rogera

Hi all,

I am trying to compile a library of U-Tube videos of all the redshirt and Thaksin speeches mae during the unrest over the last seven weeks. Can anyone link me to these sites?

many thanks

The following is an open letter to CNN which has been written to several newspapers and to CNN, the BBC et al which I think sums up the feelings that, red shirt sympathisers here excepted, many of us feel about the reporting of a so-called professional journalists, Dan Rivers and Sarah Snider. The letter speaks for itself and to help those Thai readers, each paragraph has been translated into Thai by the author. The letter speaks for itself:

Quote

นภัส ณ ป้อมเพ็ชร์ 



เพราะจดหมายของ นภัส ณ ป้อมเพ็ชร์ ที่ส่งถึงช่องข่าว CNN ได้รับการกล่าวขานไม่แพ้วาทกรรมของ คุณอ๊อฟ - พงษ์พัฒน์ วชิรบรรจง ทำให้ชื่อของ นภัส ณ ป้อมเพ็ชร์ สาวไทยใจกล้า เป็นอีกหนึ่งคนที่ใคร ๆ ก็อยากรู้จักเธอมากที่สุดในตอนนี้

Dear Sirs/Madams, 



Recently, CNN Thailand Correspondents Dan Rivers and Sarah Snider have made me seriously reconsider your agency as a source for reliable and accurate unbiased news. As of this writing, over thousands of CNN’s viewers have already begun to question the accuracy and dependability of its reporting as regards events in Afghanistan, Haiti, Iraq, Iran, etc., in addition to Bangkok.

เร็ว ๆ นี้ ผู้สื่อข่าว CNN ประจำประเทศไทย ทั้ง แดน ริเวอร์ และ ซาร่าห์ ซไนเดอร์ ทำให้ดิฉันต้องกลับมาพิจารณาอย่างจริงจังว่าข่าวของสำนักข่าวของคุณเป็นแหล่งข่าวที่เชื่อถือได้ มีความถูกต้อง และไม่เอนเอียงไปข้างใดข้างหนึ่งหรือไม่ ในขณะที่ดิฉันกำลังเขียนจดหมายฉบับนี้ มีผู้เสพข่าวของ CNN กำลังตั้งคำถามถึงความแม่นยำและแหล่งข่าวในการนำเสนอเหตุการณ์ที่เกิดขึ้นใน อาฟกานิสสถาน ไฮติ อิรัก อิหร่าน เป็นต้น .. เพิ่มเติมจากการเสนอข่าวในกรุงเทพมห

As a first-rate global news agency, CNN has an inherent professional duty to deliver all sides of the truth to the global public who have faithfully and sincerely placed their trust and reliance in you. Your news network, by its longtime transnational presence and extensive reach, has been put in a position of trust and care; CNN’s journalists, reporters, and researchers have a collective responsibility to follow the journalist's code and ethics to deliver and present facts from all facets of the story, not merely one-sided, shallow and sensational half-truths. The magnitude of harm or potential extent of damage that erroneous and fallacious news reporting can cause to (and exacerbate), not only a country’s internal state of affairs, economic well-being, and general international perception, but also the real lives and livelihood of the innocent and voiceless people of that nation, is enormous. CNN should not negligently discard its duty of care to the international populace by reporting single-sided or unverified facts and distorted truths drawn from superficial research, or display/distribute biased images which capture only one side of the actual event. 



ในฐานะที่เป็นสำนักข่าวชั้นนำของโลก CNN มีหน้าที่ในการเสนอข่าวอย่างรอบด้าน บนพื้นฐานของความจริงต่อประชาชนทั่วโลกที่ให้ความไว้วางใจอย่างสุจริตต่อการเสนอข่าวของสำนักข่าวของท่าน เครือข่ายข่าวนานาชาติของท่านยังดำรงอยู่และเข้าถึงอย่างกว้างขวางโดยพื้นฐานของการนำเสนออย่างระมัดระวังและไว้ใจได้มาอย่างยาวนาน ; นักข่าว ผู้สื่อข่าว และผู้ที่ทำการวิจัยข้อมูลของ CNN ต้องมีความรับผิดชอบในการปฏิบัติตนตามมาตรฐานการปฏิบัติและจริยธรรมของผู้สื่อข่าว ในอันที่จะนำเสนอเรื่องราวและข้อเท็จจริงรอบด้าน ไม่ใช่การนำเสนอข่าวด้านเดียว ที่ตื้นเขิน และความจริงเพียงครึ่งเดียว ความเสียหายและโอกาสที่จะเกิดความเสียหายที่ร้ายแรงจากความเข้าใจผิดหรือการรับรู้ที่ไม่ถูกต้องอาจจะเกิดขึ้นได้ (และถูกทำให้แย่ลง) ไม่เพียงแค่ในส่วนที่เกี่ยวกับกิจการภายในของประเทศ ภาวะเศรษฐกิจ และภาพลักษณ์ต่อประชาคมโลกเท่านั้น แต่ยังรวมถึงชีวิตความเป็นอยู่จริงๆของผู้คนที่ไม่รู้อิโหน่อิเหน่และไม่มีปากเสียงของประเทศนั้น ๆ ด้วย นี่เป็นเรื่องที่ใหญ่โต CNN ไม่ควรจะเพิกเฉยและละเลยหน้าทีที่ต้องใช้ความระมัดระวังในในการนำเสนอข่าวเพียงด้านเดียวในประชาคมโลก หรือการที่ไม่ตรวจสอบยืนยันความถูกต้องของข่าว และแม้แต่การบิดเบือนข้อเท็จจริงที่นำมาจากการการวิจัยอย่างคร่าว ๆ ผิวๆ เผิน ๆ หรือการนำเสนอ / แจกจ่ายรูปภาพที่เอนเอียงไปด้านใดด้านหนึ่งของความจริงทั้งหมดในภาพรวม 



Mr. Rivers and Ms. Snider have NOT done their best under these life-threatening circumstances because many other foreign correspondents have done better. All of Mr. Rivers and Ms. Sniders' quotes and statements seem to have been solely taken from the anti-government protest leaders or their followers/sympathizers. Yet, all details about the government’s position have come from secondary resources. No direct interviews with government officials have been shown; no interviews or witness statements from ordinary Bangkok residents or civilians unaffiliated with the protesters, particularly those who have been harassed by or suffered at the hands of the protesters, have been circulated. 



คุณริเวอร์ และคุณซไนเดอร์ ไม่ได้ทำหน้าที่อย่างดีที่สุดภายใต้ภาวะที่อาจจะเกิดการคุกคามชีวิต เพราะผู้สื่อข่าวของสำนักข่าวอื่น ๆ ทำหน้าที่ได้ดีกว่านี้ ทุกสิ่งที่คุณริเวอร์ และคุณซไนเดอร์กล่าวถึงและเขียนถึง ล้วนแต่เป็นเรื่องที่นำมาจากแกนนำของกลุ่มผู้ประท้วงต่อต้าน หรือผู้ชุมนุมที่ฟูมฟายเรียกร้องความเห็นอกเห็นใจ ดังนั้น รายละเอียดทั้งหมดที่เกี่ยวกับทางฝ่ายรัฐบาลล้วนได้มาจากแหล่งข่าวรอง ๆ ทั้งสิ้น ยังไม่ปรากฏว่ามีการเข้าไปสัมภาษณ์เจ้าหน้าที่ฝ่ายรัฐโดยตรง หรือการเข้าไปรับทราบการรายงานจากประชาชนที่อาศัยอยู่ในเขตกรุงเทพมหานคร และผู้ที่ไม่เกี่ยวข้องการการชุมนุมประท้วง โดยเฉพาะอย่างยิ่งผู้ซึ่งถูกคุกคามและต้องทนทุกข์จากการกระทำของกลุ่มผู้ประท้วง แล้วนำมารายงานข่าว 



Why the discrepancy in source of information? Why the failure to report all of the government’s previous numerous attempts to negotiate or invitations for protesters to go home? Why no broadcasts shown of the myriad ways the red protesters have terrorized and harmed innocent civilians by burning their shops, enclosing burning tyres around apartment buildings, shooting glass marbles at civilians from high altitudes, attacking civilians in their cars, and worst of all, obstructing paramedics and ambulances carrying civilians injured by M79 grenade blasts during the Silom incident of April 24, 2010, thereby resulting in the sole civilian casualty? The entire timeline of events that have forced the government to take this difficult stance has been hugely and callously ignored in deference to the red ‘underdogs’. 


