WinnieTheKhwai

Ok, I'll bite. What did Thaksin do to make any long term changes to the way the poor in general, and Isaan poor in particular, are treated? He had five years of complete control, so surely he made some real changes?

Ok: ASK THE PEOPLE who voted for him. Please don't take my word for it. I learned recently that some of the Thaksin-obsessed on this forum can barely order a beer in Thai, so what hope is there to learn viewpoints different than what the Bangkok media tries to feed us.. As much as I like to (and in fact often do) debate the merits and failures of the Thaksin governments, what matters at the end of the day is how many people like what they saw and support and vote for those guys. I don't even agree with half of what Thaksin did, but I do respect Thais enough to acknowledge that they need and deserve democracy (however fragile and imperfect) more than coups and meddling from extrademocratic factions.

But I'm asking you. You're the one posting here, making the claims that the Democrats are interested in keeping the people poor, while the reds want to educate them. The Thais deserve democracy, although some would say you get the government you deserve, they don't deserve to be fooled by a thieving, cheating criminal. As the reds stated aim is to bring down the current government, as they are supported by the PTP, and as the PTP's stated aim is to bring Thaksin back as PM, no one claiming to be pro democracy can seriously say they support what the reds are trying to do. Bringing back a corrupt PM who stole from his country, no matter how he was removed from office, is not democracy.

They would disagree with that assessment. What's important to them is that he's the first guy to come along and take them seriously. I find it hard to blame them for being thankful for that.

Any democratic leaning reds are swamped by the Thaksin group. Surely any true democratic leaning reds would have seen what the movement was really about and would have formed their own by now.

Yes, and this is the reason I wouldn't ever say that I support the Reds universally. I've challenged some guys in the Red movement pretty much with this line but their point of view tends to be that if they don't speak out against the current establishment, then nothing will every change. So in the short term they're very prepared to jump on the Thaksin bandwagon. I would personally disagree however, I think their time will come no matter what, and that efforts should be better spent on preparing for the next election whenever it comes. They would need to build another large coalition the way Thaksin did with the TRT party. There are far too many cracks at the moment, and one of those cracks (the bribing of the Newin faction) led to the current government. Newin by the way who would be every bit as guilty of misuse of power as everyone else in Thai politicis, both in previous governments as well as the current one.

Thaksin was taking Thailand into authoritarian rule as a corporatist. The King wisely endorsed the peaceful coup at the last minute, before Thaksin cemented his power. This was a crisis of democracy and extroardinary measures were required.

I'm happy at least that you state this so openly and blatantly.

Thaksin initially did some good things to manipulate public opinion and he tossed crumbs from his banquet table to the hungry.

Agree with that as well. In doing so he, perhaps somewhat unintentionally, awakened a belief among the rural poor that they can have and should have a meaningful voice in how the country is run. History may show that this was the moment that people started to move away from the old dinosaur politics where regional clans bought support, in favor of more issues-based campaigning. The coup put a hard stop to that, but didn't put those feelings to bed.

IMHO; those that still support this man are the types that are uncomfortable with the freedoms of messy democracy. Some are more comfortable inside a train that is forced to travel only on tracks laid by others.

Reading Red leaning blogs, groups and talking to people, I don't get that impression. PAD on the other hand was very open in stating that they wanted to move to a 'managed democracy', which of course is not a democracy at all.

The free world has decided on the latter is seems, but it's getting less free all the time anyway. The King was wise to derail this train on behalf of Thai people. I really like that man a lot. Thai people are very lucky.

I know I am and my family is, and I definitely know the Bangkok middle class by and large feels lucky.. The Red rallies and demonstrations do show however that there are people out there, typically with less money and currently without any meaningful voice into how the country is run, who feel less lucky. They too love His Majesty, as does everyone. They do however very much feel disenfranchised in the current political system.

^ Hear hear.

Agree with you on that one. It's somewhat charming though, to see people to point out the make, model, serial number and pedigree of their Thai partners at every opportunity.

My (Thai/Muang/home & business owner/BSc/MBA/1.68m/v2.0) wife just scowls at me for spending too much time on the computer.

Sorry, I've quoted from the legal ruling in the past, paragraphs that mention specifically that the junta laws and institutions were considered to be equal to having been passed by parliament. Some of you should get your noses out of The Nation on occasion.

I'm no fan of Thaksin, but this clearly is politically motivated BS.

Of course the case against him was politically motivated. He commited crimes as the PM, refused to take responsibility for his own actions, refused to call elections or resign when his mandate was up.

!!!!? Were you at all around when Thaksin called elections which then ground the entire politcial system to a halt due to a boycott from the Democrat party, causing the stalemate that directly led to the coup?

It is a political case. In no way does any of that lessen the severity of the charges he was found guilty of. The only judgement the asset trial made about the "junta" laws was that the AEC had the authority to freeze his assets. As the "junta" government had been sworn in by HM the King it was, at the time, the legal Thai government, despite what you or I may feel about the way it was installed.

