jayboy

It wouldn't surprise me if the two wreath layers were "wrong uns" as someone has put it: in fact I would be surprised if they weren't.However it doesn't alter the view that there was no reason for the redshirts to be hanging around there anyway "supporting the government".It's inappropriate and intimidating and the government should make that clear.

Of course the two men who got hit by Red Shirts had a right to do what they did. It is akin to the Orange Men of Northern Ireland doing their annual walks through areas of Belfast populated by hated 'enemies'. Perfectly legal. But both examples show a total lack of sensitivity for the immediate environment in which they take place, to the point of irresponsibility.

Why should these two have shown sensitivity by not laying the wreath? Because the vast majority of long-standing conflicts that have been settled in the modern era have been settled through some degree of engagement and understanding (read 'sensitivity') with the 'enemy'.

Those who cling to the short-sighted and narrow-minded position that the two who got beaten were within their rights to do what they did - and are therefore entirely blameless for the feelings they (probably knowingly) stoked - are deliberately using this fact to ignore the wider considerations involved in carrying out such an act and only seek to perpetuate the ill-feeling and divisions which feed their appetite to continually showcase their moral superiority and affected righteousness.

In my slightly-less-than-humble opinion.

I don't really agree.The redshirts don't "own" any part of the nation's capital, nor do they have any responsibility to keep order.If there is ever a sensitivity about protests it's a matter for the civil authorities, particularly the police.In the reported case, taking up the N.Ireland analogy, I don't think there was any wish to stoke up trouble by the couple concerned - slightly pointless , even inane, in my view but within their rights.In short the red leadership should crack down on this kind of behaviour.

There are examples of course where there has been deliberate provocation in Thailand particularly by the crazier wing of the PAD for example in solid Thaksin supporting areas in the North and more recently on the Cambodian border.That's a different matter altogether.The latter activity probably should have been banned (though in reality it was encouraged by some elements in the military), the former perhaps permitted but under strict police supervision - rather like Mosley's fascists in the late 1930's when they launched provocative marches into London's East End.If one or two of these had their bottoms kicked it would not exactly be a national tragedy.

But the incident with the wreath for House Speaker doesn't fall into this category, and frankly the leadership should pull redshirts off the streets unless properly authorised.

Don't hold your breath, the rich don't pay tax, do they ? Not even their children or maids/gardeners, when shares are 'parked' in their names ? That's only for the poor little-people, whose role will be to meekly accept it..

Perhaps given the truth of what you say a debate is needed on who exactly among the ultra rich of Thailand pays their legal taxes in full.Somehow one doubts this will ever happen.

At least those rich who are or were MP, or had a cabinet post will have to submit their asset declaration any moment now

It's a start but I wasn't really thinking just about politicians.

If that's right is it correct that someone with PR who never left Thailand wouldn't need to go to Immigration at all?

I think there are a couple of exceptions. When I applied for a Thai driver's licence they absolutely insisted I must have a current NQ Immigrant Visa in my passport, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also, I'm not sure if you have to notify Immigration of a change of address or passport or not.

Thanks

He also had a comment on Yingluck:

"Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

And the red shirts leaders:

"How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?"

Both great quotations from I think one of the greatest Englishman.I have marked your use of them

In the context you use them, the first is perfectly fair - sarcastic but not insulting, and with a sting too.Alpha question mark minus.

The second reference you frankly doesn't make much sense in the context of the red shirt leaders.Are you saying that their invocation of democracy is false because they are just "using" their supporters for selfish ends.Ok but frankly rather thin and not really focused.Beta double minus question mark minus.

Don't hold your breath, the rich don't pay tax, do they ? Not even their children or maids/gardeners, when shares are 'parked' in their names ? That's only for the poor little-people, whose role will be to meekly accept it..

Perhaps given the truth of what you say a debate is needed on who exactly among the ultra rich of Thailand pays their legal taxes in full.Somehow one doubts this will ever happen.

Harold Wilson seems to be the first to have said this. Others followed in either saying the same, or making it part of their week of glory:

"Conservative candidate Ivor Tiefenbrun resigns over insult to Scots

They say a week is a long time in politics, however, for Ivor Tiefenbrun three days is enough.

On Monday he was the Conservative candidate for Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn.

On Tuesday, he insulted Scots while at the same time defending Margaret Thatcher in an interview published in The Scotsman.