ทำไมจึงมีความแตกต่างในการนำเสนอข่าว (สองมาตรฐาน – ผู้แปล) ทำไมจึงไม่มีการรายงานข่าวความพยายามหลาย ๆ ครั้งของทางฝ่ายรัฐบาลที่จะเจรจาหรือเชิญผู้ชุมชุมให้กลับบ้าน ทำไมจึงไม่มีการรายงานวิธีการมากมายหลายอย่างที่เลวร้ายน่ากลัวที่กลุ่มผู้ประท้วงได้กระทำและเป็นอันตรายต่อประชาชนผู้บริสุทธิ์ ด้วยการเผาทำลายร้านค้า การเผายางรถยนต์รอบๆตึกอพาร์ทเมนท์ ยิงลูกแก้วเข้าสู่ประชาชนจากที่สูง ทำร้ายประชาชนในรถยนต์ และที่เลวร้ายที่สุดก็คือกีดขวางเจ้าหน้าที่ทางการแพทย์และรถพยาบาลที่กำลังลำเลียงผู้ได้รับบาดเจ็บจากกรณีการยิงระเบิด เอ็ม 79 ในพื้นที่การปะทะที่ถนนสีลม เมื่อวันที่ 24 เมษายน 2010 ซึ่งทำให้เกิดการสูญเสียชีวิตของประชาชน เหตุการณ์ที่เกิดขึ้นเป็นลำดับได้บีบบังคับให้ทางฝ่ายรัฐบาลต้องอยู่ในฐานะที่ยากลำบากที่จะต้องเมินต่อกลุ่มคนเสื้อแดง 



Mr. Rivers and Ms. Snider’s choice of sensational vocabulary and terminology in every newscast or news report, and choice of images to broadcast, has resulted in law-abiding soldiers and the heavily-pressured Thai government being painted in a negative, harsh, and oppressive light, whereas the genuinely violent and law-breaking arm of the anti-government protesters - who are directly responsible for overt acts of aggression not only against armed soldiers but also against helpless, unarmed civilians and law-abiding apolitical residents of this once blooming metropolis (and whose actions under American law would by now be classified as terrorist activities) – are portrayed as righteous freedom fighters deserving of worldwide sympathy and support. This has mislead the various international Human Rights watchdogs to believe the Thai government are sending trigger-happy soldiers out to ruthlessly murder unarmed civilians without just cause. 



สิ่งที่คุณริเวอร์และคุณซไนเดอร์เลือกใช้ ไม่ว่าจะเป็นภาษา คำศัพท์ หรือภาพที่กินใจในการนำเสนอข่าว ล้วนเป็นเรื่องของทหารที่ปฏิบัติตนตามกฎหมายและอยู่ภายใต้ภาวะกดดันอย่างสูง ฝ่ายรัฐบาลได้รับการป้ายสี วาดภาพในด้านลบ หยาบกระด้าง และปกครองอย่างกดขี่ ในขณะที่พวกที่มีความรุนแรงที่แท้จริงและละเมิดกฎหมายของกลุ่มคนที่ประท้วงรัฐบาล ผู้ซึ่งจะต้องรับผิดชอบอย่างแท้จริงต่อการกระทำที่เกินเลยและก้าวร้าว ไม่เพียงกระทำต่อทหารที่มีอาวุธเท่านั้น แต่ยังรวมถึงประชาชนที่สิ้นหวัง ปราศจากอาวุธ ผู้ที่ปฏิบัติตนภายใต้กฎหมาย และประชาชนที่อาศัยอยู่ในเขตที่ครั้งหนึ่งเป็นเขตที่รุ่งเรืองของมหานครแห่งนี้ (ซึ่งการปฏิบัติตนเช่นที่กล่าวมานี้ หากเป็นกฎหมายของอเมริกา จะถูกจัดเป็นกลุ่มผู้ก่อการร้ายทันที) – แต่คนกลุ่มนั้นกลับปฏิบัติตนเสมือนว่ามีอิสระที่จะต่อสู่ และได้รับความเห็นใจและการสนับสนุนจากประชาคมโลก นี่เป็นการทำให้เกิดความเข้าใจที่ผิด ๆ ในกลุ่มพิทักษ์สิทธิมนุษยชนระหว่างประเทศ ซึ่งเข้าใจว่ารัฐบาลไทยกำลังส่งทหารที่มีอาวุธเข้าไปเข่นฆ่าประชาชนโดยไม่มีเหตุอันควร 


As a current resident of "war zone" Bangkok who has experienced the effect of the Red protests first hand and is living in a state of constant terror and anxiety as to whether her family, friends, and home would get bombed or attacked by the hardcore anti-government vigilantes/paramilitary forces - I appeal to CNN's professional integrity to critically investigate and scrutinize the misinformed news reporting of your above-named correspondents. If they are incapable of obtaining genuine, authentic facts from any other source except the Red Protest leaders and red-sympathizing Thai translators or acquaintances, or from fellow non-Thai-speaking journalists who are similarly ignorant of Thai language, culture, history, and society, then perhaps CNN should consider reassigning field correspondents to Thailand. 


ในฐานะที่เป็นผู้ที่อาศัยอยู่ใน "เขตสงคราม" ของกรุงเทพ และมีประสบการณ์ตรงที่ได้รับผลกระทบจากกลุ่มผู้ประท้วงเสื้อแดงที่มีการข่มขู่อย่างต่อเนื่อง เรามีความกังวลว่าครอบครัวของเรา เพื่อนฝูง และบ้านเรือนของเราจะถูกระเบิดหรือถูกโจมตีจากกลุ่มหัวรุนแรงของกลุ่มคนที่ต่อต้านรัฐบาล กองกำลังต่าง ๆ ดิฉันอยากจะขอร้องให้ CNN ใช้จริยธรรมของวิชาชีพในการตรวจสอบอย่างถี่ถ้วน และพินิจพิเคราะห์ข่าวที่บิดเบือนจกการนำเสนอโดยผู้สื่อข่าวที่ได้พูดถึงข้างต้น หากพวกเขาไม่มีความสามารถในการหาข่าวที่เป็นจริงจากแหล่งข่าวอื่น ๆ นอกเหนือไปจากแกนนำคนเสื้อแดง และคนแปลที่เห็นอกเห็นใจฝ่ายเสื้อแดง หรือจากนักข่าวที่ไม่สามารถพูดภาษาไทยได้ ไม่รู้เรื่องวัฒนธรรม เมินเฉยต่อประวัติศาสตร์ และสภาวะทางสังคม และหากเป็นเช่นนั้นจริง ๆ CNN น่าจะหาผู้สื่อข่าวคนอื่นเข้ามาทำข่าวในประเทศไทย 



I implore and urge you to please take serious action to correct or reverse the grave injustice that has been done to the Thai nation, her government, and the majority of law-abiding Thai citizens and expatriate residents by having endorsed and widely circulated poorly researched and misrepresented news coverage of the current ongoing political unrest and escalating violence in Thailand. 