That's a very creative way to say that military coups are a legal feature of the poliical landscape in this country. I'd even agree with that assessment.

And that's pretty much the topic I find interesting, not so much to what extent Thaksin was a bigger crook than every PM before and after him.

As for more topics along these lines, I'm not sure. I've been thinking recently that perhaps I should be more supportive of the Democrats. After all my middle class lifestyle, use of cheap labor for chores & fun depends on having a poor underclass around. It'd be like Sweden, where you can't afford full time maids, booze & other pleasures.

Ok, I'll bite. What did Thaksin do to make any long term changes to the way the poor in general, and Isaan poor in particular, are treated? He had five years of complete control, so surely he made some real changes?

Ok: ASK THE PEOPLE who voted for him. Please don't take my word for it. I learned recently that some of the Thaksin-obsessed on this forum can barely order a beer in Thai, so what hope is there to learn viewpoints different than what the Bangkok media tries to feed us.. As much as I like to (and in fact often do) debate the merits and failures of the Thaksin governments, what matters at the end of the day is how many people like what they saw and support and vote for those guys. I don't even agree with half of what Thaksin did, but I do respect Thais enough to acknowledge that they need and deserve democracy (however fragile and imperfect) more than coups and meddling from extrademocratic factions.

Or then again some people are living in cloud cuckoo land. If you honestly believe that most Thais don't see farangs as inferior (other than as cash cows) then good for you. May you live in that dream forever.

Yes, once they get to know you they may accept you - but generally, they see us as a source of income and not someone who is equal to them.

^

Come on, get back to Walking Street.

Been here 15 years, long enough to learn pretty fluent Thai, and work in an office with 80 or so Thais. I also enjoy spending time more at the lower end of society. There isn't a single issue in the world where I would refer to all Thais as 'they' or 'them' and then make some sort of statement that applies to all of them. They're all individuals, no different from you and me.

^

Now suddenly RFID is bad..?

When there are some (what seem to be researched) facts stated, there is never much in the way of critical comment and discussion - it just goes back to the usual comments about Abhisit not being a legitimate PM and Thaksin being a crook or what the Yellows and Reds have done of the last couple of years..

Very true.

What about if instead of going into the standard comments for/against whoever (that we read on EVERY political related post), why don't you just write "xxxx Supporter" (where xxxx = Thaksin, Abhisit, Yellow, Red) and save everyone some time.

My problem with that would be that I am not a supporter of any of those people/factions. They all more or less represent the status quo in Thai politics; some a little more than others, but I have few illusions about the greater democratic aspirations of most Red leaning people.

At least some people in the Red camp have thos asperations, but by and large there are far too many idiots & dinosaurs around to actually support the Red side unconditionally. I mean it includes horrendously scary people like Chalerm and Seh Daeng.. yikes.

Sorry, I've quoted from the legal ruling in the past, paragraphs that mention specifically that the junta laws and institutions were considered to be equal to having been passed by parliament. Some of you should get your noses out of The Nation on occasion.

I'm no fan of Thaksin, but this clearly is politically motivated BS.

Foreigners who can speak the language sufficiently to have an adult conversation with Thais, quickly learn that they despise us ...

They tell me that most Thais find farangs disgusting.

They wish foreigners weren't here.

The best case I have ever heard for NOT learning Thai!

Or you could learn it and find out for yourself that Oneman is talking a load of <deleted>.

Indeed.

I'm not surprised however (relieved, perhaps) to learn that JT never learned Thai. Means I better understand where he obtains his information, and which perspectives are absent.

LOL, I liked the poll options "yes" or "yes". Reminds me of the referendum on the constitution that the last junta cooked up.

EDIT: I find the tone of some of the bloggers here simply terrifying- you'll allow every one of your rights to be taken away as long as it only affects people you disagree with. I'll be looking for you among the frenzied lynch mobs stuffing shoes down the throats of the hanging democracy-activists. Wake up, and don't allow history to repeat itself.

Sorry, but these laws have been in place for quite a while, some of them even before the coup. Eihter way, the exact same thing could happen right now with your posts on the Thaivisa server. This forum is required by law to keep your personal details (IP address, etc of every post). The server may be outside Thailand, but as the business is very much a Thai one it'd be good to understand that records will be handed over on request.

The above is more in general; in this particular case though it's fairly black and white. Threatening terrorism through ANY type of media is an offense; it'd be prosecuted no matter if it was printed on paper, yelled from a soap box or posted on Youtube.

I like it. Let me try: "I think the courts decision was fair, however if it were me then I wouldn't have grabbed personal assets under laws that came about during the junta government and after shredding the last legitimate constitution and then applied them retroactively."

Wow, a Democrat-bashing topic... I never thought i'd see the day.

There are no rules against Democrat bashing threads as far as i know Winnie. If the feel forum needs them and the Dems deserve them, why for goodness sake don't you get off your derriere and start some instead of standing around lamenting all the reds bashing threads.

