OJAS

There is a fillable version of the TM7 form included in ubonjoe's post dated 13 May 2017 in the pinned Immigration Templates thread. This will prompt you on what needs to be completed and where if filling out the form on a computer.

9 hours ago, connda said:

So basically Mike - I don't trust Thailand or the intentions of their Finance Ministry.  Everything I see here points to their  intention to side-step their DTAs with other countries in order to increase their tax base by taxing foreign income they have no right to tax.

If it were ever to come to Thailand unilaterally ripping up its DTA's with other countries then I think that we would have every right to expect international retaliatory action to swiftly follow, in the form of travel bans imposed on those responsible in the Thai government for those outrageous decisions and the immediate freezing of all Thai hiso assets held abroad. In a not too dissimilar manner as to how Putin and various others in the Russian government along with a number of Russian oligarchs have been sanctioned internationally in the light of the Ukraine conflict.

That all said, though, whether individual Western governments in particular would, however, be prepared in practice to effectively reclassify Thailand as a pariah state along the likes of China, Russia, Iran and North Korea does sound highly improbable in practice.

On 4/26/2024 at 9:38 AM, Foxx said:

 

That assumes that one knows that HMPO stands for.

Bungling incompetence and ineptitude. I thought that was common knowledge!

There does appear to be some issue with the online reporting system at Jomtien, according to @soisanuk's posting on the following thread:-

https://aseannow.com/topic/1326087-online-90-day-address-notification-rejected/

Apparently online reports to that particular office are these days processed automatically, as opposed to manually by some immigration officer gleefully hitting the REJECT button.

Mike - the following link contains an overview map which some might find useful in identifying the locations of their local revenue regional and area offices (I certainly found it useful in identifying mine):

https://www.rd.go.th/337.html

Despite it being solely in Thai, might still be worthwhile quoting it in your guide (around paras 72 & 73), perhaps?

1 hour ago, UKresonant said:

 

It does mention the apportionment method for the relief. (That method circumstantially reinforced for CGT etc maybe). 

 

So it would seem that you have to list and provide the tax paid on say all your pensions, and the credit relief will be proportional to the amount remitted.

So say perhaps (for simplicity example)

UK state pension £10k

UK Employer pension £15k

UK Civil Service .GOV £ 5k (only taxed in UK re-DTA)

Private pension 1 £1285

Private pension 2 £1285

 

£32570 (UK personal allowance £12570) - THB 1465650

 

So say 20% tax above p.a. = £4000

 

Remit say £20k - THB 900k 

 

Tax credit 61.4% of £4000=£2546 - THB 110.5 k credit relief available.

 

But there should be no tax on the GOV pension, but it would be needed for the Credit relief Calc?

 

So will the just say the Gov pension is placed at the bottom of the stack where they say your not being taxed, but that would (as mentioned in another post) it pushes everything else up the Thai taxation bands (also UK  .Gov pension could well exceed the Thai tax PA and zero bands..)

 

( Something similar suggesting apportionment was noted in the Norwegian question PDF back about p222 ish with the emphasis on avoiding double relief, in relation to the Personal allowances of each state).

 

It's Sunny here in Scotland currently, but God has still got the External Aircon set about 10C, Still,will go out for a wee while.  .

 

 

Having taken another look at the TRD note, it strikes me that a fundamental flaw with it throughout is that it doesn't differentiate between foreign-sourced income which is assessable and that which is not.

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I get an automatic translation into English using google, the Representative Accounting Office link is on the right hand side at the bottom of the page. You have to enter your location into the box before it will search and return a list of agents, if you tell me where you are located I'll do it for you..

Thanks, Mike, I live in Rayong.

Incidentally I've now come across this link which states that "In order to file a hard copy personal income tax return using form PND 90/91, taxpayers must do so at any Revenue Department Area Office" (under the "Submitting your tax return" heading).

https://franklegaltax.com/2023-tax-return-filing-in-thailand/

Just come across this TRD note (apologies if it has already been referred to in this thread):

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

Page 5 sounds worrying though - seems to imply that ALL remitted income should be reported in tax returns, whether assessible or not.

