fit his plans to regain lost capital, and control the military, to cement him, (or one of his cronies), in a permanent place of power in Thailand.

If you can't see the strings, (on both sides), then you are blind. The only way past this is a clear set of internationally accepted rules that BOTH sides have to comply with. Sadly, I don't think either side can make it happen. (Although Abhisit seems to be more sincerely interested in it than Thaksin or most of the red leadership)

*****Edit***

Can we get back to the discussion and ignore these, (or this, I really doubt that these accounts are more than one person), posts from some suspect dormant and new accounts? Spreading yellow propaganda indeed... LOL, I know we aren't supposed to speculate about posters being payed to disseminate propaganda, but methinks they doth protest too much! Those of us who have been on here for a while, and are regular posters, know who, (and usually where), the other regular posters are. It's these new ones that are suspect, and frankly, they are merely disruptive and boring.

CAPO announces the Ratchaprasong Junction a restricted area for rallying

BANGKOK (NNT) -- The Center for the Administration of Peace and Order last night made an announcement, declaring the Ratchaprasong Junction a restricted area for political rallies.

Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd, CAPO Spokesperson said the announcement was necessitated following the breakdown of a negotiation by the CAPO team and core leaders of the demonstrators who insisted to make the Ratchaprasong Junction their temporary base.

The announcement was made in line with the Internal Security Act imposed in Bangkok, Nonthaburi and Samut Prakan at present.

Authorities are entitled to announce restriction for certain persons to enter, or to leave the designated area, or they will be held guilty according to the law, and liable to up to 1-year jailterm or 20,000 THB fine, or both.

Minister to the Prime Minister’s Office Sathit Wongnongtoey explained that with the announcement, those who holed up at the area would be deemed law violators.

CAPO are starting to make demonstrators understand that they are violating the security law, with loud-speaker units sent in at the demonstration area from now on.

-- NNT 2010-04-04

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Okay, so they are making it blatantly obvious to all who are there that they are breaking the law. No one will be able to say that they didn't know. So, if they cordon off the area, cut the power to the red stage, and get military and police going in and recording names and ID numbers, maybe this will start to disperse.

And then there are the poor Farangs/Ex-pats. They are so brainwashed by the Amataya media, they think they have insight. It is like the runner in last place, who thinks he is first.

Complicitory and 47 Rai

Is this what you're talking about Animatic? Quoting themselves, and incoherent?

There seem to be many of them across the threads on TVF this morning, and this worries me. The last time we saw multiple dormant and new accounts that had a smaller number of users behind them, was as the violence was building during Black Songkran. I hope that this resurgence doesn't mean that we are in for a similar situation now...

Breakfast time, sorry, must go.

True colors coming out he? Please think of your blood pressure!

Have a good and above all very long breakfast!

I think the Reds and JW have a point, yet many here chastise them both with mean spirited and thoughtless language. Frankly, I am embarassed for you. Some of the comments against the Reds and JW remind of right wing republicans here in the US.

Welcome back JW, that was a short breakfast! We know that you know that you know how to use a proxy, and how many dormant accounts do you have?

I just saw a report that there are not many people in Ratchaprasong this morning. It sort of makes sense, as there is another aspect here of the reds shooting themselves in the foot.

Many of the reds on the street are paid to be there. I know they came through my soi asking for people to sign up for 500 baht/day last weekend, although nobody here admits to signing up. Once things reach a certain point, such as being arrested and facing a year in prison, the recruits that are paid by the reds will begin to wonder whether all this is really worth 500-1000 baht/day. Suddenly, it all becomes much less of a party and some easy money.

Just curious, bubba, since you have been here a long time, what is this issue about the demonstrators being paid? A lot of others in these forums have ranted about them being paid. Wouldn't you think that if money is their motivation, the PM would be smart enough to just pay them to go home and expose their lack of allegiance?

It would be nice if that were possible, but there are two fundamental problems with that. First, the red leadership would demonize the government for it much more than the government has demonized them for it. Secondly, the reds would state that anyone who accepted is "not Thai" and a "traitor", so that none of the protesters could accept it without a loss of face. The reds have been generally secretive about the handouts, (aside from that one youtube video), so an overt handing out of money would be an insult. You can do anything here, but you have to keep it hidden so that you seem the very paradigm of innocence and purity!

