WinnieTheKhwai

There are some in the elite who would like to see the Dems disbanded as the politcal mess created by having every politcal party disolved would create opportunites for politcal "reform" of a style they may like.

Such as doing away with elections altogether perhaps. All those uneducated people shouldn't be voting for anything important.

Gentleman, You can question the legitimacy of the Shinawatra government all you want but the facts are the facts. PM Shinawatra was the democratically elected Prime Minister of Thailand from 2001 until 2006 when he was illegally and unconstitutionally overthrown by the Thai Military. Until that time he was the leader of the TRT party and thus the Thai government and people. You wanted help on the history of the election results? Thai Rak Thai won 248 seats in parliament (more than any other party previously) Thaksin opted for a broad coalition, assimilating both the Chart Thai Party (forty-one seats) and the New Aspiration Party (thirty-six seats) as well as absorbing the smaller Seritham Party (fourteen). Thaksin succeeded in assuming a dominant position in almost every aspect of party politics and government. His cabinet became the first democratically elected government in Thailand's history that survived a full legislative term. Contrary to the unstable multi-party coalition cabinets of the pre- and post Thaksin era, his government provided political continuity. You try to cast doubt on his sweeping win and mandate and question that he won decisively? His re-election in 2005 had the highest voter turnout in Thai history. I am just stating the facts I am not praising him. It wouldn't be allowed on this or any other web site in Thailand. The fact that it's ok to denigrate and criticize Thaksin but not ok to offer supporting information speaks volumes in an of itself. There is nothing I need to add.

And how does that stop him from being guilty?

Red Shirts contend that it's meaningless to be guilty under coup laws that were engineered primarily to grab power away from the people.

Again:

And how does that stop him from being guilty?

Huh!? My response addressed that: If I make an arbitrary law that says you're guilty if you have more than 2 lines in your signature then from that point on you're guilty of that law. I thought that was obvious. So in that sense Mr. Thaksin is very much guilty as charged under coup laws and as prosecuted at the behest of the junta and the subsequent government they helped establish by banning all previous governments on frivolous charges such as the PM appearing on a TV cooking show. So: 'guilty as charged', for whatever it's worth!

Bloomberg reports that ...When appointed foreign minister in 1994, Thaksin disclosed that he and his wife were worth 60 billion baht -- $2.4 billion at the time. The couple transferred their Shin Corp. stake to their children and relatives before he became prime minister.

Shin shares gained 168 percent from when Thaksin was elected in January 2001 to when his family sold the company in January 2006, compared with a 161 percent gain in the benchmark SET index, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Siam Cement Pcl, Thailand's fourth-biggest company gained 733 percent in that time. It just doesn't appear that the Shin Corp. investment during that time generated an unreasonable return, to me. The whole market went up including cell phone companies.

Indeed. And besides, he had to transfer ownership because Thai law stipulates this for a prime minister. Some people make it sound like it's some kind of evil scheme.

Gentleman, You can question the legitimacy of the Shinawatra government all you want but the facts are the facts. PM Shinawatra was the democratically elected Prime Minister of Thailand from 2001 until 2006 when he was illegally and unconstitutionally overthrown by the Thai Military. Until that time he was the leader of the TRT party and thus the Thai government and people. You wanted help on the history of the election results? Thai Rak Thai won 248 seats in parliament (more than any other party previously) Thaksin opted for a broad coalition, assimilating both the Chart Thai Party (forty-one seats) and the New Aspiration Party (thirty-six seats) as well as absorbing the smaller Seritham Party (fourteen). Thaksin succeeded in assuming a dominant position in almost every aspect of party politics and government. His cabinet became the first democratically elected government in Thailand's history that survived a full legislative term. Contrary to the unstable multi-party coalition cabinets of the pre- and post Thaksin era, his government provided political continuity. You try to cast doubt on his sweeping win and mandate and question that he won decisively? His re-election in 2005 had the highest voter turnout in Thai history. I am just stating the facts I am not praising him. It wouldn't be allowed on this or any other web site in Thailand. The fact that it's ok to denigrate and criticize Thaksin but not ok to offer supporting information speaks volumes in an of itself. There is nothing I need to add.

