sheff_mick

Bangkok Post, Published: 4/05/2009 at 12:00 AM

BANKING

Banks asked to cut foreigners' ATM fees

By: SOMRUEDI BANCHONGDUANG

The Thai Bankers' Association will ask local banks to cut fee charges for foreign cardholders using local ATMs, according to association secretary-general Twatchai Yongkittikul.

He said the TBA would hold talks among its members about current fees.

But he cautioned that any cuts would likely be marginal, as most of the fees represented charges imposed for international network access and simply passed on to end-users.

Since mid-April, foreign cardholders withdrawing funds from local ATMs have been charged 150 baht per transaction.

Dr Twatchai said the fee largely came from new transaction charges imposed by international service providers MasterCard Worldwide and Visa Worldwide to cover interchange network costs.

Local banks, which had previously absorbed the expenses, are now looking to pass on their own operating expenses to customers, arguing that the fees charged in Thailand are in line with expenses charged for cross-border ATM transactions in other countries.

Dr Twatchai acknowledged that a number of foreign tourists and expatriates had complained about the added fees.

Shortened version re. Thai Visa obligations

Ref url for the complete article is....

http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/econom...igners-atm-fees

Edited by Sheff_Mick for brevity

Theres only 1 team in Sheffield now and they play at don valley stadium. Come on you mighty Millers

Im the same though i look out for all the local results, i hope wednesday and donnie get beat each week and the second united and barnsley draw

No probs T.M, I always look to see if you win. ( unless you are playing the Owls of course in cup comps. ect. )

Apologies for saying Arena by the way instead of the Don Valley, not only to you but my city.

I always get them mixed up due to their close location to each other, and not engaging the old grey matter.

Anyway well done this season, you did brilliant in spite of those <deleted> who penalised you, in fact better that considering having to move to Sheffield and settle in there.

Poor old Stockport are now suffering a similar fate, penalty wise.

WALOW,s the FA are !!!!!!

SM

Edited, before our collated posts become a book.........SM

Hey Mick

Another one from our neck of the woods here....Born and bred Blades fan

Grew up in Dronfield but me Mums side owned few pubs.

The Sicey Hotel at Shiregreen

The Brunswick Hotel in Haymarket, City Centre

The Beauchief Hotel at Beauchief

The Crosse Scythes Hotel at Totley

notice that we went from the rough end of town to the posh end!!

Great to see us both in the premier league one day....

Hiya BF

Nice to see others from the Sheffield Supporters club.

By eck that Brunswick was a right place to run, you certainly had a rough few years between that and the Sicey.

Our kid lives at the bottom end of Abbey Lane, opposite the golf club and the Beauchief is his local.

Needless to say the don,t think i,m up to it visiting them, Sister In Law,s become a right toffee nose top hat and like many, has forgotten where she came from.

Football is beyond her, while my brother is a closet Blades supporter.

I remember when he bought the bungalow, he change the bathroom and did everything in red, including a f.kin all red tiled shower area.

I went crackers when i saw it and told their lass I was going to have a piss in the back garden

Her face was a picture, never could understand us, the miserable git

We give him some right welly if he opens his mouth about ? ..........as you do of course.

Anyways, a warm welcome fellow Sheffielder, it,s nice to see you on the thread.

As for the Premier League, you are nearly there, sadly we will be awhile longer unless some rich Arab comes in with a few quid.

Mind you, it,s not so bad in the Champions League, with plenty of good teams in it and the pies are a bit cheaper.

I hope you do it Saturday, without having to go through the unpredictable play offs

But again for <deleted>, don,t say i said so back in Sheffield.

S_Mick

Football supporters who are Clickish, stand together and do not even want to hear or listen to relevant honest views of individuals who are not considered part of their regular group.

Sheff. Mick

A proud Owls supporter of many years and especially so, irrespective of the ups and downs that many of us face as long term genuine supporters.

Good grief Mick.

Not only are there more than one Blade on the forum,,,also an Owl.

