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outre99
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It's funny how people keep on mentioning about the rice scam. This program is designed to help the farmers. There are other programs that the government has done such as 30 baht medical program and funds for the military to upgrade military machinery. These are considered loss investment programs. However, they serve other purposes. They do not generate revenue like business investments. Are there any evidences that the money was put in their bank account? If it is, then it's considered corruption. So far, it is just a speculation because of the loss in this program.
it's even more funny how people post about issues they have little understanding of. This latest incarnation of the rice subsidy has to do with helping farmers as much as Yingluck has to do with governing. This scheme was conceved by Taksin & Co. as a way to corner world rice market and make serious dough. One might ask how i know this. Well, by looking into how this scheme was designed and implemented. For starters, the poorest rice farmers with small volumes were explicitely excluded from this scheme. Instead of paying farmers directly and allow the estabilished rice distribution and sales channels to operate, this scheme took posession of the rice, which incurred additional unnecessary costs for storage. Farmers were not paid for their rice right away, instead they got and IOU pieces of paper. The stored rice was withheld from the open market. These peculiar features seem rather incongruent with the stated purpose of this scheme, to help farmers. It only makes sense if you look at it as a play to corner the market and drive up the prices.
Unfortunately the genuises who came up with this load of c...p were too stupid to account for other rice producers who stepped in to satisfy the unmet demand and left the red government, Thai taxpayers, and many farmers holding an empty bag. In the process they've bankrupted countless farmers, rice processors, and exporters, destroyed Thai rice industry and its reputation on the world market. This kind of stupidity and vast documented corruption in the execution of the scheme is unprecedented even by Thai standards. She was the head of the government and the head of this wretched scheme and she should be held accountable togehter with the cronies who profited from this disaster.
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In the original newspaper article it states: "They hate the Shinawatras who they accuse of fostering massive corruption and draining the kingdom's coffers to sweeten Thaksin's rural electoral base in the poor but populous north and northeast."
First off I don't think the Shinawatras invented corruption in Thailand. That is an institution that is rife at all levels of public and private enterprise. Don't blame that family for corruption. What most of the people hate, including TV posters, is the fact that they family has amassed wealth. This wealth did not come from massive schemes to loot the public coffers. That being said surely they used power and influence to conduct business dealings and also tried to avoid taxes. So who hasn't taken deduction or some other scheme to avoid tax whether it is 5 million dollars or 5 dollars. Is what Thaksin did with regard to the land purchase of his wife disgraceful, you bet. My point is this type of use of position, power, and money is rampant in Thailand. The righteousness of some here is appalling.
Now for the accusation of draining the kindoms's coffers to sweeten the rural electoral base. Of course that has happened. Is that so unusual. It happens everywhere. That's what the tax system is about. Mostly what taxation does is take it from some and give it to others. Has not Obama done the same thing with his health care program. It is nothing more than a massive scheme to give health care to the poor at the expense of others. Welfare, foodstamps, etc are all the same. It is a massive redistribution of wealth. Some may argue that this is needed in modern societies but none the less you are taking from Peter to pay Paul. I know many who are relying on the 30 baht health care scheme, a Thaksin, program. Where are the complaints about that?
So for those of you so vehemently opposed to the Shinawatra clan, get over your indignation and open your eyes. Corruption in Thailand is all around you. It is one both sided of the political spectrum. Suthep's past is as dirty as it can get and you are supporting his ridding the nation of the Shinawatras mostly for the reason that Thaksin amassed vast wealth. If you have read about his business, you will see that this wealth was amassed through business dealings, not looting the public coffers. There is no doubt that Thaksin has probably used what would be considered unethical means to conduct business but he is no better or worse that people like Suthep. Do you really believe that Suthep is seen the light now and will not seek to profit in the future from his connections in government IF he should be successful in his revolt. He will stack the government with his people who will be beholden to him.
The only reason I have been against this PDRC "revolt" and court actions against Yingluck is that I see it as corruption on an even larger scale. It takes a public election and completely voids things through the actions of a few. Let the electorate decide what the results of the elections should be and who should be running the country. To me what Suthep did in blocking the elections is nothing more that obstruction of the will of the people. His crimes are, at least to me, much worse than anything Yingluck did in office. She is being blamed for allowing corruption in the rice pledging scheme and I would bet she never received a baht from such corruption or would have allowed it if she had the power to stop it. It is all a farce. You might blame her for being weak and inefficient but I really don't think after what happened to her brother she is a crook. Was the rice pledging scheme an attempt to help the farmers, you bet. Was it a failure, you bet. Did she profit from it monetarily, probably not. This scheme surely was an attempt to help the farmer and win votes. But so is Obamacare, and all the other schemes cooked up by governments around the world to appease the poor masses and maintain a voter base.
The difference is in the magnitude, accountability, and intent. And on all those scales the red governments have been much much worse than anything else.
The shere magnitude, shamelesness and impunity of Taksin's corruption knows no equal. Saying that everybody takes a tax deduction in defence of what Taksin did during the sale of his telecom business is naive at best. No he didn't just make use of an existing tax deduction. He used his power over the rubber stamp house to pass that deduction into law and then he made use of it. It that's not an abuse of power i don't know what is. Taksin did not create corruption, but he took it into stratasphere.
Corruption existed before Taksin but it was moderated by society. You could skim of the top but you had to share. Taksin did away with any kind of moderation or accountability. By leveraging his populist cult of personality and easily manipulated/paid voters he managed to climb to the top of the power pyramid and challenge complacent rulling class. Many great figures in history have done that. But the reason we now call them great is because they've accomplished great things with that power. They built empires, discovered new lands, encouraged science, technology, and architecture. The modern day business tycoons who are universally admired are the likes of Gates and Buffet who are spending their enormous fortunes to improve the world and help others. Taksin is lusting after power and wealth for their own sake. He's not a great leader of the downtroden masses, he's a ruthless demagogue using the masses for his own ends. Thinking people see that and that is why he is hated, not because he was a successful businessman.
