WinnieTheKhwai

I went to the CMU fair today. It's big, well worth a visit if you want to buy some plants or trees, be it ornamental or fruit trees.

There are actually far nicer places in the North of Thailand than Chiang Mai and maybe the lunatic extremists of LCM51 will cause a redistribution of tourists to these other venues that in general could better do with the tourist baht.

If and where there are nicer places in the North is a debate that will never come to a conclusive result, but your statement seems to imply that Red Shirt protests are somehow limited to Chiang Mai, and then even the city of Chiang Mai, which is largely the same sort of urban middle class demographic that often go Democrat.

Anyway, Mae Hong Son and Phrae are nice places. I'm visiting Nan myself for the upcoming holiday, indeed they're very nice places!

As Love Chiang Mai 51 group is still going to go ahead with their demonstration rally this weekend, it might be best to avoid the area, at least until this violent group is brought under control.

O-kay.. Here are some pictures of a small gatherting today. Honestly..

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Red-Shirts-D...24#entry3170424

You will have no problem. Don't worry.

The official celebration is the next Monday anyway, the 5th falling in the weekend.

The compensation holiday is Monday, but surely the celebrations are on the 5th?

Either way, it will only affect the area where events are organized. I wouldn't let it affect my planning.

Well she has deleted her profile and says she's finished with it

We talked it all through and she says she stayed on just for fun never meant to meet anyone

Well, it is of course possible to get addicted to such online sites, in the same way as you might get addicted to Facebook or even Thaivisa.com

What is it that makes government in the West think they can impose their own morality as to when a person should be working and earning money? I am sure they would be more proud if the kids was out stealing, starving and/or abusing drugs and dying at a young age. You know, the LA way...

One of the most significant failures regarding this 'protect the children' hysteria is that it has missed the point ('save the children'), as seen when factory-owners in India and Nepal got caught up in boycott-calls, their western customers imposing trade-rules and the companies then summarily dismissed all underage (by western standard) workers, leaving them to poverty.

Even UNICEF write of the plight caused in Bangladesh after the Child Labor Deterrence Act was introduced in the US, an estimated 50,000 children were dismissed from their garment industry jobs, leaving many to resort to jobs such as "stone-crushing, street hustling, and prostitution", jobs that are "more hazardous and exploitative than garment production". The study suggests that boycotts are "blunt instruments with long-term consequences, that can actually harm rather than help the children involved."

( http://www.unicef.org/sowc97/report/ )

Are you really trying to defend child labour?

Do you have arguments to say it can never be defended? I'm all ears. Very few things in the world are black and white; it's easy to throw something out there and call it inexcusable without looking at all the factors involved, and all the consequences of acting, or not acting.

Personally I don't believe that child labour in Thailand is very widespread, especially not in factories and the like. It is fairly common in family businesses, and you could argue that it was equally common throughout the history of the USA, until they are where they are now. It's a bit simplistic to then oppose other countries for going through the same process. (Applies not just to this topic but just about anything; Safety standards in the US weren't always as high as they are now; focus on pollution wasn't always as high as it is now; etc. )

In addition to family business it's also far too common among non-Thai groups such as hill tribe people, Shan/Burmese, Cambodian.. Kids being sent out at night to sell flowers, wash windscreens and so on is clearly wrong. So if I'm really honest then there is definitely an ethnic factor involved, however I would not take the simplistic view that 'it's the foreigners, it's their issue'.. I think the Thai government has a responsibility on everything that happens in Thailand, so that includes putting Burmese/Cambodian/Hilltribe children's rights and safety on the agenda.

I go to this noodle shop and noticed that many of the helpers at the shop were Burmese. One of the shop keepers said that they had to pay a 50 thousand baht fee to get official papers to allow these Burmese workers into Thailand.

I just wonder whether these Burmese workers are working under slave-labor-like conditions and whether any of their personal documents are kept by the Thai employers to prevent the Burmese laborers from running away.

They could still run away, just not with those documents that they most likely haven't paid for yet. Typically the fees for this would be cut from their monthly salary. Overall of course the goal of employing non-Thais is that they cost less; so it's a bit disingenuous on the part of those people to be complaining about the cost for making them legal, when the overall reason they're doing it is to save a few bucks compared to hiring Thai/Isan/etc people.

Donation boxes for everything is very typical at Thai temples, especially larger ones. It's not a sign of commercialism per se.

I agree there's usually not too much to see at the Palace. However you probably missed going further up the hill to the summit of Doi Pui; nature gets really beautiful there.

I tip the security guards now and again. Sometimes I pick em up a little bbq chicken and stuff on my way home from a late night out.