Nobody's implying there's rules against it, however I do notice that the loudest and most frequent posting forum members tend to lean to the conservative/yellow side..

As for more topics along these lines, I'm not sure. I've been thinking recently that perhaps I should be more supportive of the Democrats. After all my middle class lifestyle, use of cheap labor for chores & fun depends on having a poor underclass around. It'd be like Sweden, where you can't afford full time maids, booze & other pleasures.

I'm intrigued though. Why restrict yourself to hotels.

Fair question, but I don't want to get into a discussion about it on this thread.

It's difficult enough to keep any thread here on topic without offering more temptation to those who persist in going off topic.

So I will acknowledge your question here, and answer in a private message.

Now I'm REALLY intrigued.. Anything to do with having accommodation nearby after luring womenfolk to go have dinner with you? Cause for the life of me I can't think of any other reason why it would make sense to dine in hotels..

For me: YES, Thailand is very much the land of smiles. (15 years)

I do live in Chiang Mai though; I get a lesser sense of Thai smiles in places like Bangkok.

I just don't understand some people who seem miserable all day, spending their time ranting on online forums. Why do that in Thailand..

Wow, a Democrat-bashing topic... I never thought i'd see the day. and the only retorts are personal jabs such as above by rixalex..

Especially when it's yellow. (Just stay away from any airports, and leave the guns at home please! )

I got some of these just over a year ago and they didn't work for me, the 1mg did pretty much nothing to me. I didn't want to take a high dose so I found something else which works perfectly every time - I hate being awake for the full distance on long flights especially overnight ones.

What did you get instead? Last time I asked my doctor he gave me $()#$ valium, which is nasty stuff. Ok it was free under social insurance, but still.

the Hub of Unseen Hubs

(I appreciate that one. )

10) Announce that the 14th of March is to become "National Walking Day".

A protest action by a European gay rights group comes to mind, who asked gay students to call in sick for the day in protest of something or another. Imagine what that did to people who really were sick that day.

So in the spirit of this topic, and to lighten it up a little, they could declare a city-wide Gay Parade for Bangkok, with Red being the color of choice. (At least one South Park episode also come to mind.)

Hindsight is always 20/20, and the more distance I get from this situation, the clearer things become. After following a few hints from the other posters, I quickly identified the most likely candidate for the type of pill it was. I'm pretty sure it was the Thai generic form of Xanax know as Xiemed. After seeing the picture of the purple 1mg tablet, I have little doubt in my mind.

I took one of the 5mg tabs by choice to sleep through some festival fireworks last year, and it put me out for about 10 hours.

They make 5mg Xanax (Alprazolam) tablets?? Thought they came in .5 and 1mg only? (Just did a search.. there apparently is 2mg as well, though I've not seen that available in Thailand)

Either way, it's pretty much impossible for one 1mg tablet to knock you out cold, or even do anything beyond making you more relaxed, a bit drowsy at best. (and especially not when you haven't been drinking as per your original post; It usually takes me 2 of those in addition to some alcohol to sleep on a flight, and then I'm by no means out cold, often waking up, etc.. (Yes I have a prescription). You basically get relaxed and a bit drowsy, but not enough to knock you out while any kind of serious shit is going on.

Hmm, not sure about that. I once needed to have an early night for a 5.30am visa run the next morning, so had one beer with half a 1mg xanax pill. Nothing happened, so I cracked another beer and had the other half - I remember nothing until my alarm woke me up, covered in beer and wet through. I had passed out before even having a slip of the second beer, which had spilt all over me. Xanax is bloody powerful in combination with beer.

This was clearly xanax, although this story is obviously pure fiction. I think even the dimmest would have worked out that a pill needs to be crushed.

Whoa, good information here.. I take about 2mg Xanax on flights (1mg, 30 mins to an hour apart), in combination with alcohol of just about every kind, but just not beer. Is beer truly different than a combination of rum, gin, Cointreau (lounge) and some red and white wine, and possibly Brandy if it's TG? Or maybe it's just me..

What heroic movement has corrupt convicted fugitive criminal Thaksin NOT been compared to? [...] Don't forget Black Songkran, those are the kinds of violent thugs the government is dealing with.

Lets be objective here, admit the faults from both sides and people may take your posts more seriously, reading your posts is like reading the Nation.

Ouch! ( But wait, he might not even be offended by that..? )

Nice one.. in polarized times though, not many people manage mixed emotions. I think mixed emotions are a sign of emotional balance. In the current political strife, be it in Thai society or on this forum, this is not very common place.

If only the East German Stasi thought of this when people were going to the wall!

Anyway, last time I checked there was freedom of movement, freedom of assembly and relative freedom of speech in this country, even under the current constitution.. Then again recently the powers that be have been rather effective in leveraging bureaucracy and the judiciary against those basic rights, so who knows.