On Wednesday, he has to resign as the Conservative candidate for Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn."

Good thing the great Samuel Johnson was never a candidate for parliament

"The noblest prospect which a Scotsman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England!"

This week's parliamentary debate on the government's policy statement will be a complete disappointment to most of the country's electorate

It will come as a disappointment to 10% of the electorate.

The other 38% of the electorate that voted for PTP will make up excuses about her performance.

The 52% (most of the country's electorate) that didn't vote for PTP won't be disappointed at all. That's probably what they expected.

Time will tell what the people think.

As disastrous British labour MP once said "A week is a long time in politics" he was to resign in mysterious circumstances not long after.

Nonsense.

The quote is from Harold Wilson, one of the longest serving and most politically astute British Prime Ministers

I don't think the red shirts will have the patience to wait decades. It was their blood on the floor, if PTP don't deliver (the blatant evasion on the 300 baht wage is just offensive) they may go back to the streets. Probably with a change in leadership, and considerably less well funded.

What you suggest is possible but not I think likely any time soon.Where I differ from you is that I suspect such an independent redshirt movement could become stronger not weaker.

Hypothetically it could be a disaster for Thailand.Imagine a reinvigorated redshirt movement with dynamic leadership, free of restraining influences (yes that includes Thaksin), and with a powerful popular base among Thailand's working class, lower middle class and possibly army sympathisers.A party hostile to free markets and globalisation, indifferent to the trappings of Thai social hierachy.A Venezuela Chavez type scenario isn't unthinkable.Much depends on how the economy progresses - the better things go the less likely I suppose is the prospect of this happening.However an important caveat is that social inequalities need to be addressed to prevent descent into a South American spiral.Venezuela was and is rich, but became a disaster state because the less well off majority finally lost patience with a greedy patronising (and as in Thailand an ethnically distinct) elite.

Thailand's elite needs to be inclusive and recognise/address the redshirt grievances.The alternative could be appalling.Do I see any sign this is understood? None whatsoever.

Judging by the debates in the Thai Parliament yesterday that is extremely unlikely to happen.

Absolutely and over quite a wide range of issues I think the PTP led government will be surprisingly conservative.Are we perhaps seeing the Thai equivalent of the nineteenth century UK Liberal Party which in some ways was more conservative (in fiscal and surprisingly also in social matters) than its Tory opponents.Within the Liberal Party there gradually emerged a group representing the working class which eventually split off.In the PTP one can see a a more radical redshirt grouping but it's already clear they are not going to have a huge influence - not really surprising since the PTP power brokers in social class and wealth are not that much different from the opposition, more nouveaux riche perhaps.In this scenario the more radical wing of the PTP will over time become more mainstream consolidating lower middle class as well as working class support.This could take decades, particularly given the weight of Thai culture - a good thing in my view since it gives time for new ideas to be absorbed.Still this still leaves plenty of opportunities for the Democrats or their successors.A leader of genius (think Disraeli in the British context who amazingly secured a working class base) could transform their prospects.

I ended up going in the afternoon and submitting the forms at 3pm so I had to go back the following day. They wouldn't accept a signature on the receipt book or any document. I had to fingerprint each one. Never had that happen before.

A free tissue is included for the 5,700 baht you pay.

I couldn't be bothered with taking buses. A taxi from Mor Chit BTS station takes around 15 minutes.

Hi Camerata

I'm quite interested in PR.One question if you don't mind.You said that you hadn't obtained re-entry and endorsement since Immigration moved.Since immigration moved well over a year ago am I right in thinking that the NQ Immigrant Visa in your passport would have already expired as would the stamp in your Certificate of Residence.Thus you presumably only needed to obtain a new re-entry/endorsement because you were planning to travel abroad? If that's right is it correct that someone with PR who never left Thailand wouldn't need to go to Immigration at all? The only contact with the authorities would therefore be the stamping of the Red Book by the police every 5 years.Have I got this right or muddled it up somehow.It on the face of it seems odd that one could drop off the Immigration radar screen altogether though I suppose in most counties (not Thailand perhaps!) that's what PR means.

Is it at all possible that the greater abuse of the law, was in fact simply the law being exercised more frequently (abusively or otherwise) in response to a greater number of people breaking it a greater number of times? Not that that is to excuse it, but it would explain it and put it in context.

Out of context perhaps though suits and serves a certain agenda better.

