thaiwanderer

I wouldn't necessarily take the responses here as representative of practical or best practice.

The difficulty is that the Foreign Status that you currently enjoy will be lost . You will have to transfer to a Thai Company.

why do you suggest that?

other than the attitude / suspicions of local officials and usual pratfalls of a farang's involvement (real or imagined) nothing impossible here or greatly different from normal land / development issues

however coming back to due diligence thread, that is essential here not least to check whether condo allowed on plot and or practical likely hood of approval

About buying land. Still considering buying a small block in Phuket and have made an offer but I'm smelling something scamish.

Firstly, the owner works in the Lands Office where the land would be transferred to my wife.

Secondly, this owner wants the full payment in cash. I think this is a rather unusual way to pay a large sum as this in cash and no record of the transaction. The owner who works at the office said "if your worried, get a security guard".

Any ideas what the owner would be playing at?

Thanks.

This is probably about taxes. When you buy the land, you also decare the price at which the land is bought/sold. The land office uses this to calculate the taxes due on the selling of the land based on this. Often the declared price is much lower than the real paid price.

The land offices can check the price and calculate their own estimate, but that is hardly ever done.

It most probably has nothing at all to do with land office taxes.

Under declaring is very frequently done without the need for physical cash.

Healthy cynicism of lawyers, their fees and value for money but in a country that's likely more corrupt than your home and where you have far less legal rights yet checks that may be seen as basic in your home country get thrown out with the bathwater?

It's one thing to have carried out full due dilligence (including but not limited to the full history of the title) and to then asses the risk and your comfort with it against the money invested and or desire to retain your property before buying and at a particular price,

and quite another to fail to carry that out and find out later when you've pulled the trigger on relatively little information.

As an english language board can assume many here who might be interested in these issues may end up with a structure attempting to approximate their use and control of land with perhaps the hope of exiting with some money or passing on to heirs etc - to varying degrees of strength. Essentially these are houses of cards of varying degrees of strength but houses of cards nonetheless. Why then decide to not even check whether you are building them on the sand of poor title? (And even if Thai or for a Thai spouse to hold why decide not to check whetehr you are building their non-card house on sand anyway?).

The starting point is that no liability arises from the mistake (deliberate or honest) of a government official.

So Land X has a chanote, you, your thai spouse and or thai lawyer has checked with the land office and it is indeed registreted as chanote, relates to the exact parcel of land you think it does, the seller is the owner and there is no mortgage etc.. However without full due dilligence you won't know whether that chanote was correctly issued and therefore whether its capable of being rescinded at a later date.

Full due dilligence should also look into zoning and whether what you want to built / is already there is legal and will be allowed to stay.

It should also confirm that the building permit is genuine and fit for purpose.

Have personally seen chanotes issued for forestry and other land that plainly would not stand up to any sort of challenge, as well as chanotes being issued where the history of the land simply doesn't support a chanote being issued for Khun Y as well as properties (at the very highest end) built illegally.

On specific instances we might then be in a discussion of how likely any problems may be (though a national crackdown is never needed to affect one property - disgruntled neighbour, indebted / soon retiring local official etc is enough) but for an individual and their own money to simply ignore the issue of looking into the sandyness of their legal foundations isn't entirely prudent.

If we're not interested in even considering issues such as these then this subforum should perhaps be limited to issues relating to squatting only.

If we might be interested, then how much is reasonable for a lawyer to provide this service?

If you read, write and speak fluent Thai, have a good grasp on how and why titles should be upgraded, zoning and building permits amongst other things and have a healthy rapport with the relevant local officals then I'm sure you'll be fine in obtaining, checking and interpreting all the information.

If not, how much is it worth?

The German film makers contacted the Region 2 Child and Woman Protection Unit based at Banglamung Police Station who met the film crew at Royal Garden Plaza where Mr. Wallis met with the boy and the pair drove off to a secluded area inside Soi 4 off the Pratamnuk Road in South Pattaya. Minutes later officers moved in and allegedly witnessed Mr. Wallis performing oral sex on the boy."

