WinnieTheKhwai

Or, the same "<deleted>!?" but expressed in a factual numerical format:

Please dude.

<deleted>... Most beautiful time of the year and someone finds the time complain?!

If you come in February you'll get to see it first hand. And you'll also see how it clears up in April first, and then completely vanishes when the dry season ends.

Anyway, I would come to stay at a hotel or guesthouse first, possibly on a weekly/monthly rent, and during that time look for a part of town you want to be in longer term, and look for houses to rent. This is much easier (and cheaper) done 'on the ground' as opposed to over the internet.

Renting a car you can negotiate something longer term for example at Northwheels (www.northwheels.com), but it's not cheap.

This now reminds me of the Bill Murray movie 'Lost in Translation' although it seems everyone here has a good command of the English language so I'm not sure why there is so much confusion as to what I was trying to say!

Because you read selectively. It has little to do with our language of choice.

I'm sure that the sex workers in Pattaya have travelled there from all over Thailand and that they are real people but to say Pattaya is the 'real' Thailand and the same as places like Sukhothai, Korat, Ayuthaya, Nan etc etc just because these places also have sex workers is just plain silly.

I didn't say that. *YOU* *asked* : " in which way are places like Sukhothai and Korat similar to Pattaya?"

That is a question I can answer (see my post #85). I was however NOT saying "those places are similar to Pattaya". I even spelled that out in post #85.

That's where communication breaks down, when people say one thing, but somehwere in between the screen and yourself, the message apparently morphs into something I other than what I wrote.

Obviously if you did listen to the girls and understood their history and why they were there doing what they were doing then it would explain a lot about Thailand and definitely would be stone cold real but the reality is that most people don't.

Right. First and foremost starting with your good self because you (somewhat proudly) claimed to never have visited Pattaya. From that I take that you also don't visit bar areas in other cities much, though that's an assumption on my part. Other than that I can't speak for other people; not sure what they get out of it, but I do think that sex tourists (for lack of a better term) tend to pick up quite a bit of the culture, quite possibly more than your average package tourist or backpacker.

What I was trying to say in my original post is actually quite simple, a Thai girl with a tattoo doesn't mean they are a BG and people should remember that when they travel outside of unique tourist destinations like Pattaya because not every girl in Thailand should be judged by what people see in Pattaya.

Why the obsession with Pattaya? Someone pointed this out earlier: You argue against stereotyping based on fashion/tattoos, and I agree with that. But in the same breath you are very eager to stereotype based on location? I for one love the real Thailand, and I love Pattaya as well, and I very much consider Pattaya a part of any definition of 'the real Thailand'.

I'm healthy as a horse.

A week with more holidays than working days.. I am NOT getting sick this week!

On the original topic: I think it's pretty vile to politicize a celebration in this way. Both sides have shown admirable restraint, but now this government clown seems to want to milk it further. It's be nice if someone would start talking issues.

The things I've heard from these people and seen myself on TV, newspaper/magazine articles, youtube etc etc about Pattaya makes me think it's probably very different to Nan, Tak, Chiang Rai, Sukhothai, Ayuthaya, Korat, Khon Kaen, Utaradit, Phitsanulok, Trang, Hat Yai, Songkhla, Lopburi which, amongst others, are places I was referring to as the real Thailand. You really think these places are similar to Pattaya? In what way?

Ah.. Sorry, I mistakenly thought it was obvious, but in hindsight I do agree it isn't, especially if you're not immersed first-hand.

In what way: THE PEOPLE are the same. In Pattaya, almost everyone you meet comes from somewhere else. They are people from Nan, Tak, Chiang Rai, Sukhothai, Phitsanulok, Utaradit and just about every province in the North East. They are very real people, and value roughly the same things in life as people who work in other provinces. If you find a person there with her whole back covered in Yantra tattoos, and you'd ask her why or what it meant, then chances are you will have a very interesting conversation, and learn a few things about tattoos and about the person. I know I did.

Perhaps one day I will visit Pattaya and it may be just like these places but I doubt it!

The place is not the same I'll grant you that. And I was convinced I'd hate it before going there. I traveled to all regions in Thailand for about 4 years before finally checking out Pattaya. It's a pretty amazing place. I'm not going to rant about it in positive terms, but I will say it's as stone cold REAL as life in Thailand is ever going to get. I learned a lot about Thailand, and about myself.

people shouldn't form opinions about Thailand or Thai women based only on their experiences in Pattaya.