             

ดิฉันขออ้อนวอนและขอให้สำนักข่าวของท่านลงมือทำอย่างใดอย่างหนึ่งอย่างจริงจัง เพื่อแก้ไขความอยุติธรรมที่เกิดขึ้นกับประเทศไทย กับรัฐบาลไทย และประชาชนคนไทยส่วนใหญ่ซึ่งเป็นผู้ที่เคารพกฎหมาย รวมถึงชาวต่างชาติที่อาศัยอยู่ที่นี่ โดยการรายงานข่าวและงานวิจัยแย่ ๆ ซึ่งไม่ใช่ข้อเท็จจริงของสถานการณ์ไม่สงบที่เกิดขึ้น รวมถึงการรายงานความรุนแรงที่เกิดขึ้นจนเกินเลยเกินความเป็นจริง 



Copies of this open letter have also been distributed to other local as well as international news media and social networks for public information. Please feel free to contact me further should you require any additional concrete and reputable evidence in substantiation and corroboration of my complaints and claims stated hereinabove. 

             

สำเนาของจดหมายเปิดผนึกฉบับนี้จะมีการแจกจ่ายในประเทศไทย และในประชาคมโลก รวมถึงในเครือข่ายสังคมออนไลน์เพื่อเป็นข้อมูลให้กับคนทั่วไป กรุณาติดต่อดิฉันได้ทุกเมื่อหากท่านต้องการข้อมูลเฉพาะเพิ่มเติม หรือหลักฐานที่เชื่อถือได้ ที่เกี่ยวข้องกับเนื้อความที่ดิฉันเขียนมาทั้งหมดข้างต้น 


Thank you. 



Yours faithfully, 



Napas Na Pombejra, B.A., LL.B. (Lond.) 



Bangkok, Thailand 



May 17, 2010 


สำหรับ นภัส ณ ป้อมเพ็ชร์ จบการศึกษาจากคณะเศรษฐศาสตร์ จุฬาลงกรณ์มหาวิทยาลัย เกียรตินิยมอันดับ 1 เมื่อปี 2005 จากนั้น นภัส ณ ป้อมเพ็ชร์ ไปศึกษาต่อด้านกฎหมายที่ประเทศอังกฤษ และได้รับเกียรตินิยม เมื่อปี 2008 

ขอขอบคุณข้อมูลและภาพประกอบจาก 
ashitastudioclub.ning.com 
เครดิตจาก 
กระปุกดอทคอม

Unquote

I also have expressed my views in no uncertain terms to CNN.

To show my displeasure at CNN, I have unsubscribed from their daily newsletter and have told them why I have done so in that I am unable to trust the impartiality and objectivity of their news items and that their credibility has been seriously damaged as a result of these extremely bad reporting . At the same time, I have blocked their emails on my web filter and, if there was a way to block their news channel on TV, I would also do this. This is not just my opinion, many of my colleagues and friends have done likewise. They are really p---o--- with CNN.

If you feel the same way as I do, please register your displeasure with CNN in whatever way you so desire.

Ass! Airport seizure didnt involve any M-79's or RPG's! Nobody got hurt. Is that an act of terroism?

Well, once you sobered up you might want to read the definition of a terrorist act. Like your tag line and location, revealing.

Terrorist: a person who uses or favours violent and intimidating methods of coercing a government or community.

Concise Oxford Dictionary, 8th ed. 1990

Exactly! Merriam Webster: Violent or destructive acts (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror>.

Seizing an airport falls under a very destructive act in my book. Just as violent acts in order to intimidate do.

I am certainly not a supporter of the PAD by any means, but I do like to give credit where it is due. The PAD did not seize the airport. Their original intention was to line the access roads to the airport, still allowing people to reach their flights. The Airports Authority of Thailand, fearing seizure, closed the airport themselves and when the PAD realised this, they moved into the terminal building where, presumably, it was more comfortable.

As someone else pointed out in an earlier post, before they left, the terminal had been swept clean and not one item had been taken from the display stands. Contrast that with the reds looting of Central World, many ATMs and 7-Eleven stores. The comparison between the two is startling.

The sad part is this all could have been easily avoided at the outset by simply calling some early elections.

These are the same people who agreed to a peace deal and then started adding absurd conditions to go through with it. There is no guarantee that they would have kept their word if elections were called either.

No-one ever managed to explain to me why an election now would solve all problems. Do you already know which constitution to base elections on ? Do you know who is allowed to stand and who not? Do you have a workaable plan to ensure candidate's safety when they travel around to promote themselves? Do you have a plan to observe election day and results and what mandate to give observers? Do you already now how to nullify illegal result and the definition ofillegal results? Do I need to continue?

Discussion the framework offered by the PM, disccussing details, making changes, etc. seems a better start. But then that might be too logical :-)

CONFUSED...the old constitution seemed to work fine for the majority vote. Since it was fine tuned after the coup, I never once heard anybody say they wouldn't go to the polls under the new constitution. Was it well accepted? Maybe not. But did anybody say they wouldn't go to the polls with the new constitution? NO. But it's a nice red herring when you've got nothing else to go on.

Just for clarification purposes, the 1997 constitution was designed to try to limit the vote buying by political parties and to try to coalesce the diverse parties into a two or three party parliament, much along the lines of the UK parliament. That is why the dissolution clause was inserted. However, the drafters of the constitution did not foresee that any one party could get such a large majority that they could change the constitution. This is what happened when Thaksin first got elected in that he got in excess of the two thirds majority necessary to change the constitution. Why he did not do so during his first term may be explained by the fact the he may have not wanted to scare the electorate, particularly the so-called elite, but it is possible that he planned to do it in his second term. Unfortunately for him, and fortunately for the country, due to his greed and arrogance, he did not get the two thirds majority the second time he was elected.

The 2006 constitution changed the clauses that made it possible to gain such a two-thirds majority but the changes also ensured a continuation of coalition governments. However, it still retained the dissolution clauses for vote buying.

If these weapons belonged to the red shirts why were there not more soldiers killed when they cleared the protest area?

Because the cowardly and poorly trained "khwai daeng" ran so fast when the Armoured Personnel Carrier's and the real army showed up, they did not have time to trigger the weapons.

If anyone thinks the "khwai daeng" did not have weapons, they should have witnessed what I saw and heard on Rama IV Road after the "khwai daeng" leaders surrendered. Do you "khwai daeng" apologists believe the Metropolitan Electricity Authority (MEA) building on Rama IV Road spontaneously combusted? How about the attempts on the Thai Stock Market library building and the Queen Sirikit Convention Center on Ratchadapisek Road? Did the Bangkok Bank Branch on Rama IV Road also spontaneously combust? At the Maleenont Building housing the Channel 3 TV station, where did those 20 or so grenades that were used in an attempt to burn down that building come from?

Please one of you 'khwai daeng" supporters please explain to me how attacking these and other buildings helps you achieve democracy? How can anyone in their right minds believe these are the actions of peaceful protesters?

The government and the army have acted cautiously and prudently, I have watched them clearing the Rama IV Road, and they are using Bomb sniffing dogs and have found incendiary devices hidden among the tyres stacked on Rama IV Road. Do you think the army and the government stacked those tyres? Do you think the army and the government planted those incendiary devices?

