sysmaster

Reply from TRUE...

At Klong 5~6 only 1Mb is available...

This question goes to those who live north of BKK, more specifically Rangsit-Nakorn Nayok Road up to Tanya buri (Klong 6).

Since we are planning to move out there, it is important to know who is providing ADSL internet access and with what speeds, and of course the quality.

(it helps little when you get a 4Mb connection and rarely get more than 256 K bits out of it.)

Thanks in advance for all replies, it is highly appreciated

(if nothing reasonable is available there, we won't move there)

(I'm not asking the ISP's, since they are always selling the stars but deliver a lot less)

Sysmaster

I pick up my new car on Monday and still can't decide whethe rto go for the fuel inject LPG or NGV. dam_n this is hard. I plan on keeping the car for 3 years, and there are several NGV fueling stations near where I live..

If you live close to refueling stations, the only thing to consider is range.

Depending on your car expect between 150 and 250 km range at best.

The problem of LPG at the moment is price. It's still heavily subsidized, anyone's guess when they will let the price float.

Market price would be around the 20 Baht mark, still have of current petrol prices, but double of what LPG costs today...

I had the choice, but seeing those queue's at the NGV stations every day, the limited range of one tank filling and the 90Kg. empty tank weight set my decision to LPG.

As far as the price will go, the future will tell...

Looks like it, it's on the raise since Saturday.... let's see where it ends

Hopefully not at a level that we will be pleasing the environmentalists and

ALL switch to public transport....

LPg price has increased from 11.02 baht to 11.35 baht..............i guess it will go more high..

Since this also interest me, I did some digging in the www and found following link:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp...c013653&z=8

and

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp...49970152b0a3e86

in following article: http://www.fordfocusclub.com/forum/index.p...opic,780.0.html

The first Google map is apparently not containing all, the second map is more complete.

You will need Google Earth is you want to use the data in your computer, otherwise you have to check it

each time via the link on an on-line map.

disadvantage of the more complete second map is that all information is in Thai, the first map contains a certain amount of English references.

But at least now we have something to go on.

as for reference how an LPG station might look on Google maps: 13°42'30.79"N 100°32'35.17"E

This is a Lpg station on Nang Linchee road, "clearly?" recognizable is the storage tank(s) at the rear right

corner of the lot.

slightly off topic, does anyone know if s there a way of finding out where PTT have NGV pumps throughout thailand, internet???

This is a great question and I hope someone hits on it... a site that keeps updating where the lpg/ngv stations are. Then when considering a conversion you will have all the information you need to make an educated decision, plus when going on extended travel being able to print this list out and take it with you. I would be willing to build the site if I could get the information .... any thoughts on where this information might be obtained either in Thai or English.

Older bikes will certainly not like Gasohol, my steed ('93) is "grounded" due to Gasohol.

Fuel lines, gasket in the tank valve, and possibly some parts in the carbureter are

damaged.

Sorry, was on the wrong track....

and as far as using normal gas cylinders on a vehicle, not advisable, the wall thickness is to thin and will probably not survive a crash.

I was talking about converting common cooking gas cylinders at home vs. factory manufactured LPG tanks for cars, not toroids or motorcycles.

As I said earlier - it's like fitting a plastic canister instead of your petrol tank. Possible - yes, advisable?

I would certainly not say that this is a ploy to sell more expensive tanks, the local tanks are a lot cheaper than the imported toroid tanks.

"official" statements that I've heard until now are that toroid tanks are unsafe, that the gov. is afraid that local installers are incapable of properly installing toroids, and a few more excuses in that context.

an "unofficial" statement was that the ruling against toroids is only a market protection ploy, currently no TH tank manufacturer is producing toroids, but I think that when one of them manages to manufacture them the ban will be lifted.

I do admit that the use of toroid tanks in TH would be more dangerous than in EU, the general road conditions and the frequent use of speedbumps is all sizes and shapes pose a real danger for unprofessionally installed toroids.

Safety has always been an issue here, or better said the lack of it. Those who implement these home brew solutions are probably aware of the dangers, but the fact that they can save a few bucks will overrule the "fear factor".

