rogera

These are pictures of black shirt clothing found in the Pratunam Temple after the army had cleared it out.

and it's about dam_n time! good news!

Time for what?..oust abbhist?..I agree

The only legitimate way to oust Abhisit is through a general election or through the smaller parties withdrawing their support for the Democrats in parliament. Given that Thaksin will be hel_l bent on revenge if he gets back into power, the latter is somewhat unlikely.

Then my friend..the violence will continue unabated, in one way or another...whether you or anyone else believes it or not..those protesters that died are either regarded as heroes or martyrs. If the military killed any member of my family...I wouldn't stop until I reached abbihist..that's a fact.

Then you must be one of those redneck Americans who are usually "off-the-rails". Certainly not the kind of person that can hold an intelligent debate in any company except only in terms of violence.

and it's about dam_n time! good news!

Time for what?..oust abbhist?..I agree

The only legitimate way to oust Abhisit is through a general election or through the smaller parties withdrawing their support for the Democrats in parliament. Given that Thaksin will be hel_l bent on revenge if he gets back into power, the latter is somewhat unlikely.

The only terrorists that deserve prosecution are those in Thailand's mock government and uniforms. There has been no violence other than that which was committed by the state or provoked by criminal actions of the state. The sum total of violence, vandalism and arson committed by Thailands oppressed victims is far less than would be reasonable in light of the atrocities committed against the common people. I will be looking hard and long at all future purchases to ensure that nothing enters my home that is exported by this criminal state.In addition I will express absolute and utter contempt for any tourist that visits Thailand.I will also express very vocal contempt for any fool stupid enough to invest in the Fascist Regime of Thailand.

Your moniker is a complete misnomer. You are no visionary. Where have you been over the last several weeks? Watching PTV in Esan no doubt. What you have written is so far form the truth that it is utter garbage. Get the facts. Read the newspapers (not all of which are objective, by the way, but no matter) watch all the usual TV channels and you will see that black shirts, armed and trained by Khattiya, have shot and maimed, not only innocent civilians, but even their own people in order to create enough casualties to cause the government to fall. This was recorded by a Thai TV station who was filming the action on 10 April when a red shirt screamed to someone behind the cameraman, "Why are you shooting your own people?" The response was "Shut up or you will get it too." This is fact, recorded on film, live!!! So open your eyes and then you may be able to use your moniker.

Dear Thaksin,

There is no pit in hel_l low enough for you. Your role in the suffering of Thailand will be a permanent stain on Thai history. A human travesty.

I guess the red shirt leaders (and their cheerleaders here) are happy with what they have brought.

Apparently all this looting and arson and criminal activity is all justified... according to Red Shirt Giles, the fugitive who writes from the comfort of his home in the UK :

Thailand: The Anger of the People Is Justified

by Giles Ji Ungpakorn

The anger of the ordinary people has finally erupted into violence with numerous buildings being set on fire in Bangkok and the provinces. People are also trying to use any means to fight the army. There are reports that government buildings, banks, the stock exchange, luxury shopping malls, and pro-military media are all being set on fire.

All this is totally justified .

Monthly Review Magazine

May 19, 2010

another westernised Thai asshol_e using the privalege of free speech we offer imigrants that should be banned from Uk

He can't. His mother was English and as such, he is British citizen. That's why he can live freely in the UK and write this nonsense. By the way, he and his twin brother are, along with Weng, committed communists despite the fall of communism. Beats me why they cannot see the failure and bankruptcy of their beliefs. They are well educated people but deluded with their idealism. Seems to be a decidedly British trait.

I have been observing the posts here and there is a disturbing trend.

First, there is disproportion of yellow and red supporters. Is that truly representative or are the red supporters getting banned from the forum?

Second, the reds are generally stating their position with limited emotion in their posts. The yellows are quite vicious and emotionally calling for a massacre. The yellows are saying that the reds are killing and are being destructive. Destructive yes, but killing? One solider killed and if I have my facts correct it was by friendly fire.

Third, I can see why the thais are off the scale emotional about their posts but what excuse do you have as a farang? The thai government doesn't care about you. If you leave, they could care less. Another farang will replace you. The thai people may want you here but only until your money is gone. You may say "I made this my home so I care about thailand". That doesn't change the fact that they don't care about you.

There is a tremendous amount of unreasonable behavior here and I beginning to think that the farangs displaying unreasonable behavior had to come to thailand because they couldn't control themselves in their own country.

I would say that most expats, including myself, have nothing against the majority of red shirts. If you have ever been to the north east and talked to the average person there, they will tell you that they never watch the normal Thai TV channels as they are full of lies. They only watch PTV, Thaksin's TV channel which has, over the last few years totally distorted the truth and they have in fact been brainwashed. I know because I have family in Khon Kaen and they and their friends have told me this.