You may have a point there, putting aside for a moment the abuse of the existing law.

It rather reinforces the view of many experts (David Dreckfuss etc) that many of the actions of those who have taken action ostensibly on behalf of the revered institution (but actually for their own selfish interests) have done untold damage.The military coup in 2006 was particularly poisonous in that regard, as I suspect future historians will agree.

Are you suggesting that Abhisit personally charged people with lese majeste? Had people charged with lese majeste at his behest? Could have got any traction at all in modifying this law given his backstabbing coalition? He's on record for what he would do under a given circumstance. Is anyone else?

He made sensible noises but did nothing to stop shocking abuse which increased exponentially during his time in power.A cynic might argue that he saw political benefits in LM's abuse.Generally his record on the matter was deplorable.

The only political leader that has ever vowed to overhaul lese majeste laws was Abhisit. He said the electorate would need to give his party an outright majority to do so however.

Ironic isn't it given that abuse of the law under his premiership reached an all time high, to a point where even understanding allies like the USA have spoken out against it.I guess Abhisit on this issue as on several others was speaking out of two sides of his mouth.

But remember Thaksin was asked a question and gave a very reasonable answer, namely that it was a matter for the Truth and Reconciliation Inquiry to decide and it should be left to do its work.

He did not say, as he might have done, that the charges against Abhisit and Suthep , if proven , are far more serious than anything he has been charged with.

This however is the dirty little secret of Thai politics which nobody seems to want to talk about.

What charges? Are you referring to k. Chalerm saying 'amnesty for all, except Abhisit/Suthep of course' ? The dirty, well-know big secret in Thai politics seems the involvement of fugitive criminal Thaksin in all this. And the complete denial of UDD leaders to be guilty of anything

An incoherent and foolish response.The subject under discussion was neither Thaksin (much though his critics like to drag him into every area) nor the UDD leadership but the possible responsibility of key members (namely Abhisit and Suthep) of the last government for the murder of civilian protesters in Bangkok.There is in the view of some a degree circumstantial evidence to support this but nothing will be clear until (or if) the Inquiry delivers its final report.Realistically it's unlikely that there will be a transparent report and even more unlikely that any government minister (or army general..ha ha) will be held responsible.That's the dirty little secret.

I am not surprised t see the Foreign Correspondents Club of Japan giving Thaksin a platform. It will be safe to expect that the FCCT will do the same the minute Thaksin sets foot into Thailand again. These are by and large the same people who misled their readers and viewers in the West on the nature of the red shirts protests. Maybe they will also invite Khun Jatuporn as a supporting speaker.

Another example where ignorance misleads.The Foreign Correspondents Club in Japan is quite similar to the FCCT in Thailand, specifically in that its membership has only a minority actually involved in journalism.Most are simply locals and foreigners interested in current affairs.

As to the western coverage of the events in Bangkok last year most fair minded people agree that on the whole the foreign media, including CNN and the BBC, did quite well.Of course they tended to be broad brush, even simplistic at times, but their audience is a prime time Western one whose knowledge could not be assumed.Most of the local criticism of the coverage seemed to be more because foreigners were touching on subjects where the Thai media usually fears to tread.For me the most ludicrous example of Thai myopia was the widely circulated but confused, poorly argued and absurd letter from a young woman which got extraordinary focus in the social media, essentially attacking CNN and its excellent local correspondent at the time, Dan Rivers.

Edited to add: Suthep and Abhisit are probably a little more worried after what he said in Japan today

Yes that was interesting as I noted from The Times's Lloyd Parry's twitter feed.

But remember Thaksin was asked a question and gave a very reasonable answer, namely that it was a matter for the Truth and Reconciliation Inquiry to decide and it should be left to do its work.

He did not say, as he might have done, that the charges against Abhisit and Suthep , if proven , are far more serious than anything he has been charged with.

This however is the dirty little secret of Thai politics which nobody seems to want to talk about.

One significant difference, as we know from Wikileaks if we hadn't already realised it from the elite's pathological hatred of the man, there was a determined effort to"get" Thaksin on whatever legal pretext that was available.I don't detect any such sentiment on the current government's side which seems much more generous spririted than its predecessor.I know there are some crazy redshirts seeking vengence but it seems they will be sidelined.

Many people seem to believe that a popular mandate is a license to operate above the law.

