thaiwanderer

in this case, you got it.

which case? discussed anywhere here or just contained in your head?

Whoever pays the property taxes is the legal owner of the land, case closed.

Next

Wholly incorrect.

Not incorrect at all, the property tax payment notification will be sent to the address on record. It doesn't have to be the actual location of the land.

The person who pays the tax acknowledges it is their responsibility to pay the tax, if they can show receipts issued for payment.

In a court of law it will stand. The judge will question why the owner on record had not paid it themselves and why the tax bill was being sent where it was.

If you feel it is wholly incorrect please explain why. I know of more than one case where this has been the deciding factor.

More than one case? decisively the sole criterion then

We can therefore dispense with the land code, land offices, chanotes (and lesser titles), squatters rights, competing ownership claims et al and just rely on tax receipts?

Hi Thaiwanderer.

Yes, I am very pro EPA's and both my wife and I have one.

Why? An EPA, unlike an ordinary Power of Attorney, will continue to operate even if the donor loses full legal capacity.

Simple.

Please, do look into it.

Look into it? How condescending

I'm well aware of the consequences of EPOAs hence me wishing to sound a note of extreme caution in your reference of them here.

Thaiwanderer,

in answer to your post:

"Well, if the purchase monies are inconsequential of course go for the least lawyer money and work - but since the OP is asking if 100k is expensive I imagine that's not the case."

Nothing has been mentioned re "inconsequential: or the moneys involved. What he is asking is: is100,000 baht expensive or reasonable?

Lawyers DO NOT charge for their services in conveyancing as a percentage of the purchase price. Its a set service basically the same for a 1 million unit or a 50 million home.

That said, yes, 100,000 baht is on the high side FOR CONVEYANCING.

"Assuming the purchase monies aren't inconsequential decent due dilligence is a must and 5 to 10 minutes contract review is laughable."

Forget the "inconsequential", please let us know actually WHAT due diligence would take longer than 10 minutes on a conveyancing brief and also why it is a "must" ? On a house purchase, it may be necessary, but on a condo purchase, thats debatable. Certainly on all the property I have purchased, a check of the contract, mortgages, report from the management (re condos) and a check of the title is all thats required.

"Rich or poor, who in their right mind would want an enduring power of attorney in any purchase? It should be matter specific and very tightly worded."

1) an Enduring Power of Attorney is MORE important per se than a Will. Much more.

2) an EPA is NOT related specifically to a Property purchase

3) an EPA by definition is NOT "matter specific". If it was, then we ALL would need one on each and every property and other major purchase.

I hope that YOU and all posters have an EPA. If not, speak with a lawyer and get it done...today !! It IS that important.

Also, please read my second paragraph in my original post:

But it seems though that they are looking to assist you in ALL aspects of setting you up in Thailand. If thats the case, then its probably a fair fee for the service + you have a good (hopefully) legal contact for life.

I think this says it all.

Firstly the OP was a little vague on what the purchase involved, his/her nationality and experience of Thai matters but at the very least needing to ask if expensive and the list of services being offered suggests this isn't merely a conveyance - its not a few forms and transfer at the Land Office.

Of course the fee shouldn't be based proprtionally on the scale of the purchase or the OP's ability to pay but these (especially the former) are relevant when assessing the expense. I'd care and take more care over my own 50 million purchase than 1 million. That's not to say the more expensive the fee necessarily the better the service or vice versa.

For contract review I can't see what can be usefully done in 5 to 10 minutes.

For (decent) due dilligence, even reading the history of the land from first registration / record at the Land Office to date would take more than 10 minutes - so hardly deeply researched and considered. What about the impact of City Planning and site visit by Lawyer etc etc.... let alone then fully reporting on findings.

MOST IMPORTANTLY you seem to understand the difference between an POA and an enduring POA yet still suggest people get them. Given the power they bestow (and relinquish for the Grantor) there are only very narrow circumstances in which they should ever be used and I can't understand why you would suggest them here? Perhaps you kindly could clarify.

Remember that only a fool buys without a lawyer checking everything. The Thai authorities can only act under the laws and legislation as it exists at the time. I doubt that most of them would lose any money if things have been done correctly.

