jayboy

Can you give an example of a US mosque selling DVDs of Osama sermons or something similar?

Otherwise it's like "I think legal but I'm not sure".

Actually, how about foreign, visiting clerics peddling Osama tapes?

No but I can give you an example of someone who is by no means a fool but is so obsessed that he loses sight of the fact when his strong feelings lead him into spouting laughable tripe.

No you got it wrong....again.Jakrapob's appearance at the FCCT was long before the events of April this year.

By that logic earlier sermons against the US by Osama, for example, are ok to sell on DVDs because that was before he actually ordered flying planes into WTC (even if allegedly).

Well, actually, AFAIK it *is* legal to sell Anti-US sermons in the US (if there's a buyer and there's no issue of copyright, etc.) because of this thing we have called freedom of speech...

Although it has been hard-going lately, the US flag still isn't more important than what it stands for....

Sorry, bit off-topic, but thought I should point that out....

Actually it's a very pertinent point and completely on topic.The nearest American equivalent of this ridiculous situation would have I thought been the seventeenth century witch trials at Salem when accusations were flung around by the immature or ignorant, and exploited by the cynical.Actually at least the witch trials represented a morality story of sorts with some interesting light cast on the human condition.

Let's see if I got this right - Jakrapob Penklair is currenty on the run and he openly advocates military struggle against Thai state, and foreign correspondents distribute DVDs of his speech???? Have they gone nuts???

There apparently isn't a single brain cell left in there.

They shouldn't try stuff like that even at home, forget while working as journalists in a foreign country.

No you got it wrong....again.Jakrapob's appearance at the FCCT was long before the events of April this year.In any event your summary analysis of his position is misleading.Certainly he made some rather wild comments earlier this year but they were just that, comments.I wonder whether you were as outraged when a gang of military criminals actually went beyond comments and took over the country by force, installed a puppet government, rigged a constitution and generally spat at democracy.In any event it's also irrelevant whatever one's views to this thread.

You have a record of slandering foreign correspondents, presumably because some of them at least try to show the political situation is multi faceted and complex.Some of the most astute like Jonathan Head receive the most abuse and the reasons are rather transparent.As a side comment,Siripon in an otherwise sensible post earlier mentioned JH was naive in accepting Jakrapob's line in toto.I don't see this at all, and it's not reflected in JH's reports for the BBC.

As to the topic itself I think most rational people (i.e excluding the geniuses commenting on the Manager website) accept that the latest lese majeste charge simply confirms the need to reform the law before Thailand is damaged further.And as a firm believer in constitutional monarchy I agree with Abhisit that these frivolous and incredibly counter productive charges be stopped in their tracks.Nevertheless I recognise that against stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain.

ALL MY FRIENDS IN THAILAND

just in case you have not noticed--99%+ OF THAIS LOVED THEIR ROYAL MAJESTY THE KING AND QUEEN

to the point of willing to give up one's life to protect the royal family.

whatever you say or do in reference to this most worshiped institution, you need to pay the utmost

respect.

unlike the american or the british citizen who can say funny things about the monarch, verbally or

in printed forms, such as funnies, cartoons etc.

but the thais would not be so understanding nor forgiving to hear or see their most loved royal leaders

being put into such position.

thai statue prescribes severe punishment but the individual red blooded loyal thais would be even more

punitive to the n-degree.

like the wise one said long time ago,

when you go to rome, just have fun and

do not deviate too much from the romans.... cheers

Any particular reason why you have adopted a parody (in my view rather patronising and offensive) of a Thai speaking pigeon English when the rest of your posts show exactly what you are.

I guess it should be mentioned that several foreign countries have accepted the decison of the Thai judicial system at least implicitly by making Mr. Thaksin unwelcome.

I'm not so sure.The quality of the Thai judicial system and the extent of its being harnessed for political purposes has been discussed by observers for decades.Naturally I take no position one way or the other.But there is at least a school of thought that the institutions of state have been marshalled to ensure Thaksin's destruction.