Most of the expats on this forum only have a hatred for Thaksin and his close cronies for the way he has caused so much damage to the country, not for the sake of the people he claims to be representing, but purely for his own ends. Nuttawut has admitted to receiving 100 million baht from Thaksin to create and maintain the protest and if he got this much money, you can bet that all the others got the same amount too. Additionally, even sources in the Puea Thai Party have admitted that the negotiations with the government could go nowhere because of the conditions laid down by Thaksin for ending the protest were unacceptable to the government. He demanded that he get all his money back, is given a total amnesty for all his past crimes and the return of his passports and property as well as being allowed to stand in the next general election as the leader of the Puea Thai Party. He could not care less that his supporters were dying on his behalf in the streets of Bangkok.

You can bet that Thaksin will pay for the legal costs of the defence of the red shirt leaders and will use every trick in the book to get them off and don't be surprised if he manages to do it, despite all the evidence, videos of speeches etc, that they are guilty of inciting rebellion. Just take a look at U-Tube for the evidence. One particular clip can be seen at:

This is where Arisman is inciting people to bring glass bottles to Bangkok to be filled with petrol so that they can be used as petrol bombs and for setting places alight.

I could go on and give you more examples but the above will give you some idea. Hopefully you will understand that most of us, who have been here for quite some time do not hate the average redshirt but in fact sympathise with their situation. Rather the hatred that many of us feel is directed towards Thaksin personally and his close coterie.

“Loathing, arson, terrorism” etc.! Buzzwords used for centuries by people defending their positions against outsiders. Right or wrong!

I’m personally convinced that this week in Bangkok Thailand will come down in history as something that changed the direction of the Thai politics and history for ever. Like the Boston tea party or the French revolution!

To paraphrase W Churchill: This is not the end! This is not even the beginning of the end! This is the beginning!

A new day is dawning.

I hope it is a positive beginning. The problem is that if the Reds have their way, it might be the beginning of "Year Zero."

In thought and behavior, many (not all) Reds remind me of the Khmer Rouge:

Street executions of innocent people

Worship of an insane, power-hungry dictator

Belief that urban elites are the problem

Desire to destroy everything the urban elites value

Seeing the "press" as a problem (and going after them)

Extreme xenophobia

All of this is way too similar to the thoughts and behaviors of radical elements in the Khmer Rouge.

Tejas,

At last! Someone who has a proper perspective on the situation. I have always said that Thaksin is not a democrat. (Note the small "d"). Rather he is a fascist as was proved when he persecuted the Thai press when he was in power, ordering the wonton murder of nearly 3,000 people under his war on drugs, completely stuffing up the efforts at reconciliation in the south and so fuelling a large increase in insurgent activity. God help Thailand if ever Thaksin comes back into power. You are right, Tejas. There will be public executions as Thaksin wreaks his revenge on those who ousted him as well as on the elite. Thailand will become a banana republic and its people will be plunged into even more poverty as he robs the country left right and centre. I have often said that Thaksin is probably insane and someone who is so rich and insane is a very dangerous man indeed.

I think comparing Abhisit to Lincoln is a bit of a stretch.

The article is classic Pravda propaganda, prepared by the party faithful.

What it doesn't mention is Thailand's fatal flaw - mob rule has replaced the electoral process, which people have completely lost faith in. Neither does the Pravda article mention that Abhisit's lot used this very same method of mob rule to pave the way for the parliamentary deal that got him into power in the first place. Thais support fair play, and while such a system of injustice and hypocrisy prevails there will never be peace. We might also bear in mind that Abhisit's pretext for snatching power was reconciliation, but all we have seen is more chaos. Far from being celebrated as the next Abe Lincoln, Abhisit is just as much focus of hatred as Thaksin is - both of them should withdraw from public life and give the country a chance to repair its broken democracy.

Restoring the public confidence in their right to elect their leaders is really what the Thai authorities should be concentrating on right now. Elections are pointless until the army and judiciary stop meddling with the result.

Wasn't Clockwork Orange about a lunatic asylum? Perhaps you belong there.

It has become very clear that the likes of lemon123 and Dick Farang are neither well informed nor reasonably intelligent. They are not even understanding the posts but up by even the more reasonable posters. As I have said before, they are probably living up in the NE and have been listening and digesting all the claptrap that PTV has been brainwashing the rural poor with. Maybe they can read but comprehension is well beyond their brain power. Just look at all the clips on U-Tube - Nuttawut urging the burning of Bangkok and other places in the country, Arisman urging the people from the north and NE to bring glass bottles so that they can be filled with petrol and used as petrol bombs, Thakin urging his followers to fight to the death - the list goes on and on. These are not the actions of reasonable men. They are the actions of people who have lost some, if not all, of their marbles. Perhaps it would be better if they are found to be suffering from insanity and locked away for the rest of their lives. They are certainly not sane in the even the broadest sense of the word.