You "khwai daeng" supporters and apologists should collectively have your ass**s kicked, and kicked hard. You should have your meager assets seized to help pay for the damage the "khwai daeng" caused in Bangkok. Also, if I ever find that bitch Khun Prateep Ungsongtham, I would personally like to break her jaw for inciting so many people to riot in the Rama IV Road area, I hold her personally responsible for the damage on Rama IV Road and for causing so much terror to people in the Klong Toei area.

I had no real opinions one way or the other regarding Thai politics prior to this whole disgusting display by the "khwai daeng", but I do hope the Thai PM Abhisit Vejjajiva continues to play a major role in SE Asian politics. This man has demonstrated the patience of "Job", he allowed the "khwai daeng" to hang themselves with their own rhetoric, it seems he rejected many options presented to him out of concern for all Thai citizens, even the 'khwai daeng". He has been tested like no other leader in the region and I think he has come out of this with more respect worldwide. Imagine trying to make an Oxford education seem like a liability, Thailand should be lucky they have such an intelligent individual as their PM. Now if the "khwai daeng" supporters in government could just use his example and show concern for all Thai citizens, instead of the unreasonable and ludicrous desires of one Thai / Montenegrin family, this country could actually prosper and benefit all its citizens.

@JamDown,

Thank you for your post. This just summarises what we, who strongly object to the wonton destruction of Thai property, feel about the red shirts behaviour. If you watch carefully, all the videos of the speeches of Thaksin, Jatuporn, Nuttawut, Arisman et al, which are freely available on U-Tube, you will see that this mayhem had been perfectly planned well prior to the rally at Rachadamnoen, never mind the change of location to Rachadamri. This is nothing short of planned, wilful, criminal behaviour and it deserves the highest penalty prescribed under Thai law. There are absolutely no mitigating circumstances that could cause a reduction in any sentencing that might be given by a court of law. I hope that they all get life.

My apologies to the forum member who associated the Asian Times with Sondhi. After more research, I see I need to clarify my accusations.

Sondhi was indeed one of the founders of the Asian Times. The newspaper however, folded 12 years ago even before his problems with Mr. T.

It was taken over by former employees, is published in Hong Kong and has an extensive British staff. A detailed reading of its articles will demonstrate a lack of bias in their articles, the comments on Thailand being a small part of their content.

I must say however, I believe an offhand comment trying to tie Sondhi to the article was disingenous at best.

And I do not consider Sondhi any more legitimate than the red shirt leaders.

Suppose you geniuses advise all of the factions how you would stop the vote buying and corruption both at the national and village levels. That might actually be helpful.

@oldgeezer

Thank you for your clarification. Just adds credibility to the article I quoted. I still stand by my assertion and belief that if someone alleges that you made a statement that you did not, and then you did not issue a statement denying the attribution, then it is obvious that the statement is true.

I think the British guy heard someone else talk about setting fire and then repeated the words, as heard in the video. Now he's going to be used as a scapegoat. I've seen some video footage on Thai channels showing a Thai guy setting fire to CentralWorld, but haven't been able to find the video anywhere online. I'm sure others saw it as well. Not sure though if that's one of the fires they extinguished or if it's the one that then made the entire building go up in flames.

But yeah, good job. Blame the farangs for the problems. That will bring the tourists back.

Clown by name, clown by nature. Did you see the video? It certainly did not sound as if he was joking, in fact he sounded deadly serious. The guy was obviously wound up. Witness the way he threw his stick to the ground. He was also interviewed several days earlier by the BBC at the red shirts rally so it was very clear that he was involved with the red shirts.

It beggars belief that any farang would get directly involved, except through forums like this, in what essentially is a Thai domestic problem. We are guests in this country so we should behave as such. I hope that Jeff who-ever-he-is gets a few years in a Thai gaol before being unceremoniously deported to the UK. The guy is obviously of low intelligence but this is no mitigating circumstance for his behavour.

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

Yes, there is a possibilitiy that the weapons were planted in order to give army and police the moral high ground.

Funny you'd say that. On of the red leaders said a few days ago "you'll see, when they move in they will 'plant and 'discover' weapons and bombs". Master of suggestion, insinuations and obfuscation these guys. It ensured there are lots of people and not only reds who wonder, wonder. Americans don't wonder, they know their government can't be trusted :-)

A classic case of disinformation at which the red shirts have proved to be masters

he following are two excerpts form an article in the AsiaTimesonlone.com

Sorry, "asiatimesonlone.com" does not exist or could not be found

Try this:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

Unarmed Reds, Amnesty International decrying the treatment of the poor innocents - BS, pure BS. Armed militants who should be treated as enemy combatants, if shown to have participated in a violent way.

The following are two excerpts form an article in the AsiaTimesonlone.com

Quote

Fog of war

The government has said it aims to separate ''terrorists'' from the ordinary protesters, while some red shirts have thanked the anonymous black-clad assailants for coming to their defense against state security forces. Therdpoum, a former member of parliament under Thaksin's original Thai Rak Thai party, says there has been obfuscation and propaganda on both sides of the conflict.

"The people who are the real planners, not the people up on stage making protest speeches, these people probably keep a very low profile, but they must calculate that aggression is vital," he said. "Aggression paralyzes and divides opponents. This is what we were taught, this is how a smaller force can defeat overwhelming power. The message was: divide and conquer."

Whether the UDD's shadowy armed wing consists of mafia thugs, unemployed irregulars or disaffected regular soldiers, they must be capable of ruthless and focused violence, he said.

Therdpoum, born in humble circumstances in northeastern Thailand, was a hotel union organizer who fled to the communist underground in 1975 to oppose a brutal right wing government. Many hundreds of the country's most energetic students and intellectuals did the same. Most, like Therdpoum, later renounced the ideology.

His five-year odyssey with the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT) included a three-month period in Hanoi in the heady period following the unification of Vietnam under communist rule. There, Therdpoum and a handful of hand-picked Thai activists, like prominent student leader Seksan Prasertkun, as well as current UDD leaders Weng Tochirakan and Jaran Dittapichai, were drilled in Maoist revolutionary theory.

The five tactics they learned for unseating a government included: divide your enemies; form a united front; use provocative violence; secure the loyalty of people inside the ruling regime; and, finally, win over the army.

"That is what we have seen. The government people have been quarrelling about what to do. Some senior figures have a divided loyalty. The army and the police cannot move. Provocative violence has been very successful," said Therdpoum, referring to the UDD's campaign to topple Abhisit's government.

"The tactic is to keep saying that you are a peace-loving people. The many factions folded into the united front [uDD] organization are not told what the real strategy is because they might not agree and they might not act their part convincingly," he added.

A generation ago, the eager young communists in Thailand's underground movement, many of whom now play major roles on Thailand's political stage, were told that propaganda should be blunt, simple and repeated incessantly to be effective. The UDD has similarly shunned hard policy debates in favor of simple credos of justice denied and the hypocrisy of elites.

"The red shirt people have been told over and over that greedy people in authority have denied them justice and their fair share. They have been pumped full of toy-town leftism and told to hate every institution that has held this country together. I worry that the bitterness and hatred produced by this propaganda now runs so deep it will cause tension and problems for a long time," Therdpoum said.

"Many of them are now absolutely convinced that Thaksin was the best leader in Thai history, that he was a kind and generous man who holds the solution to all their problems. They don't need a program - they just need a new Thai state with Thaksin in charge. It has become very emotional - as it was designed to be," he added.