And how does that stop him from being guilty?

Red Shirts contend that it's meaningless to be guilty under coup laws that were engineered primarily to grab power away from the people.

See my other post on this. It does not refer to financial wealth directly. Thaksin himself uses the phrase 'military-bureaucratic elite' when talking about the powers opposing democracy. That's what people mean with elite. Feel free to suggest a better term.

Nice of you by the way to completely ignore his points but agitage against verbiage. And even that without expressing why you find fault with the word! If you're doing a post without saying anything, why bother at all?

Ah -- so you are in fact commiting contempt of court by suggesting that courts have been suborned? or am I missing something?

I'm not committing anything of the sort, simply suggesting you research the topic mentioned.

Incidentally the mods are well aware of those who try to lure members into breaking forum rules.At least one member has been banned for it.

You, not me. made the statement about Thai courts. I know you know the rules and gave you an out. If you don't want to be asked specifics I would suggest that you NOT imply that the courts have been suborned.

Sorry I'm not prepared to continue this discussion openly.I have registered a polite warning and that as far as I'm concerned is the end of the subject.

Good response. It's too bad, but open discussion can only go so far and I think we've reached the limits.

He should be jailed !!

Wonder why are these Red Shirts people so stupid ? Don't they accept the fact that he was a criminal ? This is where I don't understand.

Ah, I can answer that for you. (Because I have some red-leaning friends, and I read some of the websites, Facebook groups, as well as unbiased international news sources.)

Right, they don't accept that he was a criminal. Shrewd businessman: absolutely, that was the reason they voted for him in the first place, the widely touted CEO style leadership. They basically like what he did for the Thai economy, they liked that he was tough on drugs/vice, and most of all they like that he was the first politician to help the rural poor. That never happened before; if you were poor and got sick, you better be lucky. Thaksin made the first moves towards universal affordable healthcare. (Flawed as it was IMHO, but your question was why the Reds like him, so that's the question I'm answering).

What are these red shirts fighting for ? Arn't they happy that this culprit is gone and some money has been returned to the country ? Unless they think those money should go to their own pockets ?

There's a wide variety of goals; it's not a very homogeneous movement to be honest. Many just want Thaksin back as PM. Others have bigger goals that relate to constitutional issues and introducing democracy to Thailand. Others are socialists. Others are idiot loud-mouths.

Good on the Reds, if they disagree with the verdict they should by all means fight for what they believe.

Yes, it's called freedom of expression and freedom of assembly. Remarkable how many educated foreigners find fault with basic freedoms.

So much liberal trotting out of this term "elite" really does get boring.

Conveniently vague and massively simplistic. saai.gif

And now apparently "elite" includes the middle class taxpayers....

We all know how the people who actually pay taxes tend to feel about "distribution of wealth" when it comes out of the class that pays the majority of taxes.

"Elite" is the most abused word on this forum in my opinion. Conspiracy theorists trot it out at the drop of the proverbial tin-hat. Then never can define the word to their own or anyone else's satisfaction. They talk about the "people vs. the elite" and then duck and run when someone points out that the leaders of the "people's" movement are all elite.

It's not over-used. I challenge you to find a better term. Thaksin himself in interviews calls the main powers who oppose democracy the "military-bureaucratic elites". I'll stick with that.

Furthermore it avoids naming individual people, which is frowned upon in the pretty draconian libel laws and less draconian but equally hard rules for this site that we all signed up to. So like it or not, you'll be seeing the word elite a lot more. It does not merely mean 'wealthy people'. As you rightly pointed out, the Shinawatra family would very much be part of the elite in it's usual definition. Again, if you don't like this double usage, then feel free to come up with a better term. (Personally I'm willing to settle for 'military-bureaucratic establishment' if the word elite rubs you the wrong way. The word doesn't really matter, what matters is that you know what I mean.)