That's the rub though. Many believe (or at least claim) they are operating in a grey area / loophole when often the structures are totally illegal and entirely transparent. For these, enforcement of current laws rather than retrospective legislation is all that's required. Without rehashing (too much) old and repeated thread issues here, past enforcement is no guide to future, a general countrywide policy change / 'crackdown' isn't necessary, real estate isn't some protected golden goose and even if it was would require Thai authorities not shooting themselves in the foot (unheard of I know ).

As always its all about appetite for risk which is very personal (as is the assessment of the scale of the risk and the relevant amount of money at stake).

Remember that only a fool buys without a lawyer checking everything. The Thai authorities can only act under the laws and legislation as it exists at the time. I doubt that most of them would lose any money if things have been done correctly.

That's the rub though. Many believe (or at least claim) they are operating in a grey area / loophole when often the structures are totally illegal and entirely transparent. For these, enforcement of current laws rather than retrospective legislation is all that's required. Without rehashing (too much) old and repeated thread issues here, past enforcement is no guide to future, a general countrywide policy change / 'crackdown' isn't necessary, real estate isn't some protected golden goose and even if it was would require Thai authorities not shooting themselves in the foot (unheard of I know ).

As always its all about appetite for risk which is very personal (as is the assessment of the scale of the risk and the relevant amount of money at stake).

Whoever pays the property taxes is the legal owner of the land, case closed.

Next

Wholly incorrect.

I suspect via succession (rather than by Will) the child's parents, in equal shares - as a foreigner you'd then be subject to a forced time limited sale.

See Civil and Commercial Code sections 1599 to 1755, especially sections 1629-1634.

AFAIK a child cannot make a will - at most (if at all) a Court would need to agree with a Will on behalf of a child circumventing succession, which I think unlikely since not in the child's interests?

Depending on what you are buying, 100,000 Baht seems high for the services you have outlined above.

But it seems though that they are looking to assist you in ALL aspects of setting you up in Thailand. If thats the case, then its probably a fair fee for the service + you have a good (hopefully) legal contact for life.

If you're just buying a condo, really, its a simple matter of having the contract checked over (should be standard) and if there are any "Special Conditions" to have these checked....perhaps 10 minutes work there. Translation is VERY important.

Due Diligence report: mmm, well this may or may not be necessary, depending on what you are buying

Contract review (when a contract already exists): 5 - 10 minutes work

Drafting of contracts: unnecessary if a Contract already exists

Drafting of a Power of Attorney: ENDURING Power of Attorney is what you need. This shouldn't cost more than 10,000 baht as PattayaParent has said

Assistance at the bank in order to open up the account in Thailand and obtain the necessary letter or form: you could do this yourself. Its simple.

Transfer at the land department (accompany you to perform the registration of the transfer of ownership, or perform this on your behalf): They should do it. Its a simple task done by a junior office person.

Translation: can be costly, but is important.

Consultation fee : time based, so I can't see what they would be actually "consulting" on.

All up, I would say that 50,000 is tops.

Well, if the purchase monies are inconsequential of course go for the least lawyer money and work - but since the OP is asking if 100k is expensive I imagine that's not the case.

Assuming the purchase monies aren't inconsequential decent due dilligence is a must and 5 to 10 minutes contract review is laughable.

Rich or poor, who in their right mind would want an enduring power of attorney in any purchase? It should be matter specific and very tightly worded.

Any seller willing to let you stay for a month to see what its like etc should receive a massively discounted purchase offer or no offer at all.

A little confused by the OP - if you and the child / children die - the wife squandering the child / children's inheritance ('leaving them in a poor state') doesn't apply, since they and you are dead anyway?

OP - unclear from your post who's the landowner and lessee and (depending on that) what / why you signed anything?

Anyhow, what does the lease say about building?

For anyone interested, we have decided to sell.

Making good profit on 15 year investment.

Has he left then?

In relation to the OP itself, given the differing legal rights (Foreigner / Thai) I'd suggest considering having the land and house in her name so as to make adequate provision for her on divorce (assuming you then marry.... and divorce, intend to make adequate provision for her..... and yourself elsewhere sensibly).

