jitenshaman

"There is nothing under the sun which the Thai police cannot do," Thaksin said on January 14, 2003, adding, "You must use iron fist against drugs traffickers and show them no mercy. Because drug traffickers are ruthless to our children, so being ruthless back to them is not a bad thing…If there are deaths among traffickers, it is normal."

If a lot of western countries had a Thaksin around, we would not be having the problems we are having. Look at the US/Mexican border..it's a bloody war zone with the drug cartels running the war. Thousand of innocent bystanders get killed in the crossfire. Human Rights watch/ Amnesty Int can not do much about that but, if the Americans sent in a couple of infantry brigades and slaughtered ever one of the SOB's (Mexico is far to corrupt to do it themselves) these same organizations would be howling like banshees. Ohhh don't hurt the drug dealers...don't put the cuffs on too tight you are violating their human rights. We kill civilians- in a war zone...war crime...Taliban kills 20 times more civilians...dead silence...same kind of BS.

Drug trafficers have no human rights as far as I'm concerned...they give them up when they decide to get into the trade. Sewer rats have more rights.

The other interesting thing about drug trafficers is that they are always...always innocent. Yep I'll just bet all those folks who got wasted on Thaksins watch

were just innocent little boys....just like their brothers in Mexico. Like I said...some people will believe anything....especially if some bleeding heart at Humans right watch tells it. These outfits have to spout and publish---their funding depends on it.

In countries like Burma or in the Taliban's Afghanistan, the "government" (read generals or people with guns) decides who has human rights. Under the Taliban, opium production was in fact lowered due to their hardline stance and thousands were killed. In a majority of Western countries, although it often leads to great problems, even the most despicable lout at least in theory gets a fair trial in front of a jury of his/her peers and again, at least in theory, is given the benefit of the doubt until proven guilty as charged, because this way of doing things is considered to be one of the tenets of what is considered "democracy." It seems to me that most of the Red supporters are stating on here that that is what this movement is about...to make Thailand a more fair place where the masses have a chance to improve and have rights and dignity which they feel they dont under the current system...if Thaksin's style of democracy is a better choice, I suggest you try some time in North Korea or the Union of Myanmar to see how utopian those societies are.

Even a simple look at the wikipedia page would give you a fair guide for what Thaksin is accused of. That would easily lead to plenty of other documentation, for and against, of his deeds.

Thank you for your response but that is precisely what I have done, plus a great deal more. If you read my post fully, I acknowledge that he was accused my many things (I did not bother to list them because as you say the wikipedia page alone lists them). My point was that despite all the accusations and charges against him all they were able to convict him of was "conflict of interest" which arouse from the land auction deal which was actually consumated by his then wife. Sorry I don't condemn a man for what he was accused of by his political enemies--anyone can accuse another person of anything. There is that small detail we seem to leave out of our discussions...proof of guilt. We seem to prefer to just blather on and on repeating the same nonsense over and over. Bandwagon effect---no authentication of anything that is said. We are divided into two camps---two solitudes.... facts don't matter any more. There are people in America who think G.W Bush actually organized the 9/11 attack...and that Elvis is alive and living on a S. Pacific island. People will believe anything...no real evidence or proof required. Its the same with the 500 bath payments or the previously touted 2000 baht payments...it gets said..then repeated and in no time it becomes fact regardless of any evidence to the contrary. People just make up stories to support their views and biases. I would never have to face a jury made up of Thailand ex-pats.

I dont believe Robert Mugabe has ever been convicted of anything either, nor for that matter, was Idi Amin. The following is excerpted from the Intl. Center on Human Rights and Drug Policies website, http://www.humanrightsanddrugs.org/?cat=20 If you search the NY Times, The Independent, and Amnesty International you will find similar stories. Sorry to say, I dont think these are being made up. I also advise you to see the film Citizen Juling, which has plenty of the Thai rural poor talking about how Thaksin's missives affected their families. I'd say this guy was doing slightly more than just dipping his hand in the cookie jar. In fact, warranting of putting him up there with some pretty horrid figures in history.