Now let's talk about wealth redistribution. You are correct that citizens pay taxes to the governments, which in turn spend that money on programs that should benefit the society at large. That's the way of the world. The biggest difference is that it seems the successive red governments have a peculiar approach to spending tax baht. Except for the 30 baht medical program, which incidently is the only successful populist program and which seems to be the basis of the undying devotion of the red masses to Mr. T, the rest of the schemes went down in flames at a huge expense to the taxpayer and a handsome profit to the government connected cronies. The biggest difference between government programs in the US and other western countries and in Thailand is accountability. If even a fraction of the funds that the red governments lost over the last 10 years were found out the responsible officials would be out of a job and probably under legal enditements. US congress would drag the responsible parties and the white house offcials into multiple hearings, subpoenas would be issued, records collected, etc. etc. That's accountability, and it doesn't exist here. The anti-government protesters on the streets want that to change.
A few words about the rice sheme. Any thinking person would and have looked at it and questioned its motives from day one. If the original intent was to help the poor why were the poorest hundreds of thousands farmers excluded from it. Why try to corner the rice stocks in this contrived way instead of just giving farmers subsidies and let them sell their products through the normal channels. Most of the money would go to the farmers and the administration and logistics costs would have been minimal. Incedently that was exacly what Democrats did. The latest sheme's final form begins to make more sense when you find out that it was concieved by the Taksin's inner circle as an attempt to corner the world's rice market, drive up the prices and then make huge amount of money. At the time Thailand was the top rice producer in the world, so their logic might have made sense to a 5th grader. But what happened was quite predictable by anybody familiar with the supply elasticity. Once Thai rice was pulled from the world markets other suppliers stepped up to satisfy the demand and the red government found itself paying above the market price for rice that they could not sell. Over time the quality deteriorated, the money ran out, and the rest is history. They have tried to sell this fiasco as a populist program. And the uneducated and uninformed farmers actually bought that. What's your excuse?
You are correct in pointing out that Suthep's past is a blamished one. But using that as the defence for the Shin clan and their proxies sounds like a school yard retort: "But he started it". Suthep is not the embodiment of the anti-Taksin sentiment, he is simply an accidental conduit. Taksin is a product of the shameless, ruthless, greedy corporate culture. He's been a member of the Carlyle group for many years rubbing shoulders with the global moneyed elites. His loyalties lie not with Thailand and its people but with his own self-interest and the interests of his corporate supporters. That is another reason why he is opposed by the traditional Thai elites, because they know that if he prevails Thailand will be fed to multi-nationals like a nice tropical snack.
Lastly i'd like to address the "let electorate decide" nonsense. Elections are not the same as democracy. A true democracy requires informed citizenry participating in the selection of their leaders who openly compeete for votes on the merit of their record and their ideas, while independent agencies ensure fair elections, keep the citizenry informed, and hold the government responsible. Thailand does not have a functional democracy. It's similar to the US in that respect.
The warring political camps have transformed into an ideological-mlitant complex focused on the ritual of elections while corrupting the spirit of democracy by indimidating opposition candidates and voters, buying votes with impunity, and spewing propaganda that would make Goebels and Stalin proud. After seeing the continuous disasters that all of the recent red governments created an observant person would question the validity and viability of the current democratic process. Now i don't necessarily agree with all of the PDRC proposals but the fact that current system must change is indisputable. All levels of society should be involved, it should be discussed and debated, and ultimately adopted for the sake of all Thais.
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Sutheps final attempt to tear the country totally down !
Let's all hope he does not succeed .
Actually, he isn't trying to tear the country down, he's trying to tear the Shin Dynasty down and let's hope that he succeeds.
Yes let's hope that but if he does don't bother coming here whining about things didn't turn out as you wanted.
Ah, the will of the ignorant and the deluded.
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Oh yes the ignorant and deluded poor red masses keep fighting and dying so a billionair and his cronies can rape the country and have a comfortable life in Dubai while they with the rest of the country are left holding an empty bag. I thought for sure that the rice sheme fiasco will hit them and their families where it hurst. But these people are too stupid to connect the dots, hence the succession of incompetent and corrupt governments.
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That's about as succinct as one can make it. Pheu Thai and the UDD believe that whatever the majority sanction becomes right, or legal, or constitutional. Period. The right to defy court rulings. The right to break laws. The right to dismantle checks and balances. The right to pass an amnesty bill that would absolve Thaksin and over 25,000 other people convicted of corruption. The right to unfettered and unchecked corruption in the implementation of social policies. To Pheu Thai and the UDD, a mandate gives them the right for all of that. No functioning democracy in the world believes that. Every functioning democracy in the world has stringent checks and balances, and every functioning democracy in the world demands respect and adherence to its courts' rulings.
First of all, I am not aware of any "Red" ever stating that whatever the majority "sanctions" is automatically right, legal, and/or constitutional. Any particular Red you have in mind, or is this merely your own hyperbolic reading?
Second, democratic politics is at the core about reciprocity. What is especially unattractive about the Thai opposition and its proponents is their wholesale abandonment of the golden rule.
While they themselves indignantly expect not only law-abidedness, but submissive and silent law-abidedness on the part of their opponents, they themselves feel free to engage in (or support) wholesale wrecking of the most fundamental part of the democratic process through naked force - I.e. by sabotaging elections and staging military coups, or through legal manipulation and deceit that often approaches black comedy.
This unpalatable blend of naked cheating and indignant insistence on the tremendous importance of "checks and balances" and the "rule of law" is the primary reason why there is roughly zero sympathy with the Yellow/PDRC/Democratic (pick one or more depending on your outlook) cause outside of Thailand.
Finally, it should be pointed out that the focus in Thai politics on mass mobilization is a direct result of the repeated and unceasing attempts of the Yellows/PDRC/Democrats to gain power by sidestepping the formal democratic process using varying blends of violence and subterfuge. When they stop cheating at politics, peace will return to Thailand, but not sooner.
Any particular opposition leader or spokes person in mind, or is this merely your own biased reading?