The generally unfriendly treatment of Thaksin by Western nations more likely is related to his active involvement in Thai politics from exile.The events of April will have confirmed this, and then some.

My view is that it would be quite wrong to assume foreign countries' actions on this matter are informed by their views on the efficacy, incorruptibility and non-politicisation of the Thai judicial system (though I think we can have a pretty good guess what their views might be).Remember in any case the only charge on which Thaksin has been found guilty is trivial.The really serious charges have not been brought against him, nor are they likely to be.

So my assumption is that the Brits and the Germans in particular chiefly object to Thaksin stirring up shit from his exile when he should have been concentrating on improving his golf handicap.

I see reams and reams of leaflets calling for Taksins return have been thrown littering not only Sisaket city but every small village and bus stop throughout the province.

They were dropped from microlight aircraft in and around the town.

Incidentally, I attended the rally held by the PTP party and they were very critical about visa regulations causing difficulties, particularly to Westerners.

Both parties fielded strong candidates with powerful campaigns but the support for Thaksin and his return to Thailand is uppermost in the majority of peoples' minds here.

And if banned means banned,

then this election should be over turned for using a banned pol to win it.

Regardless if he is loved or not.

Not saying it wasn't won properly by the standards in use today,

only that the standards are sub-standard.

I don'y see this as a slap at Abhisit,

we always knew there are still blinded Thaksin lovers up country,

just that the Chart Thai guys can't make a fight of it.

Frustrating isn't it that Thais keep on voting in a way we don't approve of.There's a word for it..what is it now, oh yes...democracy.

Seriously even the most partisan zealots don't share your view that the election was somehow suspect.

Time to bring Thaksin back - there is no discipline in Thailand anymore - from anyone.

BR>Jack

Thaksin bondage and discipline is not what Thailand needs.

These wouldn't be photographs of the Tak Bai incident in which a Thai court very recently ruled that army, police and government officials had done "nothing wrong."

Anyway there ought to be some prize for weird off topic obsessiveness.The quoted post would certainly win it.

Thaksin made some particularly callous and stupid remarks after Tak Bai, but a more interesting tack for the purposes of this thread would be his links with King Power which I believe were considerable.

Thais cannot accept Noppadon's agreement that parts of the site on Thai side of the border don't have historical value and Cambodian explanation for it.

Unesco shouldn't have accepted the bid without Thai consent, and they were clearly mistaken when they thought photos of disgraced FM signing annuled agreement qualifies as Thai support and "joint" listing.

Having said that, I won't obstruct your physiological need to rant about pad fascism, go on, most of people have left that emotional wave a year ago.

On the subject of ranting, I will accept no lectures from you.

The PAD intervention on the highly sensitive issue of Preah Vihar was a classic fascist tactic.If you can't grasp that you don't understand history.I feel no need to rehash the past but let me point out it was you that suggested the PAD stirring up of nationalist sentiment was some kind of public service.

Is the new President capable of turning Thai around? Do you think he will be allowed to make the changes necessary to return Thai to a world class airline? Is he qualified to do so?

The man has a take no prisoners approach to working with the civil servants in Thailand. His experience at the MoE is proof of that, he is respected and feared, and one of the best policy brains in Thailand. He has a thorough understanding of the need for, and how to, make a sector grow and become stronger by virtue of market competition, and a track record of opening up the Thai power sector to competition in provision of power to EGAT. He knows how to get the public service to come around to what needs to get done.

As an intellect is just about without peer in Thailand, the guy is incredibly bright (as is his wife), without making him ineffective in the real world, as was shown during his stint in K-Bank, where reportedly, he made bucket loads of money. Moreover, he doesn't suffer fools.

Although his wife is a democrat advisor, I believe this is one of the best choices that could have been made. He has shown he can work well under any government, indeed he worked under TRT while at the MoE before becoming energy minister in the coup government. It should be noted that the Transport Ministry is currently controlled by ex.TRT/thaksin followers, so the fact that he got up is testament to his ability to work with all sides of politics.