And some would see the manipulation and "direction" of the law as a way to frustrate a popular mandate.And of course this is just not idle talk because in the last few years we have seen many practical examples of this.

As to Thaksin's Japanese visa.. and other interventions, many of us would wish he would stay out of Thai politics....yet another example of a high level Thai's failure to understand enlightened self interest.The last administration particularly FM Kasit wasted a great desal of political capital in its obsession with Thaksin.It's not a question of being oblivious of the law:it's a question of perspective.

On this forum it's almost impossible to make this point without some genius accusing one of being a pro Thaksin apologist.

"Many of those bitter with defeat at the last election are desperate" is off topic. Asking what my reference to FM Surapong means is obtuse. You didn't mention him, but he is part of the topic. Since you suggested people protest at the Japanese Embassy, I gave reasoning why protesting at Government House would be more to the point. Since I suggested you might do so, I felt the need to warn you as well, FM Surapong is in a suing mood.

It's really amazing the length some people go to either justify 'this is not about Thaksin' or to try to deflect with accusing others of being desperate.

PS did FM Surapong find the time to file the defamation case against the Dem's, or did he drop it in the spirit of reconciliation and democracy

It's off topic (the frustration and bitterness of those who have just been told where to get off by the Thai people)in your view perhaps.Others might feel it is in fact directly pertinent.

Your comments on Surapong continue to mystify - I have no idea what you are gabbling on about with your comments about suing and deportation.

I have no doubt that the obsession (mindless and psychotic in some instances) with Thaksin will continue to preoccupy many opponents of this government.It would be better to adopt constructive criticism (the duty of an opposition) of the administration's economic and social policy - but that might seem too much like hard work for some.

As I and a few more posters have indicated, the problem is not that the Japanese government granted k. Thaksin a visa. The problem is that the Thai government requested the Japanese government grant him one. The problem gets even more serious with the FM lying about it. Whatever one may think of the conviction and sentencing to two years imprisonment of k. Thaksin, it makes him a criminal and jumping bail just before sentencing a fugitive. The Thai government has been seen to help a fugitive criminal whereas they are supposed to upheld the law, not break it.

So, no need to protest at the Japanese Embassy, take your protest placard to Government House.

A word of advise and warning, my dear friend. If FM Surapong would elect to sue you for defamation, deportation is a real possibility. Life can be harsh for farang here in Thailand

I don't think Thaksin has been that astute in all this, but it's hardly the biggest challenge facing Thailand.Many of those bitter with defeat at the last election are desperate to latch on to some legality to unseat the government given the failure to persuade the Thai people at the last election of their way of thinking. If it's not Thaksin's visa it will be something else.Any excuse will do rather than accept the popular verdict.As to the location of protest suggest address Dr Tui and his deranged acolytes who were picketing the Japanese Embassy.

No idea what your reference to Surapong means.I haven't even mentioned him.

An additional factor is the originator of the request for the visa, which was Thaksin himself.

The request was relayed to his cousin, the FM (by whatever means), who then made the request to Japan to grant the visa.

It's directly working for a convicted fugitive. (AKA aiding and abetting)

One tempted to respond to this post that Japan should also be be accused of aiding and abetting.Let's all gather at the Japanese embassy with Dr Tui and his gang of crazies to protest.Let's call for a boycott of wasabi and Toyotas.

Back in the real world,the Government of Japan is a serious and major player.Japan is not a country which takes actions against its own interests, and if there was a view in Tokyo that a visa should not be granted, it would not be granted.As de Gaulle once pointed out the state is a cold creature.

On our own parochial stage there will obviously be yapping noises, usually from those who realise the recent election represented a slap in the face for the political viewpoint they espouse.

You have accidentally attributed my post (the first-line from 'Public' to 'mistake') to Ozmick.

So presumably it's me, that you call "the usual suspects", and say "rage and foam about Robert Amsterdam" ?

I can reassure you, that I'm not raging or foaming, as I'm not a paid rabid twister-of-perceptions, just an ordinary straight observer, who had the sense not to go overboard, but waited for further details, when this story first broke. I have also never claimed that "the reds murdered themselves etc". Do you accept this ?

The current situation here, with the country split down-the-middle, on Thaksin and on how to improve life for the poor, is ill-served by such jumping-to-conclusions, by a paid-hack on another continent or by anyone else. IMO he should be ashamed of himself.