The tragedy of the situation is that while both camps scream about democracy and constitution neither actually abides by nor understands what these terms mean. Your statements can be applied to both camps. The red complaints about the subversion of the electoral process, which you echo, sound rather hollow when one considers the current lawless electoral process: vote buying, opposition voter indimidation, threats against opposition candidates. There are some districts up north that are simply too dangerous for the opposition to campaign in. There's actually a whole formalized movement of Red villages and towns. Do you really think that anybody in those vilages is allowed to freely decent? All they need is the little red book and the transformation is complete.
You rightly mention Checks and balances, rule of law, transparency, and accountability as requirements for an open and democratic society. But somehow you forget that it were the successive Red governments that have repeatedly demonstrated complete disregard and active aversion to all of these. Starting with Taksin's drug war and extrajudicial killings, political meddling in the business of independent agencies and courts, financial mismanagement, appointing cronies to power, silencing whistle blowers, squandering public funds on ill concieved mega projects and policies, repeated incompetence and bad decision making without consequences, using parlamentary majority to ram through legislation designed to benefit a single individual, rejecting the authority of the courts when it doesn't suit them. On and on it goes. And all done with impunity. This is not a government that it interested in democratic principles.
Even if the red parties started out as the champions of the people as you paint them at some point any rational person has to look at their actual record and realize that these people are bad at governing, that they don't have the best interests of the country and its people at heart, that the system that keeps returning them to power is broken and needs to be changed. Winning elections in a broken, fundumentally undemocratic system does not make a democracy. The difference between the old elites and the new red ones is that the old ways were based on traditional codes of conduct and valued moderation, honor/face, and the long term survival of the system. While the new Taksin ways are akin to slash-and-burn approach designed to extract as much wealth out of the power position as possible in as short time as possible. And damn the long term consequences. Is the old system of patronage is unfair to the poor? Yes it is. Has the Taksin "revolution" bring fairness and progressive change to benefit the poor in any meaningful and sustainable way? No it hasn't. Have the red governments demonstrated the desire and ability to govern fairly and build a better future for all Thais. Clearly and demonstrably not.
So if the "formal democratic process" keeps giving power to incompetent, shortsighted, and corrupt governments there's something wrong with the process and it needs to be changed. I think the majority of Thais outside of the hard core partisans would agree that the current situation is not viable. So who would have enough clout and moral authority from both camps to devise and implement such a change. Realistically in Thailand there's only one institution capable of doing so. Hence the proposal's of an appointed assembly to make the course correction to get the country back on course. Western media lacking the nuanced understanding of the Thai history and power structures and encouraged by Taksin hired PR and law firms keep pushing the simplistic narative of "bad" elite loyalists vs the "good" populist reds, which has very little to do with reality just like your above post.
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You should be saying the same thing for the PTP. Instead if doing it for elitist they do it for Thaksin. No difference at all. You just prefer a Thaksin regime instead of elitist. Which would be the lesser evil? Neither!Suthep is a seditionist. The Thai press should not aggrandize him as some sort of freedom fighter such as an Ernesto Guevara or Mohandas Ghandi . He is a disruptive seditionist who fights for a "privately appointed" set of leaders to further advance the cause of the elite establishment.
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The difference is that the previous status quo was based on the centuries old patronage system (just like in the western societies until very recently). One of the guiding principles was the concept of moderation, which was probably derived from Bhuddism. It ment that you take some apples from the tree but you leave more in order for the gardern to continue and others to participate. When Taksin came on the scene he changed the whole game. He didn't just take all the apples he put the fence around the tree. There was an excellent editorial article describing the roots of this conflict. I lost the link but i'm sure other members can post. The apple analogy is from the article.
So the root of the problem is not democracy, or access to privelege, it's the irreconciable difference between the traditional attitudes that value social "moderation" and "honor/face" vs the new cut-throat, winner-take-all, lie-with-the straigh-face-about-everything approach of Taksin. It's the difference between the classy, refined, and honorable old money, and the garrish, brash, selfish new money. The populist policies were just the means to an end and as such were short term by design. Painting Taksin as some kind of "people's champion" is myopic and disingenuous. Under the guise of pupulist policies he managed to inflict great damage to the country's reputation, treasure, and stability. Instead of compromising with his oponents for the sake of the country he has continuously made decisions governed by the my-way-or-the-highway approach, and of course pure greed. That attitude was instilled in all of the latter iterations of PTP party and its politicians. If there was any kind of transparency and accountability I suspect that the red crowds would lose a lot in numbers and enthusiasm. The Rice scheme debacle has demostrated that plainly.
None of the current warring camps have a viable vision to lead the country to a better future. There's a vacuum of ideas and a "grand vision" that could unite Thais dispite their socio-economic differences. Unfortunately there's no leader that can embody that vision and convince others to follow it. It's a historical opportunity for a 3rd party of progressive elite, technocrats, and moderate populists to come together and offer a new way.
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Typical! Blame someone else. The family should first realise that their son was riding a bike at odd hours of the night without a crash helmet. That in itself is irresponsible and should go down to poor guidance from the parents. Societies acceptance of a lack of helmet does not help either. Yes, the Russians should have made a police report (it did not state if they did), and stayed back to closed up the loose ends of this accident. That is what it was an accident.
Either way, even if they had stayed back the end result would still be the same. A senseless death, why? because of clear disregard for safety.
This is more of the family not having the opportunity to milk money off these Russians for the loss of their child. IMHO.
So, let me get it straight. According to the article, the woman did a U-turn and hit a teenager on a bike. The husband was following her in another car, they saw the kid was dead/dying and they decided to flee the scene.
In Western countries, that right there would be enough to get her in jail for fleeing the scene and for not providing assistance to the kid.
In addition, the article doesn't say anything about the kid being at fault, besides him failing to wear a helmet. And, yet, you turn that into "an opportunity for the family to milk money out of those poor Russians???" That is widely uncalled for. They're the ones who now have to live without their child while those Russians just took the first flight home.
Edit: The article actually says he was driving in the same direction than the woman. Since she was making a U-turn, the kid had the priority over her (he was driving straight on), at least based on what has been reported.