I think we agree there. Indeed nobody could form a balanced opinion based ONLY on their experiences in Pattaya, but the other side of that coin is that you're also not going to form a complete opinion on Thai people WITHOUT talking to some of the people who migrate to places like Pattaya. There's more Thai culture going on around Pattaya than you'd think looking at the neon and the international chains. It's right there in front of you most of the time, but it's not the stuff that a casual tourist would tell you about, or that you could see on a Youtube video.

Search for ภาพเก่าในอดีตเชียงใหม่ in Google

Lots of interesting ones come up.

I had a link in Lanna Cafe for a whole series but that site seems to have a bug.

As well as an image search for " เชียงใหม่ในอดีต "

-of course a foreigner can own a home. what he can't own is land. my wife and me own our house!

Right, thanks for adding that.

Nice looking house too!

For those who wish to celebrate this special day and cannot find a how to package at their local 7-eleven

Huh.. English please?

But yeah, candles are nice.

I met a girl in Chiangmai who had a conch shell tattooed on her inner thigh. The colour was exquisitely realistic and it was just small enough that it could be discreetly hidden when wearing shorts.

It worked too! When you held your ear close to it, you could almost imagine you were smelling the ocean.

LOL.. Thanks, reading a post like this makes it all worth it.

It is a fact that many hookers have tattoos. It is also a fact that girls egg each other on, even though they are told their customers do not always like them. They are often hideous, poor quality, badly placed and often just large and ugly. Just who wants a girl with a leg and back covered with a tattoo is beyond me, whilst I can see that an impish devil on a bottom or other normally hidden place could be of no issue.

Right.. I don't disagree with any of that, but I'm approaching it as I would art, or other cultural/spiritual/fashion expressions that may be fascinating an beautiful, or they may be hideous and in bad taste. Like with other art such as paintings, movies or music, you don't have to like each and every one of those expressions. In fact it is unlikely you like each and everyone, or even most ones.

But I think the world is a little less boring when people can and do make these statements. Would I marry such a girl: probably not but like you said yourself that would be related to a troubled background, not to the tattoo. In fact, finding a girl with a top level education AND some interesting tattoos is just about the most attractive thing imaginable. Middle class girls tend to be ueber boring and preoccupied with appearances 24/7. Finding one strong enough to say 'to HECK with what anyone might think' is highly attractive to me.

I think you (we) should not get caught up in stereotypes.. So what if xx% of all people with tattoos are lower class. I'm not deciding who I hang out with or who I marry based on a percentage. I marry a person, not a statistic.

As divorce is less common in Thailand,i can see why the mia noi is often the alternative. The relationship with the first wife is platonic and she doesnt want a divorce, so the husbands alternative is a mia noi.

I think people often have this "harem" type image when the word mia noi comes up..as if the husband is sleeping with both the wife and the mia noi...and that he somehow rules the roost. I think reality is a lot less glamorous and less porno fantasy-like.

I think that's exactly it. To me, having a mia noi sounds like double the agony.

Any relationship over two hours and I get a bit claustrophobic.

It is a hooker tattoo and will look great back in the rice paddies if she does not get selected for marriage.

Typical Thai, think only for now, too stupid to think of the future.

This is such an uplifting forum sometimes. Why the (*)$#*)#$ are you even in Thailand if you look down on the people so much?

well said that man skybluestu

I find that the clothes I wore 20 years ago are no longer fashionable. I would hate to think I had to have them lasered off.

Yantra tattoos have nothing to do with fashion. I think you have a different understanding from most Thais as to what tattoos are. (Not wrong, just different. But then don't go proclaiming to know what Thai people are about, say for example like Torrenova above, that'd just look silly.)

Why.. I haven't followed this debate at all but I liked JR's post even though it's somewhat hyperbolic.. After all you could make the comparison with a car as well; a VW Beetle form the 1940s isn't radically different from what we drive today; there's be evolutional progress (as there has been with energy), bit it's not like a car folds into your pocket and a 1 hour charge keeps it running for a day or two.

Still, the underlying point is that if people's minds are REALLY put to it, a lot more energy could be generated around people's houses for personal use.

I like tattoos on girls. The more the better. Especially the really wild religious ones, all over a hot girl's back.. Awesome. So they'd need to be the standard Thai traditional 'just black' ones. But elaborate designs are welcomed. Plus you got something to read and admire.

( I most likely woudn't marry such a person, but that wasn't the question. )

By "really weird religious ones" do you mean the Khmer protective tattoos (i.e. sak yant in Thai)?