My Grandad used to go to both Utd and Wednesday games supporting Sheffield,,,,,,,,,,,which is strange cos he was from Wrexham.

Hmmmm....says a lot for Wrexham.

I agree with what you say about the cold shoulder,,,,the game dont need it.After all football is a social game and should be enjoyed by all (even though the team you follow lost twice in one season to their local competition.....but we,ll not go there will we Mick ...... please).

Na then S.H.

Eh up ah tha goin, sithee

I,ve been noting your presence on the forum for awhile now, when i go on it from time to time.

When i,m out here I always look for the local results, ours ( both ) and Rotherham,s ( now playing at the Sheffield Arena of course.)

Didn,t they do well when you consider they had a 17 point deduction at the start of the season, added on they would have been in the promotion group.

( lower league teams getting over the top penalties and finacial deductions are not on IMO )

As if they don,t have enough on their plate trying to keep their teams competitive ect., those <deleted> at the FA and the other authorities aren,t fit for the other abbreviated version F*kc All

It is nice to have fellow locals about and i have no bad jives about our respective teams out here.

I noted there is a lad from Rotherham on site as well.

Sorry about the potential move from the league.....oops sorry !!! they have a good chance of going up, not down.

I,ll be watching the developments and wish you all the best for promotion.

See, i,ve got the away from Sheffield part of my ??? in gear and it is easy to do so, out here.

Back home though the banter and crack is a different matter, especially among family, relatives and old work mates.

I,m a Cross lad myself and as such support my local team SWFC, bred into me via the vicinity being near the ground and family of course.

Where do you from to become a SUFC supporter, most of my mates who support them also live in the vicinty of their ground, Heeley and Gleadless ect.

Live as in brought up there of course.

Good luck anyway SH and i hope you go up, but don,t quote me in Sheffield <deleted>.

Cheers mi ol pal and take care.

SM

P.S.

Of course i wont go there......... not until i hit Sheffield again next month, hopefully

( can,t wait to give em some stick about it ???? )

Reason for edit Bold letters in the wrong places

Football supporters who are Clickish, stand together and do not even want to hear or listen to relevant honest views of individuals who are not considered part of their regular group.

Sheff. Mick

A proud Owls supporter of many years and especially so, irrespective of the ups and downs that many of us face as long term genuine supporters.

Of topic i know, but for me the graphic images shown on the Bradford fire disaster where horrendous in as much as seeing all those people litterally on fire ad running about ect. was very hard to take in.

While the Hillsborough disaster was far more so of course and so heart wrenching watching the unthinkable develop and unfold.

We are truly sorry it happened on our watch and all that happened leading up to it with the factors increasing the human loss of life as it developed.

There is plenty of blame to share among those who made up the collective reasons and causes as to why so much human loss of life took place.

They will have to live with it all forever.

It in no way equates or compares to the suffering of the loved ones who lost their kin on that day.

One is of guilt, the other is of unconsolable heartbreak and heartache.

We can all reflect on the " if only " scenarios, but sadly it will not bring them back.

For me if only the fences had not been there, or the access gates had been big enough and double openers there would have been somewhere for those trapped to escape to on the pitch.

I know i keep saying it, but how very saddened we all where and will continue to be so.

SM

Why are some people using tabloid headline phrasing on this thread? "96 Innocent People". Do you see references to 1517 innocent peole dying when the Titanic went down? What about the innocent 9/11 deaths? Or 50 innocents die in Summerland fire? Or...

People have said the they have read the Taylor Report - there were two reports produced so which of the two have they read?

In the Final Report, Taylor says "Having made my findings as to the events at Hillsborough, I do not in this report say any more about them save by way of illustration." (Final Report - ISBN 0 10 109622 4 - Introduction, para 13, page 2.