The trash guys I don't tip very often unless I have a ton of tree clippings that are over and above the normal amount. Was thinking of putting a full un-capped bottle of JW Red in the bin someday with a nice lil note "Happy New Year".

I'm almost sure you're joking, but for the record: don't do that; Food and liquor and money and gifts in general are semi-revered things and best treated with some respect. Putting them in the trash turns a very nice gesture into an iffy one. By all means give them something though.

Careful.. Obvious as it may be, these days this doesn't seem to fall under freedom of expression anymore, and may be deemed 'rumour mongering harmful to the state', even when just quoting another news source!

Thais do it all the time, especially in Bangkok and urban areas. Prime people being tipped: Traffic police!

Anyway, probably 'tip' is the wrong word for a 'New Year Gift'.

Personally, we tip the maid. (We also tip her at Songkran and Loy Krathong). We live in a gated development, and we tip the gardeners and security guards.

In addition, this year I plan to go to the fire department and tip them as well. Not sure if Thais tip those guys or not, but they should. Also I'm hoping to get some cell phone numbers in return from those guys, that's never a bad thing.

NB: When it comes to tipping in bars and restaurants and so on I'm notoriously stingy; but the people above work hard and do good work and deserve a little something once in a while. Little things are also appreciated; we often give some warm soy milk these days to the security guards who look like they're freezing currently.

As with all acts of selfless generocity, be it tipping, gifts or Thanksgiving: If you have to think about it then just don't bother. Let your hart speak.

If you want a river view, go to Riverside. but the food there is just so-so.

The Dukes is on the river road, with an outdoor porch.

Isn't BUONISSIMO on the river? It's often been recommended on this forum.

Yes it is, however it would need to be a place that's open (and somewhat busy) for lunch. That makes it harder. The riverside used to be open for lunch.

It's interesting though not unexpected that the natural knee-jerk reaction in the government is to blame foreigners.. "She said that it might appear as if young children are being used in factories because some foreign workers bring their children to work."

Sure.

At this point he will not get extra vote from there any way, so he can focus on other problems elsewhere and increase his popularity. Who cares what CM think. After all they are the one choose to like Mt T. (sorry I forgot his new name). CM will see the light soon and figure out that Mr. T is only for himself and not for any one and not especially for Thai or CM folks. Oh yeah who cared what the RED shirt say or think

But the many Thai citizens, who live in Chiang Mai but don't vote for TRT/PPP/PTP, may feel that CM51 and their weapons have triumphed over democracy and freedom yet again.

Yes, absolutely. And there's quite a few of those, especially in the city area.

US blacklists Thailand over child, forced labour

By The Nation

Published on November 27, 2009

US blacklists Thailand over child, forced labour

The US has pushed forward a law allowing tough measures on manufacturers who reportedly use children or forced labour, a senior official said yesterday.

Labour Protection and Welfare Department chief Amporn Nitisiri said the US Labour Department had issued a list of countries, which says that Thailand uses child or forced labour in the productions of shrimps, textiles, sugar cane and pornographic materials. She went on to say that US legislators had also proposed the Customs Facilitation and Trade Enforcement Reauthorization Act, which bans the import of goods made by children, forced labourers or victims of human trafficking.

Meanwhile, the labour protection department is consulting with the Foreign and Commerce ministries on how to respond to these accusations and get Thailand removed from the list, she said. The department is also going to host a conference about the impact of selling goods made by child or forced labour on December 14 in Bangkok. The event, meant for Thai employers in the shrimp and textile industries, will be cosponsored by the International Labour Organisation.

Amporn confirmed that under Thai law, children under the age of 15 are prohibited from employment, and that those between 15 and 18 years of age can only be employed if official permission is sought first. She said that it might appear as if young children are being used in factories because some foreign workers bring their children to work - something that needs to be explained to US authorities.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/11/27...al_30117484.php

[Reported this article to request moving to News Clippings]

This is going to get closed real soon.. The original question though has merit: What makes the US consulate think that an urgent and dangerous situation existed, when clearly (I think amongst ourselves) we agree that it's already covered by the standing common-sense recommendation to avoid any protests about anything?

Indeed other embassies and consulates, even the ones that are usually at the front of the line to start yelling 'shark, shark!' (you know who you are. ) didn't issue a warming in this case.

On the front page of the "newspaper that must not be named" - there is an article

You can name the newspaper. I had a discussion with admin on this, and there's nothing wrong with mentioning the Bangkok Post, or discuss what's in it.

You just can't quote it or link to it.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, however, I seem to remember about 1 year ago when the PM (Somchai) could not land his plane in Bangkok because of the YELLOW SHIRTS.

What needs to happen is the Police need to enforce of the law against each an everyone that incites unruly and illegal actions. And if there are not any laws on the books, then make some. And get rid of the my pen lie attitudes.