Unless he tried to pass her on the inside of the uturn completely ignoring all signs like the break lights indicating that the vehicle is slowing down for something and a possible turn signal indicating the intended change of direction. As both a driver and motorcycle rider in Thailand i see the boneheaded behavior on the road every day. Not looking ahead and adjusting speed/direction accordingly in advance is at the top of the list. Not looking behind before executing a vehicle manuever is the close second. All cars have blind spots in their back view mirrors. If the kid was riding in one of the spots and then tried to go straight on the inside of a turning car the driver would have had no idea that he was there.
Now the behavior of the husband is inexcusable and he should answer for it.
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I like Peter Singer's way of discussing the ethics of helping others.
If you were wearing your very best clothes and shoes and you saw a child drowning in shallow water, what would you do ?
Go in and get him/her , What Else ?
But you might ruin your clothes and shoes.
Only a few thousand dollars, no big deal, compared to a child's life.
You can save a child's life in some countries by donating a few thousand dollars.
Ah,,but......
..........................................................................................................................................................................................
Some will reply and rightly say how much is siphoned of by charities and other reasons for not going that route. But closer to home ?
The ethics of charity are always complicated by considerations of viability and opportunity cost. Emotionally I feel sorrow and compession for this little girl and her parents. Intellectually i can't help but wonder if the resources, which are finite, that would be required to cure not one but 2 "incurable" conditions that are aflicting this poor girl might not be better spent on treating several children with less serious conditions.
I used to be an EMT (Emergency Medical Technician) working on an ambulance part time. Both on an ambulance and in the hospital emergency room the method of medical triage is the accepted practice of determining the most efficient allocation of medical resources between several patients. As heatbreaking as it is sometimes the circumstances force us to make painful decisions in order to help the most number of patients with the time and resources we have.
This is applicable not only to individual cases but to national and even international aid initiatives. This is not an attempt to trol nor the provocation for a flame war but an invitation to a thoughtful discussion.
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Well looks like they just got lied to again, right into their faces. And they still believe they're going to get paid by this government. I guess you can't blame the desperate for having hope. It's the same as buying a lottery ticket and hoping to strike it rich.
Nope. They were given a face saving way out of being used by Suthep.
The farmers have a legitimate gripe, but they realize that the government has done its utmost to get them their money. It doesn't take a genius to realize that Suthep has done everything he can to block their payment.
The rice farmers may not have much love for the government, but they are not about to help a group of thugs who ridicule them and that has the potential to hurt them more.
Would you be so kind and provide evidence of you assertion that "the government has done its utmost to get them their money... and that Suthep has done everything he can to block their payment."
The current fact is that the government stopped making payments months before Suthep's protests started due to the fact that the rice scheme could not sell enough rice and ran out of money. Which was predicted by Thai and Western economists who advised the Thai government not to continue with the scheme after its disastrous performance in the previous year.
Here are some more facts:
- As designed the scheme did not cover millions of small farmers because their volumes were too low. If the government really wanted to help the poor farmers why leave out the onese who need the most help?
- From day one the scheme controls were lacking which resulted in all sorts of abuse: double counting, foreign rice being pledged, poor storage conditions resulting in bug infestation and rot, etc. etc.
- The official who reported these abuses to PM was summarily dismissed and her reports discredited.
- A very small percentage of the funds actually ended up helpting the farmers. The millers and resellers took the lion's share, not to mention the skimmers.
- And don't forget the hubris and stupidity of trying to corner the global rice market by buying and holding vast quantities of rice at 40% premium over the market rates.
I do understand the uneducated and unformed red rank and file who keep drinking the coolaid and worship mr T thatnks to the worthwhile 30baht medical service that he institued years ago. But for a person like yourself with an opportunity to find detailed information and presumably an intellectual capacity to review and comprehend said information to keep spouting factually lacking red propaganda is trully bewildering.
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I think reasonable people can agree that elections is not the same as democracy anywhere in the world. In addition to "Free and Fair" elections democracy requires informed, participating citizenry, a real set of options to vote for, and most importantly respect for the democaratic process.
None of these prerequisites exist in Thailand. Come to think of it they don't exist in the US either, but that's besides the point.
To claim that somehow the reds are the champions of democracy while the bad yellows or whatever their color is seek to destroy it is preposterous. The reds similar to US Republicans have spend a lot of time stacking the system in their favor by often questionable means. Patronage, pooyai bribery, and vote buying have been used to subvert the weak democratic process in order to deliver winning results. The current system is not a democracy and must be rooted out and changed in order for Thailand to move ahead.
Unfortunately the people who are championing this position have not been blessed with the sharpest minds and have committed blunder after blunder, which essentially discredited them and precluded any chance of reasonable negotiations.
Both camps have employed mass street rallies, indimidation, and violence to subvert the proper democratic process and have demonstrated complete disregard for democracy as a concept. At least the yellows are honest about it and they have a point.
If the Thai masses behave this way they might not be ready for democracy and should leave the true governing to people who are qualified to make complex and important decisions for the country. The last few years of the red government have demonstrated that the people in charge now have no clue or business of running the country. The experience has been shokingly similar to whatching children playing house.
One might have reasonable debate about the degrees on either side but to come out and say that being against reds is like being against democracy is rather childish. You might want to go and play house too.
I really wonder how the hard core reds can convince their rice farming neighbours to continue voting for the incompetent PT after the whole rice pledging debacle. At least rice farm subsidies under Democrats were paid on time.
Many seem to be shouting war and trying to ignite one. All caused by one single person for greed and desire of greatness. 64 years old and gathered billions. Still it's not enough. How does he think he can return to Thailand and live? Become president of the north? It will not happen.
One really has to be a blind fool to write such rubbish. So you are against democracy?! Go back to your home country, Thailand does not need your kinds of expats!
The point you miss is :
The red shirt protests in 2010 were calling for new elections. They felt the judicial system had been perverted, they were disgusted by the Abhisit/Newin handshake and agreement to form a new parliament after the courts had stripped PPP of power.
All Yellow/PAD/PDRC protests, in 2006, 2008 and 2013/14 have been asking for coups, no elections, removal of democracy.
In my opinion of course.