In the case that led to the convictions, Nat’s squad arbitrarily arrested Jutaporn Nunrod in Bangkok on February 8, 2007, and then took her to a “safe house” at the Green Inn Hotel. She was stripped half-naked, subjected to electric shock, severely beaten, and had a plastic bag placed over her head for two days in order to extract a confession that she was involved in drug trafficking. Jutaporn and her family were also forced to give cash and a gold necklace worth 100,000 Thai baht (US$3,000) to Nat. Other victims of Nat and his squad claim they were subjected to electric shock, had plastic bags placed over their heads, and were severely beaten. Many also claimed they were forced to pay bribes in order to be released or to have lesser charges filed against them.

“These convictions were not an isolated case of rogue officers, but part of chronic problems in police operations that use violence and illegality to fight crimes,” said Pearson. “Police in Thailand have long had sweeping powers and have rarely faced punishment for often horrendous misconduct.”

Thailand saw the worst police abuses after then Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra launched his notorious “war on drugs” campaign in 2003. During this campaign, Thaksin openly pushed police to adopt unlawful measures against drug traffickers.

“There is nothing under the sun which the Thai police cannot do,” Thaksin said on January 14, 2003, adding, “You must use iron fist against drugs traffickers and show them no mercy. Because drug traffickers are ruthless to our children, so being ruthless back to them is not a bad thing…If there are deaths among traffickers, it is normal.”

In January 2008, a special committee chaired by former Attorney General Khanit na Nakhon found that 2,819 people were killed in 2,559 murder cases between February and April in 2003 as part of Thaksin’s “war on drugs.” But despite many promises by Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to bring those responsible for the “war on drugs” murders and related abuses to justice, no action has ensued. Many police officers implicated in this inquiry and follow-up investigations by the Justice Ministry’s Department of Special Investigation remain in office. Many have even been promoted. The failure to hold abusive police accountable makes it more likely that killings, torture, and extortion will happen again, especially in the context of drug suppression operations, said Human Rights Watch.

I was mugged in the Klong Tan area a few years back. Two guys wielding machetes approached me from in front and behind in a darkened underpass at the bridge just west of the Klong Tan intersection. The attack occurred at about 8:30 pm. When they reached me they said nothing at all, but immediately one of them swung a machete downward at my forehead. I managed to get my hand up and blocked the machete, nearly severing the pinky finger and thumb on my left hand. I somehow broke free and ran as fast as I could, losing one of my shoes in the process. There was also a large slice on my neck that probably came from the other guy, also carrying a machete. The slice was not deep, but the fact that a machete made a cut on my neck was very disturbing. This was a horrible, horrible experience. Wrong place, wrong time I guess. But make no mistake, extreme violence is commonplace here on the land of smiles.

That is pretty scary..i lived by that intersection for 4 years, often walked right in that underpass at night..fortunately never had any incidents. So those guys never demanded money or anything, just an unprovoked attack. Did they try to follow you?

Wanna know what's sickening? Those who continue to blindly support a Prime Minister with blood on his hands. << That's sickening.

Thaksin is an ex-prime minister.

Fair enough.

But he's no longer in power now is he? No matter the outcome, I can't see Thaksin returning as PM.

if that was a guarantee and the Reds openly embraced that as part of their platform, they would have masses and masses of new supporters, myself included

a university education at least points you in the right direction of how the brain

should be used, something completely lacking in the current protesters...

like it was pointed out, how many educated university students are protesting?

ZERO

and of course you need a uni education to have a decent well paid career and

be a benefit to society, not a burden.... need i say more

The elitism grows in leaps and bounds here -- do you say that all who do not have a university education, are a burden to society and are no benefit to society -- who will grow your food ? --who will repair your car ? -- who will build your house ? -- etc !!!

The fact is that most in Thailand can not afford a university education -- they sometimes can complete their public schooling ( such as it is ) before they must start working to support their family.

Eton and Oxford are definitely not on the schedule for most Thais -- only honest, back breaking work until they die of 'old age' at a young age - yes, they smoke and drink too much, but so would you with their lifestyle..