19 hours ago, Upnotover said:

Sure, I know how things change.  I used to get non-O multi's in the UK just by being able to name a Thai person.  I'd still be happily doing that but unfortunately that door closed long ago.

No mention of a hand-drawn map in your original list, though, which has, I believe, been a nonsensical CW requirement for retirement extension applications. So presumably common sense has finally prevailed in that regard?

13 hours ago, MistyBlue said:

This is not correct.  The UK state pension is taxed.  You might be getting confused with the method in which the tax is collected on a state pension, often through other streams of income.

In any event it is highly unlikely that any tax on the State Pension would be due at the Thai end, thanks to the exemptions and allowances listed in para 76 of Mike's guide. I have prepared a spreadsheet setting out how a ภ.ง.ด. 91 return might look like in my case, based on TRD's 2023 forms and the State Pension being my sole source of assessable income. The result is a negative figure - which is even before the 0% rate exemption up to 150k referred to in para 75 of Mike's guide comes into play!

In these circumstances I can now see no good reason why I should be expected to surmount the formidable bureaucratic roadblocks which the TRD have, in their infinite wisdom, chosen to place in my way as regards both obtaining a TIN initially and subsequently filing tax returns either online or in paper form.

Indeed, I wonder whether Article 23(3) of the UK/Thailand DTA could also be said to apply to those in receipt of UK company pensions where sufficient evidence exists of tax payments to HMRC? This could be an even more crucial factor in their case given that they are otherwise highly unlikely to be fully exempted at the Thai end.

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

Except the UK State pension is not taxed

It is in my case. I pay tax on my Civil Service pension through my tax code (which takes account of the £12,570 personal allowance). And, in the tax returns I still file with HMRC, I always check the 2 boxes instructing them not to make any deductions through my tax code - meaning that they then require me to pay tax on account equal to 20% of my State Pension income. Could provide evidence of this to the TRD, in the hopefully highly unlikely event of ever being challenged, in the form of paper versions of my SA100 returns plus HMRC tax demands.

On 4/24/2024 at 6:35 PM, UKresonant said:

The TH-UK DTA  does have a clause at 23 (3) that says UK source tax will be allowed as a credit against Thai Tax.

Interesting point, of which I wasn't previously aware. It would appear to indicate that the State Pension COULD, in certain circumstances, be said to be covered by the DTA - which, in turn, might have ramifications on whether or not it needs, in theory, to be covered in any TRD tax return.

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Firstly, my apologies about the earlier link, I knew it was not the right one but forgot to remove it before I ran off down the the TRD office to find the right answer.

 

Your quote above is the Head of Office of the TRD in Bangkok but it is not recommended that you mail returns there. The advice I have received from both TRD and from others mirrors what is written in the following link:

 

"In order to file a hard copy personal income tax return using form PND 90/91, taxpayers must do so at any Revenue Department Area Office along with any additional tax that is owed in cash, by cashier’s check, or by QR code, and that must be paid within seven days of the date the tax return was issued. The deadline is March 31; after that, late filers will be charged an additional 1.5% monthly surcharge (or fraction thereof) on top of the unpaid tax. Those who apply will have access to interest-free installment payment plans for up to three months. The penalty for submitting documents late ranges from THB 200 to 2,000". 

 

https://franklegaltax.com/2023-tax-return-filing-in-thailand/

 

Mailing returns to Bangkok is not advised because the mail system is not sufficiently robust and Bangkok is not geared up to receive them in large volumes.

Whilst I appreciate the obvious risks of using the mail service to file paper returns where tax payments in some form or other (in particular cash) need to be included, these are unlikely to apply in my case. The requirement to file returns stems purely from my admissible expenditure (solely in the form of the UK State Pension) totalling more than 120k pa - and it is clear from the various exemptions and allowances detailed in the Guide that I won't, in practice, be required to make any tax payment.