Would anyone care to comment on the following from the Interim Report

At the back of the crowd fans were frustrated by the lack of progress as 3 o'clock

approached. Some, mostly young men who had been drinking, tried to push and force their way forward. At the front, people were jammed together and against the turnstile walls. Some panicked as the pressure intensified. Some youngsters and women were fainting and in distress. They were helped out through the tubular barrier by turnstile G or were passed over the turnstiles elsewhere. Fans climbed up and over the turnstile building or on to the dividing fence. This was to escape the crush rather than to gain free entry since most of them had tickets. [interim Report (ISBN 010 1076525) Part I, Chap 3 Para 64]

At 2.48 pm, whilst Mr Duckenfield was considering the request, gate C opened to eject a youth who had climbed in with no ticket. Immediately, fans outside took advantage and about 150 managed to get in before a mounted officer enabled the gate to be closed again.

[ibid. Part I, Chap 3 Para 67]

The FA had also laid down in a memorandum issued in the 1985/6 season measures to be adopted by the away club which included the following:-

"It is the responsibility of the away club to advise the home club of the recent behaviour of their supporters at away matches, irrespective of whether the behaviour has resulted in disciplinary action by the Football Association or not".

It does not seem that information of this kind was passed to the Sheffield Wednesday Club or played any part in the South Yorkshire Police plans. Had the latter been informed of the history contained in the dossier and summarised above it may well have influenced police strategy in Leppings Lane.

[ibid. Part II, Chap 1 Para 218 & 219]

The presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem.

[ibid. Part III, Chap 16 Para 268]

Thank you is not adequate enough for this very important information, Mr Hippo.

Roy Hattersley, Richard Caborn, Clive Betts and David Blunkett have all tried to expand on these comments, of which i was unable to give precise and relevant information about, so had to keep my referrences to them brief.

All we have ever wanted is the truth about these above mentioned observations especially the surge from outside that I repeatedly mentioned.

I did mention in one post that was deleted during the split MiG kindly did for us to enable discussions and hopefully the ceasing of the commonly used " tabloid headline phrasing on this thread? " "96 Innocent People" as you describe it MR H

This now being a discussion thread, that i,d hoped it would no longer be used as a reason not to post my observations as an eye witness and what i and many others saw like wise.

I also mentioned about the mounted policeman being physically lifted and moved by the surge of the crowd, along with the families being frightened and distressed that i,d witnessed from my vantage point ect. ect. that i described on the bridge.

Only now it would seem i was not imagining things, or words to that effect, and telling lies ect. while others seemingly took the " Final Taylor Report " as gospel, refused to accept my experiences, one of many eye witness version of events, and dismissed it as rumour mongering and much much worse, ect. ect.

Thanks to your sterling work in locating this document, much of what i have been trying to put across can now be verified.

NO gloating as a result by the way, just one of relief that eye witness reports really should and do matter against written ones especially when the full implicatons of certain actions re crowd surges and unruly whatever one wishes to call them are less than complete and very much understated.

Lots of people including myself in Sheffield and this includes the more well known local Members of Parliament and other local dignitaries see the crowd surges from behind and outside as very critical

Can anyone honestly say that had the surges from the back and outside not happened, the same tragic circumstances would have occured, while I cannot speak for everyone else, for me personally I reckon not.

When it gets to build up time on the field and kick off with the crowd cheering and even during the game......

How many times all you sports supporters, especially footy ones have you been pushed and shoved, sometimes in very frightening circumstances have you experienced similar worries and concerns.

There, but for god, go all of us, fate wise, even today and even after all that has happened over the years up and down the U.K.

SM

i dont feel an urgent need to close the thread

but at the same time, is there really any sense in keeping the thread running, as there seems 2 main opposing ideas, and neither are willing to listen to the other side anyway

perhaps everyone just better drift off away from this thread and carry on with less emotional subjects?

regards

Thanks MiG, for your common sense moderating on these 2 threads and this referrence, relating to this side of the split you did for us all, which i happily take on board.

Respectfully

SM

Edited for a spelling mistake.

The Star Date: 27 April 2009

Disaster cop 'bullied' into changing statement

A POLICEWOMAN who attended the Hillsborough Disaster claims she was bullied into changing her statement in a huge police cover-up.