The point i was trying to make was not partisan but rather existential. The current political system in Thailand is not a functional democracy. The current government has demonstrated on many occasions that they are incompetent, shortsighted, and corrupt. But due to the enduring disfunctionality of the Thai democracy they keep getting elected without any kind of accountability. This situation should be an afront to any Thai citizen informed and thougtful enough to see the whole picture. Unfortunately the ones that do are in the minority.
And since the whole system has been hijacked by the Thaksin aparatus, and the main opposition party can't seem to figure out how to win elections, and there's no other way to reform the system from within it is no wonder that the people have taken to the streets not only against a particular government but against the broken system itself. Now i'm not defending their barely coherent and utterly unthought through demands. Unfortunately the leaders of the protesters were not able to create nor communicate a plan to heal the country which leaves all of us at the current impass.
I do sincerely hope that a new group of Thai politicians will emerge in order to step into the leadership vaccuum created by the current players, which seems highly unlikely. Barring that a military coup followed by an appointed government of experts is the only way for Thailand to a better future.
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I think reasonable people can agree that elections is not the same as democracy anywhere in the world. In addition to "Free and Fair" elections democracy requires informed, participating citizenry, a real set of options to vote for, and most importantly respect for the democaratic process.
None of these prerequisites exist in Thailand. Come to think of it they don't exist in the US either, but that's besides the point.
Get Real! These pre-requisites you speak of don't exist anywhere in the world. Most developed nations have a choice of only 2 parties with any hope of winning elections and nothing changes no matter which one wins. Elections are no more than a waste of time and money. The US is the best example of how much time and money can be wasted on elections.
In the meanwhile, these countries (all countries) must do the best they can which is to decide upon leadership by public vote.. but the problem is people here don't believe in that system anymore even if they once did.
The moment the tanks rolled in when Thaksin was abroad, they ****ed up any chance of any system working. 100 years will not be enough time to see peace here. Some countries just cannot handle democracy in any form. Thailand would probably do best under a dictatorship or communist government...
Start packing. Get out while the going is good.
I am real and i agree with everything you state. US system has been hijaked by the entrenched intrests of the corporations with the media doing their best to fan contrived culture wars to keep the uninformed public distracted. The only places where democracy still survives are those wealthy northern European countries where people are still participating and hold their politicians accountable.
But a point must be made that the myth of democracy being the best form of government everywhere and at all times is a falacy. Just like in learning or exersizing significant results must earned by significant struggle. And once won the results must be maintained and nurished with a mighty effort. The US has shown us what happens when that effort waines.
Thai people as a whole did not go through the struggle for democracy nor do they really understand what it truly means let alone be willing to fight for it. There are many reasons for that. Cultural defference to seniority and authority, poor civics education, ubiquotous corruption, etc. etc. But in the end of the day if the conditions are not right, and the gardener is not interested the tree of democracy will not take root and thrive.
IMHO Thailand will do well to look to Singapore for the political model that might better match the realities of the current situation. A benevolent dictatorship with the progressive nationalistic and economic goals executed by smart technocrats with a long term vision might be exactly what Thailand needs. Let the adults run the country for a change.
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I think reasonable people can agree that elections is not the same as democracy anywhere in the world. In addition to "Free and Fair" elections democracy requires informed, participating citizenry, a real set of options to vote for, and most importantly respect for the democaratic process.
None of these prerequisites exist in Thailand. Come to think of it they don't exist in the US either, but that's besides the point.
To claim that somehow the reds are the champions of democracy while the bad yellows or whatever their color is seek to destroy it is preposterous. The reds similar to US Republicans have spend a lot of time stacking the system in their favor by often questionable means. Patronage, pooyai bribery, and vote buying have been used to subvert the weak democratic process in order to deliver winning results. The current system is not a democracy and must be rooted out and changed in order for Thailand to move ahead.
Unfortunately the people who are championing this position have not been blessed with the sharpest minds and have committed blunder after blunder, which essentially discredited them and precluded any chance of reasonable negotiations.
Both camps have employed mass street rallies, indimidation, and violence to subvert the proper democratic process and have demonstrated complete disregard for democracy as a concept. At least the yellows are honest about it and they have a point.
If the Thai masses behave this way they might not be ready for democracy and should leave the true governing to people who are qualified to make complex and important decisions for the country. The last few years of the red government have demonstrated that the people in charge now have no clue or business of running the country. The experience has been shokingly similar to whatching children playing house.
One might have reasonable debate about the degrees on either side but to come out and say that being against reds is like being against democracy is rather childish. You might want to go and play house too.
I really wonder how the hard core reds can convince their rice farming neighbours to continue voting for the incompetent PT after the whole rice pledging debacle. At least rice farm subsidies under Democrats were paid on time.
Many seem to be shouting war and trying to ignite one. All caused by one single person for greed and desire of greatness. 64 years old and gathered billions. Still it's not enough. How does he think he can return to Thailand and live? Become president of the north? It will not happen.
One really has to be a blind fool to write such rubbish. So you are against democracy?! Go back to your home country, Thailand does not need your kinds of expats!
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That's because of Global Warming!
Record cold temperatures around the world won't stop the global warming industry with their dire predictions.
There's always an idiot regurgitating somebody else's nonsense. Hey Einstein, Global Warming is real. The everage temperatures have been steadily rising. 2013 was the warmest year on record. But the vast complexity of the climate system means that this rapid global temperature increase will manifest in extreme weather events all over the planet. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT WILL BE WARMER EVERYWHERE. What it does mean that the weather will become more extreme, which is exactly what is happening right now. Arctic blasts in the Northern hemisphere, record heat waves in Australia, more powerful storms, more rain, longer droughts, etc. etc.
School dismissed.
Now you can stick your head back where it came from.
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The article goes on to say:
'Mr. Anurak claimed he did not notice the bridge in front of him, which was only 2.8 metres high above ground, as he was focusing with the leading car. Moments later, his tour bus, height 3.3 metres, crashed squarely into the bridge.'
'
I'm sure we all at one time or another found ourselves following another car through an unfamiliar darkness. The driver's story does make sense as one tends to become completely focused on following the leading vehicle. Add to this an old/faded/covered/non-existent sign indicating the height of the bridge and the disaster is complete. Of course, the driver lost major points when he ran away.