Which countries do you know of that allow unrestricted access to military areas?

It may be similar to the Wing 41 road in Chiang Mai, a VERY convenient road that however goes straight through the airforce base. Thais and foreigners alike can use it BUT you need to apply for a special tag and put this on your windshield. No tag, no entry.

All he has to do is wait for a more favorable set of parties to finally be allowed to form a government. Then there will be a log of wiggle room.

^Abhisit isnt running the govt, and I think you know this.

^Abhisit is running the govt, and I think you know this.

:-) and Brit is still stuck with one liners trying to stir the pot ......

So IS he or ISN'T Abhisit running the government, Brit ?

Allow me to sit in the middle: He's running the government. The issue may be though that the government (or parliament) isn't running the country. They're allowed to take care of the day-to-day.

The ones voting "no" either are tourists who don't have a motor vehicle, or ex-pats living in Bangkok.

( Cleaning up the Phuket taxi mafia may work wonders here as well, when affordable public transport would be available. )

Op, be aware that Thanon Pra Pok Klao runs between both gates: Chang Puak Gate in the north and Chiang Mai Gate in the south. Thapae Gate is in the east. Hope you eventually get to indulge in your noodles.

Yes !! Someone confirmed that it's Ong Tipparot.

Isn't their food much better than most of thoise mentioned in Lousy Planner Guidebook ?

They do booming business, and it's an excellent late-night option. Aside from the pork bone soup, the small fish-ball look chin are a main characteristic.

They will likely be open during the Songkran period, evenings only.

To end the location confusion, it's inside the old town, just South of Chang Phuak gate. It's next to Pop Am restaurant, here:

Please put an end to the misery and close this thread!

Why? It's no worse than your average burger or fish & chips topic.

LOL.. I was out last night. It was actually really busy getting into town, bit of a traffic jam around Airport Plaza.

I met some of my Red Shirt friends as well. The mood was one of disappointment and sadness. (Not sure what they were expecting. )

Turned into a good night though, when talking about elections they asked me if I could vote, having been here for such a long time. Told them I couldn't, of course, not being a Thai citizen. Also told them "doesn't matter that much though does it? It's not like the people's votes count for something in this country?" I mean when a PM can be thrown out by the military-bureaucratic elite for as much as being on a TV cooking show..

Then I moved on to a couple Lao Khao shots with SangSom-Coke chasers so it got a bit blurry after that.

As important as trusting her is her trusting you. Against common sense and all indications to the contrary.

Country remains roughly split down the middle. You don't notice it so much because almost all the media is in one camp, and/or practicing self-censorship.

It doesn't really matter though because power doesn't sit with parliament or elected government in this country. Your question would be more relevant in a democracy.

Update: I took 9 mintutes to get from Thapae all the way to Samoeng intersection, 8km out of town. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Most aren't ignorant at all. I agree with many of their causes.

Deal. It'll be Makro cheese at 350 baht/kg though.

Or, we could switch, I have a reasonable Chateauneuf left at home; if you can source some nice cheeses then that might work..

Normal == Thapae to Samoeng Intersection in 11 minutes.

Can I have some cheese with your whine?

They should use it to develop the poorer regions of the country.. Education, business & industry development.

This being Thialand however, and this being as corrupt a government as any, I guess there are many parties lining up at the trough. Might be epic.

Um, look at a calendar. Were you here last year? And the year before that, etc?

This is the weather this time of the year. Some days are a bit better some are a bit worse. Most of the bad days are typically in March. If you can't deal with it, it's not going to get better before end of March, so.. good time to visit Pattaya.

(Guess we're clocking up yet another redundant topic on this.. It's all been said last, year, and the year before that, etc. Do a search.)

I'm downtown and will be going home outside the city center later tonight.. Don't notice anything out of the ordinary.

(I would kind of welcome a "forced" stay around the Thapae area to be honest, but so far it looks like business as normal. )

Given the rules set out at the start of the topic, I'm afraid I'm unable to contribute..

I hope one day democracy will be established in Thailand.

Good night everyone!!