I think that there has been sufficient proof of: the legality of Abhisit being PM, Thaksin being only interested in his own motives, and that the reds are controlled by Thaksin, and his demands. Please use the search function here before bringing these old topics up again and again.

hmmm, you must be in a different Thailand than the rest of us who live in BKK

Honestly, I think he is. His first post, (new account, today), was a statement that he is in Thailand and that the mods can check his IP. Well, I can use a proxy too and make it seem that I'm in Timbuktu or even Dubai!

Then this was his fourth post:

The local English press with their controllers and bias will still try to manipulate things to say its all about him, but its not, he represents a symbol of the unjust way the elite works against people who stand up to it, but he is not the sole cause now, the Reds have moved on and that was signaled by the government having negotiations.

I get the feeling that we're dealing with a serial tourist who thinks that he "knows" Thailand because he has been here a few times, and likes to rile things up from dear old blighty. He's probably using a proxy so that the mods won't ban him again.

It's these types that make TVF boring, as they spout the same incorrect blather again and again, and it falls to the regular TVF members to correct them again and again...

Edited for spelling and grammar.

The Nation analysis "Bangkokians are upset against the stinking people of the country side who are happy" is wrong.

SOME Bangkokians are upset but more and more Bangkokians begin to stink red.

Even in Chatuchak area which is not poor, more and more people wear red in the sois.

An alternative analysis is to tell that now it's: "Bangkok city center" is upset against country side + Bangkok suburbs.

Huh? Do we live in the same city? Are you sure that you didn't just see one of their marches? As I said in my post above, I haven't seen a wholesale move away from the red shirt movement, but the frustration and anger has been growing for the past week or so.

For those below middle class, who have moved here from Issan, I think they are also getting frustrated with the Issan mentality that if you dare move away from Issan to Bangkok, you must be a bad person. Watch some of the Luk Thuung videos that demonize those who dare try to raise themselves above the S.E.S. of their parents. There are many variables at play here, but I think a growing majority of those who live in Bangkok have had enough.

On the other hand, I agree with CWMcMurray, I think the reds are preaching to the choir, and don't care about garnering votes in Bangkok.

Although all of the above comments are technically correct, they just don't apply. Bangkok is a world away for most Thais. the besieged areas represent a small part of bangkok. For the majority of Thais and Bangkok residents life has gone on with no disruption. If people do not feel the pain of such disruptions they will forget the events over time. Human nature at play I believe.

in respect to the negotiations, the reds didn't lose anything, but they did hold their own. They could be seen as negotiating equals to the government. There was no intent by the government to negotiate anything. Instead it was to show the government was listening and it acted to calm the political atmosphere. On that PM Abhisit was successful.

So far the government has handled this right. Better a few more days of patience than the mayhem, violence, death and property destruction that will come with an intervention.

It does apply if you have seen first hand the move from support or disinterest in the beginning of March, to the open derision now that is expressed by Bangkokians from all over the city. This has been viewed as an attack against all of them, because they have made the sin of wanting to live in Bangkok. Even those who are not middle class, and are originally from Issan are complaining about the reds. Of course this isn't 100%, but I've heard more anger and less support from many walks of life in many areas around Bangkok for just over a week now.

You are correct that they will probably forget the anger that they feel now, but I think a feeling of dislike will remain.

What is so sad is that the Reds could have walked away as winners after the talks with the PM. They not only should have gained credibility through these talks but also should have gone back home knowing they got the PM to agree to hold elections a year early as well as dissolving the house. Instead they now look like a bunch of crazed idiots whose leader is leading them to a slaughter.

Had they gone home and moved to intelligent rhetoric, they would be sitting so strong right now in the hearts and minds of the Thai people.

Exactly, but it wasn't what Thaksin wanted. This is why I can't understand how the Thaksin apologists can mimic the red leaders in saying that this isn't about Thaksin. It always has been, and always will be until they forcefully separate themselves from him. Very sad.

All Thai tv stations are now broadcasting a talk by 2 high up army chaps and a third person who I don't recognize. Must be important announcement though since its pre-empting the soaps.

Any update on this? Only during times like these do I regret getting rid of my tv...

****Edit, Thanks Elcent

Whatever it takes, but I do think there should be mass arrests and lawbreakers made to pay. The incentive to be a rent a mob for the puppet master must be stopped.

"cut the head and the legs will follow" if leaders are arrested, people will start to disperse. May be not all but the "normal" ones. Leaving the rest to be "cleaned"

Maybe they could clear a way into the leaders with gas or knockout grenades? I've heard that 3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate or Fentanyl in gas form are both capable of knocking someone out. It's a little dangerous, but it might be a way to arrest the leaders.