I fully endorse this opinion.He has a superb intellect (Oxford, first class honours) and a combative temperament to boot.Unusually among Thai bureaucrats he has an incredibly analytical way of thinking and I don't believe for a moment that he won't be able to diagnose and come up with solutions for TG's problems.As another member points out he is bound to come up against resistance from elite factions, notably the airforce.It will be an interesting ride.

Bottom line - Unesco's listing created only more problems with preserving the site. They should definitely reasses their approach.

It didn't seem to be a problem before the PAD tried forcing the government's hand in the matter, and of course having a PAD supporter in the cabinet doesn't help.

Previously Thailand wasn't going to object to the UNESCO listing.

...

When is previously? Thailand has withdrawn support for joint listing sometimes in 2007. Thai delegation publicly walked out of a meeting in January 2008. Noppadon fired the lead negotiator and took the matter in his own hands. By March-April the proposed listing was changed from "Preah Vihear site" to "Preah Vihear temple", in line with Cambodian demands for splitting the site along border line. In May PAD has brought the matter to the light and the hel_l broke loose. You can blame PAD for bringing it to public attention istead of going along with Noppadon's quiet reversal Thailand's long standing position (wouldn't it be wonderful if they all just shut up for good), but when the matter had become public it was clear that the opposition to Noppadon was spread far and wide and there was little chance of it passing through even PPP controlled parliament.

Cambodians presented the photos of Noppadon shaking hands and the banners and crap as evidence of Thailand's support and Unesco accepted it, even as Thai court rendered the agreement null and void and Noppadon resigned in disgrace.

Now the temple is closed, indefinitely, there has been casualties and the site has been shelled, and there are no prospects of Thailand agreeing to join the international commission to manage the site.

Well done, Unesco!

Keep the tourists away and let the military be in charge of security to make sure no one bothers the peace at ancient ruins.

Send "thank you" postcards to Noppadon.

This issue doesn't really grab me in the anal retentive way it does some.Actually what Noppadon proposed seemed perfectly reasonable but personally I think a joint listing is best given the historical baggage but what's presumably most desirable is that a significant heritage site important to both countries is well looked after.

The attempt to defend the PAD's opportunism on this issue is laughable.It was a classic fascist attempt to whip up nationalistic fervour although most Thais I talked to saw through this easily.I agree it's not easy dealing with Hun Sen's Cambodia but that's a different issue.

She was refused bail for her own safety, as her speech was practically as provoking as that guy who destroyed Erawan shrine and was lynched on the spot.

Thais tend to take some matters very seriously, and the judges thought her life was in danger.

That's one possibility.Another is that any detailed public discussion on this type of offence is off limits as far as the hoi polloi is concerned.It was ever thus.

I know the salaries of a lot of the Thais I work with who consider themselves "middle class", and I can tell you now they're well short of the 100,000 baht per month Koo has previously stated she's earning.

For so-called middle-class, 100,000 baht a month is pretty exceptional.

(And I seriously can't see any of them being red-shirt supporters. A large majority of them still wear the staple yellow on a Monday, whatever that means nowadays.)

As in many countries (particularly the USA) there is a difference bewen what class people consider themselves to be in and what class they are actually in judged by the standard measures.It was interesting observing the recent US electoral campaign how many people people who were obviously blue collar or working class but considered themselves to be middle class.

Having said that I agree Bt 100,000 pm or even lower would cover many Thai middle class people.My point was really made in relation to expatriates.

The discussion was on free government schools and why "her" son wasn't apparently a part of it...how many ex-pats are involved in that? Particularly those ex-pats whose income exceeds 100,000 baht? But...

Perhaps best to leave it to "her" to explain what he/she meant in the post rather than make misstatements on "her" behalf?

Ok you make a fair point on the free government school discussion context.

It is assumed that Koo is a Thai woman, a true Thaksin supporter, and so her family income is assumed to be in line with the rest of the red shirts.