I have posted this on another thread but in case some of you haven't seen it, I am posting it here.

The following is an extract from an article from today's Nation Newspaper (I know, I know - not a great fan of Thaksin) The interesting part is where the Puea Thai Party confirm that Thaksin was heavily involved.

Quote

The defiant crowd presented another snag after Thaksin allegedly made demands that could not be met by the government. According to a government source, Thaksin, through his representatives, appeared uninterested in an early end to the red shirts' protests and riots as long as he did not get what he wanted.

"As long as Thaksin does not get what he wants, he won't let this end so easily," said the source. "His latest condition is that he wants not only amnesty in the different cases against him, but also have his passports returned. Those conditions cannot be met by the government."

Violence continued but with decreased intensity in Bangkok, with Bon Kai and Rajprarop remaining the most sensitive areas, where sporadic gunshots and explosions were still heard. The fatality toll since last Friday was 37, excluding Maj-General Khattiya Sawasdipol. Nearly 300 people are injured.

Thaksin's influence in the ongoing secret talks between the government and the red shirts was confirmed by another source from the opposition Pheu Thai Party.

The source, who is close to the ex-premier, said that certain Pheu Thai leaders and Thaksin's close relatives were also involved in the secret talks. In addition to other conditions, such as the date for a new election, Thaksin also made his personal demands.

"Up till now, there have been no positive responses to the demands. These include a return of part of assets from the asset-seizure case and a return of Thaksin's passports," said the Pheu Thai source.

The source also said that Thaksin has a "trump card" in hand that he would use if the talks fail.

"The real strategists [Thaksin's allies from the military] will play an underground game by staging sabotage acts in different areas throughout the city and other major provinces in order to pressure the government to accept Thaksin's conditions," the source said.

Unquote

Also did you see all the denials that Thaksin gave to the international media today? In all the time that Thaksin was in power and all during the time that he has been in exile, not once has he accepted responsibility for his actions. It has always been someone else's fault but never, ever his. The nearly 3,000 deaths in his drug war was never his fault. The several hundred deaths of the Muslims who died in the military trucks was never his fault. The coup against him was never his fault. He must not have heard that the buck stops at the PM's desk.

What an utterly, contemptible, despicable and miserable little sh-t Thaksin is. Wherever he goes and whatever he does, he leaves a very bad smell.

Further to my post above, the full article is at:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...m+-+Politics%29

The following is an extract from an article from today's Nation Newspaper (I know, I know - not a great fan of Thaksin) The interesting part is where the Puea Thai Party confirm that Thaksin was heavily involved.

Quote

The defiant crowd presented another snag after Thaksin allegedly made demands that could not be met by the government. According to a government source, Thaksin, through his representatives, appeared uninterested in an early end to the red shirts' protests and riots as long as he did not get what he wanted.

"As long as Thaksin does not get what he wants, he won't let this end so easily," said the source. "His latest condition is that he wants not only amnesty in the different cases against him, but also have his passports returned. Those conditions cannot be met by the government."

Violence continued but with decreased intensity in Bangkok, with Bon Kai and Rajprarop remaining the most sensitive areas, where sporadic gunshots and explosions were still heard. The fatality toll since last Friday was 37, excluding Maj-General Khattiya Sawasdipol. Nearly 300 people are injured.

Thaksin's influence in the ongoing secret talks between the government and the red shirts was confirmed by another source from the opposition Pheu Thai Party.

The source, who is close to the ex-premier, said that certain Pheu Thai leaders and Thaksin's close relatives were also involved in the secret talks. In addition to other conditions, such as the date for a new election, Thaksin also made his personal demands.

"Up till now, there have been no positive responses to the demands. These include a return of part of assets from the asset-seizure case and a return of Thaksin's passports," said the Pheu Thai source.

The source also said that Thaksin has a "trump card" in hand that he would use if the talks fail.

"The real strategists [Thaksin's allies from the military] will play an underground game by staging sabotage acts in different areas throughout the city and other major provinces in order to pressure the government to accept Thaksin's conditions," the source said.

Unquote

Also did you see all the denials that Thaksin gave to the international media today? In all the time that Thaksin was in power and all during the time that he has been in exile, not once has he accepted responsibility for his actions. It has always been someone else's fault but never, ever his. The nearly 3,000 deaths in his drug war was never his fault. The several hundred deaths of the Muslims who died in the military trucks was never his fault. The coup against him was never his fault. He must not have heard that the buck stops at the PM's desk.

What an utterly, contemptible, despicable and miserable little sh-t Thaksin is. Wherever he goes and whatever he does, he leaves a very bad smell.

Actually it started with Abhisit, who knew very well what would be the outcome of a harsh crackdown, yet insanly and irresponsibly proceeded with it.

