WinnieTheKhwai

hey guys, big red shirt protest this evening on Pahonyothin Road, at 11:00 p.m. Was leaving Central Lad Prao and had to uturn because road was blocked up to Ratchadapisak. Lots and lots of cops and protesters out. Of course, nothing on the news or anywhere else.

I'm thinking George should set up a protest alert thread we can add to when something like this happens. Was scary, lots of yelling and loudspeakers,,,,,very chaotic too.

A lot of noise is typical for any political rally in Thailand on any side. Not necessarily scary because it's noisy; we get stage rallies by the Reds a lot in and around Chiang Mai. It's usually a lot of yelling, some music, then more yelling, etc. From watching ASTV before the PAD rallies were pretty similar.

Anyway, this from the UDD about the March 12 protest. ( It's a press release so I hope that's appropriate for the News Clippings forum; if not then let me know. It does seem to provide some insight into their intentions at the high level.)

A MESSAGE TO THE GOOD PEOPLE OF BANGKOK

On Friday the 12th of March, a campaign aimed at ending the age of the Thai military dictatorship and restoring freedom, democracy and justice to our beautiful nation will begin. At this very moment, hundreds of thousands of people from all across our country not already in Bangkok are preparing to make their way to the capital, in defiance of a regime that has proven its willingness to commit violence and strip away the human rights of those who speak against it.

These people have peace in their hearts, but change also. Some wear red shirts, and some do not. Some of them march in support of a democratically elected leader who, for good or evil, was brought down by design of the military, not the will of the people. And yet others come too, some of whom used to wear yellow, who marched against what they perceived to be an authoritarian regime but have since witnessed far worse injustices.

These people are united by a few key beliefs. The belief in our constitutional monarchy. The belief in the power of non-violent change. The belief in double-standards-free justice. And the belief that, as Thai citizens, they deserve to have their voices heard and their concerns addressed. These people are united under the banner of the United front for Democracy against Dictatorship, or the UDD. And they are not to be feared- because if you believe in these things, then you are one of them as well.

This campaign will be the largest ever seen in Thai history. It is aimed at forcing the Abhisit regime (and the shadow government that supports it) to recognise what they are doing to our country and respond by dissolving parliament and calling for free and fair, internationally monitored elections- nothing more, nothing less. You might be forgiven for your scepticism that a non-violent campaign could achieve what we are seeking, but I would ask you to consider how the Indian nation was born. It was thanks to a peaceful struggle led by a man called Mahatma Gandhi, and was successful in liberating the Indian nation from the rule of the British Empire.

We are convinced that for the coming struggle we need no guns, bullets or blades, but only solidarity and sincerity in our hearts. We have learned from the mistakes of the past, and will allow no repeat of them. We will stand together, we will remain vigilant against troublemakers, and we will take care to ensure that no foreigner is harmed or intimidated. We will stare defiantly down the barrels of the guns of the soldiers who remain loyal to the men who wish us to remain silent and submissive, and we will embrace with open arms those who wish to put down their weapons and join us. We will make the Abhisit government make a final choice between democracy and dictatorship.

The junta knows that it will not survive a fair election, and it fears our demands, and wants you to fear us too. It wants you to ignore us, prevent us, or worse- stand by as we are arrested or cut down for exercising our democratic rights. But you should not. Because beneath every red shirt is a Thai citizen, and within their chests beats a heart that, like every other Thai, wants prosperity, wants freedom, wants respect and wants to see Thailand become the nation its citizens deserve.

On the 12th of March, the peaceful struggle for Thailand’s future will begin. The UDD calls for every person in Bangkok who has realised what our nation is in danger of becoming to welcome us as friends, to come onto the street and to join us in our call for change in Thailand.

(Source: UDD Facebook group - http://www.facebook.com/UDDThailand?v=app_2347471856 )

^ I really hope you're wrong.. Last year around Songkran they tried creating a mess, and that pretty much back-fired. I think a sustained but peaceful effort leading up to the next elections (whenever those come about) is better. But then that's me. Anyway I'll be in Bangkok so I may get to see it up close.

This trivial bit of history changes everything? Yes, Rainman, more correctly, should have said. 'He was ousted by the military elite. The big picture remains the same, even if the time line is not accurately depicted. First, he was pushed to resign, at that point he was democratically elected. The coup was to thwart his plans to run in reelections, because they knew he would be democratically reelected.

I'm not a fan of Thaksin OR his old pal Sondhi, but I don't understand what picture you are painting.