Unquote

Quote

Ignorance over knowledge

Other observers believe that the anti-Thaksin, yellow-garbed People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) protest group that occupied Government House for several weeks and closed down Bangkok's airports for 10 days in 2008 helped to show the UDD how effective determined and prolonged protests could be. To be sure, there were violent moments during the PAD's many protests, launched first to remove Thaksin and later his proxy governments, but not to the extent of the current shadowy campaign of bombings and shootings.

The red shirts consist of many passive supporters, many active ones and, now, a hand-picked core of "professional revolutionaries" chosen for their loyalty and street smarts, according to Therdpoum. Behind them are many "deep secrets and hidden messages" that are revealed to only a privileged few in the movement, while an even smaller number know the entire strategy, he claimed.

"Old communists know that when it comes to revolution, ignorance is much more powerful than knowledge," Therdpoum said.

It is thus ironic that more former communists are currently on side with the royalist PAD than the supposedly pro-poor UDD, which is simultaneously striving to restore the billionaire Thaksin's wealth and power. So, too, is the fact that while the UDD has called with revolutionary zeal for a new political order, the Thaksin-aligned Puea Thai party that will contest the next elections is packed with old-style and corruption-tainted patronage politicians.

Therdpoum believes that the UDD's sincere left-wing members are using Thaksin and anticipate the opportunity to eventually dump his personal agenda in favor of the establishment of a more socialist society. Some of the former communists who took up arms and fled into the jungle in the 1970s and 1980s and were once in Thaksin's inner circle include Prommin Lertsuridej, Phumtham Wechayachai, Sutham Saengprathum, Phinit Jarusombat, Adisorn Piangket and Kriangkamon Laohapairot.

Its unclear how many of those former communists are now active from behind-the-scenes in the UDD's planning and strategy. Some media have recently published photographs of the UDD's three main stage leaders, Veera Musigapong, Natthawut Saikua and Jatuporn Prompan, with the exiled Thaksin in what appear to be planning sessions leading up to the current protests. It is debatable, however, how much real power they wield over broad strategy and tactics; Therdpoum, for one, discounts them as "showmen".

UDD organizer Jaran Dittapichai told this correspondent that the protest group had adopted "Mao Zedong's method of thinking" and some of his techniques, including the establishment of a united front. "I was a communist and several leaders were former communists ... but the red shirt people don't like communism or socialism. We use his principles to build up our front and to work with people who are not red shirts, but who are fighting for democracy like us."

He, like other UDD leaders, has consistently denied that the group is behind the mysterious bombing campaign that has coincided with its protest activities. "There is no third hand. There is only the first hand and the second hand ... the government side and our people," Jaran said.

"Before we started we discussed the [potential] problem of the third hand and who they might be. We were worried that someone might throw a bomb at us or shoot at us. We still have good luck - no one comes to throw a bomb [at us]."

Unquote

This says it all really. Thaksin was basically financing a communist-led revolution. Now we know why the red shirts chose red as their colour.

I think the news coming out now provides overwhelming evidence of a very serious communist plot to overthrow the monarchy and the state as it is today and to turn Thailand into a communist state. Thaksin and his baggage would probably have been dumped.

Given the mounting evidence, Thaksin and the red shirt leaders should deserve the death sentence for their actions. The probable outcome is very likely to be life sentences, given the current government's ideas on capital punishment.

Let the flames from pro-red contributors begin!!! Your responses will be seen for what they are. Given all the evidence to the contrary, they will seem to be defending the indefensible.

Do tell us why you believe a single word of a publications founded by Sondhi Limtongul?

It is interesting to note that none of the former Thaksin supported have come out to deny that they have made these statements. If a statement attributed to you is not true, would you not issue a denial?

That is what makes me believe it.

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

Please read my post above. The article quoted was from an independent Asean online newspaper and which quotes former members of Thaksin's regime. I would believe them rather than some farang who has just come out of the woodwork.

Unarmed Reds, Amnesty International decrying the treatment of the poor innocents - BS, pure BS. Armed militants who should be treated as enemy combatants, if shown to have participated in a violent way.

The following are two excerpts form an article in the AsiaTimesonlone.com

Quote

Fog of war

The government has said it aims to separate ''terrorists'' from the ordinary protesters, while some red shirts have thanked the anonymous black-clad assailants for coming to their defense against state security forces. Therdpoum, a former member of parliament under Thaksin's original Thai Rak Thai party, says there has been obfuscation and propaganda on both sides of the conflict.

"The people who are the real planners, not the people up on stage making protest speeches, these people probably keep a very low profile, but they must calculate that aggression is vital," he said. "Aggression paralyzes and divides opponents. This is what we were taught, this is how a smaller force can defeat overwhelming power. The message was: divide and conquer."

Whether the UDD's shadowy armed wing consists of mafia thugs, unemployed irregulars or disaffected regular soldiers, they must be capable of ruthless and focused violence, he said.

Therdpoum, born in humble circumstances in northeastern Thailand, was a hotel union organizer who fled to the communist underground in 1975 to oppose a brutal right wing government. Many hundreds of the country's most energetic students and intellectuals did the same. Most, like Therdpoum, later renounced the ideology.

His five-year odyssey with the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT) included a three-month period in Hanoi in the heady period following the unification of Vietnam under communist rule. There, Therdpoum and a handful of hand-picked Thai activists, like prominent student leader Seksan Prasertkun, as well as current UDD leaders Weng Tochirakan and Jaran Dittapichai, were drilled in Maoist revolutionary theory.

The five tactics they learned for unseating a government included: divide your enemies; form a united front; use provocative violence; secure the loyalty of people inside the ruling regime; and, finally, win over the army.

"That is what we have seen. The government people have been quarrelling about what to do. Some senior figures have a divided loyalty. The army and the police cannot move. Provocative violence has been very successful," said Therdpoum, referring to the UDD's campaign to topple Abhisit's government.

"The tactic is to keep saying that you are a peace-loving people. The many factions folded into the united front [uDD] organization are not told what the real strategy is because they might not agree and they might not act their part convincingly," he added.

A generation ago, the eager young communists in Thailand's underground movement, many of whom now play major roles on Thailand's political stage, were told that propaganda should be blunt, simple and repeated incessantly to be effective. The UDD has similarly shunned hard policy debates in favor of simple credos of justice denied and the hypocrisy of elites.

"The red shirt people have been told over and over that greedy people in authority have denied them justice and their fair share. They have been pumped full of toy-town leftism and told to hate every institution that has held this country together. I worry that the bitterness and hatred produced by this propaganda now runs so deep it will cause tension and problems for a long time," Therdpoum said.

"Many of them are now absolutely convinced that Thaksin was the best leader in Thai history, that he was a kind and generous man who holds the solution to all their problems. They don't need a program - they just need a new Thai state with Thaksin in charge. It has become very emotional - as it was designed to be," he added.

Unquote

Quote

Ignorance over knowledge

Other observers believe that the anti-Thaksin, yellow-garbed People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) protest group that occupied Government House for several weeks and closed down Bangkok's airports for 10 days in 2008 helped to show the UDD how effective determined and prolonged protests could be. To be sure, there were violent moments during the PAD's many protests, launched first to remove Thaksin and later his proxy governments, but not to the extent of the current shadowy campaign of bombings and shootings.

The red shirts consist of many passive supporters, many active ones and, now, a hand-picked core of "professional revolutionaries" chosen for their loyalty and street smarts, according to Therdpoum. Behind them are many "deep secrets and hidden messages" that are revealed to only a privileged few in the movement, while an even smaller number know the entire strategy, he claimed.

"Old communists know that when it comes to revolution, ignorance is much more powerful than knowledge," Therdpoum said.