Next thing, we will hear a repetition of that stupidity ( expressed during the airport seizure) about a constitutional amendment giving an extra vote to any with a university degree.

you're missing the point. You dont need a university education to start a revolution. And you are dead right, most of Thailand's rural and urban poor cannot afford nor are they privileged to an education, and i would say they are highly discriminated against. My point was merely in that huge numbers of successful revolutions around the world, students have taken large parts because they fervently believe in the democratic cause. In South Africa, Nelson Mandela was considered a criminal because of his skin color and because he represented the change that the government so feared...but the man who is sponsoring the Red Shirt movement is not a humble poor man who is a criminal because he is of dark skin or the rural poor. He is a megalomaniac billionaire who is as power hungry as any of the forces opposed to him. Additionally, Nelson Mandela never had 2500 people summarily executed without a trial. Have a viewing of the film Citizen Juling if you have a chance, it is primarily about the deep south of Thailand, and has many many references to the former PM and just how democratic he was.

The Thaksin obsessives who maintain it is essentially orchestrated & all about one man, would presumably anticipate the democracy demonstrators in Bangkok would return home and life would continue as if the last decade had never taken place. No rural discontent, no demands for a more representative democracy, no demands for a better life and a fair share of the national wealth.

The article above shows the reality of the mass of democracy demonstrators in Bangkok - far from benefiting financially by their actions they are losing significant amounts by their standards. They are prepared to do that, and potentially lay down their lives because their cause is just & because the rest of Thai society - who blatantly & unashamedly benefit from the Thai apartheid system - has given them absolutely no other option.

so why doesn't the govt put forth the following: House will be dissolved and elections held within whatever is a reasonable time (3 months, 6 months). International monitors will be invited to check the elections, AND, the most important element, Mr. Thaksin, as a criminal thug and fugitive will be forever banned from being involved in any way shape or form from Thai politics....think the Reds will sign on? Not a bloody chance. Once again, this protest, while perhaps morphing into the possibility of something bigger, is not about democracy, it is about one thug's millions. Have a look at "democracy" movements worldwide. One group that is always at the forefront of such movements are university students, educated, idealist university students. How many uni students do you see at the Rachaprasong junction, .001% Most of the ones i've asked all know the truth about what a sham this is.

I think you are making one mistake here; If these were people with political grievances and an understanding thereof, I would agree, but the majority are nothing but uneducated, IQ challenged people who are only here because Mr. T is paying them.

Remove all those porn's, you end up with a group of hardcore would be Terrorists and their leaders who are all looking at overthrowing the government for financial gain once Mr. T returns.

Why are they so against the 9 months term - the answer is simple, it would cost Mr. T too much to keep up his supporters

It probably has more to do with the military command reshuffle and military budgets coming up than anything else. Also, wouldn't it be a bit disingenuous for them to be protesting for a true democracy to exist in 9 months? If you want something, chances are you want it now.

It has heaps to do with the reshuffle.

Abhisit even said that. The reds haven't been so open.

Thaksin need elections now so that he can buy the result and control the reshuffle. Once he controls the army, he can walk back without a problem.

Someone enlighten me here. If the Reds succeed in dissolving the House, win a new election, and bring back the criminal as PM, wont he completely reshuffle the army to his favor? In this case, Annupong and any successor will be history. So why wouldn't the army be backing the Dems now, allowing this to get as far as it has gotten?

i dont understand why the Thai Baht still strong

mamasans in Nana paying off the Central Bank

This Red Shirt demonstration is about freedom! Freedom of speech, social justice and freedom of the press/TV. these are things we in the West we take for granted! the Thais are demonstrating for their freedom, Democracy, social justice, these are the elements of democracy. The press Thai and International want you to believe it is about Taksin, it is not about Taksin, it is about democracy. The Thai elite have held 24 coo's undermining democracy in this country Thailand. The elite Bangkokians are 20% of the population they own 60% of the income and wealth in this country. It seems it is OK to come and enjoy the hospitality of Thailand, but when Thailand needs support from the resident Farang's who enjoy these simple freedoms in their home country, Farangs turn coward and run to their safety and security of "jeaprodizing their stay visa" in Thailand, cowards! Where did your fore fathers get their freedom? It was never given to them, they had to take it. Go back home and take your pension income, from your rich country with you, or stand up for human rights, freedom and show what it means to cme from a country with democracy, or have you forgotten?

it's not about Thaksin? Then why on earth is he on every t-shirt, banner, and spending hours phoning in to tell the masses what is next? Do a bit of research as to what happened to press freedom of speech under Mr. Democracy. Hate to say it, but this whole movement is akin to Jesse Helms leading a movement against racism, and unfortunately a lot of folks haven't done much homework

Indeed Thaksin had and it seems still has his own unique version of DEMOCRACY

In all of my twenty years here I had never seen such a despotic regime like Thaksins regime.