But you can lease it to someone, your child or whoever you want, and that lease does NOT expire when you die.

As always when this is raised, I respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree. See previous usufruct threads.

If you don't like, don't play?

Thailand (like every country) markets itself as many things it isn't (or more correctly government agencies with political aims and separately private businesses with commercial aims).

The laws are crystal clear, enforcement is patchy.

Getting rid of risk and lack of certainty while breaking the law is hardly something good for Thailand, or any other country.

Assuming you are a foreigner - you can own a condo unit...but it's a condo unit.

As above lifestyle dependent so very personal. Beyond that depends on your appetite for risk, also very personal.

Cheap .......or expensive, depending on the lawyer, your pocket and the property.

As lawyers aren't shy at charging I suspect given the middling fee its expensive for their service.

Since we're now speaking generically I've heard both 'land office taxes'/ 'real estate taxes' (imprecisely termed but different things) are going up, I've also heard they are going down.

I suspect the former but am not rushing to sell anything on that basis (tax tail, commercial dog).

But I consider all these whispers, rumours, comments from 'sources' / interested parties to be mere speculation

- rather than any sort of confirmation which was what the OP requested.

Is there a cap on the maximum term of a mortgage in Thai Law?

None, but if using a mortgage to attempt to enforce continued beneficial use its not entirely straight forward.

does any land office allow mortgage registered for more than 30 years?

Yes, but at the other end some refuse to register any mortgage where the lender and lessee or whatever is a foreigner or otherwise the intent is clearly transparent.

Wow, many good & interesting responses so far from clearly well informed folk, please keep 'em coming. TBH this all confirms what I already think (and I've been researching on & off for many years already), the intention this time is to identify any real or proven 'benchmarks' that may be out there from people that have already trod this path.

Even tho this topic has probably been covered many times in the past I feel this could help others to get their head around this whole business.

Unfortunately much of the discussion here is likely irrelevant to your situation since the landowner has no intention of honouring a renewal.

Therefore is she really going to remain the landowner when the time comes since a transfer will be very easily defeat any purported claim you have over the land itself?

and as landowner has no intention of granting another 30 years, I would look at other clauses in lease.

Is there an option for lessee to transfer to freehold to another Thai national or Thai co ltd? if, not it seems you used a useless lawyer

This and many other 'clever' clauses are worthwhile including on the off chance - but have you ever managed to enforce such a clause?

Interesting ideas but surely unworkable assuming the property is used as surety for a loan.

As mentioned before, the law of the land always takes precedence, no matter what wording is in the contract agreement. In other words, if it could be proved at any time in the future the intention was to circumvent the law..all would be lost..as is the case with any who think they are being smart by buying in a bogus company name etc.

While in general agreement, not all bogus companies are the same.

You may wish to put it in the name of an offshore company owned by you and your wife.

Is there a cap on the maximum term of a mortgage in Thai Law?

None, but if using a mortgage to attempt to enforce continued beneficial use its not entirely straight forward.

No, but since a lease is materialized on the deeds and recorded at the land office and since a mortgage carries over to the next owner in case of property transfer, the mortgage could be used to guarantee financially the 30+30+30 lease by making the lease payment a mortgage.

The renewals can be defined in the mortgage contract as mortgage repayments.

Of course, the owner could choose to repay the mortgage, but due to accrued interests, this option would be costly.

I agree that it is not entirely straight, but since the mortgager has the choice of renewing the lease or repaying part of the initial sum (which was paid for 30+30+30) plus interest, this can not be construed as unfair.

It is more a financial guarantee than a control on the land itself.

If not illegal for some reason, this method would ensure that the person leasing the land will get a big part of the money back if the lease is not renewed as stipulated in the 30+30+30 contract.

Of course this idea is a bit adventurous.

Not adventurous at all.

They can, have been and continue to be used in various ways (though some land offices refuse to register them when the structure is too transparent or unsophisticated).

If used they are best as just a part / add on.

Is there a cap on the maximum term of a mortgage in Thai Law?

None, but if using a mortgage to attempt to enforce continued beneficial use its not entirely straight forward.