It is thus ironic that more former communists are currently on side with the royalist PAD than the supposedly pro-poor UDD, which is simultaneously striving to restore the billionaire Thaksin's wealth and power. So, too, is the fact that while the UDD has called with revolutionary zeal for a new political order, the Thaksin-aligned Puea Thai party that will contest the next elections is packed with old-style and corruption-tainted patronage politicians.

Therdpoum believes that the UDD's sincere left-wing members are using Thaksin and anticipate the opportunity to eventually dump his personal agenda in favor of the establishment of a more socialist society. Some of the former communists who took up arms and fled into the jungle in the 1970s and 1980s and were once in Thaksin's inner circle include Prommin Lertsuridej, Phumtham Wechayachai, Sutham Saengprathum, Phinit Jarusombat, Adisorn Piangket and Kriangkamon Laohapairot.

Its unclear how many of those former communists are now active from behind-the-scenes in the UDD's planning and strategy. Some media have recently published photographs of the UDD's three main stage leaders, Veera Musigapong, Natthawut Saikua and Jatuporn Prompan, with the exiled Thaksin in what appear to be planning sessions leading up to the current protests. It is debatable, however, how much real power they wield over broad strategy and tactics; Therdpoum, for one, discounts them as "showmen".

UDD organizer Jaran Dittapichai told this correspondent that the protest group had adopted "Mao Zedong's method of thinking" and some of his techniques, including the establishment of a united front. "I was a communist and several leaders were former communists ... but the red shirt people don't like communism or socialism. We use his principles to build up our front and to work with people who are not red shirts, but who are fighting for democracy like us."

He, like other UDD leaders, has consistently denied that the group is behind the mysterious bombing campaign that has coincided with its protest activities. "There is no third hand. There is only the first hand and the second hand ... the government side and our people," Jaran said.

"Before we started we discussed the [potential] problem of the third hand and who they might be. We were worried that someone might throw a bomb at us or shoot at us. We still have good luck - no one comes to throw a bomb [at us]."

Unquote

This says it all really. Thaksin was basically financing a communist-led revolution. Now we know why the red shirts chose red as their colour.

I think the news coming out now provides overwhelming evidence of a very serious communist plot to overthrow the monarchy and the state as it is today and to turn Thailand into a communist state. Thaksin and his baggage would probably have been dumped.

Given the mounting evidence, Thaksin and the red shirt leaders should deserve the death sentence for their actions. The probable outcome is very likely to be life sentences, given the current government's ideas on capital punishment.

Let the flames from pro-red contributors begin!!! Your responses will be seen for what they are. Given all the evidence to the contrary, they will seem to be defending the indefensible.

The most important thing to a rural Thai is their ID card. This is the document that gives them their identity as a person and without it they can do nothing.

What? My wife lived in rural Issan and she couldn't find her ID card for two years without ever having one problem. I have never seen any of her brothers carry their IDs with them anywhere.

Had she given it to a "pu yai" who could/would punish her for not doing as instructed at a demonstration in Bangkok? No? Then, maybe you should read (and quote?) the whole post before banging your sphincter on the keyboard next time.

Under Thai law, Thais must carry their ID card with them all the times wherever they go. Failing to do so results in either a fine or a bribe. In the case of your wife, she must not have had to do any business with the local Amphur, banks, not stopped by the police etc. She cannot do any business in her own name with any of these institutions. In other words, you have probably been supplying her with all her needs. That is assuming that you actually live in Thailand.

I know that he reads the ThaiVisa forums as it gives him the pulse of the expat community

Let's hope not. He would throw us all out of the country.

I doubt it. He is a real democrat in the true sense of the word. A very decent chap, I can assure you.

Who said it was all finished? Red Shirts are planning a rally Senam Lueng Park 3 days after the emergency situation is lifted.

Please go to the Park and make sure this does not start up again.

Thailand has not learned it's lessons yet, Police in this country need to explain

why they are being so nice to Red Shirt Supporters/Members.

Below Red Shirt Leaders visited by Fans in their wonderful house of blithe.

The Thais is other Forums are very angry to say the least.

Nice place, I guess they have housemaids as well. We should all be so lucky.

May I suggest that the time for blame and vitriol has now passed and that we, as farangs and Thais, try to contribute a more constructive debate on how we think the reconciliation process can be achieved. I have already suggested some general ideas and I believe that we, as a group, can come up with possible, more specific solutions to the healing and development process. How about it guys and girls? Can we do this in a spirit of harmony and goodwill and perhaps make this our contribution to the country in which we work and live and that, most of us, love? I believe that Abhisit is open to ideas and may in fact incorporate into the plan some of the ideas created here. I know that he reads the ThaiVisa forums as it gives him the pulse of the expat community

Over to you.

I have some simple ideas.

1) Hold a REAL election with the UN in watching.

2) After the Reds win again, and they will, perhaps try something new for a change like recognizing the will of the people. Stop the endless chain of coups.

3) Put in a new Constitution giving the people full power with the elected Parliament.

4) Remove ALL Generals who do not swear allegiance to who ever is elected as PM and the ruling party in p[Parliament.

5) Remove all Top judges and replace them with REAL judges that will support the Constitution.

But of course, when we start with number 1 above, the whole thing is rejected by the group that has done over 20 coups.

This group is declaring victory as the nation burns.

You know how you can tell when the current Thai government is untruthful?

Their lips are moving.

But go ahead and declare victory as your nation breaks apart if it makes you feel strong.

Maybe you can abuse your maids at home.

The fight will resume again in just weeks.

The men in black--can do much worse to this place if the current regime chooses to prosecute and then kill the red leaders arrested.

The next time the entire city could burn.

I bought some marshmallows.

Ernie,

This was not the kind of response I was asking for. There is no hint of reconciliation in your post, just pure aggression. If you cannot contribute more positive ideas that reflect reconciliation and harmony, then I'm afraid your ideas are worthless to this debate. So, unless you can do as I have suggested, it would be appreciated if you could refrain from posting such negative comments.

Truth?

You want the truth?

You can't HANDLE the truth.

There will be no reconciliation

It is not a question of truth. It is a question of compromise and understanding which makes reconciliation possible. Your response just makes you just like the people who burned the properties in Bangkok. You appear to be beyond reconciliation and, in these circumstances ,you have nothing positive to contribute to this debate. It would therefore be better if you stayed out of it and if you continue in this vein, I will block you from the discussion.

The so called "innocent" people were there for several weeks, listening night after night, to incindiary rhetoric. Except for the children and mentally retarded they had the FREE WILL to reject those radical leaders and GO HOME. Those that stayed to the end, what excuse do they have? Whether they threw grenades, burned malls, shot guns, etc. themselves or not they were AWARE of what was going on (excepting the children and retarded). In my view, they are lucky to get the free bus tickets home without jail, yes, even the old ladies.

I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge their basic human intelligence. That means they had FREE WILL. Thus, they made the choice to follow those disgusting violent leaders. Not many innocents on those buses.

If they are going to burn down large sections of Bangkok, maybe they want to destroy their OWN land, their own livelihood? I thought not.

@Jingthing

The most important thing to a rural Thai is their ID card. This is the document that gives them their identity as a person and without it they can do nothing. In order to attend the rally, they had to give their ID cards to the village kamnan (headman for want of a better word) who arranged their transportation to the rally site. They could not leave without their ID card and the local kamnan who held them would not give them back. Furthermore, they had been told by Nuttawut et al that if they left, they would be shot by the army. No wonder they would not, could not, leave. This is the reason why the government announced that they would not need their ID cards if they left the rally site and reported to the police. Unfortunately, they believed their leaders when they were told that the police and army would shoot them if they left. Would you have left under these circumstances?