The truth along with honesty and concern for other were not endangered species they were extinct,

Indeed the current rhetoric and actions of the puppet leaders of the Red Shirt Brigade are proving that the exhumation of '' The truth, honesty and the concern for others'' must be re interred post haste forever under their brand of DEMOCRACY.

Good post siampolee. I first came here in 1995 and remember well the fear that Thaksin's premiership inculcated during 2004-2006. Good knows why anyone would want him back, unless of course they thought the 30baht health care scheme was of such great magnanimity that all other social, political, business and human rights abuses should be forgiven.

What's wrong with you sheople here? The point is there is an unofficial, military-installed gov't calling the shots. The reds want a fair and democratic election...regardless who wins.

let' see..."protesters," being paid money to protest for "democracy" by a movement run by a criminal dictator who paid to win his last "democratic" election? Yeah, i guess it is all about democracy and free and fair elections.

Maybe I am naive but do those calling on the gov't to restore order and jail Reds really yellow shirts? I am very against what the yellows did at the airport but that is over and now is now. The law should have been enforced then as it should be now and until the gov't acts on these folks who take the law into their own hands this BS will never stop.

I am very much against the Reds but I am by no means a supporter of the Yellows. I believe all the poor people of Thailand should have the ability to make a good living and be provided the basic things (shelter, food, medical ...) but this is no easy feat and takes time. I believe both Thaksin (previously) and the current government are moving towards doing this. Folks, even in the US people are not afforded these things. When it comes to medical especially, the poor in Thailand have it much better off than those poor or lower middle class in the USA.

However, I am against Thaksin though he did many good things he did many bad that cannot be tolerated. Forget the corruption but this guy approved and encouraged thousands of summary executions of Thai citizens. Not to mention he was clearly getting out of control and behaving as a dictator. This is not democracy and neither is bowing to the demands of one party because they have decided to inflict pain on a country and its people.

Anyway, just curious if those opposing the Reds here are really supporters of the Yellows and condone this kind of behavior by the reds (or any color) if you believe the political complaint is just.

very very sensible post, you are to be commended. While i would tend to support most movements by the "poor" asking for "democracy" and am against any kind of military dictatorship, the entire Red Shirt charade just completely fails 100% since it is all about Thaksin who is a thug butcher and is as far away from democracy and understanding poverty as anyone could get.

Now that the 2 fountains of information have settled the holiday program for March,

I'd be very happy for a yes or no answer to post # 1363.

It shouldn't be too difficult.

Thank you very much.

for US citizens, it is $36 for the visa (35+1fee), or more if you pay in baht. I believe it is $30 for certain other countries' passport holders.

Various people have said the present government is a legitimate government. With a scheduled election (legitimate) being sidelined by the coup everything that came after the coup is tainted with the same poison....including the Dec 07 elections. The country needs free elections without the military involved to leave the past behind.

It is a joke to say that elections in which people are paid to vote are free and fair. The coup and subsequent government was not democratic nor free and fair, and Thaksin's government was never free or fair either. For the Red Shirts movement to be based on gaining "democracy" for Thailand is nothing but a hypocritical joke, and unfortunately one that has polarized the country and cost innocent lives.

Got to love this place, theres always another 'D' day, just around each corner.

Time to stock up on baked beans again

baked beans are an extravagance here, better to get your local vendor to make you a week's worth of som tam!

[quote name='Lizard' date='2010-03-04 16:30:20' post='3386161

Thaksin was a great Prime Minister of Thailand, he wanted to get it out of it's 3rd world quagmire, and get it more like Singapore is, clean living, rode rules observed, etc. etc. etc. etc. Now this Military run country is more like a dictatorship, they can do, say and stop anything they dam_n well please. There is a lot more to it, but I might be chastised by our illustrious Thai Visa Controller, for really saying whats going on here in Thailand. You people better really get your facts right, there is going to big some huge changes made here in Thailand *deleted*

Yes for the march, no for milatary control-

You have it right I am pro RED SHIRT !!!