Yes, exactly. Thanks for the link as well. Another great site is http://www.sak-yant.com/

The only Thai people I have ever seen with those tattoos were men. Of course Angelina Jolie has some too, but she is not Thai.

Until quite recently I would have agreed with you. But I see it more and more. I met some girls recently who had their whole backs covered with Yantra tattoos, they were magnificent.

I've never been to Pattaya (I prefer the real Thailand) but I'm guessing

Sorry but a statement like that pushes a particular button in me.. Don't worry, it's me. No matter what the statement, you can't claim not to have experience at something and then take a wild guess. "I've never flown an aeroplane, but I'm guessing ..." whatever is about to follow is not bound be something with a lot of authority.

And then, if you did bother to visit Pattaya one day, you may find that it's more real Thailand than you imagined. Or alternatively, that the real Thailand is more like Pattaya than you imagined. (Almost but not quite the same thing).

Independent writers have bias too. Don't get me wrong I love following Giles et al, but unbiased he is not. (Nor does he claim to be, of course)

Gravion, you don't own it. So it doesn't matter if you die because you never owned it in the first place.

Secondly, you can't take things into the grave with you anyway; that's just peculiarity of life. Any house or other assets are usually inherited by your wife and then your children, not unlike how it would go in the West.

Search the forum for details; thousands of pages on home 'ownership' in Thailand. All kinds of interesting tricks of varying legality and benefit, related to companies, 30 year leases, or putting the whole show on a mortgage so instead of paying rent to someone you don't care about, you do monthly mortgage payments so your wife/children eventually have something to show for it.

[ EDIT: NB: This topic is not about home 'ownership' by foreigners; plenty people decide this is not for them, so they rent or buy a condominium, which is a perfectly sensible choice. ]

Excellent idea. Everyone feeling the same as the OP, please stay home.

I don't know of any news sources in Thailand that are completely unbiased. I do know of some dissenting news sources that oppose the government line, but objectively that's a bias as well.

Still if you can balance the two usual suspects with those news sources then you can distill a reasonable picture. Add to that the international sources such as BBC, the Economist, FEER, various NGOs and you can stay reasonably informed on what really goes on and why.

Just sent you a private message with a URL in it. ( Let me know if the link didn't make it uncensored.)

What is unique to Thailand however is that things that can be showed around tend to be higher up the desirability list. 'A nice home' cannot as easily be shown off as a car, cell phone or fashion so it's somewhat down the list.

There are exceptions of course. Those are the people with common sense, who see the increase in quality of life from a nice home, as well as a home being something that doesn't depreciate into thin air in a couple months/years.

25 baht a cup seems expensive for home espresso

a small bag of Bon Cafe/ and other brands i cant think of coffee blend costs roughly 170 baht and usually gives me just under a months worth @ a cup a day, so about 5-6 baht per cup.

Right. And then there's a 30K-70K espresso machine that needs maintenance, rent, salary, etc, etc. 25-30 baht is pretty reasonably for espresso. But yes, it IS relatively expensive given that 25-30 baht can also be 'lunch'.

Driving is more expensive than almost everything else if you factor everything in. (fuel, maintenance, wear, 'risk'. And that's assuming you already own a car. If you rent then you can add that as well.

Overnight bus is about 9 hours. Get a ticket from the Arcade bus station. Nakhon Chai Air is a good company there. You can take an overnight bus or day bus. Same as the train: sleeper is nice, or day train.

A lot of people in the Chiang Mai area are really quite wealthy. People seem to think of Thailand as a poor country, but when you spend a longer time here you realize it's a country with a lot of poor people in it, but also MANY middle class people and quite a few who are wealthy by any standard.

You're right that basic office jobs pay aroun 10K if that, but keep in mind that the people who do those jobs are already up from their background of poor labourers. It's mostly burmese and hill tribe doing the really basic jobs these days. And then there's a lot of people doing any kind of trading, farming, etc. That can pay enough for a reasonable middle class income.

Wow, great responses, and some VERY nice pictures! I'm officially impressed.

It's a good point that wooden walls aren't very sound proof.. What I had in mind would be to start with a very basic one room + roof type structure and then keep adding to it. There's be walkways and/or a center open area of some sort, so rooms wouldn't actually be directly adjacent.. I hope that would address noise issues..

Of course maintenance and pest control are the most obvious challenges. Note BTW that those tiny ant-like creatures can be just as big of a problem in concrete, bricks & cement houses. For wood the answer is probably SERIOUS pest control infrastucture already built in from the foundations up, and then in the type of wood (& wood treatment) so keep bugs from eating it.