Are you implying that Thaksin had happily left office? Are you deducting the coup had nothing to do with his political aspirations? If this is not your concept, you are SPLIITTING HAIRS. You arguing it was not bull poop, that it was cow poop. What is the difference?

So in the future, when somone says Thaksin was pushed out, let's all realise it refers to that he pushed then barred. It boils down to same cup of soup.

He was democratically elected when these events transpired, just as there are, PRESENTLY, 111 democratically elected members who are 'banned' from representing the people who elected them. The elections, with some bribery and skullduggery, on all sides, were still recognized as fair elections by foreign auditors.

Connect these dots. Ban 111 elected members. Resentment, protests and violence. 27 countries create travel warnings, not advisories, about visiting Thailand. [levels 1 to 3, on a scale whereby 5 is a ban]

If you Reply with, 'Are you saying the actions of the Military elite, in the way they are dealing with the red movement, has led to travel warnings?' my answer is 'duh' YES

Great post!! All it does is make the bickering more excruciating; surely most of us can agree at least on some of the basics.

Also, it's harder for the army to shoot at monks as opposed to other protesters, like they did during Black Songkran. Monks might help to keep things peaceful (on both sides), and keep people alive.

Another classic item of revisionist history brought to us by the good people of Truth Today. Oy vey, and he says he ain't a red!

It may indeed be a red shirt tactic to CREATE an incident where monks get hurt to incite public support for their side. A similar thing is done by terrorists in the middle east by centering military operations among civilians and mosques.

I concur on all of Jings points.

Seriously? Again it's an allegation that's not based on anything other than an assumption based on a pre-existing mindset. I strongly suspect it goes something like this:

"Terrorists in the Middle East are evil and do X. I think the Reds are evil. Therefore the Reds are likely to do X, beware!".

I'm personally getting to the point of skipping through those posts because there's just no meat in there, just conjecture.

hmmm... as 9 of 10 of the Replies pointed out, in this day and age, race should not be a factor.

Look Who's Coming to Dinner was a movie for the times, decades ago!

Participation in the Poll cannot be completed without making a decision based on race, so you will have a difficult time explaining how you 'do not see it as racism' !?

I think when a moderator gets around to viewing this Topic, they will cross reference it to the Rules.

I hope my daughter ends up with a very nice citizen of the planet Earth!

Sorry, but I think it's a stretch to call "Westerner" a race. As if all Westerners are of a single race? A Westerner of African or Asian ancestry is still a Westerner. Quite obviously it's the cultural background that's relevant here, but let me hasten to confirm this since you raised the issue. Going by your logic, debating every single cultural feature that's unique to Thailand would be racism when debated vis a vis a Western/"Farang" background / culture? Actually I struggle to even call 'Thai' a race; it's a nationality. (And no, I don't want to go there in this topic beyond pointing out that there are Thais from various backgrounds such as Chinese, Khmer, Lao, Malay, and various hilltribes.)

And then, you're from Canada, possibly THE most ethnically diverse country in the world. I would not hesitate for a second to include every single Canadian as Western. I hope that goes some way to put the challenge to bed. Either way the "It doesn't matter to me" option seems the appropriate one for people who don't want to make a cultural-background-based decision.

( I apologize if the tone of this post is overly combative, but getting accused of racism is upsetting to me. )

I want my daughter to marry a westerner,not German or French, to get a big sinsot.

Want my lad to marry a westerner so I won't have to pay sinsot.

Seriously? That's the second sin sod comment I read.. Could be another interesting poll: how many people would welcome (or demand) a sin sod for their daughter..

Funny to see all the anti monk comments suddenly. It's not even the first time monks join in political rallies, Chamlongs anti-alcohol / anti-ThaiBev actions come to mind. Didn't seem to bother anyone then did it?

^ That'd be 'room' then, as in cave rooms.

Either way, I'm sure the OP can get it converted to standard Thai units. In the end the land office will do the transfer, and land papers still go in tarang wa and rai. So I don't really see the issue, other than when informally talking about land.

it's a significant development, if the monks do join in the rally. They migh tip off the change not by numbers, but by giving a moral support to the cause.

Also, it's harder for the army to shoot at monks as opposed to other protesters, like they did during Black Songkran. Monks might help to keep things peaceful (on both sides), and keep people alive.

You forgot the choice of "a nice, responsible, loving and considerate person of any origin". That's all that matters to me everything else is subjective.

Good comment, also made by others.

No, I didn't forget it. I consciously left it out.

I originally had the 'It doesn't matter to me' option to include an 'as long as he's a good guy and they love each other' but felt that stating such a sweeping 'feel good' option would sway people's gut feelings towards the politically and morally most correct option. I'm going for gut feel in this poll.