A great modern prime minister? I am sure the kind citizens of Tak Bai would agree with you, along with the families of the 2000 "suspected" drug dealers shot point blank in the head without trial. Sounds more like a military junta's regime than democracy to me. It's a pity that the Reds have little to stand on as a party advocating "democracy" when they continue to keep as a leader a convicted criminal and man who is about as far from "democracy" as it gets.

remember the millions that turned up to get the Berlin wall down, the velvet revolution in Czech. all wanted democracy, no matter how you look at it the guy won 3 elections, they banned his party so they set up PPP who stormed to victory again, then sacked the PM for the henous crime of making a cookery show on TV. why is Taskin a traitor becuse he works for a neighbouring country. if you had no money for hospital treatment, then some guy bring in a scheme that says for 30 baht you get all the treatment you need, saved thousands of lives including my father in law, would you note vote for him. this goverment did not get voted in democratically. if the majority want him as prime Minister then thats it end of story its democracy, Germany took away democracy from the Polish look what happened them. we went to war to give the Iraqies democracy, only after no wmd. taskin is the rightful leader of this country, so say the MAJORITY. if Mark had the most votes i would support him, but he does not simple as. ballaot box over tanks and guns anyday. taskin most farangs had never heard of Taskin until he bought in the 2 am closing then thats it hes the devil. people have the right to protest in my country why should they be stopped of marching in support of their democracy that was taken away with the barrels of tanks.

the people who marched in Berlin didn't get paid 300 baht per person, they marched with their hearts. If I remember correctly, the days after the coup, people were out in mass giving the soldiers flowers and food, I didn't see a single person carrying a placard or screaming that their democracy had been taken away. Most people just seemed pretty relieved that a man who was a thug and criminal (read dictator) had been removed from office.

Anyway, the 1,000,000 man march will certainly look more like a 20-30,000 , and the 100,000 pick up truck, more like 2,000 at most....

Nothing to worry , they'll surely have a welcome committee somewhere before reaching BKK

with Thaksin out 46 billion, I dont think they can foot the food, drink, and holiday money necessary for the one million plus all the petrol!

Hopefully this man who was elected by the people of Thailand, and then was chased out without being defeated in an election, will return.

Change the tune would ya. That one has been done ad finitum.

hopefully the man who abused power, swindled the country, and is now a common criminal will return and get to languish in a cell where he belongs.

It's not a problem residents have to deal with but I can only presume that your hotel/guest house will be able to arrange transport.

Failing that the tuktuks/songtaews at the old bus station and in the main street would oblige. These would be the cheapest, I'd imaging about 100B could be negotiated.

I'd allow 30 minutes to get to the airport from the city centre, it shouldn't take that long though, then an hour for check in.

cheapest way is to hop the 552 which runs down Sukhumvit to Suvarnabumi...it takes about an hour and i believe costs around 24 baht max. It runs from 6am. Barring that, there is a minivan which runs from the On Nut BTS station that costs 25 baht and takes about 45 minutes.

The Thai government is pompously declaring that they are going to seize all of Mr. Thaksin's money because he got it thorough graft. He owned a telecom giant and sold it, legally. If anything is illegal, it is probably the government's entire case against Thaksin. I am not a fan of old "square face," but he is no worse than any other highly-positioned Thai. As graft and corruption are SOP in Thailand, the government trying to seize his money is probably the purest case of irony I have seen in a long time. I will now sit back and watch the real-life Thai soap opera

I agree. Also like the potential seizure of the land purchased (legitimately) by his wife, and from where the 2 year conflict of interest sentence for him came from, though his wife was cleared of all charges. Are they going to return the money that was paid for the land to her?

Since all was so legal, wonder why he fled the country after being found guilty....also wonder why he dissolved his marriage to try and escape more legal troubles? Why not share the fortune amongst the poor tuk tuk drivers of Phuket, only on condition that they start giving 20 baht fares for the rest of their lifetimes.

Thanks for your advise. I walked away with my single entry wondering whether I had done something wrong, whether they thought by giving me a single this time it would mean that I would be paying for the next one (if they stop giving free ones away in March) or whether it was because it was the 4th of January, first day back, and nobody was in the mood for work. There were more people than I have ever seen at a Thai embassy in the region, 540 people before me and probably another 200 after me.