It also bothers me, the effect such propaganda may have had, on the feelings of anyone whose family-member may have gone missing. But perhaps I'm just raging and foaming again ?

Sorry about that.Don't quite know what happened.

No I don't think of you as one of the usual suspects, nor do I think you believe the Reds murdered themselves.

I'm fairly agnostic on Amsterdam though I appreciate he drives some into a tantrum.He's shown up some of the abuses of the elite, but he is as you say "paid for".A useful second tier source of info but I would never rely on him.

Fact is Amsterdam has drawn attention to several uncomfortable truths about the last government's record.

Perhaps his "uncomfortable truths" might resonate a bit louder if he wasn't continually undermining himself (and his employer) with all the uncomfortable porkies.

Perhaps as a child his mum never read him the, "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" fable.

Care to identify and refute some of the lies, or just continue to stay within the personal abuse comfort zone.

I'm sure you don't seriously mean that the suggestion of a PR guy telling porkies constitutes personal abuse, do you?

As for me caring to identify and refute some of his lies, i also don't think you are seriously suggesting this man has never been guilty of a mistruth, or a bit of deception, or some intentionally misleading information. This entire story is evidence enough for all but the blind or the naive. I take you to be neither.

There's a difference between lies and spin.I was wondering whether you could be specific about the former: apparently you can't.

The reality is that Amsterdam over time has identified and exposed lies and crimes in Thailand which local media won't touch.To that extent he performs a valuable service.

On one point I do agree namely that someone who has a PR function needs to be treated with a healthy degree of scepticism.He who pays the piper...etc.That's why I can't bring myself to monitor his website though I do follow him on Twitter.

Lets hope not. It would potentially set off utter chaos. I dont know of anyone who would support that, and a lot of the people I know dont even vote PTP, but accept that Thaksin is going to be part of the future of a country that is going to have differences of opinion on many things, which will have to be resolved through democracy. Quite a sophisticated opinion really. Then again most people whether they like Thaksin or not have far far more important things to worry about, and one trend I notice among Thai friends is that everyone thinks he is coming back and so it might as well be sooner rather than later as once he is back it ends all the games that go on while he trots round the world and one lot try to keep him away and the other try to bring him back. I am actually amazed that every non-PTP person I know right down to the most ardent PADer thinks he will be back and not serve time

You must know the most intellectual Thai people in all of Thailand. I employ 100+ Thai's in various businesses and the running theme from all the people that work for us from the Issan area is once PTP (Thaksin Proxy THEY call them) fixes all the stuff that the DEMs did wrong the country will be perfect.. just like before. When you ask them when before is, they go blank and give the always ready Thai response to ANYTHING they don't understand "you not thai you not understand thai way" then walk away muttering about farang under their breath. We also have people working with us from the South and the opinion from them is very clearly that if Thaksin sets foot on Thai soil again expect him to be killed.. they are very hard line about it...I assume its just a lot of big talk

The interesting part to me in all of this is how many of our employees that at one point would have died for the Red Shirt movement are getting impatient with PTP obviously not all of them probably not even a majority right now but quite a few are openly questioning others on the job about when all these great things are coming, free computer, 300 baht a day, 15,000 baht per month for their kids when they graduate etc... the list of people getting impatient is growing among the Thai's I deal with daily... I wonder about all the rest of them out there...

It is also interesting to note how many of our employees have school age kids, many in University and those kids just hate Thaksin and think their parents are fools for voting 1 in the last Election.. it gets rather heated sometimes around their dinner tables we are told.

You certainly claim to know a surprising amount about the way the Thais in your employment think, feel and worry about - almost to a supernatural degree.From the evidence in your post some comments simply don't ring true or bear much resemblance to reality.Some might think you are just making it up but on that I could not possibly comment.

As usual the usual suspects rage and foam about Robert Amsterdam.However as I understand it he immediately clarified the position when it became evident these were not redshirt bodies.

Fact is Amsterdam has drawn attention to several uncomfortable truths about the last government's record.His critics however never address these (or deny them - the reds murdered themselves etc ) preferring personal abuse as we have just seen.

As to his PR activity, all governments do this including Thailand who hired an expensive European PR firm to deal with their lies and obfuscation in the recent German seizure of an aircraft.

"However as I understand it he immediately clarified the position when it became evident these were not redshirt bodies."

Really? Where did he do this?

He tweeted it