So the crew waited for the man to drive off with the boy in order to catch him in the act. So what is the news crew going to be charged with for allowing this to happen? No doubt they paid this boy for his cooperation, used him to make a buck. These guys exploited a minor for money, and pimps are worse than Johns.

It's pretty simple economics. Take away the product and you have no buyers.

Product - Price - Placement - Promotion

The law is too busy using humans like "meat" so they can make money.

The sex workers think they are smarter than the law, in that they figure they can thread the needle and make a few bahts on the side, and if they get caught, they'll be back out on the street soon and be that much smarter.

The foreign Johns are collateral damage to this industry. The real money is the Asian men. No arrests. No signs and banners with dark brown hands gripping jail cell bars. It's called human trafficking and Thailand is ranked in the top 5.

Why let yourself be "rescued" and learn to sew rugs in a sweat shop when you are born with the goods already to go?

I am not describing rape or forced submission. I am describing the rats that use their bodies to make a baht and literally think nothing of it, and in turn take advantage of the "rescuers" and get three hots and a cot for a week or two before they run away and go back out for the next round.

Did that defence work for you?

Taxes -

'mistaken' calculation by officials needing rectifying

parties colluding to misdeclare too much

Can you please give more details on this? How does this process of collecting additional taxes even work? An "example" might be something like:

"A friend purchased some chanoted land, transfer all when through properly at the land department, 6 months later a guy from the land department called him and said he must return to the land department and pay XXXX baht additional taxes, because of land department miscalculation"? What happens if you refuse to pay the additional taxes?

Transfers -

recorded borders being way off

faked POAs used by lawyer

title having been upgraded incorrectly

apparent title holder having no actual right to the land

nominees having been used

You said you had experience of titles being rescinded by the department, but could you please give specific example of how this occurred? An "example" might be something like:

"My uncle bought a house, chanote was transferred, 2 weeks later the land department staff came to the house and said the seller had used a fake POA, and the chanote had been given back to the old owner"

Probably easier and less rude if you say what you've done that you are now concerned about.

All of the incidences I'm aware of (and fully conversant with the facts on) didn't involve a friend or family member, which is precisely why its entirely inappropriate and I'm extremely reluctant to enter a custard test at your behest.

Is it impossible for some farangs to favour ockham's razor?

Even if the age of consent in countries other than Thailand was relevant (it isn't) the alleged perp was British.

Victim blaming says more about those doing the blaming.

Yes. Several.

Of which bit are you unaware, sceptical, concerned or whatever?

With both assertions that:

1) Additional transfer fees/tax can be assessed after the transfer is completed.

2) That the land department can rescind a completed transfer at their will.

I'm not doubting you; but i'd be interested to hear the circumstances surrounding the cases that had this happen. Please elaborate on why this occurred in the several cases that you are aware of.

Taxes -

'mistaken' calculation by officials needing rectifying

parties colluding to misdeclare too much

Transfers -

recorded borders being way off

faked POAs used by lawyer

title having been upgraded incorrectly

apparent title holder having no actual right to the land

nominees having been used

Various incidences of the above and combination thereof.

Proper due dilligence and straight shooting would reveal some but not all.

Genuine mistake sometimes, not so genuine or mistaken at other times.

While OP is now walking away (briskly) I do wish to respectfully disagree with some issues raised above.

It's up to the land department whether they accept him as having a right to sell the property on the sister behalf.

If they don't accept it you will not be able to do the transfer. End of story.

If they do accept it and the deals goes through, it's done you already own the land, they can't come and take it back later.

The land office can make mistakes and sometimes more than mistakes. No liability attaches for the mistake of an official and in such circumstances the transfer can be rescinded and the OP would be left without the land and chasing the 'brother' for the money and he may be a man of straw. There is no reason not to contract directly with the seller and many valid reasons to insist on it.

Taxes are paid upfront before you do the transfer, they will not come around later asking for more.

But when you come to sell your house, if you don't find a buyer who is willing to go along with the status quo, then you may end up getting hit for more taxes than you expected then.