Possible..... Yes, advisable..., in the context of how things tend to be done here, not really. And if they will really save a lot of money with driving a LPG converted motorcycle is questionable,

the extra weight and the limited capacity of the gas tanks will probably reduce the gained profit.

But as long as any profit/gain is possible, it will be done.

The only thing that happens here is that the powers declare it unsafe/should not be done/forbidden,

instead of putting some engineers/designers to it and make it feasible.

That's why they design LPG tanks for cars. Are you saying that all this "dangerous" thing is only a marketing ploy to sell more expensive tanks?

What they do "upcountry" to save costs is their business, they are not known for being great on safety, I wouldn't even think of following their "safe" practices that include driving without lights on the wrong side of the road.

I assumed the question was not really about "possible", but also "advisable". Lots of things are possible, technically speaking.

Lancashirelad,

In the context, "Life" tune up was me driving and the technician adjusting the GAS ECU.

This removes all little problems because he then adjusts "under load" conditions that are

quite different from just rev'ing the engine in the shop.

A bit dangerous as well, certainly when you're driving 120+++ and the ECU misunderstood

a programming sequence that causes the engine to die instantly..... you're then very happy that

you strapped yourself in..

And one tune up will certainly not last the life span of the car.

in continuation to my first posting, yesterday we went for a "life" tuning because the "static" tuning did not

solve all quirks, now there is almost no measurable difference in performance between gasoline and LPG.

The guy was slightly impressed about the performance of a 2.2 Zafira, he said that this was the first time that he did a life tuning on a Zafi, other Zafi customers seemed to be more gentle to their engine and did not require a life tuning.

I don't know how this last tuning is going to reflect on consumption, usage will show, specially the weight of my right foot.

sysmaster, just for clarity, did you mean live tune up? i.e. done on the move? Or life, i.e. 1 tune up will outlast the life of the vehicle?

"It is done occasionally" is probably the understatement of the year, up-country they are converting whatever gasoline driven vehicle to run on LPG or so.

Using household gas tanks is even more done than installing presumably safe tanks.

Also here in BKK I saw several motorbikes that where running LPG, from smaller

household gas bottles, one of them was a gas "supplier/deliverer" who apparently had

converted his whole "fleet" of delivery motorcycles.

A few months ago, there was an article of a boat operator who was running LPG....

from household gas bottles.

When I was at my installer, there was a disabled lottery sales guy on his "trike",

inquiring a possible conversion to LPG, and the technician said it would be no

problem at all. If it was finally done I don't know, since the price would probably

be a bit to steep for the guy, but in this country everything goes.

Technically speaking , there is no problem to convert motorcycles to LPG, only

some serious engineering should be done to develop a safe system.

The only thing that happens here is that the powers declare it unsafe/should not be done/forbidden,

instead of putting some engineers/designers to it and make it feasible. But as long as the installation

of toroid tanks on cars remains forbidden, not much will change, safe motorcycle tanks require a

bit of "out of the box" thinking.

in reply to the 3 questions:

1- NO, but with proper rigging and mounted in a safe zone of the car, it would be an alternative

2- apparently yes

3- probably yes, since LPG is filled in the bottle to a liquified state.

3a- does it have the same propane/butane mixture, I don't know, but probably yes since it has

already been demonstrated that it works (motorcycles e.d.)

Hopefully not a stupid question, but can a car/truck be fitted with the 'cooking gas' tanks??

It would take up a little more space, but would be much easier to replace when empty. Gas shops everywhere!!!

3 questions....

Would the cooking gas tanks be as safe as a fitted tank??

Would the cost/per ltr be the same as an LPG fill up??

Is the gas and pressure the same same?

It is done occasionally, last year a motorcylist blew up using a home made cooking gas conversion. Illegal of course, but that won't stop idiots.

Well Bubba,

As you may have noticed, I'm driving a Chevrolet Zafira, and do have some connections into Chevrolet....

Be it one of their service centers.