Indeed, according to some tentative calculations which I have undertaken based on TRD's 2023 forms, it appears likely that I shall, in due course, be reporting a negative figure for the 2024 tax year. And that is even before the zero-rating of the first 150k comes into play!

The issue then arises as to which Revenue Department Area Office I'll need to submit my 2-page ภ.ง.ด. 91 return + Allowances/Exemptions attachment to in due course - hopefully by EMS mail rather than physically in person. According to the TRD's organisation chart at  https://www.rd.go.th/english/6015.html there appear to be 119 such offices in existence. Unfortunately, though, the TRD, in their infinite wisdom, have chosen, for reasons best known only unto themselves. not to publicise the locations and catchment areas of these offices on their website as far as I can tell! So how else are each of us supposed to be able to identify the relevant office in our case?

Ditto in the case of the 12 Regional Revenue Offices from which we may need to obtain our TIN's if your previous experience in that regard still holds good.

Mike - might this be the address to which paper returns should be sent?

The Revenue Department
90 Soi Phaholyothin

7 Phaholyothin Road

Phayathai

Bangkok 10400

12 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

the address where paper based returns must be sent can be found in the link below.

No mention of any address in https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/ or https://www.expatica.com/th/civil/administration/tax-id-thailand-2172861/#apply as far as I can tell!

What address should paper returns be sent to, and would this be worth stating in the Guide, please?

2 hours ago, wood78 said:

when attempting to remit funds to an overseas account.

Which, of course, will inevitably result in significant banking charges and fees being racked up on your part over the years as you play ping-pong with your 400k between your European and Thai bank accounts. While you might well be more than happy to make generous donations to the Bankers' Benevolent Fund in this way, I strongly suspect that precious few of the rest of us on here would likewise be so willing in similar circumstances!

1 hour ago, wood78 said:

Went to send the same money back to the original EU account and was met with a brick wall...

Can not do, not allowed.

Dee Money may be your friend if you're really hell-bent on doing this:

https://www.deemoney.com/

12 hours ago, Liquorice said:

You can cancel your debit card, return it to the bank, that will only save annual fee charges.

When I cancelled my Bangkok Bank debit card several years ago, I visited my local branch in person and was required to sign a couple of forms so as to ensure that my account was not debited with subsequent card fees.

8 hours ago, webfact said:

Expat Challenges: Bureaucracy and Diminishing Opportunities

 

British expats in Thailand report navigating increasingly complex immigration procedures, including stricter visa requirements and work permit regulations. This bureaucratic maze is discouraging potential expats, while those already established may feel a waning sense of security.

Also worthy of mention IMHO are the increasingly complex procedures which HM Government back in Blighty has seen fit to inflict on us Brit expats over the past 10 years or so in the areas of renewing our passports locally, proving that we are still in the land of the living for our State Pension and getting UK docs legalised for use in LOS.

22 hours ago, Neeranam said:

That sucks as that was a reason I was thinking of delaying. 

The point at which your pension will be frozen could depend on the date when you reached/will reach State Pension age:

https://www.gov.uk/deferring-state-pension/if-you-move-abroad

In the unlikely event of this being before 6 April 2016 you would be best advised to clarify the position with DWP. You can contact them via their online enquiry form:

https://secure.dwp.gov.uk/ipc/personal-details

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

just someone who believes that my country could be much better looking after its own affairs. 

.. and reigned over supremely by that heinous absolute monarch known as Queen Ursula of Europe from opulent palaces in Brussels and Strasbourg.

9 hours ago, Social Media said:

Harry has shown interest in obtaining American citizenship, although it's not currently a top priority for him.

So, sadly, no chance of being stripped of his British citizenship any time soon, then? ☹️

9 hours ago, Social Media said:

Despite this legal change, Harry still considers the UK his "home"

So still expecting to have his cake and eat it. No change there, then.