Special Constable Debra Martin is the first officer to admit changing a statement - 20 years after 96 LIverpool fans died in a massive crush at Sheffield Wednesday's ground.

Ms Martin made a statement telling how a 15-year-old Liverpool fan died her arms at 3.55pm.

But she claims she was branded a "liar" and forced her to change the time in her account to 3.15pm - to hide the fact he could have been saved.

Coroner Dr Stefan Popper brought in a cut-off point at the inquest, ruling all victims were dead by 3.15pm.

But Ms Martin says a teenager Kevin Williams was still alive 40 minutes later.

Ms Martin, 45, a dental nurse, is believed to be among at least 12 officers who it is claimed was ordered to change their initial statements.

The policewoman was in the Leppings Lane End when the crush began on April 15, 1989.

curious as to why you put the word 'claims' in red. don't you believe her or something?

Oh dearrrrrrrrrrrrrr Stevie

It is highlighted in red to show it has yet to be made fact, as far the bold, it highlights the significance of what her statement contains and implies re one of the ongoing complaints relating to time...3.15 as against 3.55

P.S.

I would have put it in the discussion thread had i intended my post to highlight something as dishonourable as you are maybe suggesting.

As this was split from the other half of the thread, out of respect, may i suggest you respect inclusions like this one as genuinely offered just as it mine was intended.

The Star Date: 27 April 2009

Disaster cop 'bullied' into changing statement

A POLICEWOMAN who attended the Hillsborough Disaster claims she was bullied into changing her statement in a huge police cover-up.

Special Constable Debra Martin is the first officer to admit changing a statement - 20 years after 96 LIverpool fans died in a massive crush at Sheffield Wednesday's ground.

Ms Martin made a statement telling how a 15-year-old Liverpool fan died her arms at 3.55pm.

But she claims she was branded a "liar" and forced her to change the time in her account to 3.15pm - to hide the fact he could have been saved.

Coroner Dr Stefan Popper brought in a cut-off point at the inquest, ruling all victims were dead by 3.15pm.

But Ms Martin says a teenager Kevin Williams was still alive 40 minutes later.

Ms Martin, 45, a dental nurse, is believed to be among at least 12 officers who it is claimed was ordered to change their initial statements.

The policewoman was in the Leppings Lane End when the crush began on April 15, 1989.

I know for certain that it was a minority of mindless thugs and idiots ( no let,s not call them supporters ) who i keep referring to and in doing so have tried to seperate them from the majority of genuine supporters who suffered as a consequence, who do not deserve to be lumped in the same way, and it should also apply to the police force.

you keep mentioning that and you're still wrong. your personal anecdotal evidence of an incident pales in comparison with an independent formal review. you're just wrong about this, get over it.

The second word for you is OFF on this latest misinformed observation.

I wasn,t aware that a reasonable guy like kopite needed you to respond for him re my reply to him.

Those idiots can thank their lucky stars Taylor didn,t choose to investigate them further, as for the many eye witness statements on this, mine was not an isolated one, i can assure you.

Our local MP,s are well aware of our thoughts and observations in relation to them !!!!!

you continue to be offensive and to insult the memory of 96 innocent people who died at a football match by maintaining that fan behaviour was to blame in any way. your one personal isolated incident was not mentioned in the taylor report and as such has no bearing on the reasons that 96 innocent people died at a football match. your continued embarrassing pursuit of this line of argument can only mean that you are either a] a really tasteless wind-up merchant or b] too ignorant to realise the stupidity of your own words.

How sad your one sided take on my views have become, along with your far from the truth observations on my objectives.

Perhaps you haven,t got the message as to why this was opened as a separate thread yet, have you ???

MiG did so to enable other peoples observations on what they saw ect. ect. or think relating to all sides of Taylor report.

For and against.

We are not zombies and do engage our brains before posting our thoughts without having to accept things we consider are incorrect or covered.