Of course, blaming everything on Thaksin is the convinient excuse that relieves one of using the grey matter... as to the real cause of the problem.

There is some relief knowing that one day Abhisit will pay for his crimes behind bars.

I guess you must be a red shirt supporter, probably living somewhere in Esan listening to all the crap regurgitated by PTV. Was the government to do nothing? They gave the red shirts plenty of warnings and enough rope to hang themselves with. Thaksin has a hel_l of a lot to answer for. I hope that the government issue an Interpol arrest warrant on treason charges and bring him back to face a firing squad, but start shooting him in the ankles first and then all the way up to his squarehead. Total meglomaniac and probably insane. Doesn't give a dam_n about anyone else but himself. Absolute prick.

Whats even more worrying is comments like you.The country is in a mess now without stupid farang comments like yours.Maybe in years to come it will be the yellow and red farangs,so you have decided how you will kill the reds.

What a stupid post. You know very well that farangs have no say in what happens in this country so your comments are fatuous at best and idiotic at worst.

Actually it started with Abhisit, who knew very well what would be the outcome of a harsh crackdown, yet insanly and irresponsibly proceeded with it.

Of course, blaming everything on Thaksin is the convinient excuse that relieves one of using the grey matter... as to the real cause of the problem.

There is some relief knowing that one day Abhisit will pay for his crimes behind bars.

I guess you must be a red shirt supporter, probably living somewhere in Esan listening to all the crap regurgitated by PTV. Was the government to do nothing? They gave the red shirts plenty of warnings and enough rope to hang themselves with. Thaksin has a hel_l of a lot to answer for. I hope that the government issue an Interpol arrest warrant on treason charges and bring him back to face a firing squad, but start shooting him in the ankles first and then all the way up to his squarehead. Total meglomaniac and probably insane. Doesn't give a dam_n about anyone else but himself. Absolute prick.

Quote:

"This information comes from a completely reliable sourse, a source that I trust implicitly".

I don't know about you; but everytime I made something up, I use exactly the same statement.

Unquote.

Then you must be an unmitigated liar.

I only use this statement when I believe it to be true.

To Guyshown

Quote/OK -- too wait for any length of time to afford the people the right vote and elect a government of the peoples choice not a Government that was put in place by the actions of a Coup is obserd! It is obvious that the current Goverment is worried that it will not be elected by the people. Question were they ever elected by the people? Again this as much as everyone keeps trying to make it is not about Thaksin this is about the process of the current government...

[/unquote]

You miss the whole point and either do not understand the parliamentary system or come from a presidential form of government. Here are the facts:

It is an established parliamentary procedure in most parliamentary systems of government where a party in power and holding the majority of MPs votes loses that parliamentary majority, there are two options;

1. Hold a new election

2. Try to reform the government by putting together a coalition of MPs whose votes become the majority.

This is laid down in the Thai constitution and it follows broadly the system employed in other parliamentary systems of government.

The MPs obviously decided that an election would not solve the political problem and so opted for choice no. 2.

Abhisit was elected PM by virtue of the fact that he managed to cobble together a coalition of elected MPs that voted him into the position. This is no different to the way Somchai Wongsawat was elected when Samak Sundaravej was dismissed as PM by court order. As the parliament opted for choice #2, there is no way in hel_l that Abhisit lacks legitimacy. He was able to gather the majority of votes of MPs to form a democrat-led government in accordance with normal parliamentary procedure. The fact that Thaksin was ousted by a coup in no way negates the fact that parliamentary protocol was followed in accordance with the law and the constitution.

It might help to clarify your thoughts if you understand how the system works.

QUOTE (JohnLeech @ 2010-04-11 00:46:04)

QUOTE (rogera @ 2010-04-10 22:15:41)

Finally, Anand Panyarachan set the standard of political behavior when he was PM twice in the 1990's. Abhisit has followed this standard, despite having unsavoury characters in his cabinet .....

In what possible way?

By being transparent in the way he is dealing with the redshirts problem

Apart from a similar education in England they have nothing in common whatsoever.

I do not agree. They come from very similar backgrounds, have had similar upbringings and have expressed similar views which indicates to me that they also have similar values.

Anand was a career diplomat and Ambassador before becoming a successful and respected businessman and being asked to form a government.

Abhisit has only ever been a politician and an MP, with no other experience in any area locally or internationally.

Given that Abhisit is many years younger than Anand, it is not surprising that he has not had the experience that Anand has had. Nor has had the freedom that Anand had, to choose members of his cabinet. Politics is the art of the possible and it inevitably involves some horse-trading.

Anand hand-picked his cabinet, despite presure from the military who had put him in office, to make it one of the most respected and capable Thailand has ever had.