You must understand that these people have very little education and are products of a patronage system that has been in place since before slavery was abolished. The kamnan is their guiding light in political and village matters and they will, or cannot, go against him. In this sense, there is no such thing as free will.

May I suggest that the time for blame and vitriol has now passed and that we, as farangs and Thais, try to contribute a more constructive debate on how we think the reconciliation process can be achieved. I have already suggested some general ideas and I believe that we, as a group, can come up with possible, more specific solutions to the healing and development process. How about it guys and girls? Can we do this in a spirit of harmony and goodwill and perhaps make this our contribution to the country in which we work and live and that, most of us, love? I believe that Abhisit is open to ideas and may in fact incorporate into the plan some of the ideas created here. I know that he reads the ThaiVisa forums as it gives him the pulse of the expat community

Over to you.

I have some simple ideas.

1) Hold a REAL election with the UN in watching.

2) After the Reds win again, and they will, perhaps try something new for a change like recognizing the will of the people. Stop the endless chain of coups.

3) Put in a new Constitution giving the people full power with the elected Parliament.

4) Remove ALL Generals who do not swear allegiance to who ever is elected as PM and the ruling party in p[Parliament.

5) Remove all Top judges and replace them with REAL judges that will support the Constitution.

But of course, when we start with number 1 above, the whole thing is rejected by the group that has done over 20 coups.

This group is declaring victory as the nation burns.

You know how you can tell when the current Thai government is untruthful?

Their lips are moving.

But go ahead and declare victory as your nation breaks apart if it makes you feel strong.

Maybe you can abuse your maids at home.

The fight will resume again in just weeks.

The men in black--can do much worse to this place if the current regime chooses to prosecute and then kill the red leaders arrested.

The next time the entire city could burn.

I bought some marshmallows.

Ernie,

This was not the kind of response I was asking for. There is no hint of reconciliation in your post, just pure aggression. If you cannot contribute more positive ideas that reflect reconciliation and harmony, then I'm afraid your ideas are worthless to this debate. So, unless you can do as I have suggested, it would be appreciated if you could refrain from posting such negative comments.

Who said it was all finished? Red Shirts are planning a rally Senam Lueng Park 3 days after the emergency situation is over.

Please go to the Park and make sure this does not start up again.

Thailand has not learned it's lessons yet, Police in this country need to explain

why they are being so nice to Red Shirt Supporters/Members.

Below Red Shirt Leaders visited by Fans in their wonderful house of blithe.

The Thais is other Forums are very angry to say the least.

Nice place, I guess they have housemaids as well.

I think that the government will be well prepared for any protest rally. Having learnt a great deal from these past six weeks, they have already instituted new rules regarding protests and will never again allow a situation as happened recently to occur again. They will move very quickly to snuff out any protest that threatens the economic recovery. Given the poor performance of the constabulary during the recent crisis, I can foresee wholesale transfers to inactive posts and the promotion of more professional officers to senior posts. Time for a clean-out I'm afraid for the boys in brown. When they realise that Thaksin's days are over, they will probably be forgiven and return to the fold - very Thai indeed.

With regard to the pictures shown, I understand that this was the first day that the leaders were under arrest and, in typical Thai fashion, gave them the opportunity for their close relatives to visit them. I feel that this was used as a photo opportunity to tell the foreign press that the red shirt leaders are not being badly treated but, in fact, being treated rather well. As I understand it, all are now in cells, one cell to each. this was reported by Maj. Gen Amnuay during the evening news tonight. Hope this clarifies the situation for you. Lindsay.

May I suggest that the time for blame and vitriol has now passed and that we, as farangs and Thais, try to contribute a more constructive debate on how we think the reconciliation process can be achieved. I have already suggested some general ideas and I believe that we, as a group, can come up with possible, more specific solutions to the healing and development process. How about it guys and girls? Can we do this in a spirit of harmony and goodwill and perhaps make this our contribution to the country in which we work and live and that, most of us, love? I believe that Abhisit is open to ideas and may in fact incorporate into the plan some of the ideas created here. I know that he reads the ThaiVisa forums as it gives him the pulse of the expat community

Over to you.

Rogera: you make great points. I think the most important is this: How do you think they can undergo this difficult task of reuniting?

As someone now who watches the situation from abroad,why are there so many people on this site that can't remember that the people voted for Thai rak Thai party and it was so called stable for many years, what would have happened if the Military had null and voided the election in America or Britain?As I have pointed out on this site before, some people win the election and some people lose,That is what is called democracy,I voted conservative in the elections when Labour were in,but I accepted that that was the people's choice.Most people would agree that that is the way of the world now?? Why doesn't Thailand?When the next one comes is it all going to be the same again?.

Duangdao, from your name you are Thai, probably from the northeast or north, and I can understand the reasons for your post. I have relatives in the north east and think that the majority of the people there are probably the most sincere and honest people you can find in Thailand. However, you have to consider the reasons why Thaksin was overthrown in a coup because, with all his wealth and ability to buy votes, it was possible that he could have remained in power indefinitely. In retrospect, these fears may have been exaggerated for the reasons laid out below.

It may be that Thaksin was massively elected by over 60% of the vote when he lasted his first full parliamentary term. During that time, many people became totally disillusioned as explained in the next paragraph, and, at the subsequent election in 2005, despite massive vote buying, his share of the vote dropped off dramatically, so much so that the number of votes were fairly evenly split between TRT and the other parties at roughly 12, 400,000 for TRT and 12 million for the other parties. Although he had the largest number of seats and so formed the government, he still had to rely on the smaller parties to ensure that he had a comfortable working majority. In the election of 2007, Thaksin's share of the vote dropped even more to the point where his party could not muster an overall majority, relying on the smaller parties to govern. When, these smaller parties withdrew their support and joined the Democrats, Puea Thai had to relinquish power.

Thaksin was removed for several reasons, not least of which was massive kleptomania, i.e. the wholesale pilfering of the national treasury, a major threat to the continuation of the monarchy, selling Thai land off to Cambodia for lucrative contracts with that country and a massive conflict of interest in dealing with neighbouring countries e.g. Burma. Add to that the stacking of the police and armed forces with people close to him, who were equally corrupt, so much so that even the middle class who had previously supported him felt seriously threatened. There was also the shutting down of the press for publishing articles that Thaksin did not like, the sacking of officials for not bending to his corrupt orders and many other things besides. Thailand was fast becoming a banana republic in the eyes of the world. That was the reason why many, many Thais welcomed the soldiers with flowers. For them it was a great deliverance from what was becoming a parliamentary dictatorship and a fascist state. All this and just giving crumbs to the rural poor.

Whether you like it or not, Thaksin's days are over and it is very likely that if he ever returned, someone would have him killed for what he has done to this beautiful country. The red shirts days may not be over, (but Thaksin's are) but it is highly unlikely that they will be able to mount such a protest in the future again, at least not for a long time to come.

The government's first priority after restoring order and getting the economy going again is to try to reconcile both sides of the social divide. In this sense, if the government succeeds in this difficult task, it may be something that very good may out of this mess through investments in infrastructure projects and the development of the rural areas that provide jobs and a decent standard of living for the rural poor. That must be of the highest priority.

In every country, even in the west, the rural economy is usually slightly less developed than the main cities, but the income gap there is far less than it is in Thailand and part of the solution is to try to make this income gap much, much less here than it is at the present. I would urge you to try to have some hope for the future and try to overcome your negative feelings. In any case, if the so-called elite do not do this, their days are numbered. Thailand and its people are resourceful, hard-working and it is a wonderful place to live. Keep the faith.