A bit like yourself of course,but rest assured we all want the truth to come out in our varied opinions

The split was suggested a few days ago by several members to enable everyone to post their views, without disrespecting those who died.

The other half of the split continues in it,s rightful form and rightly so.

You can of course go on there and read an appropriate post of genuine respect for those who died and their loved ones.

As the title of this thread indicates, this one is about differing views and discussion, it is not about slagging posters off, just because they wish to offer their personal take on certain areas that are relevant to them.

SM

By the way, what gives with all the abusive language you seem to like using to get your arrogance across.

Just wondered and also if it is indeed not being disrespectful to our forum.

I know for certain that it was a minority of mindless thugs and idiots ( no let,s not call them supporters ) who i keep referring to and in doing so have tried to seperate them from the majority of genuine supporters who suffered as a consequence, who do not deserve to be lumped in the same way, and it should also apply to the police force.

you keep mentioning that and you're still wrong. your personal anecdotal evidence of an incident pales in comparison with an independent formal review. you're just wrong about this, get over it.

The second word for you is OFF on this latest misinformed observation.

I wasn,t aware that a reasonable guy like kopite needed you to respond for him re my reply to him.

Those idiots can thank their lucky stars Taylor didn,t choose to investigate them further, as for the many eye witness statements on this, mine was not an isolated one, i can assure you.

Our local MP,s are well aware of our thoughts and observations in relation to them !!!!!

P.S.

Engaging ones brain first comes to mind when discuassing things on a forum

EDIT

So many incidents have happened over the years that should have served as an example and as warnings, but no, we carry on in the same negligent ways, safety wise ignorant and all that it encompasses

please read this mick http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/6HFDDutyOfCare.pdf

no one blames the people of sheffield, the south yorkshire police force and the FA were to blame, the ground was inadequate, as were many in those days. the leppings lane end was unsuitable (and still didnt hold the correct safety certificate, even after "improvements") to hold a huge game with huge numbers coming into it. your right, other grounds were just as bad.

You,ve said it all for me in this paragraph in regard to my secondary concerns and a genuine thanks for posting it kopite.

While it may not make up for the reason why no proper recognised certificate was held.

On SWFC,s part they employed a team of safety experts who advised them on the modifications ect. and they took it for granted, rightly or wrongly that this was o.k.

<deleted> were the authorities and the more importantly the incompetent F.A. " we only care about money and income " doing not making sure the correct safety certificate was held by the club and it was suitably policed ect. ???

FA in another context is applicable in their case.

You have, as i,ve already mentioned, encapsulated most of what my concerns are as an owls supporter

end of my edit

but, the police force on that day were a f***ing disgrace. as i said, please read the PDF, as should others.

Re the PDF, i read it yesterday kopite and yes it is good.

I,ve also read many other web sites via google since the RIP thread was started.and found many of them a good read along with comments of an unbiased nature, giving balanced thoughts and comments of what we have been trying to put acrossto each other.

I think it would be a fairer assessment re the police force if you could seperate the ones responsible for overseeing and controlling the situation for me that means the actual leadership responsible for the police-ing.

I know for certain that it was a minority of mindless thugs and idiots ( no let,s not call them supporters ) who i keep referring to and in doing so have tried to seperate them from the majority of genuine supporters who suffered as a consequence, who do not deserve to be lumped in the same way, and it should also apply to the police force.

I,ve only noticed a short while ago, the much appreciated seperation of the tributes and this the discussions

I,ve already posted a thank you to MiG to thank him for seperating the two issues in the RIP thread.

By doing so he has rightly humanised things, for me anyway.

He has displayed a very respectful and sensitive acknowledgement on the tragedy and the isues it brings to the fore via his moderating.

The priority being the rememberance of those who lost their lives and their loved ones left behind.

Closure needs to happen in a dignified way that,s befitting first of all for 96 and their loved ones and only then for the rest of us.

SM

guys....