Abhisit's cabinet is "unsavoury" at best, with input from Newin Chidchob controlling the swing vote despite being banned from politics and a foreign minister who advocated and led the yellow-shirted seizure of Suvarnhabumi airport and who is still the subject of an un-enforced arrest warrant.

Anand was very fortunate to have had the military over a barrel in which they had no choice but to accept meekly anything that he proposed. Abhisit has no such luxury.

With regard to Kaset, he did not lead the yellow shirts. He only appeared on stage at Suvarnaphumi to show his support for their ousting of Thaksin. You may not be aware that Kaset was the Thai ambassador to Washington when Thaksin was PM. Thaksin instructed him to buy a building in New York at a highly inflated price in which he wanted to house all the Thai government agencies, something that none of the agencies wanted. The highly inflated price for the building was far in excess of what the valuers hired by Kaset valued it. As a result, Kaset absolutely refused to do so since it was quite clear that the difference in value was going into Thaksin's pocket. The upshot was that Kaset was sacked but the purchase died an early death. This information comes from a completely reliable sourse, a source that I trust implicitly.

Kaset is well known as a very straightforward person with great integrity, something that many Thais lack, and it is this integrity and experience in international diplomacy which made him ideally suited to be Foreign Minister. Anand has similar integrity as I also believe that Abhisit has it too. You may disagree but that is your right so we will agree to disagree.

Anand introduced many reforms, including re-structuring the tax system, introducing VAT, and opening investment regulations locally and overseas.

Abhisit has done nothing wrong by doing nothing at all. His only successful policies, economically, in education, and in improving medical cover, are simply continuations of the opposition's existing policies, and the policy his government is most remembered for is labelling a dozen of Thailand's more popular herbs and spices as dangerous goods.

Anand had a compliant parliament in which to implement all these changes, Abhisit does not. However, you do agree that Abhisit has introduced reforms to the education system, enforced the environmental laws in Rayong and the north, has insisted in transparency in government dealings, witness the bus purchase scheme which the Transport ministry tried to push through, changed the purchasing procedures of the Government Pharmaceutical Organisation to make it more transparent, these among other things. He has concentrated on improving the internal workings of the government while Anand concentrated on improving the system to make it easier for foreign investment to take place. Two very different approaches.

Anand concentrated on improving relations with Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia and successfully established AFTA.

Abhisit has achieved nothing in the field of improving relations with any of Thailand's neighbours.

You are being very unfair here. Abhisit's efforts to improve relations with Cambodia in particular were shafted by the actions of Thaksin and Hun Sen. The chaos at the ASEAN Summit in Pattaya last year was, again shafted by Thaksin and his cronies. The fact that nothing has improved in this area is entirely due to the action of Thaksin and his thugs.

Anand's personal honesty and that of his government was never challenged in any way at the time or later.

Abhisit's government has had numerous accusations of corruption made against it, particularly concerning the more vulnerable such as subsistence farmers (sub-standard fertiliser) and school-children (tainted school milk). His own declared finances are questionable, as his declared assets and his salary are insufficient to cover even his sons' education at Eton and Winchester.

Again, you are being very unfair. Anand had no political opposition because he was asked by the King personally to lead the government. Noone dared to question his integrity. All the allegations about Abhisit's personal honesty have been raised by the red shirt leaders. One particular allegation about the sudden increase in wealth of 22 million baht which was proved a lie was the one where he inherited a house from his deceased grandmother. His own cousin, a member of Thaksin's government, verified this fact. All the other allegations are being contested in court and only time will tell if they are true or not. Politics, as you well know, is a dirty business and such allegations are levelled at politicians all the time.

After leaving the political stage Anand went on to be an ambassador for UNICEF and senior advisor to Kofi Annan and he remained popular and respected by all levels of Thai society. Somehow I cannot see Abhisit following his standards later any more than he does now - unfortunately he is all form but no substance and he is incapable of uniting the country.

Come on. Get real. Abhisit is only 44 years old and is still in politics. Anand became ambassador to UNICEF when he was well into his late sixties and after he left government. Your information here is simply gratuitous.

I am not an apologist for Abhisit or his government. I have been coming to Thailand since early 1971 and have lived and worked in Thailand for over 25 years. I have seen the sorry procession of corrupt and venal governments, the Anand administration excepted, not one, except Thaksin, has offered the rural poor any relief from their poverty. Thaksin did go a little way to help while at the same time plundering the Thai treasury to triple his wealth during the five years he was in power.

Thaksin had the opportunity to go down in Thai history as the best PM that the country ever had but he blew it through greed, arrogance and corruption. He is not, and never was, a democrat. He is an autocrat, a dictator and Thailand will have a very sad future if ever he comes back into power again. My prayer for the Thai people is that this never, ever, happens.

It might be useful if you compare apple to apples rather than apples to oranges.

