jayboy

^just decades of observation myself mate - I guess you are unfamiliar in your limited arena. Suggest you get out more.

I was trying not to let this get personal but the record of your posts gives many clues where your "decades of observation" took place.

Take my word for it, in the educated upper and upper middle class circles of Bangkok , attractive young Thai girls tend to prefer attractive, hard working and well connected young men, whether Thai or foreigner.

If the legion of old farang porkers think they are loved for their good lucks, so be it.

I sincerely feel that no matter who runs the country it'll make no difference. The rot has set in.

Thailand has been rotting that way for centuries, and yet somehow made progress, too.

During his formative years as a politician Thaksin was probably a victim of prevailing political culture, and once he figured out how to use it he became a victim of his greed, following the dictum about "power corrupts".

His moral compass failed him, he wasn't properly taught in his childhood.

The system that allowed him to rise to the top is utterly corrupt, true, but I think it's just a side effect of introducing democracy, when the bureaucratic way of running the country had to give space to "democratic" leaders, people who had no chance of advancing via traditional means and used electoral shortcuts to power instead. Over decades they formed their own culture on how to cheat, lie, and steal, and call it democracy, and Thaksin swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

The problem with these people is that they are not prepared for leadership, they are not taught about duties and responsibilities, or pitfalls. In traditional civil service structure that knowledge is passed from generation to generation, and if you wanted to advance, you had to learn it from your superiors in order to move up the ladder.

I'm not saying that bureaucracy is perfect, but it assured some sort of quality. It surely didn't allow as many people to advance as electoral democracy does, but maybe that's not such a bad thing, given that politics is now perceived as an utterly corrupt occupation filled with greedy self-serving people who do not care about the country even a bit.

"Democracy" took in too many opportunists, the overall leadership quality slipped, wrong examples have been set, wrong culture has been cast, and now it weeds out all honest candidates on approach.

This is an articulate statement of your position and I appreciate the clarity.One aspect puzzles me which is why more weight needs to be given to the bureaucracy in Thailand than in other successful countries.I'm aware that there were some similarities in Japan but nevertheless the democratic process was always predominant there (and of course the last election there was a great blow to entrenched bureaucratic power).

In the relatively small world of attractive well educated financially independent Thai girls settling for foreign partners, surprise surprise the farang in question tends to be slim, well educated and good looking.

Actually tends to be older and generally overweight lads, but let's not burst your bubble mate.

Burst my bubble? I don't have any particular interest one way or the other - just thirty years observation here.

The fact that you refer to older and generally overweight "lads" suggests that you might not be very familiar with the rather small group I had in mind.

It is part of the incredible phenomenon that many of us very average (at best) looking, older, overweight farang are so desirable to Thai women, even young girls. I am never given a second glance by women back home (USA), but in Thailand I am looked at every day like I am a celebrity! I am definitely desired - unbelievable. I've never received a expression from a Thai woman (even a drop-dead gorgeous one) that my appearance is not appealing to her (and I'm 62, thin hair, and 108kg). It constantly amazes me. After living here for more than two years, I now realize their attraction is genuine and it lifts me up every day. But I think smiling, being clean shaven and well-dressed makes a difference too. Thai women love that.

It is definitely an ego boost to live in LOS!

While your conclusion may be correct, your first paragraph suggests you are living in a dream world.Most Thai girls have the same view of fat old geezers as their equivalents in the West but culturally are less likely to spell out the harsh facts.Call it good Thai manners if you like.Another aspect is that lower class village girls (even if they migrated to the bar scene) but also middle class Thais have an old fashioned idea that physical attraction is much less important than being a nice guy with riaproi characteristics but above all the ability to provide.If there were many examples of attractive Thai women who were prepared to spend time with fat old foreign men they were not financially dependent on you might have a case to argue.

In the relatively small world of attractive well educated financially independent Thai girls settling for foreign partners, surprise surprise the farang in question tends to be slim, well educated and good looking.

Very well said Khun Plus.

Yes very well put.

Here's that interview again from a slightly different angle

http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=822

As for believing that the poor should simply accept "local patronage" as opposed to the power of the ballot box, this is simply supporting the ineffective to maintain the status quo. Turning the clock back or the status quo of of however many years ago will not re-unite the country.

Emphasis mine.

I don't see anywhere in Young's interview that he recommends that. What he tried to argue is that Thaksin ballot box power was no replacement or alternative to patronage at all.