I try not to MOD the footie forum, as JS is much more capable of it.

but assuming hes not online as much recently, and given Ive only looked at this thread now

Ive split the thread into a new one (if you'd like different title for any of the 2 threads let me know....and ill see what i can do

please send me a PM as not always online

also Ive deleted some posts, and edited others that quoted them. so you may find that some posts are missing and not in either of the threads. do not be baffled.

lets keep it respectful and civil.

cheers

Thanks for your much appreciated moderation and judgement which i for one desperately needed to happen, mod wise you have paid much respect to those who diedwith your sensitive intervention

Respect will and should always be the priority of all of us for the victims and their loved ones left behind.

RIP 96, you will never be forgotten

SM

Its human nature to push your way into a must see game, so whilst this obviously caused the event, they cant be blamed, IMO it was a tragic accident that could have been prevented, but no one, including all clubs couldnt really have given a sh7t about football fans then.

Anyway i was at this game at Hillsboro one of Newcastle fanzines has wrote a good article about, if memory serves though i was in the seats and wasnt aware what was going on, in these games we used to take 15000 to Sheffield.

The paragraph starting "A crowd of 41,134 is recorded for this game" shows this wasnt the first time crushing was a problem here. -

http://www.true-faith.co.uk/tf/features.ns...ca?OpenDocument

off topic but I for one would love to see Sheff Wed back in the top league, theyre undoubtably a very big club.

Thank you very much SM for a much needed, unbiased and what i consider fair assessment of the incident.

Thanks also for your kind thoughts and remarks about the owls and their present status in the champions league.

RIP 96, you will never be forgotten.......respectfully

BBC News, last updated at 09:37 GMT, Sunday, 26 April 2009 10:37 UK

ref url... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8019103.stm

Bail in Defoe brother death probe

Jermain Defoe did not play for Spurs against Manchester United

A man arrested in connection with the death of Jermain Defoe's brother, has been released on bail.

Jade Defoe, 26, suffered serious head injuries in an attack in Leytonstone, east London on Monday and died in hospital on Friday.

A 28-year-old arrested on suspicion of perverting the course of justice has been released on police bail.

Jermain Defoe was withdrawn from the Tottenham Hotspur that lost 5-2 to Manchester United on Saturday.

The attack took place about 1700 BST on Monday in Walnut Gardens, near the junction with High Road Leytonstone.

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: "We do not believe a weapon was used during the assault.

"We retain an open mind as to any motive and inquiries continue to establish the full circumstances of the incident."

The arrested man was first arrested on Tuesday.

He was released on bail, but was re-arrested on Friday and questioned at an east London police station.

A spokesman for Tottenham Hotspurs said: "All at the club wish to extend their condolences to Jermain Defoe and his family following the death of his half-brother."

^Check your PMs.

I,d like to place on record if I may, my appreciation and gratitude to MK for continuing to PM me several times over the last 48 hours.

His understanding and patience while leading me to a successful conclusion where outstanding to say the least.

Thanks again MK and many kudos are deservedly given by myself.

sheff mick

In reference to the addressing of the Leppings Lane safety after 1981, modifications took place and these must have been taken into account prior to awarding the semi final to SWFC.

With reference to the death trap observations, by Kopite

Prior to the tragedy they must have considered it safe before awarding the semi final, when sadly and tragically only after the event was it was proven otherwise, hindsight is certainly wise afterwards, sadly and unfortunately

Hillsborough was barred as a venue for major neutral matches and only allowed to do so again in 1987 after modifications were made to the pens. Those modifications were designed to make policing easier.

If i may be allowed to also mention the term Death Trap could easily be applied to many different sports stadia across the U.K., even now in 2009.

Again, sadly, hindsight is constructive only after something goes tragically wrong.

Two other tragedies that could have benefited from hindsight, where horrific, and like Hillsborough, I can still see with my minds eye, are Ibrox Glasgow in 1971 and Valley Parade Bradford in 1985.

I am not in any way being derogratory, just offering them as examples by the way of other preventable incidents, in hindsight, when applied.