However note that the 'doesn't matter' option remains the closest choice to what you stated. It's what I voted myself.

How can there be an Irish pub without Guinness? It hurts, it really hurts.

I think the Irish Pub (Ratwithee Rd) didn't serve Guiness (esp. on tap) for the larger part of it's existence?

Anyway, I don't drink beer, but I feel your pain. I imagine it must feel something like when Sangthip disappeared.

Quite a few people have mixed kids.. Wonder what people's views on this are. I realize I omitted any gay options, apologies in advance if someone feels left out.

Another interesting question that I'd like to tag along: If you have grown up mixed Thai/Western kids, do they tend to date Thais, Foreigners or other mixed kids?

Take the Roong Ruang bus. (Pretty much the first ticket booth). They have regular and Motorway buses, but the difference out of Ekamai isn't that great, you often get stuck on Sukhumvit.

Don't ever get stuck on one of the local buses that stop everywhere. What should be a < 2 hour trip can turn into double that.

The direct service from the airport also deserves special mention; very convenient when flying in or out of Bangkok.

I'd say the levels are consistent with what you see out there. When you get above 100 then you really don't see the mountain anymore, not even the outline.

From my own experience I've always been treated with the utmost respect by Thais. Be it real or feigned I don't know or really don't care. That's human nature. It's definitely a case of treat others as you'd expect to be treated yourself and that usually works in spades with the locals, from the lads who empty my septic tank to the head of the local Chamber of Commerce and all round rich as shit bloke.

Of course I could be like the foreigner I had the misfortune to be in the vicinity of in my local 7-11. Leaning across the counter shouting "CIGARETTES! CIGARETTES!" with a contemptuous look on his face before storming out muttering about "F#cking monkeys"

Or the foreigner I spied in an open air pub blaring out to the waiter " ,Oi! You! CHANG CHOP CHOP!"

They most probably think Thais don't like westerners. In their cases they were right. I didn't like the c#nts either and it wouldn't matter if they were in Bangkok, Bogota or Brighton..

More excellent comments from MCA!! Couldn't have said it better.

I go to one woman who is about 50 and does medicinal massage. I have known her for a while and she is unusually good and kind and honest. The other day, my change was dropping out of my pocket as she massaged me and she seemed really puzzled when I told her to leave it there until we finished. She told me that most farangs are afraid that she will steal it and if she tries to pick it up to give it to them, sometimes they will actually grab it out of her hand.

These people put up with a lot from some of us and can usually smile about it.

Yup. And I for one am able to smile with most people about such things, instead of seeing anything less than a smile when faced with such idiots as 'them' hating 'us'.

To be honest I have about as much in common with most Thais that I meet as I do with most foreigners and perhaps more so. (Lived almost my whole adult life in Thailand, I share most Thais' taste in music, food, religion (to a degree) and so on. I tend to perceive things similarly to many Thais (especially those I know and hang out with). I know this is going to get a response from some forum members, likely some disparaging comment about 'going native'.. I don't see it as 'going native' though, or rather, I see assimilating to some degree as a natural process; it'd be much harder to rigidly remain 'foreign'. And even this most forum members will dispute, saying that a foreigner will never assimilate. To some degree that'd be true, but that moment when actually interacting with people and them realizing we're not so different is priceless every time. And that happens ESPECIALLY in tourist areas where people don't know me. Ok, shoot.

So is March 12 a day to stay out of Bangkok for an out-of-towner? I was planning on coming in for the day.

Me too.

QUOTE (Oneman @ 2010-03-04 15:13:54) *

Foreigners who can speak the language sufficiently to have an adult conversation with Thais, quickly learn that they despise us, most of us...

Oh - what absolute rubbish............

I usually agree with your posts, maizefarmer; but I disagree here.

As with any language you can usually understand the nuances of their culture only by speaking the language.

I would assume that the rubbish part referred to learning that 'Thais despise us', not the merits of learning the language! That almost goes without saying; to me anyway.

??? What a puzzling response. And I have no idea what you mean with a trailer. You must have me confused with someone else.

So on that assumption, I'll let the earlier remark on where I am most comfortable slide as it's aimed at someone you may know.

"trailer" --- US for what the UK refers to as a Caravan (I think). The "lower end" of society in those 2 countries.