Thanks again, I'll explore my options.

I just came back to Vientiane, thought I'd share the latest.....I have 8 tourist visas in my passport, fully expected the dreaded red stamp. Not the case, so the number of Tourist visas in the passport as a red stamp guarantee is not the case. I did not see anyone else get a red stamp or complain of one...all in all, the process was smooth, almost no line cutters, the number system seems to work, everything was efficient....however, all was not perfect. Myself, along with many others, were not given double entries as asked for but only single entries, with no explanation other than "my boss not want to give" when asked. I would guess it didn't have to do with our number of stamps in the passport but more to do with the fact that they will start charging as of March again and wanted us to come back.

My work permit did the trick.

Hey thanks for the comment tonitit, perhaps you could make another when you have a little less time

Why so much hassle, show workpermit etc. come on...

Just drop 50b on the counter with a smile, then look the bitch in the eyes as if you say 'if you dare...' and walk away, with a smile again, always works, she got the message. If you end up in a conflict with some dumb official and no choice then adding the 35b just smash it on the ground, they really really hate to kneel for you ! When it's a cop however never do this.

Some of them you really need to keep short, no respect they made me even when for just 1 bath.

I refuse that nooo-I'm-stupid-again feeling, no more !

It's so important to always keep focusing on the nice things, the nice people and there are enough (and avoid Phuket I guess, never liked that place) but no more mindfukkers within my circle please.

I prefer to just boycott such shops.

I agree, just boycott them....i was in Chatuchak in Bangkok some weeks ago waiting for some friends. Stopped to have a bowl of kanom jeen noodles. When i asked to pay, the vendor pointed to a sign in English that said 50 baht. I looked over on the Thai menu which said 30 baht. I pointed this out (in Thai) to the vendor and she again pointed to the sign in English. I told her, "mai chai, kanom jeen 30 krup." She again pointed to the sign. I brought the menu over and asked her if she could read Thai. Pointed out that kanom jeen looked to be 30 baht. Gave her 30 baht, she gave me an insulting look and i left. Her loss, I told all my friends never to go there, Thai as well as farang.

Never used Tuk Tuks. Too expensive. Could be a great form of transport, but they made a balls of it. The drivers attitude to cost etc totally turned me off.

Always used motorcycle or boat taxis.

Tricky to get a boat taxi to Central Festival.

[/quote

But very easy to get the regular bus from the airport to Phuket Town and then the excellent public songthaew for 25 baht or whatever to Central Festival, just boycott the tuk tuk drivers.

usually thai hotels are the best in terms of pricing, services and cleanness compare to the hotels in the US and UK. with these price range, it is impossible to stay in any hotel in the western world.

this is a confusing article and it has nothing to do with other hotels in Thailand.

Exactly - You can't even stay in a hotel in the USA.

If you can afford to stay in a hotel

in USA then your making enough money to rent or buy a used motorhome.

I don't see the famous 300 baht rooms in

Thailand much any more but you can probably still

find them in rural towns. Comparing a few run down hotels

in all of Thailand compared to 1000's and 1000's of

all the hotels makes no sense. The article is a waist of time.

Price is all that matters and you can look and see the joint when you

first walk in and then turn around and walk out.

i did an update on a guidebook to Isaan last year and stayed in a lot of places for 250-400 baht, all with hot water, cable tv, aircon, clean, great staff, in Udon, Ubon, Buriram, Si Saket, Khon Kaen, and elsewhere...interestingly enough, sometimes my choices were far cleaner and better looking than some of the top rural capital hotels i reviewed (2000 baht plus a night).

Currently 1249 ppl reading this; must be a vital issue

The barfine model is (in my opinion, and without being a lawyer) a pretty safe legal way of running a bar, and one that would be mighty hard to knock in any court. The ladies are service personnel (you know -- bringing you drinks ), and if they want time off, the owner needs to be compensated for salaries paid. And I can't see any law in sight that would dictate that a bar owner has to keep "his" ladies in reign while they're off work...

Let's just not go into top-less, bottom-less & everything-else-less while they're AT work .

how about those bars where they lick lollipops while at work, is that kosher?