While I am all for protesting and airing grievances, it mush be done in such away that does not harm and must not damage others lives, ie working, schools etc.

Completely agree, also with the last part.

That's unusually 'kind' of you to compliment Abhisit in this way, but full credit goes to Thaksin and the particular thugs in CM for effectively separating the city from Thailand, thereby upping the ante.

You must admit that this is a bit of a stretch.. I mean in all seriousness:

-> A segment of the population feels that the current government wasn't formed in a proper way and want elections. [No matter how big or small a segment, and no matter what the actual outcome of an election would be; I'm just being factual, bear with me. ]

-> Even in the current constitution, people have the basic freedom of assembly and freedom of speech.

-> However, all sides seem to agree that it is not proper and/or not in anyone's best interest to have a shouting match or worse in the days before the upcoming holiday. The Reds all the way up to Thaksin have expressed this clearly by postponing the Bangkok rally, and Abhisit has opted to not flame any fire by visiting. If I was stating more than facts here then I could add that it almost sounds like a deal was done, but then I wouldn't be factual anymore so take this for what it's worth.

---

So there you have it, that's to the best of my ability a factual summary of what just transpired this week. And from this, you come to the conclusion that "Thaksin and the particular thugs in CM [are] effectively separating the city from Thailand.".

I'd say that's somewhat of a hyperbole. Both sides have decided to defuse a potential clash, and you manage to yet again drag Takky into it as a villain? It almost seems that no matter what happens, it's part of Thaksin's evil meddling? That's a very black and white view of things at best.

Used to think Chiang Mai would be the most ideal place in Thailand to raise a family for a number of reasons.

That opinion is as good as dashed for the foreseeable future at the very least after this weeks events. LCM can have it.

Well, as it happens, that's pretty much what I'm doing as we speak, raising a family in Chiang Mai. It's good, and we got things like fog. Last week I wanted to show the 4 year old what fog is like so we just drove up the mountain that's right next to town. An eerie foggy forrest, you don't get that in Patters or Bangkok.

Lots of questions you pose there... my question to you is, aren't you overreacting somewhat? Abhisit has made a sensible decision to defuse tension, remove the reason for the protest and the protest will most likely peter out. Of course he could have come up with full security and 'banged some heads together', but would that really have moved things along?

Good decision not to go.

Thank you. Yes, that's pretty much my point. Though to be honest I also think he does need to engage (some groups in) the red movement at some point. At that point there may be a demonstration or rally by the Reds, which is actually still allowed even under the current constitution. Reading posts here you'd think otherwise, that anyone voicing a political opinion is a terrorist.

Yes, he has dual UK-Thai citizenship and resides in the UK. Interesting to see all the splintering amongst the Reds and Pheu Thai Party, although he, in particular, seems to blast all sides including his own.

I'd go one step further and not only call it interesting, but essential. Can't have a small but loud element derail the more genuine arguments for democracy and equality. Giles also wrote a rather scathing article on the legacy of Samak; he's no fan of Samak either. Hint: He agrees with a lot of posters here on that. I think when you actually read his articles that you agree with quite a lot of it. (He is very left wing of course, a socialist and not ashamed of it)

Does anyone know what kind of prison term a convicted terrorist gets here in Thailand?

I have no clue whatsoever. Now, at the risk of getting back on topic:

Why disrupt the peace... Stay home Mr. Abhisit! Please.

And toady to the criminal element of CM. No way,

Way!

PM Decides to Cancel Trip to Chiang Mai

And, only a day or two after I wondered why people were STILL whiny even after the Bangkok rally was postponed, let me take a different stance and sincerely thank Mr. Abhisit for defusing the situation. Both parties give some and take some and I think this is good, especially in the days leading up to the national holiday. So a sincere 'Thank You' to Abhisit; credit where credit is due.

Why disrupt the peace... Stay home Mr. Abhisit! Please.

They were over 60 and he still enjoyed getting to his wife..! R.e.s.p.e.c.t.!!!

As does 'fresh-face' PM in waiting Gen Chavalit, not to mention bridesmaid PM in waiting the right hon Mr Chalerm...

One also wonders how flaming lips Jakaprob is taking all this 'delay nonsense' ...

In the interest of red shirted solidarity with their boss, please refer to them by their new names:

Chavvi, Challi and Jakki.

Thank you.

For the sake of fairness I look forward to going back to Abby.

Whinnie appears to be very 'loosely' quoting from another member whom had in turn paraphrased (with similar spin;) from the paper which is not in TV's alliance. The disinformation campaign grows in the re-telling.

After apologizing for misspelling my name, feel free to mosey on over to this link and ask someone to translate it for you:

http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?...d=01&catid=

You're welcome.