So many incidents have happened over the years that should have served as an example and as warnings, but no, we carry on in the same negligent ways, safety wise ignorant and all that it encompasses

ITN news via Yahoo UK news 1 hour 33 mins ago

Ref url

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090425/tuk-fo...ta-dba1618.html

Footballer's brother dies after attack

The brother of England footballer Jermaine Defoe has died after a street attack, it has emerged.

Jade Defoe, 26, suffered serious head injuries in a brutal assault on Monday afternoon in Leytonstone, east London.

He was taken to a central London hospital where he died on Friday night.

The attack took place between 4.15pm and 5pm in Walnut Gardens, near the junction with High Road Leytonstone.

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: "We do not believe a weapon was used during the assault. We retain an open mind as to any motive and inquiries continue to establish the full circumstances of the incident."

A 28-year-old man was arrested on Tuesday on suspicion of perverting the course of justice in connection with the investigation.

He was released on bail, but was re-arrested on Friday on suspicion of the same offence and remains in custody at an east London police station.

A post-mortem examination will be held at East Ham mortuary later.

Jade Defoe, also known as Gavin and Esco Bars, was popular as a grime MC on the urban music scene.

Half-brother Jermaine Defoe did not travel with his Tottenham Hotspur team mates on Friday for their match with Manchester United because of Jade's death.

A club spokesman said: "It is a private matter and we await details."

May he RIP

As far opening a new thread on what i got sucked into by the mention of " The Sun " and the dreaded fences and why they were erected ect.ect.

so you think the fences were erected at hillsborough as a result of heysel do you? so there wasnt fences in the 1981 spurs - wolves semi then? heysel was 1985. so spurs fans didnt have a problem then on that day?

in 1981 Spurs played Wolves in an FA Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough, and Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans eight years later, were allocated the now notorious Leppings Lane end.

Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans that went after them, felt that the ends were badly allocated. Leppings Lane was perceived to be the smaller end and should thus have been given to the team with the smaller travelling support. But this was probably just perception, and switching ends would sadly just have switched the suffering from one bunch of fans to another.

Spurs fans were sent through the concourses that led to the various pens behind the goal. And those directly behind the goal were the most popular. So just as pens 3 and 4 filled to dangerous levels in 1989, the same part of the ground filled dangerously quickly in 1981.

People were crushed not because of surging support or bad behaviour, but simply because the spaces between the large metal fences were too small. Indeed there was a feeling even before then, without benefit of hindsight, that the supposed capacity of Leppings Lane was overstated and unsafe.

watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9--vyouphBw

hillsborough was a death trap, hence why the ground was banned from being a semi final venue for years (edit, after 1981), and why it never held the correct safety certificate, its why fans in 1981, 1988 had problems (crushing) and why 96 innnocent people lost their lives in 1989.

I have said it before and i will say it again........Why did the powers that be choose to ignore these important observations you highlight ?

There seems to be a lot of un accountability here that needs exposing.

The FA and the authorities who sanctioned this semi final instead of refusing permission to stage it, for starters.

Unruly thugs and no brainers ???? did IMHO have accountability as well, but for some reason it wasn,t forth coming.

to be fair sheff mick, your uneducated about both disasters, you have your views and youve stuck to them. the information on both disasters is out there for all to find. the rest of the uk will know it soon.

JFT 96

Hiya Kopite,

Seems i need to broaden my reference to the Heysel tragedy.

SWFC would have liked to get rid of the fences and there was serious discussion ongoing to do so before the Heysel Stadium incident.

After that, they sadly stayed in situ.

I never considered the Sun a newspaper and did not read what was said in it about the tragedy at Hillsboruogh, it just seemed to kick my objections to a certain area that i commented on, off again.

( I have not been tempted to, nor wanted to, research it either, by going back and trying to locate the publication )

There is plenty of blame and finger pointing to go around so many events leading up to the tragedy, during and after but sadly it will not bring the tragic loss of life back.