But based on the facts from the article i will speak up in defence of the driver as there clearly were other factors beyond the driver's control that made significant contributions to this unfortunate outcome.
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Lol potatoes in the exchaust?
Omg..... Just because not everybody isnt a nerd that dont mean that "we" not selfconfident or have lag of attention.
Everybody is different and have different hobbys... Unfortunelty the nerd sitting at 3am with a book on his balcony and the rude , stupid,<deleted> , lag of attention freak pass by with his bike or car and play loud music?! <deleted>?!?!
It disturbs me too to see nerd with their weird pants and xxxxxx shirts reading books at the gates on one of those benches there... And??? Do i blame anybody?
Thats really over acting !!!!
And the potato and suger thing....shows how nice person u are to destroy other people property. Congratiulations!
If i see nerd with their glasses next time next time... Should i smack their heads on the street to broke their glasses? I think not good idea...
Live and let live!
That's exactly the idiotic line of reasoning that i hear from my neighbors who love to crank up their music while five of them are sitting 5 feet from the speakers. I guess that bass is required to massage their likewise fragile egos. And when we politely ask them to turn it down we're met with the same sentiment: "Farang doesn't know how to live with neighbors. Farang go home." Looks like you've been in this country way too long and your sense of consideration and respect for your fellow human beings have evaporated, if you posessed them in the first place that is.
All that talk about nerds reading books with their glasses is exactly at the 1st grade level. I wonder how they gave a motorcycle license to a 7 year old.
But let me spell this out for you. "Live and let live" doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want and other people have to suffer or go away. It means you treat other people with respect and consideration and you will treated in kind. How would you like it if a whole bunch of car stereo enthusiasts parked right outside your door and decided that it was a perfect place to finally determine who had the loudest setup. Would you be as care free and forgiving? My guess that within an hour you'll out there telling them to go elsewhere. So why would you think that other people will be overjoyed to be disturbed by your overly loud mechanical noise that has no rational purpose whatsoever. Yes we are all different and like different things. I, for example, do not understand the attraction of covering one's body with tattoos. I think it's stupid and shortsighted. But i live and let live for a simple reason that they do not force their behavior on me. I don't preach to tattoo fans nor do I demonstrate in front of tattoo studios. But the second these inked folks start forcing their way of life on me i will be defending my right to live with a natural skin coloration. It's the same with the loud noise. If you personally like loud noise you're absolutely welcome to indulge either through headphones, sound proof room, or in the middle of nowhere. But when you start forcing this on other people against their will you've crossed the line into sociopathy.
So which one are you, a child or a sociopath?
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Hang on a minute - The US subsidies its farmers - Never see that happening in Thailand
Thailand sell shrimp to America no problem How about rice
But America sell pork to Thailand NO NO No
you must have had one too many of those american pork sausages and all of those chemicals went to you head. but the rest of us don't want that poison here not because it's made in America but because it will kill you
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Step by step, the Thais are having their freedom taken away...
With freedom comes responsibility. So if one cannot handle one's freedom in a sane manner it should be taken away.
Over the years of living in the kingdom i have come to believe that most of the problems that plague this beautiful country, starting from mundane every day frustrations to the corruption to criminal public policy comes from the cultural inability to think a few steps ahead and consider consiquences before acting.
When Thais launch the ever-larger rockets causing loss of property or life, or just stop at the end of an excalator forcing everybody else behind them to trip over each other, or make a u-turn across 4 lanes of busy traffic causing a backup of dozens of cars, or take over an airport or the city center causing immeasurable damage, or execute a rice scheme that essentially ruins the country's rice industry, a thoughtful observer wonders how they not consider the consequenses of their actions. What was going through their heads to make them act that way. I don't think most Thais are malevolent or stupid. The only other logical explanation then would be that their mental calculations do not award as much importance to planning a few steps ahead. It might not even be concious thinking at all. Something akin to the innocent selfishness of children who simply haven't developed the mental awareness of the world around them nor the necessary skills to navigate in that world.
Despite being obsessed with formal politeness and social face Thais seem rather selfish and incosiderate unless they know somebody personally. I keep thinking back to last year when i read of people taking apart sand bag barriers because they felt it was unfair that their neighborhood had flooded but others had not, so they thought it would be a good idea to spread the misery around.
I've been in the country only 8 years so am wondering if this is a new social phenomenon. Would be curious to hear from the old timers.
Lastly, these are just personal musings and NOT an attempt to knock down our adopted home or start a flame war.
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2.4Million in drugs and this
XXXXXexpect leniency? If you see the results of drugs and the destruction it causes, you too would throw the switch as would I, in a heartbeat.If the social and personal damage were the main factors determining the punishment alcohol and tobacco manufacturers and retailers should have been taken to the back and shot long time ago. But they are not. The punitive approach to drugs has been discredited by all serious studies and by negative results that the multi-decade multi-trillion dollar war on drugs had produced. Most people can consume alcohol, tobacco, drugs, or food for that matter in a proportionate, healthy, and responsible way. They should be able to ingest whatever they want as long as they are not harming others. Some people have phsycological problems with addictive behavior towards any of the above substances. They need medical and community help, not prison. The public policy should be focused on the majority and stay out of personal lives. The minority should be offered help and support programs. Decriminalization is the onle sane public policy approach not only because it will stop destroying lives and filling up prisons with non-violent users, but because it will move durgs from the black market where they fuel more violance into the legal market where they can be regulated and taxed just like alcohol and tobacco.
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And what of Somchai in his overloaded pickup truck, or the rich kid in his sports car, barrel assing down the highway and lane changing like there is no tomorrow? And let's not forget all the wanna be Sterling Moss's on the road too.
Are these also not serious road hazzards? Not only to themselves, but to all those around them too.
All of this could be solved by a) having a good public service campain that runs 24/7/365 educating people about the rules of the road and road safety, and b: just having the police actually do their job.
I have but one rule during any Thai holiday. And that is, I stay OFF the roads.