It's a false dichotomy.

I've re - read Young's interview including the second part and on reflection I think my earlier comments were a bit harsh.Obviously I don't agree with all his views but at least it's a coherent statement of a particular way of looking at Thai politics and society.In a forum like this there's always a tendency to fall into simplistic positions (no quarter given is the watchword) and although my sympathies are those one would expect of an (dare I say it?) educated Western liberal, I've always been conscious as a foreigner of the danger of metaphorically throwing the baby out with the bath water.By that I mean there are aspects of Thai society which though perhaps not that logical are actually quite important in keeping this extraordinary and interesting country together.

What jars a little in Young's interview is the rather large number of simple mistakes, but the biggest issue for me anyway is the extraordinary views he espouses on the Chinese.

As soon as I read this I thought mmmm the Thai studies brigade are going to go ape over it. I bet NM will front page it just for attack.

Personally disagree with quite a lot of the article but hey ho it is at least an academic opinion that doesnt just follow the usual boringly repetetive line. Kudos to the dude for that even if I dont agree with it. Now over to NM to see if the gang over there have blown a fuse over this.

Come on Hammered, you can do better than this.I don't worry about the little yellow blow flies (or red ones for that matter) who don't really understand what they're on about. My view is that this kind of reactionary rubbish doesn't stand by whether it's boring or not.Is it twaddle or not? What do you think?

Incidentally neither the man or the article is "academic" in the sense of providing rigorous analysis.

Waiting for Jayboy, the king of the "Thai Military Appointed Judiciary never punished the yellows" crew, to explain this conviction....

Clearly, as regards Sondhi and I suspect much else, neither you or TAWP has your ear very close to the ground. Most politically aware and educated Thais know the score.Plus's comment on this thread demonstrates he does - as I would have expected.

Forum rules preclude a full discussion.

I specifically know people who were inconvenienced by the airport,

but had no hesitation to come right back. And have 2-3 time since.

But those same folks ARE scared of the RedShirts

and their trouble causing habits country wide.

And yet also are fearful of the general lawlessness increase from the declining economy.

They want one government in power for some time to give stability and it must control protesters

in a proper manner.

Yeah , right.

To paraphrase , most tourists believe there was some slight inconvenience when the yellows peacefully and briefly occupied the airport but what they are really really worried about (and scared!) are the reds causing trouble all over the country, and they furthermore hope the government will stay in power a long time and crack down hard on those pesky reds.

I know the internet is an anonymous forum where people can make up anything they like - but this is ridiculous.

There were no empty hotels on New Years day.

There's a general decline in tourism worldwide, don't make a mistake of attributing all of it to the airport closure.

I don't.The world recession is at least an equal factor in Thailand's tourism downturn.But the recession will pass.What will remain is the memory of the international airport being seized and the government standing by powerlessly.Furthermore the criminals responsible remain unpunished and a key supporter remains Foreign Minister.A reputation once destroyed by this kind of criminality is hard to restore.The good news is that Thailand is a very attractive destination, and I believe will eventually restore its position but the damage done by the yellow mob, the criminals that led them and the elite that gave them moral support is very severe.

A few weeks after the airport takeover most of the tourists were back for New Year holidays. The effect was short-lived.

Your opinion.Most others would say the effect on Thailand's travel industry was disastrous.

The effects remain dire.Talk to any leading figure in the sector.

I would normally suggest ending this pathetic excuse for criminality, but it is of course pointless.

due to sloppy rather than criminal police work they eventually got it - although let's face it on a tiny scale unless one counts those morons who blew themselves up.

Again with the lies and non-supported 'facts' being re-posted by the same posters.

You are saying that all damages, including those seen 'live' in the videos, are infact from peoples own devices and that the police actions did infact not kill anyway?

A yes or no is enough.

The answer is "no", but whether that's enough is a matter for me to decide.

Was the decision to order the enforced clearing the right one? Absolutely

The police action was incompetent, coupled with idiotic use of inappropriate tear gas projectiles which did most of the damage including the unfortunate fatalities.

Was there malicious intent by the police or the politicians who ordered the clearing.I doubt it.

Was the bloodshed, albeit minor, something that the PAD leadership was hoping for? Probably.

Was there a violent and thuggish element in the yellow ranks? Yes.