Let's make it easy, just answer yes or no to these question:

These are good relevant questions, but sorry I refuse to answer YES or NO, I suggest each of these questions needs a structured answer, here's my input:

- Do you think it would be a good thing if Thaksin came back into power?

No, I cannot see that thaksin has any future whatever in Thai policics, in fact I believe his return would mean a return to the Thai politics of the last several decades, and would re-empower the types of politicians which Thailand desperately and urgently needs to totally reject (I call them insincere leeches, thieves and thugs). Another salient point is that PM Abhisit and K. Korn are setting a new mould of the 'type' of people who are starting to join, people who are capable (and I don't mean that they should have a bachelor degree etc., - the world is full of highly clever and highly competent people who don't have advanced education) and sincere and honest.

Additionally, would you trust Thaksin? I centainly wouldn't. In his 'era' he had no hesitation to openly raid the wealth of Thailand on numerous occasions, to abuse power, including maasive an open nepotism to get many of his relatibves into numerous powerful positions. No hesitation to change the laws of Thailand for his personal benefit, and no hesitation to order/supervise the on sight muder of 2,500 fellow Thais without any recourse to justice. And had no hesitation to manipulate the poor for his own tricky benefit and no hesitation to deliberately give them false hope as part of his unscrupulous tricks. A man with absolutely no morals.

- Do you think Thaksin is the best option amongst the current politicians?

!. Refer to my answer above.

2. The best option is without any doubt Khun Abhisit accompanied by Khun Korn.

- Do you think that the top leaders in the Red Shirts are pro-democracy and will be anti-Thaksin if he comes into power and does not live up to the ideal?

There are no really sincere people in the red shirt leaders group, they are a bunch of thugs trying to create a smokescreen (and not a very good one) over their real purpose; a pardon for thaksin, and a return to a very wanting constitution which makes vote buying easy. They claim to be the champions of democracy but they want to play games with and totally disrespect justice.

In terms of being real democracy fighters, this is a total joke, none of them has ever given a speech, or a presentation which talks in depth about the benefits of democracy, the pillars of demorcay etc etc. And they ave no hesitation to stand up on stage and tell blatant lies. They have had numerous opportunities to make such presentation to large rallies, they din't talk about democracy at all, they just spewed out hatred without substantive logic or reasonsing. In fact they don't have any logic to support their hatred speeches). They set up 495 'democracy schools' in Essan etc., and there is now evidence that there were no lessons whatever of the structure, the building, the maintaining of quality democracy, just more hatred speeches.

In terms of the red shirt leaders being anti-thaksin, well interesting point. If thaksin ignored them (if he ever gained power) then I suspect they would turn against him very strongly and very quickly, they want a return on their sizeable investment.

But would that mean they would become a stand alone powerful and credible group or movement? NO. they have set their own mould, nothing more than bought rallies (which one could assume would dry up as soon as teh slush funds dry up, and their own ability to create other sizeable slush funds is very doubtful, and they have no credible and specific manifesto, and they have developed a reputation for changing their purpose numerous times.

[/unquote]

What a wonderful response to the questions asked. My sentiments exactly. Thaksin's return would be an absolute and unmitigated disaster for Thailand. Having said that, I feel that the red shirts, or the remnants of it, without Thaksin and his money and baggage, do have some future in the Thai political process and the sooner that the current political elite come to terms with that reality the sooner we will have a normal political situation. The leaders of the red shirts have tasted political power and they will not easily give it up unless they are included in the political process. Part of that process should be the recognition that Thaksin can never return to power and that the process has to move forward without him. The important part is to exclude the extremist fringe like Weng (an out-and-out Communist), Khittiya, (a thug), Panlop (an opportunist if ever there was one) and those lesser lights who have advocated anarchy. Unfortunately, they will still have to deal with Veera, Jatuporn and Nuttawut despite the fact that they are deeply obligated to Thaksin. These three will just have to learn that Thaksin's time is long gone and join in the reconciliation process for the betterment of Thai society as a whole. My fervent hope that this will occur soon after the current unrest is over. My belief is that it is not without possibility that either Jatuporn or Nuttawut will emerge at some time in the future a Prime Minister who will lead the country on to greater things, provided of course they have learned the lessons of the current situation and have ditched the baggage that they inherited from their obligation to Thaksin. Both are very talented speakers and are highly intelligent people who have been mesmerised by Thakin's money and projection of personal power. Hopefully they will move beyond personal aggrandisement, mature as responsible politicians and realise that Thailand's future is bound, not only to the region, but to the world as a whole and can and will fulfill it's obligations to the world overall.