I'm all for a public education campaign of how not to stay in the passing lane driving under the speed limit, or how trucks should stay in the left 2 lanes, or how to use rear view mirros when contemplating a lane change. I drive regularly from Rayong to Bangkok and back and i have to be one of those drivers who are "changing lanes like thre's no tomorrow" because it seems that the concept of the rightmost lane being just for passing is lost on a large portion of drivers. These halfwits just love sitting in the right lane going 10km/h below the speed limit. Come to think of it, what i see on the highways is not too much speed, it is too little speed where it's required and a lot of boneheaded unpredictable behavior. I can't tell you how many times i would set cruise control to 120 (which is the speed limit on 7) and would be passing cars like they were standing still even in the right 2 lanes. I think it's the face thing, they probably think that it would be unseamly to drive in the "slow" lane in their late model sedan so they go 100 in the right lane ignoring the dozen or so cars that are backed up behind them. After living here for the last 7 years i've been forced by reality to recognize that overall Thais are shortsighted and selfish. The concept of being courtious to others, including other drivers, seems to be as unknown as the concept of speeding up down the entrance ramp in order to merge with the flow of traffic instead of trying that from the dead stop.
As others pointed out the enforcement of any rules is non-existent. The only police presense i've seen are the occasional speed trap on 7 and a lot of road blocks shaking down motorcycles for tea money. Cars double and tripple parked, trucks blocking all lanes of traffic going 30, boneheads doing a u-turn across 4 lanes of traffic, Somchai's delapidated pickup doing 50 in the right "fast" lane, that's all no problem. I think the solution here is to officially incent cops with a % of the ticket revenues, but the focus can be finetuned by varying the amount according to the type of offense. That way the actual enforcement can be streamlined for certain offences that have the most consequences.
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Hi Jullian,
many people here have different experiences. I've been running a small guest house and restaurant on the beach in Rayong. I opened it for the beach lifestyle and because my wife is an excellent cook. I wasn't in it for the money but more of beach lifestyle since i have a separate online business. My main requirements were not too far away from Bangkok, good infrastructure and internet connection, nice beach and low costs. I managed to find all of those just 2 hours south east from Bangkok on Maeramphueng Beach. We bought the business from an Italian guy who wasn't doing much with it and started our dream. My main focus was to provide clean affordable accomodation to fellow travellers and in the process we met a lot of cool people and had a great time. Of course, as with anything else, there are also the downsides, but running a guesthouse in Thailand doesn't have to be as difficult or stressful as others here are making it out to be. If that's what you want to do, I say , go for it.
Feel free to email me at bookings[at]maerabeachhouse.com if you have more questions. We're actually planning on making a move closer to my wife's family so the guest house will go on the market in a couple of weeks. I'll be happy to answer any other questions you have.
-Bear
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Surely this revelation should draw the wrath of the relevant bodies as it is crystal clear that this current maladministration is being manipulated by the puppet master for his and his family and their brown nosing acolytes benefit alone.
The people of Thailand do not matter nor does the sovereign state of Thailand.
All this hypocrisy is-emanating from a political collection of a motley gang of self serving corrupt unprincipled neer do wells.
Perhaps if the relevant departments viewed the big picture this malevolent maladministration would be removed from the scene and the greater majority of the gang banned from political involvement for life..
Now if this was to happen perhaps that small sapling called ''Democracy,'' instead of being crushed underfoot by Thaksin and his family and their brown nosing acolytes might well have a chance to grow into a strong full grown Democracy tree that will indeed bear the ripe fruit of a full democratic society for Thailand and its peoples..
One ,or perhaps I should say the greater majority of us can but live in hope of democracy thriving its Thaksin and the P.T.P. (Parasites and Ticks Party) aphid attack pains on its tender shoots..
I have always found waxing lyrical about the magical benefits of democracy everywhere a bit curious and naive. Democracy requires an informed, involved citizenry, which Thailan does not have. The majority are uninformed and cannot see past their nose. Thinking a few steps ahead are not exactly the cultural forte in Siam. Add to that poor public education, poverty, lack of pportunity, and pervasive corruption and you can see why most of the electorate are nither equiped nor interested in participating in the body politic. This leaves a huge hole for opportunists who squander public resource on ill concieved pupulist scheems to get elected in order to plunder the country.
Most tend to forget that the tradition of democracy came out of magna carta, which was really about sharing of the monarchs power with a few barons. The most intrepid experiment with democracy, American Republic, was established by a few educated and privileged "founding fathers" who were so scared of the "unwashed masses" that they came up with the idea of the electoral college as a fail safe switch.
More importantly for democracy to grow and thrive the society needs an effective public service sector that is governed by the appreciation of the importance of public good and transparency to the people.
None of these factors exist in Thailand and it was way to early for the country to jump into Democracy. US did a huge disservice to Thailand and many other countries by prematurily pushing them into democracy in the same blind belief that democracy (like the free market) is the silver bullet for all problems.
Democracies are like children, they need long childhoods with wise and fair parents before they can become balanced adults. Thai democracy is orphan street kid with with the penchant for self-destruction.
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A simple answer. The very liberal socialists have broken the Western economies. They simply can no longer afford to provide for people who have no desire to work. Thailand hasn't gotten to that point, YET.
This might be true in the case of Europe, but in the US the problem is the opposite. Too many giveaways to the corporations and drastic reduction of the government oversight led to the excesses on Wall street and in the real estate markets. US could have used more liberal thinking not less.
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Don't know who 'digital media" is, but they were fuzzy on some historical details.... To speak of political upheavals in generalized terms and then to erroneously suggest they were anti-Govt., does not characterize them correctly. They were not anti-government, but anti-coup..... Their principle demand affirms that.... Their demands were for an election, not the elimination of a Govt. or Prime Minister...... This is not by accident...... Some political elements wish to characterize the demonstrators as being anarchic, with no Democratic redeeming values. References to coups and such, gives these demonstrators too much validity from an Electoral democracy Point-of-view, for their liking........ One only needs to 'walk in the moccasins' of those affected by the deaths of 91 family members to fully appreciate the judicial initiatives described in this article....... A non-involved, calculated political perspective ignoring this reality, and seeking to characterize a trained and well-armed military in a favorable light with respect to the obvious vast preponderance of these deaths resulting from it, must be very troubling for these people.