They can come back later. Its not enough that the current seller pays, the contract should specifically agree the seller is liable for all. This may only be a key to claim back from the seller if the tax come back for more but its better than being sloppy and assuming. Also misdeclaring though entirely common does involve an offence.

Where did you get this information? Do you have specific examples of this happening?

Yes. Several.

Of which bit are you unaware, sceptical, concerned or whatever?

Interesting distinction between many attitudes expressed here compared to those in threads relating to Lee Aldhouse.

from phuketinsider blog:

http://www.thephuket...uket-office.php

Tilleke & Gibbins Close Phuket Office Posted: 01 Mar 2012 | 10:37 am

After almost seven years in the Phuket market, the well known island law firm with a focus on property, Tilleke & Gibbins has closed its Phuket office as of the end of February.

Speaking to Jerrold Kippen of DK Tax and Law, he has said "with notice and with the consent of the T&G Phuket clients, the law firm of Duensing Kippen) will be taking over professional responsibility for virtually all of T&G Phuket's client matters and files. They will be doing so from their Phuket office a short distance from T&G's former office. They are also taking over what was T&G's Phuket Plaza Del Mar, near the entrance to Laguna, for purposes of meeting with clients."

John Howard, former Joint-Venture Partner and Managing Director of T&G's Phuket operations, has joined Duensing Kippen in an "Of Counsel" capacity. It is expected that the new structure will create continuity for existing clients.

http://dktaxandlaw.com/index.html

http://duensingkippe...theoffices.html

Not necesarrily from what I understand. But your scenerio presents a potential load of complicated tax issues. Suggest you get them from someone who knows and not here on this forum..note they all think reference to their own forum's business or legal advisors threads or the Thai goverment offices is correct...but often is not, as I know from many years here doing business and as for example that article I posted and this thread of TV posters shows again.

Of course they are.

... Not that I ever even go, as my wife is certified in Thai massage. She learned from some of her friends ......

Lol, that does not sound like "certified" to me

My wife is spa trainer in one of the top-spa's on the island and she often gets new students who worked in these massage parlors. She started out there herself years ago. They learn the job from another massage lady who learned from another etc. They never had a proper training. Training time is limited to just a few hours and then it's time to earn money. Not like the top spa's where they go through 4 month of tough training, including theory. And if not good enough, they are out. The products (eg oil) used in the cheap parlors are quite often of debatable quality (cheap cheap) and may be harmful to your skin if used often.

Find the massage parlors used by the locals and stay away from any of those tourist traps in the main areas... They more often than not, have no clue what they are doing. It may feel relaxing, but a proper massage? Nope. 300 baht is still a bargain, but you get what you pay for

So the locals use the non-tourist trap top spas then?

My dear friend,

There's no problem here.

The Law-Firm you were dealing with has NOT disappeared, they simply amalgamated with another prestigious firm named

DFDL-Mekong Law Co., Ltd., which has offices in Phuket, Bangkok, Vietnam, Singapore, Hong-Kong et al.

Please simply contact my good friend Mr. Marcus Collins LLB at 081-867 12 17 or at his e-mail: <removed>

There's also a web-site: www.dfdlmekong.com which will give you all of their information, okay ?

Cheers,

Jaap

Thank you Jaap but I am looking for the main partner from Mr Collins firm, unless he too has control of the Thai nominees in my company and the BVI companies they charge me for every year that own my blue books and building permits here???

If not Mr Collins who are you looking for?

While OP is now walking away (briskly) I do wish to respectfully disagree with some issues raised above.

It's up to the land department whether they accept him as having a right to sell the property on the sister behalf.

If they don't accept it you will not be able to do the transfer. End of story.

If they do accept it and the deals goes through, it's done you already own the land, they can't come and take it back later.

The land office can make mistakes and sometimes more than mistakes. No liability attaches for the mistake of an official and in such circumstances the transfer can be rescinded and the OP would be left without the land and chasing the 'brother' for the money and he may be a man of straw. There is no reason not to contract directly with the seller and many valid reasons to insist on it.

Taxes are paid upfront before you do the transfer, they will not come around later asking for more.