Were some yellow supporters carrying explosives which in least one case killed the person concerned? Yes

Ex-Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat shows

on Tuesday cabinet resolution of Oct 6 last year

to prove his claim that he did not order violent

crackdown on yellow shirted protesters.//Sakol Sandhiratne

-- The Nation 2009/08/09

Wasnt there stuff at the time of a chaotic cabinet meeting called at night with more than a few ministers drunk? No doubt we will never know but bear in mind also that certain influential PPP MPs (named on Thai weboards) had given shall we say heated speeches at the red shirt rally before they were escorted by the police several km to attack the yellow shirts on a previous occasion.

I doubt Somchai really wanted violence but it certainly isnt beyond a number of PTP powerful ones and the police had already been seen as taking sides at that stage.

Interesting period with diofferent sides trying to get their propoganda version accepted.

Interesting however propaganda apart, isn't it useful sometimes to remind ourselves that no self respecting government in the world would have permitted an illegal occupation in a location like this? I personally had no problem in principle with a forcible ejection of the yellow shirts, sheer criminality on the leadership's part.After all several warnings had been given.Exactly the same with the red yobs in Pattaya later on.However the PAD leadership was thirsting for bloodshed and due to sloppy rather than criminal police work they eventually got it - although let's face it on a tiny scale unless one counts those morons who blew themselves up.

How dares Thaiksin to question the integrity of a "Justice system" which is able to catch and punish within a few hours everything a Red Shirt does, but is unable to bring the PAD to Justice for their crimes against the nation.

Hyperbolic troll.

Really? I wouldn't have put it quite this way but the fundamental point being made is sound.

Thaksin would never agree to an interview with an honest journalist.

Whatever other guys wrote in his praise in WSJ or Economist is irrelevant.

Either substantiate that statement or withdraw it.

Don't bother.On the subject of journalism (long history of wild and often comically offbeat accusations) Plus isn't to be taken seriously which is a pity because he's interesting on some other subjects

that it's a hanging crime" for anyone to interview Thaksin.

so if someone gets hung we will know to take your comments seriously - if not you can just be another poster with hyperbole issues.

"Hanging crime" was in inverted commas (sorry, I left one out!), i.e metaphorically speaking but also because a quote from Bangkok Pundit.

Trashing the courts does nothing productive. But it does undermone rule of law in Thailand.

If the courts act against all before them and interpret the laws evenly, if not by precident,

then the Rule Of Law can be instilled here. If you DON'T like the laws, well work to change them.

But don't expect a free ride for your side vs existing laws just because your side doesn't like them.

Thaksin was never a big fan of rule of law if it didn't favor his interests over all others.

And his interests have for sometime not been the true interests of the majority of Thai people,

no matter what his loyal sycophants here will say.

I don't disagree but the historical truth is that the judicial system in Thailand has almost always been politically directed.It was thus under Thaksin and only disciples of the Pollyanna tendency would suggest the situation is much different now.

Interesting to see Yoon push Abhisit and ask difficult questions. A bit of a difference from the recent softball Thaksin interview. People may not agree with Yoon on everything but he still remains a far better journalist than most in Thailand.

I think this has been shown many times, Abhisit will consent to sharp and difficult interviews while Thaksin shies away from being interviewed by anyone that won't ask him the "right" questions. Who has more to hide? (and who would cry more about "unfair interview questions" if both were put to the test, just like he does about anything that doesn't go his way and his bumbling makes him seem more the fool?)

Exactly though I don't think Abhisit has been subjected to the really tough questions yet, even on that rather easy treatment he got on BBC's Hardtalk.He also gets petulant if he doesn't like the line of questioning but that's not so different from countless politicians the world over.Point is Abhisit is infinitely better equipped than Thaksin to give convincing and persuasive interviews.I have never in fact seen Thaksin give a decent performance in an interview.But the demonisation and hyper sensitivity of the elite about his speaking over their heads to the Thai people is surely counterproductive.They should learn from Iran's mistakes with the Ayatollah in the 1970's.Familiarity breeds contempt and that will work as well with Thaksin as anybody else.

Thaksin would never agree to an interview with an honest journalist.

Whatever other guys wrote in his praise in WSJ or Economist is irrelevant.

To give Plus his credit he's a useful litmus test for what's currently written in the PAD playbook.

The current dogma (for an interesting discusssion have a look at Bangkok Pundit) is that it's a hanging crime" for anyone to interview Thaksin.It goes without saying that any journalist whether Thai or foreign will be accused of innumerable crimes against humanity if he or she dares to interlocute with the Prince Of Darkness.It is of course all complete nonsense and an indication of how the PAD fanatics have lost all judgement in their hysterical demonisation of the former PM.