There seems to be more problems than pleasures with the NGV converted Optra's, this of course being an unofficial statement. So I advise your friend to think twice, if he is driving a 1.8L and the warranty would be void anyway, let him get a LPG conversion for 30 to 40 K. THB (hopefully you $60K was a typo).

---OT---

Basically car manufacturers should be called to court for their whole "warranty void" policy, by enforcing it they force buyers to keep running expensive fuels for at least 3 years after the purchase of the vehicle.

And believe me, all of them know exactly what kind of damage is to be expected depending on the alternative fuel used.

When Gasohol became the latest cry of this country, GM/Chevrolet was quick to assure that their cars where Gasohol compliant..... however the original manufacturer of the Zafira (Opel Germany) was not issuing a green light for the engines used in the Zafira's, not until March this year. So who do you have to believe.

(just something to think about)

--- OT end ---

Another tidbit: I have a friend with a Chevy Optra who contacted Chevrolet regarding an NGV conversion, since Chevrolet are now producing new Optras out of the factory with NGV. Chevrolet said that yes, they will do an NGV conversion at their service centres. They have certified NGV for their 1.6L engine and the warranty would not be voided for an NGV conversion with that engine. They can also do the conversion on the 1.8L engine, but the warranty would be voided (even done at the Chevy shop), because they have not "certified" the NGV conversion for that engine.

And the cost? Chevrolet told him about $60K.

The LPG ECU prohibits a engine start on LPG, however some brands have an undocumented bypass:

---contact off --- press and hold the button on the LPG control panel --- start the engine

Like I said "some", it does not work on mine, therefor my ECU is set to switch to LPG as soon as

both temperature sensors measure above 25 deg. Celsius. Thus averagely within a minute.

I know that's a bit early, but I can't detect any problems with it.

in continuation to my first posting, yesterday we went for a "life" tuning because the "static" tuning did not

solve all quirks, now there is almost no measurable difference in performance between gasoline and LPG.

The guy was slightly impressed about the performance of a 2.2 Zafira, he said that this was the first time that he did a life tuning on a Zafi, other Zafi customers seemed to be more gentle to their engine and did not require a life tuning.

I don't know how this last tuning is going to reflect on consumption, usage will show, specially the weight of my right foot.

Well, my injection system CAN't start on LPG, it needs a warm engine and fluids before it switches from petrol. On cold mornings it sometimes takes 1km driving.

Cheap vacuum systems are less demanding, I've seen taxis with a cold start.

I had the opportunity to see a forklift engine compartment on the inside yesterday.

Not that I would call this model "representative" but the LPG system on that one

was a fixed mixer with normal evaporator.

At least here in TH, I think that an LPG driven vehicle could start on LPG only,

seen the average daily temperatures, conditions should be good enough to

run LPG on a "cold" engine.

SM...

Next question: Fork LIft trucks. Gas engines, START & run on gas (propane?) How?

The idle running of my engine is the same for petrol and gas, no noticable difference.

The installation of a modern LPG/CNG system comes with a little control panel that is mounted on you dashboard, little: about 5/5 centimeters...

This panel has a few LED's and a button, two LED's that indicate if you are running on petrol or gas and four that give you an estimate of the remaining gas in your tank.

The button is used to manually switch between petrol and gas (if desired), its also used to confirm the "empty gas tank" warning buzzer.

As for forklifts, no idea.. two options: electric heater on the vaporizer or maybe even an LPI system that does not require a vaporizer anymore.

SM...

thanks sysmaster for that, as a clear and easily understood explanation of the workings of the modern ECU controlled LPG system.

I knew modern systems were auto switch over.....other posters thinking of older systems with manual switching take note.

I also knew the switch point was generally temperature controlled....... though interesting it can obviously be set so that it always idles (smoother?) on petrol.

Is there still a manual switch fitted aswell or not?

Is there any warning device so you know what fuel its running on?

My last LPG powered vehicle was a 1960 Land Rover in the early/mid 80's. Its still down the bottom of the workshop somewhere.

Was an old fashioned single point manually switched system never right for 2 minutes at a time. Forever cutting out at the traffic lights & refusing to go again!