But when you come to sell your house, if you don't find a buyer who is willing to go along with the status quo, then you may end up getting hit for more taxes than you expected then.

They can come back later. Its not enough that the current seller pays, the contract should specifically agree the seller is liable for all. This may only be a key to claim back from the seller if the tax come back for more but its better than being sloppy and assuming. Also misdeclaring though entirely common does involve an offence.

if you have a will, the obvious thing would be to give the house/land to your son, as foreigners cannot own land. if you have no will, you can be granted permission by the courts to sell the house or transfer it to your son. As far as usufructs are concerned, it seems the law firms only started peddling them after the 'start a company' route was stopped, because they made more money thay way. prior to that, there was no mention of usufructs. whether they will stand up in a court of law, i do not know, but if it helps you sleep at night, go for it.

I understand that they have stood up in court.

More importantly, it makes it difficult to transfer a chanote with a properlyregistered usufruct attached.

Of course they have 'stood up' and tehy do have their uses if properly understood, but this doesn't translate into all usufructs doing all that is now claimed for them - including by law firms posting on this forum.

A properly registered usufruct does not in any way make chanote transfer difficult. Less attractive but not at all difficult.

'Knight Frank Thailand's association director of research and valuation, Risinee Sarikaputra, said demand in the Hua Hin area would continue to rise'

Depends on a lot of things not least convincing stupid potential buyers with pure advertorial pieces like this.

Suggestions? Firstly speak to them / their boss. Consider what they say. Decide whether you need to change the locks etc. Breathe. Then consider maybe canvassing opinions on an internet forum. Then breathe and consider again.

Walk away, or perhaps run.

No time to check his contract under which he purports to be able to sell on her behalf?

Are we to assume he's suggesting no direct contract between you and his sister?

What else isn't there time for? even a cursory due dilligence?

tax is likely to be the least of your worries if you buy without checking amongst other things the history of the title, whether it was legally built (doubtful), whether any bulding (even a bungalow) is even allowed there etc.

&lt;deleted&gt;!!! I sell 3 bedroom houses with private pools and with a 48 SqM master bedroom for just under 6M!!!

Apples and oranges.

Check my website link in my profile.

Nice self promotion.

He will have a job removing my car from the dirve though

You think?

Classic. What was the lawyer's advice on that?

What do you mean? He did set up a company for me then with me as chairman (49%) and different nominees. I sold the house after 3 years with a small profit (app.2 years ago) and dissolved the company as the company was only there to own land/house.

It was a throw away comment more aimed at what we can tell about your lawyer.

Good for you, you broke the law, got away with it and profited.

There might never have been a problem with your illegal company structure but its anyway different from thinking a lease, mortgage or whatever to and from your wife gave some protection or even a brittle appearance of some when right from the outset it gave absolutely none.

It's not our place to speculate on whether you should or shouldn't trust your wife, but you talked of wanting protection and yet invoked the advice of a 'real thai lawyer' who is (i) giving wholly incorrect advise (if reported by you accurately) and (ii) has already assisted in setting up a company for you to commit an imprisonable offence and potential forfeiture of your investment (without clarifying whether he advised you of this).

You say you've now decided to trust your wife though I interpret your talk of offshore work and pensions etc that you may not be considering her entitlement (and trusting her) to anything beyond the land?

At the very least, good for you on that. I've posted here a number of times that usually I see the differing land rights for thai / farang relationships as a perfect reason to give the thai spouse the land from the outset, rather than just give the appearance they have the land in the hope of successfully breaking the law. I do sometimes wonder when posters talk of protecting themselves regarding land what provision if any they are making for their spouses should things go wrong, especially since they are already planning for it themselves!

If lease to you is granted by your wife it CAN be canceled. The lawyer is wrong, you misinterpreted them or you meant to post 'other than if its a lease from the wife'.

CCC Section 1469. Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be avoided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage, provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.

Well well, the lawyer I used today have helped me in the past with company set up for my previous house. Todays visit at his office was free of charge.

Have anybody here heard about a house lease contract wife/husband has been canceled, using CCC Section 1469?

Classic. What was the lawyer's advice on that?