After the current situation is over, the government should engage again with Veera, Jatuporn and Nuttawut, making it clear that Thaksin's future is long gone, to try to bridge the gap between them and to offer them some kind of concession that will help them to save some face so that they are not seen as having totally surrendered their cause. Dissolution of parliament should not be part of any concession. Part of the concession could be the dropping of criminal charges against them. Any failure by these three to accept these conditions should mean that the full force of the law will be applied against them. If the government can do this successfully, then I can see them completing their term and having the next election in late 2011. What wonders this will do for Thailand, the economy, the tourism industry, the foreign investment climate and so on. If all this can be achieved, then Thailand will resume its rightful place as one of the leading countries in SE Asia and in the Far East as a whole.

Finally, Anand Panyarachan set the standard of political behavior when he was PM twice in the 1990's. Abhisit has followed this standard, despite having unsavoury characters in his cabinet and has achieved a recognition in the international arena for his integrity, ability and intelligence that no Prime Minister has achieved since Anand's era. His time is just coming when he will develop into a person of stature and enter Thai history as a PM who saved Thailand from disaster. Thailand needs people like him, Korn, Jurin and the other young bloods in the Democratic party to carry Thailand into the future with confidence and aplomb.

Actually the decision was made by the head oif the thaicom station, i saw him on tv yesterday, he said he had do decide between getting caught by suthep or beaten up by protesters, and he chose to get caught. He said he would willingly turn it off again if the army could protect all his employees and and his sattelites throughout the country.

I think half the reds are for democracy and the other half just wants a better life thaksin or no thaksin. But by now i truely believe that abhisit is not an educated man who knows the true meaning of democracy-a gov't from the people, by the people, and for the people.

Your last statement just shows who is not educated and, in using phrases from the US constitution, you are obviously an American. It is very clear that the only objectives of the red shirt leaders is the return of Thaksin, the restoration of his money and a quashing of his conviction for abuse of power. Veera has already admitted that he has received very substantial sums of money from Thaksin and he cannot now reject him. This is a typical case of Thai "grengjai" and it also applies to all of the red leaders. It is also highly likely that the reported inflow of some 10 billion baht into Thailand a few weeks ago is being used to finance the current unrest and one can speculate that at least some of this money has found its way into the pockets of the red leadership.

Another point, a friend of mine is very close to a guy from her student days who is well known as a speaker and singer. This guy went on the stage at Rajprasong and spoke and sang some songs in praise of Thaksin. This guy told my friend that he was approached by Jatuporn to do this and if he did, he would receive 1 million baht. The day after appearing, he updated his bank book and the 1 million baht was in his account. He told my friend that he did not believe in Thaksin but the money was too good to turn down. This, I would suggest, is just an example of how the campaign is being financed.

The PSTV station is the only news channel that the typical red shirt watches as they have been brainwashed into believing that all other news channels distort the news against them. I have this directly from a Thaksin loyalist who once held a very high position in the police force. He and his wife only watch PSTV despite being well educated. They did very well when Thaksin was in power and long for the day he will return. I sincerely hope that he will be disappointed and told him so.

If these protests had been held in Europe or Australia, or the US for that matter, heads would have been broken a long time ago and the protest dispersed within a matter of hours. While you may not agree, these are countries where democracy has been in situ for many, many years. I would suspect that it is you who do not understand the word "democracy".

There was an excellent cartoon in the Bangkok Post about 10 days ago that showed a big bully, identified as a red shirt, standing over a couple of pink shirts. The caption read: "I'm the only one who is allowed to protest". That sums up the whole situation

Abhisit's patience has been beyond reproach. He has given the red shirts enough rope to hang themselves and the protesters will get the treatment that they should have received from the beginning.

Finally, while I believe that the majority of the rural poor do have real grievances against all past Thai governments, they really only have themselves to blame in that they have elected corrupt and venal politicians who gave them some money for their vote. Thaksin gave then peanuts from the Thai treasury while robbing the country blind during the five years he was in power. It is no accident that his wealth tripled during those five years.

Suggest that you try routing Bangkok to Sydney and then to Darwin on Qantas. This will be pretty expensive so you could also try BKK/Brisbane/Darwin/Dili.

Check out the following websites:

http://www.edreams.com/edreams/shared/amad...port_body.jhtml which gives the following itinerary:

€ 788.50 Price breakdown Price per person R/T (Taxes included)*1 Passenger

OUTBOUND Saturday 9 January 2010

Bangkok (Bangkok ... 12:45 Darwin (Darwin) Australia 04:05

(+ 1 day) Qantas Airways Ltd Economy 1 Stopover

INBOUNDSaturday 16 January 2010

Darwin (Darwin) 00:45 Bangkok (Bangkok ... Thailand 22:45 Qantas Airways Ltd Economy 1 Stopover

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OUTBOUND Saturday 9 January 2010

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INBOUNDSaturday 16 January 2010