If only the idiots who pose as supporters around the world could be re educated and brought to task on their mindless, selfish behaviour that to this day has not ceased and sadly is still accepted and tolerated as a part of the beloved game.

The players have much to answer for in this area also, as they incite agressive displays and the repetative violence, week in and week out.

There is sadly i fear, another tragedy waitng to happen that could easily be avoided via re education and example, both on the field and off it.

P.S.

I purposely did not edit your post even though it has been repeated already, it is after all fair comment, we SWFC supporters, took it for granted that it had been addressed in some way, when obviously it was not.

No excuses and this should also highlight all the other clubs out there who fall well below the safety standards, ( still ) and welcome supporters into their stadiums while ignoring their obligations on this important issue.

Also to possibly convert my itunes to an MP3 player format for my pick up CD / MP3 player.

I only get 20 tunes on a CD and want to download a lot more.

Not sure what you mean by the above, but anyway: For ripping from CDs, personally I wouldn't use anything but EAC. I rip to FLAC, then convert to MP3 if necessary, but EAC will also rip direct to MP3 using the LAME encoder. EAC has a lot of settings. If you're not comfortable with this, I'd suggest using MediaMonkey (make sure you replace the LAME DLL file in the MM directory with the current stable version from here). Whatever software you end up using, make sure it uses the LAME encoder and try and rip to at least V2 (VBR). Also, if you're using iTunes as a player, I'd ditch it and use MM instead. iTunes has a nasty habit of messing around with ID3 tags. Also, don't use iTunes to rip anything, it's rubbish.

Hiya MK

I,ve downloaded both IMG and MM.

Img appears to have downloaded successfully and i can open it from the D Top icon.

MM has also been downloaded but i cannot open the programme and all i get when i try is an enlarged image of the Logo and copyright written at the bottom.

It will not proceed from there and doesn,t respond further so i have to end the task via the task manager to close it ?

I managed to access the help facility but couldn,t locate a reference to this problem.

I,m tempted to uninstall and try again ????

Also to possibly convert my itunes to an MP3 player format for my pick up CD / MP3 player.

I only get 20 tunes on a CD and want to download a lot more.

Not sure what you mean by the above, but anyway: For ripping from CDs, personally I wouldn't use anything but EAC. I rip to FLAC, then convert to MP3 if necessary, but EAC will also rip direct to MP3 using the LAME encoder. EAC has a lot of settings. If you're not comfortable with this, I'd suggest using MediaMonkey (make sure you replace the LAME DLL file in the MM directory with the current stable version from here). Whatever software you end up using, make sure it uses the LAME encoder and try and rip to at least V2 (VBR). Also, if you're using iTunes as a player, I'd ditch it and use MM instead. iTunes has a nasty habit of messing around with ID3 tags. Also, don't use iTunes to rip anything, it's rubbish.

Thanks for the info and advice MK.

Re. the reference for the pick up.

Instead of using my ipod as a direct route in the pick up ( don,t want to tempt anyone to steal it )

I want to rip / download my music to a CD with most of my tunes on it, which is possible if i can convert them to MP3 format.

..............................................................................

Recently the ipod manager ??? said it wanted to upgrade my lists from my ipod and i declined as i didn,t want to risk loosing my personal downloads i,d put on it.

The next time i connected to itunes it did a download without my authority and i lost over 500 songs i,d put on over a couple of years.

Was i pissed of or what.

I tried to recover them but couldn,t.

I won,t ever trust them again and now delete any update info ect. without even opening it.

Never mind, experience is a useful thing and in my case compliments your observations.

It was a case of starting a new list which i will eventually save in a special folder.................just in case.

Thanks again

^You mean something that can rip CDs to MP3?

Yes please MK.

Also to possibly convert my itunes to an MP3 player format for my pick up CD / MP3 player.

I only get 20 tunes on a CD and want to download a lot more.

Thanks again

Any recommendations for an audio CD to MP3 free download please.

Thank you