I think that the government should lay out a short term, medium and long term (i.e. 1 year, 3 years, 5 years) development plan for the north, south and for the northeast in particular in a way that the rural poor can understand. These plans should be broadcast both on local radio and television and they should be expressed in terms of both the northern, southern and northeastern dialects, not bureaucratese, so that the local people can fully understand what the government is trying to do. The objective should be to greatly improve the quality of education and create jobs so that the people can earn a regular income In that way they can get credit for the things that they want, e.g. decent housing, proper education for their kids - all the normal things they aspire to, things that we, as farangs, take for granted. Such plans would also help with the insurgency in the south.

Another thing that would help greatly is a great reduction in the overt corruption pervading the governmental process. If this can be seen by the rural people to be greatly reduced and that this reduction provides more funds for their development, then they will buy into the process. The rural people are not stupid. They are, in fact very, very smart and can see what is going on but, given the patronage system that currently exists, they feel powerless to do something about it - hence the explosion in Bangkok this past week.

There are other ways that the government can improve the lives of the rural poor, like trying to remove the patronage system, but I do not want to bore everyone with the details. Suffice to say that the general ideas laid out above would go a long way to creating the conditions for a reconciliation process that would return Thailand to the double digit growth of the 1970's. As an optimist, I hope all of these ideas come to fruition, not just for the sake of Duangdao, but for all of the rural people of Thailand. Thailand would then be truly the tiger of Asia.

As someone now who watches the situation from abroad,why are there so many people on this site that can't remember that the people voted for Thai rak Thai party and it was so called stable for many years, what would have happened if the Military had null and voided the election in America or Britain?As I have pointed out on this site before, some people win the election and some people lose,That is what is called democracy,I voted conservative in the elections when Labour were in,but I accepted that that was the people's choice.Most people would agree that that is the way of the world now?? Why doesn't Thailand?When the next one comes is it all going to be the same again?.

Duangdao, from your name you are Thai, probably from the northeast or north, and I can understand the reasons for your post. I have relatives in the north east and think that the majority of the people there are probably the most sincere and honest people you can find in Thailand. However, you have to consider the reasons why Thaksin was overthrown in a coup because, with all his wealth and ability to buy votes, it was possible that he could have remained in power indefinitely. In retrospect, these fears may have been exaggerated for the reasons laid out below.

It may be that Thaksin was massively elected by over 60% of the vote when he lasted his first full parliamentary term. During that time, many people became totally disillusioned as explained in the next paragraph, and, at the subsequent election in 2005, despite massive vote buying, his share of the vote dropped off dramatically, so much so that the number of votes were fairly evenly split between TRT and the other parties at roughly 12, 400,000 for TRT and 12 million for the other parties. Although he had the largest number of seats and so formed the government, he still had to rely on the smaller parties to ensure that he had a comfortable working majority. In the election of 2007, Thaksin's share of the vote dropped even more to the point where his party could not muster an overall majority, relying on the smaller parties to govern. When, these smaller parties withdrew their support and joined the Democrats, Puea Thai had to relinquish power.

Thaksin was removed for several reasons, not least of which was massive kleptomania, i.e. the wholesale pilfering of the national treasury, a major threat to the continuation of the monarchy, selling Thai land off to Cambodia for lucrative contracts with that country and a massive conflict of interest in dealing with neighbouring countries e.g. Burma. Add to that the stacking of the police and armed forces with people close to him, who were equally corrupt, so much so that even the middle class who had previously supported him felt seriously threatened. There was also the shutting down of the press for publishing articles that Thaksin did not like, the sacking of officials for not bending to his corrupt orders and many other things besides. Thailand was fast becoming a banana republic in the eyes of the world. That was the reason why many, many Thais welcomed the soldiers with flowers. For them it was a great deliverance from what was becoming a parliamentary dictatorship and a fascist state. All this and just giving crumbs to the rural poor.

Whether you like it or not, Thaksin's days are over and it is very likely that if he ever returned, someone would have him killed for what he has done to this beautiful country. The red shirts days may not be over, (but Thaksin's are) but it is highly unlikely that they will be able to mount such a protest in the future again, at least not for a long time to come.

The government's first priority after restoring order and getting the economy going again is to try to reconcile both sides of the social divide. In this sense, if the government succeeds in this difficult task, it may be something that very good may out of this mess through investments in infrastructure projects and the development of the rural areas that provide jobs and a decent standard of living for the rural poor. That must be of the highest priority.

In every country, even in the west, the rural economy is usually slightly less developed than the main cities, but the income gap there is far less than it is in Thailand and part of the solution is to try to make this income gap much, much less here than it is at the present. I would urge you to try to have some hope for the future and try to overcome your negative feelings. In any case, if the so-called elite do not do this, their days are numbered. Thailand and its people are resourceful, hard-working and it is a wonderful place to live. Keep the faith.

There is an article in one of today's Thai newspapers that states that the news journalists were targeted by the black shirts under orders from Thaksin in order to force the UN to intervene. It is also reported in the same newspaper that some of the black shirts were imported from a neighbouring country by a senior Thai Rak Thai former minister with the help of a retired senior army officer. This would tie in with the comments by someone on this forum who said that his GF had told him that she heard some of them speak Cambodian rather than Thai. Makes you wonder how far these people will go to satisfy the demands of a meglomaniac.

There is another article in the Asia Times Online at

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

which spells out the strategy used by the red shirts to overthrow the government. Since these comments come from a former Thai Rak Thai minister, there must be a high degree of truth in these allegations and adds credibility to the charge that Thaksin is a terrorist.

These are just some of the allegations:

1. Ordering the shooting of red shirts in Ratchaprasong compound to increase the body count and blame the army.

2. Ordering the murder of foreign journalists to force the intervention of the UN. This was reported on Twitter yesterday by many people telling the journos to take off their green armbands.

3. Ordering the importation of foreign thugs to help in the fight against the army. The guns found at the temple in Pratunam included shotguns, .22 rifles, 38 mm pistols, AK47's, all except for

the latter, not Thai army issue.

4. Organising, financing and inciting the overthrow of the government.

I am sure that there will be more coming out in the next few days. Let's hope so, together with absolute proof, so that he can be denied sanctuary in any country and brought back to Thailand to be tried and jailed in a maximum security prison for life.

Here is a photo from twitter showing black shirt clothing found at the Pratunam temple after the army had cleared it out. Obviously the black shirts changed their clothing and mixed with the red shirts taking refuge there.

http://twitpic.com/1pb5g8

Also, there is an article in one of today's Thai newspapers that states that the news journalists were targeted by the black shirts under orders from Thaksin in order to force the UN to intervene. It is also reported in the same newspaper that some of the black shirts were imported from a neighbouring country by a senior Thai Rak Thai former minister with the help of a retired senior army officer. This would tie in with the comments by someone on this forum who said that his GF had told him that she heard some of them speak Cambodian rather than Thai. Makes you wonder how far these people will go to satisfy the demands of a meglomaniac.

There is another article in the Asia Times Online at

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

which spells out the strategy used by the red shirts to overthrow the government. Since these comments come from a former Thai Rak Thai minister, there must be a high degree of truth in these allegations and adds credibility to the charge that Thaksin is a terrorist.

These are pictures of black shirt clothing found in the Pratunam Temple after the army had cleared it out.

Sorry, file did not upload.

Please see it here:

http://twitpic.com/1pb5g8