Next question: Fork LIft trucks. Gas engines, START & run on gas (propane?) How?

Hi all, new here but not new in the country...

LPG conversions.. I had my Chevy Zafira done last week.

Paid 31,000 THB for a 4 cylinder BSM "Bardolino" installation (multipoint injection).

Originally it should have been an "EasyJet" from Autogas Italia, but apparently that system does not work well with the fuel injectors of the 2.2 Zafira's.

Installation was done at P.S. Pornsak on On Nut Road website http://www.ps-pornsak.com.

These guy's are already in the LPG business for 25 years and it's a big place (small facade though).

Pricing goes from around 20K for a fixed mixer to about 40K for multipoint injections.

Business is brisk, average waiting list is 50 cars before you, if you are lucky you get your car back in 48H., mine took 4 day's also due to having a Sunday in between...

None of the technicians there speaks English but at least two of the secretaries do and act as interpreters.

While installing the conversion on my car the lost about 4 hours on the last day because they managed to trip the anti theft device and could no longer start the engine... took them several phone calls to Chevrolet to get that going again.

Installation is done professionally, I'm an industrial Engineer and can evaluate crappy work, this wasn't.

There was a minor problem after the installation, the day after, I drove of (cold) and it took until the car hat reached full temperature before the system switched to LPG, went back and they found that the temperature censor on the regulator was bad, replaced it and everything is fine now.

Engine runs fine, but still doesn't like my "kick-downs" to much, this is not going to be forever, the next tune up will be "life", technician with computer calibrating the ECU while I'm driving.

The package from them comes with free service, one year warranty, a 250,000 THB insurance policy to cover any damage caused by the LPG conversion to your car (engine).

One thing that pleased me very much on this installation is that the "greaser-kit" is automatically installed as well. this is a small tank containing "Flashlube", this lube is mixed into your gas as a lubricant for your cylinder valves, to compensate for lack of "natural" greasing that occurs when driving on gasoline. My advice is that where ever you have your LPG conversion done, make sure this kit is included.

And now the technicals, since I've seen some questions here.

ECU: Multipoint injector systems come with their own additional ECU, this installed as a "slave" to the car's ECU, your car ECU is not modified at all, the "slave" is doing the work.

The "slave" will gather information from the gas tank, regulator, engine temperature to determine when it can switch over to LPG, this can be set to any condition, except the initial start, this is on gasoline. Conditions like switching to LPG after you have rev'ed up you engine to 3000 rev's or so are optional.

The gas injectors get their commands from the original injectors of your car, the firing signal from the car's ECU is passed on to the "slave", on gasoline this is then simply passed on (or ignored since your gas system is shut off). In LPG mode the "slave" will then block the signal to the gasoline injector and fire the gas injector, this with whatever timing adjustment required to achieve the same performance (or close to that).

The tuning of the Gas ECU is fairly simple (initially), the software on the PC will interact with the ECU and gather all engine (running) data and timings in petrol mode, then adjust the gas system to match it as close as possible. After programming these adjustments into to gas ECU, you can basically drive of.

This initial setup will do for the first few 100 KM, this until all components have settled in...

The second tuning is to remove the little quirks, maybe after that a third tune-up is required, but that should do it.

The modern Gas ECU's (depending on brand) are designed to fix even the most crazy conditions, gas valve timings can be adjusted withing the whole rev range of your engine, creating a so-called MAP, this is then stored in the ECU.

As to the performance of LPG cars, a well tuned system will give you about 95% of your gasoline condition, consumption will be higher, but as long as you are still paying less per mile/KM than on gasoline, that should not be the biggest concern.

By the way, not that I have seen them in TH yet, but there are quite some "Turbo's" in EU that run on LPG...

And last, if you want a LPG installation that will give you 100% equal performance/consumption match to your gasoline "mode", go for a LPI system, this is a liquid gas injection system, meaning that the gas is no longer vaporized but injected as liquid. I don't know if any company in TH is selling them yet and I fear that they will cost a lot more.

SM...