Darwin (Darwin) 16:10 Bangkok (Bangkok ... Thailand 09:30

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Darwin (Darwin) 18:20 Bangkok (Bangkok ... Thailand 09:30

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OUTBOUND Saturday 9 January 2010

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INBOUNDSaturday 16 January 2010

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OUTBOUND Saturday 9 January 2010

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(+ 1 day) Qantas Airways Ltd Economy 1 Stopover

INBOUNDSaturday 16 January 2010

Darwin (Darwin) 16:10 Bangkok (Bangkok ... Thailand 09:30

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OUTBOUND Saturday 9 January 2010

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INBOUNDSaturday 16 January 2010

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OUTBOUND Saturday 9 January 2010

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INBOUNDSaturday 16 January 2010

Darwin (Darwin) 16:10 Bangkok (Bangkok ... Thailand 09:30

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OUTBOUND Saturday 9 January 2010

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INBOUNDSaturday 16 January 2010

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OUTBOUND Saturday 9 January 2010

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Hope this helps.

Roger

I think that you will find that, under the Asean visa rules, your Vietnamese GF does NOT need a visa. My Thai wife and I went to Hanoi a few weeks ago and she did not need a visa while I did. In my wife's case her entry stamp was valid for three months. Mine was for one week.

Building B,

Bangkok Government Center,

Chaengwattana Road (close to the Department of Consular Affairs, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Chaengwattana Road.)

BANGKOK

but what do I tell the taxi driver?? !!!! as far as I remember, chang wattana is a VERY VERY long road!!! what is the address??!!!!

surely there is more to the address than above? coz not every taxi driver is going to know where the bangkokm giovernment centre is!! (let alone understand it in english!)

If driving, head north along the Vibhavawadi Road elevated expressway to Don Muang and come off at the second Chaeng Wattana exit (there are two, the first one I thinks says "Pakret" which goes down to the lower level underneath the expressway making it hard to turn left across the railway line into Chaeng Wattana). The second exit takes you straight on to Chaeng Wattana Road. The first large building on the left is I think the Defence Ministry, then look for Telephone Organisation of Thailand HQ, also on the left followed by the CAT HQ. Slow down here as The Foreign Ministry, again on the left, is very close and is well marked. The new Immigration office is in the same compound as the Foreign Ministry. Park in the extended carpark where the guards will be happy to direct you to the right place.

hope this helps.

Roger

(Quote)

When will you people realise Taksin has the majority support in the country, Why was the yellow shirts not arrested for crimes against the state over the airport siege, and government building siege, its all about money and power and corruption. Reds want democracy, Why not have a total amnesty and new elections, and all abide by the results,,, happy Songkran,,, mine was full of alcohol

I think that you are quite mistaken on this assertion. At the last election in which the Democrats participated (with Abhisit as leader), there was only a difference 100,000 or so in the total votes nationwide between the PPP and the Democrats in all the constituencies in which they competed directly against each other. This compares to Thaksin's majority of 16 million votes(compared to the nine or so million for the Democrats and when Banyat was the leader of the Democrats) that he got when he first got elected, the difference overall in the total vote in 2005 was a mere 1.5 million. Thaksin's share of the total vote dropped to some 13 million, while the Democrats share rose to around 11.5 million. Admittedly the total vote dropped as a lot of people failed to vote.

Given the chaos and violence of the redshirts over the last few days, many Thais have swung to the Democrats side, particularly following the successful conclusion of the rebellion. Thais are fed up with the current squabbles. They want peace and quiet so that they can get on with their lives as best they can. Newin also controls a large portion of the NE and he will deliver these votes to his new Bhumijai party and, with the Democrats, will then probably form the next government.

Soon or later, the truth will opened up for the whole world. This government is lying, tons of eyes withnesses, people got killed with the real bullets.

This killer will be the one who get the warrant. This government is a professional lies and making up stories from good guy turn to a bad guy..

Tons of evidences on the internet showing.... how long can still be lying??? At least they know what they done.. GOD is watching!!!!

I think you are like Thaksin, quite a few satang short of the baht - in other words, insane. Thaksin's lust for revenge and power has made him quite unbalanced and he is now just a meglomaniac with lots of money. There is an old saying in English as follows: "There are none so blind as those who will not see". This seems to fit the bill as far as you are concerned.

Apisit should be executed with the military who killed people.

There are no reason at all to use real gun, real tanks and real bullets shot over to innocent people and children. Where is the human rights and have all medias lying to make them look good and made some bad stories to Red shirts which they are tons of people.

Is this a communists country, Reds have no right to protest the government and all Reds's sources of medias, they are to shut down.

They put the dead bodies into the truck and destroyed the evidences!! professional killers!!!!

Why don't do this to the South of Thailand.... may be no ability to overcome that!!!

Oh. I have just noticed that your avatar is wearing an Italian fascist jacket. That explains everything !!!!