Now it would be a fair point to say that Thai journalists almost never make challenging or searching interviews whether in relation to Thaksin or anyone else.And by God Thaksin needs to be asked some hard questions.

Honest journalist would have asked a lot more probing and challenging questions.

You have rubbished almost every foreign journalist commenting on Thailand, even sometimes to the laughable extent of suggesting they (Times, WSJ, Straits Times, Economist) are directly or indirectly on Thaksin's payroll.I'm just wondering whether any established journalist exists that meets your exacting criteria.

I have specified Foreign because most Thai journalists are not known for probing or challenging (or let's face it even bothering to fact check).

And for chrissake don't come up with Drummond or Crispin.

Hello,

I want to go to China around October 4th (mid-term break) with my Thai girlfriend.

I am a Swedish citizen and we are both University students.

Do you need any travel insurance? Is it difficult for Thais to get Chinese visa?

I have a French friend who has just done this with Thai gf.Latter obtained visa for herself at Chinese Embassy in Bangkok, no problem at all and process is easy if a bit of a production line.

JR Texas - what is so creative about Japan or South Korea or Singapore?

Those are probably the most collectivist countries with no thinking outside the prescribed box allowed.

There is a recognizable Japanese and South Korean "creative" waves, however.

What I see is what I said in my post on the previous page - they just try to exploit someone else's creativity deeper than any competitors, including the "creative" West itself. In many ways they are already better at this than Disney that's been cashing on the same basic formula for decades.

Everybody can do that, it's not real creativity, it's just higher degrees of copycatting.

>>

Thailand has it's own outlook on the world to work from. The stuff they produce from their traditional arts and stories is solid good, thought not entirely in tune with the new metro-sexual world. Even if it does not become a commercial success it is still capable of capturing people's hearts and imagination as it appeals to basic human emotions, albeit form a different angle, and that's where they can exploit the "creativity".

>>

To the people who complain about rote learning in Thai schools - get over it. Genetically Thais must be pretty average with the average amount of creativity genes. The education system can dampen those genes development but it's not the only factor. In some ways rebelling against that school system can give the best creativity boost ever. Same thing happened in the West decades ago, didn't it?

>>>

I have no faith in West creativity at this point anymore. It's the thing of the past, creative genes have been weeded out. It's my personal opinion, based on the lack of any inspiring ideas in any field of human knowledge in the past decade or so. The creative spunk is gone. Will Asia or Thailand in particular pick it up? I don't know. At best I think they've got a healthy reaction going on. I don't know if it is sustainable.

I'm not sure I fully understand or necessarily agree with all this (The West's creativity is still impressive) but it's so original and thought provoking (by this forum's standards) it made my hair stand on end.I"m sure Plus is on to something.The Thais are who they are -original, quirky, self confident, oddly unknowable - and it's slightly dispiriting to see how many foreigners in this thread latch on to the tired cliches.There's a great deal of original thinking among Thais and the superficial conformity mask is just that, a mask.

dear Jayboy, I really get the impression you can't conceive how somebody migth not always agree with you. You can't convince us, we can't convince you, so let's leave this to rest.

I thought this thread was about helping potential PR applicants with the process, not about winning or not winning arguments (which I feely admit is the case in the political forums).However if you insist I would point out that those that believe that "influence'' of one sort or another can trump or make irrelevant all or any of the well established PR rules have completely failed to prove their case.So the advice to PR applicants remains the same - follow the rules well set out in Camerata's guide.

Perax,

May jayboy continue to misinterpret postings on this site and may he believe what he wants to believe. And may the rest of us ignore him and move on...

You wrote that results on PR are obtained by the exercise of influence.They aren't.

nice try, no sale.

keep preaching.

You remind me of the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail who kept on coming back for more punishment notwithstanding King Arthur had hacked both his arms and one of his legs off!

And you remind me of the Russian codpiece Black Adder wore in front of the clergy.

Or the Monty Python argument room skit. And just as logical.

You can't make your lies about me fly, no matter how you might dress them up.

And another of your legs is metaphorically hacked off.Accept that you have been demolished...and move on.Incidentally none of this is about you or me, however keen you are to personalise it.

nice try, no sale.

keep preaching.

You remind me of the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail who kept on coming back for more punishment notwithstanding King Arthur had hacked both his arms and one of his legs off!