Oh.. I see. I don't think I feel the need to point out to him where I live, how I live, etc. (I love spending time in the more lower class areas on occasion, but am happy to have the choice. The reason I enjoy this is because I love the whole of Thailand, the lot of it at all levels. (I also don't find much difference in the overall perception of foreigners between the various levels of society, at least none that would universally apply. So any further discussion would likely remain off topic. )

To be perfectly frank most of the westerners I've run in to who say Thais don't like us are usually quite deserving of that dislike.

And that, I think, is the most accurate and concise response I've seen in this topic to date!

??? What a puzzling response. And I have no idea what you mean with a trailer. You must have me confused with someone else.

So on that assumption, I'll let the earlier remark on where I am most comfortable slide as it's aimed at someone you may know.

Congratulations on the twins I am sure you have your hands full

I do not know whether nanny is an occupation permitted for foreign nationals.

It is when they're Burmese or non-Thai hilltribe and have the appropriate permissions. As an aside, even if nanny isn't allowed, there is some leeway in the job title. So while you may find that housekeeper or nanny isn't allowed, it's likely that things like children's teacher is allowed. Then all you need to do is get her some paperwork that says that she is that, such as by sending her on a course of something or another that roughly fits.

Could it be that they are given/helped with a work permit? I believe you must have one to do even volunteer work as I have known people who have given up their time to work free for a radio only to be told that they need a work permit!

Or is it another case of duel standards in LoS?

It's the latter. Not that there has to be wrong with the arrangement per se. But a work permit is tied to a particular job and a particular location. Having a work permit to be a computer programmer in Laem Chabang doesn't mean you can then take any other job on the side, paid or not. anyway that's the law. (Pretty much worth the same as the pixels in this paragraph while on, but that's another topic)

I have personally done work for government agencies without a work permit as well. We can leave it that there's considerable leeway and flexibility in rules and regulations in this country, and to be honest that may be in part why we like it so much.

Ok so people come here for 2 or 3 weeks on holiday some come for longer. They stay in nice hotels and eat at the nice resturants. They say the people in Thailand are so friendly and always smiling. Yes they are right becuase this is what they see from there 2 or 3 weeks here. The thai people they meet in the hotels and resturants, lets not forget are paid to smile and be friendly. Like any other country in the world where people work in these jobs.

What i dont get is people who have lived here a couple of years keep calling it the land of smiles. I have been here a good while myself and i know what the real thailand is like. People here in general are no more friendly ( i think they are less friendly towards farangs ) than in most other countrys i have been. So why do people who have lived here a long time just fail to see what the real thailand is like. For us farangs who can speak thai and understand we no deep down that the ' land of smiles ' is just a myth. Farangs are never far away from racism of some sort or being ripped off . So how is this the land of smiles ? I like to think it is the land of fake smiles. Is it people who have lived here a long time no deep down that thailand is not what they thought it would be, but they just try to block it out and convince themselfs that thai people are really friendly, when they no its not ture. One thing i will say is that thailand is less violent than most western countrys. But as for being a friendly place its just a myth, that some farang's wont give up on no matter how many times racism is directed at them or how many times they get ripped off and charged double the price thais get charged .

So is this really the land of smiles ???

I think you are a stage that I have been through - happened to me after about 5 years living here. It had a lot to do with learning the language and still hanging out a bit in touristy areas, hearing all the negative stuff. I had a choice - to accept the negatives of Thailand and enjoy the positives or go insane trying to change Thai culture and having a shitty attitude. Acceptance was the key, which changed my attitude and made me smile more at the Thais which they nearly always reciprocate. You will change and Thais will see this change in your attitude/body language and you'll change your mind about the Thai people. It really is the land of smiles - you'll get to know what all the different smiles mean and find you are smiling all the time whther it be a contented smile or a pissed off smile.

My approach is slightly different, because I *ALSO* still very much enjoy the tourist areas, including Pattaya. Also in tourist areas, I don't experience any negativity aimed at me. I do hear some observations on the foreign tourists and residents in Pattaya and you know what: I can't help but agree with many of those assessments. And in the ensuing discussion I wouldn't only agree, but be able to weigh in with some more observations that likely wouldn't all be positive ones.

Because someone as an opinion of a particular demographic, (often a correct opinion I might add that's vented on this forum by foreigners just the same) shouldn't mean that you should apply it to yourself when you clearly don't fit that demographic. (Or, perhaps to an extent it DOES apply to me, in which cases I'd be happy to acknowledge it).

I find those discussions very interesting. That's why I still find tourist areas so interesting and entertaining. No way would I want to live in such an environment all the time, I know I am still maintaining a very positive outlook also in tourist areas. I have a harder time in Bangkok (tourist area or not) but I know that's mostly me.