It's really funny how the calls for respecting the "law" and living by the "rules" only surface when one is in power and can bend the said "laws" and "rules" to their advantage. The fact that UDD felt it acceptable to take over a center of a busy city and hold it hostage for a prolonged period of time despite the sitting government negotiating and offering to meet most of their demands would be unacceptable in any other liberal democracy in the world. Look at what happened to the Occupy Wallstreet protests. The Reds, just like the Yellows before them, were allowed to hold the whole country hostage for many weeks, causing the untold damage in destruction of property and livelyhoods of the many poor people they claim to try to help. Drunk with power their leaders kept changing their demands upping up the ante and showing very little good will.
You see, in a civil society there will always be opposing forces and the only way to survive is to coexist. If one party in the argument refuses to negotiate and insists on resorting to the mob rule until they get everything they want the response will not be pretty. Frankly i'm amazed it took the government that long to respond with force. Do you really think that if a crowd of people took over 5th avenue in New York or Downing street in London they would be allowed to stay there for weeks? No, they might be allowed a peaceful public gathering for a day to make their voices heard but that's it. So please, forgive us for not subscribing to your one sided whitewash of UDD. The Reds decided to play the anarchist game and they got the government response that frankly was too long coming. Just like the Yellows should have gotten earlier.
Now let's cover the motivatios of the movement as you seem to wax poetically about them. There was a survey conducted in the traditional red strongholds by either Chula or Thamasat (i don't recall which). They asked people to compare the policies of Democrats and TRT derivatives but without telling them which is which. It turned out that the vast majority of the rural poor actually preferred the Democrats' policies for helping them. So it's really a coup of marketing, PR, and a successful cult of personality of mr T that inspires such fanatical loyalty at the grass roots of the red movement. That and the cash giveaways, of course. Just like the poor uneducated white men in America keep voting for the Republican party and against their own economic self interest influenced by the red herring issues of religion and guns, the poor Thais keep voting for the guys who keep ripping them off. TRT policies were nothing but a populist veneer to cover up the corrupt and self-serving governments. The proverbial crumbs for the plebes to keep the masses happy. Those policies did not have any measurable long term effects on the people's lives, just a one time handout, while the leaders skimmed billions off the top. So please stop with the "they're doing it for the people nonsense", they are most clearly not.
Like most things in Thailand the policies, decisions, and public discourse are at the level of 5 graders: inability to see a few steps ahead, immidiate gratification, and utter unacceptance of an opposing point of view. I have long argued that countries like Thailand with the vast majority of the populace who are uninformed and short sighted are not ready for direct democracy. American founding fathers had the same reservations about the masses and solved them by including Electoral College into the American system as a safety switch in case the masses go crazy and elect someone like mr T. I do think that the best model for Thailand is Singapore and not the West. A benign dictatorship concerned with the country's economic success and progress. But even that would require men of vision and education and that pretty much rules out the whole red movement.
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Drug Maufacturers & Dealers are the Ultimate lowest form of human life . IMO
They are Murderers by slow Death . I have seen much of the end result.
I agree with Malaysia - Da Da means Death
The worst part is that they will be replaced almost immediately , the profits are too huge to ignore.
If this has saved just one person becoming an addict it is priceless. Well done to all involved.
Here we go again. It's really amazing how many fan boys of the totalitarian nanny state we have posting here.
You can make exactly the same argument against alcohol, tobaco, prescription pain killers, fatty processed foods, etc, etc. And yet all of those things are perfectly legal to help people ruin and end their lives. So you see, the "legal" reference point is rather arbitrary. Prohibition has been tried before even through the enormous power of a constitutional ammendment. And resulted in a huge loss of face and the repeal of the said ammendment. Just like the alcohol prohibition, the war on drugs cost trillions of dollars but failed miserably on all fronts. Drugs are cheaper, more potent and available than ever. The police are wasting their dwindling resources chasing non-violent offenders. Drug cartels are now so powerful that they challenge nation states. The prisons are full of otherwise productive people sucking tax dollars instead of creating them. The only winners are military industrial comlex and private prisons.
Adults will want what they want. The vast majority of users are looking for an occasional fun experience and have no problems controlling their behavior. The minority have addiction issues and need help. That's what AA, rehab clinics, and Weight Watchers are there for. History has shown that to legalize, regulate, tax, and help is a much better approach than prohibit. As Colorado and Washington have demonstrated, citizens are waking up to that reality. I prey the politicians and people like yourself will do so sooner than later.
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Is it not the case that there are certain toilet facilities which are known as paedophile meeting spots? That being the case I would say it was appropriate to have cameras to identify that old men were taking young boys into cubicles. That way there could be no argument about guilt or otherwise.
So if the question is............would I approve of cameras in toilets to catch paedophiles? You better believe it.
I'm quite happy to lose a little bit of privacy if it helps catch and convict these sick b*stards.
I have no tolerance for the sick perverts preying on children, but your argument stinks as well. This is the same kind of logic that in short 8 years turned US from the land of the free into fortress America. The old wisdom that people who are willing to sacrifice their freedom for security deserve nither is as true today as when it was stated at dawn of the American republic.
Yours is the logic that the propagandised populace used to accept the warentless wiretaps, indefinite detentions without charges, rutine strip searches at the airports, suspension of habeas corpus, and many other Orwelian exesses of a totalitarian regime over its own people.
The fact that you're commenting on Thai Visa tells us that you chose to live in Thailand away from the overreaching authorities of the West and yet, here you are espousing the same stupid attitude towards unchecked surveliance. If you crave the militarized nanny state you're welcome to head on back home, the rest of us want to remain free men.
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Can Thailand keep from falling apart?
in Thailand News
Posted
You've been drinking way too much red coolaid. They didn't have the money because their idiotic margin play backfired. Essentially they were counting on driving world market rice prices up by withholding rice that they borrowed from the farmers with the promises of above the market returns. When other rice producers stepped in and pushed the prices back down the game was up. And when the margin call came in the way of farmers demanding their money they had nothing left to pay them.
All of this happened months before Suthep took to the streets and the government had plenty of time to pay the farmers.