I never make assumptions about Thai Visa members.It's an anonymous forum.

However my point now is that there are many many middle class supporters of the Red movement, even if they don't sport red shirts.

Maybe this argument will make sense to Isanese, who value loyalty to pooyais above caring for the country, ..

Actually this is in my opinion a Thai characteristic not just an Isaan one.Despite the rhetoric of patriotism I think most Thais don't really have love of country as their prime motivation, or even a particularly important one.Sure there's a national pride when say a boxer wins a medal at the Olympics but overall loyalty is to the family, immediate community or as you suggest various pooyais.There is a surprising absence of sankom khwam rapit chop - which is the bedrock of those who truly care about their country possibly reflecting the sense of Thai identity is a relatively recent development.The disgusting language used at PAD rallies about the rural majority does not reflect a love of country but a deeply enshrined selfishness.So please no more piffle about Isaanesse who do not care for their country.

As said, there's a separate thread for that discussion, but it doesn't cover private schools (presuming that with your high income and talk about increasing fees, that you don't send your son to a government school).

I didn't know 100,000 Baht a month is called "high income" You made me laugh so hard.

You know Koo82, i had you down as being many things but never arrogant. Seems i was wrong.

Do you laugh in the face of the millions of workers in Thailand who barely earn a tenth of your alleged income?

I don't think you are being fair at all.Koo clearly wasn't referring to Thai workers but the expatriates who pontificate (including yours truly) on this forum.And yes for this group Bt 100,000 per month is rather a low income.Yes I know there are various respectable retirees and teachers (as well as the horde of ne'er do wells and deadbeats) who have far less than that.But for educated professionals - and that's the intended tone of discussion on this forum one presumes - Bt 100,000 is on the low side.

How can dear old Plus and Animatic.....

Now I see that Plus and Animatic are having a field day...

It's always inadvisable to pair people you deem to have similar political outlooks because the reality is usually is that they are strikingly different.In this instance it's akin to pairing Sophocles and Scooby Doo.

The dirty little secret is that British TV is itself largely rubbish.Nothing British has even come close to the quality of The Wire, although oddly the hard drinking Irish Baltimore cop lead part is played by a Brit, and an Old Etonian to boot.

I've witnessed a pleasant calm amongst the general expat population in the present economic conditions as opposed to a few years ago when many expats were caught up in a spiral of buying bigger properties, upgrading lifestyles, immersed in construction and investment fiascos. Call it more of a "sufficiency happiness quotient" that has increased as we accept with humility and gratitude a less materialistic endeavor.

I wonder how you define the general expat poulation and equally wonder how how you have a direct line into its thinking.

My own spin is that there will always be a number in deteriorating economic conditions who rationalise their fate by seeking comfort in a "sufficiency happiness quotient" or some such rubbish.Alright if you are a Bhutanese peasant I suppose.

For the rest of us it means buckling down, working hard and digging ourselves out of a hole.

Of all the farrangs I know in Thailand, the majority of them have heard of Thaivisa, but know very little about it. They will have perhaps just had a cursory glance at the forum every now and then, but will have never posted or read the site in depth. Certainly you'd say they are "indifferent" though, to refer to the quote above.

After these indifferent types, I'd say the next biggest group haven't the faintest idea what ThaiVisa is.

I agree.Thai Visa as the name implies is primarily geared at those expatriates that voluntarily decided -many after having come on holiday here- to spend time long term in Thailand as opposed to being sent here by companies or governments.A related point not made so far is that the majority of expatriates legally working with appropriate visas and permits generally have these requirements looked after by their company's HR department at one level or secretary at another.I can assure you that most of this group will never have heard of Thai Visa, although that may be changing with The Nation link up.Personally I think Thai Visa is a wonderful resource which could expand further by adjusting its visa runner image (look at the quality of the advertisers which tells you everything on this score) and becoming a genuine forum for all expatriates including the higher earning elite.This would probably involve a change of name.The commercial advantages would be quickly apparent with sponsors and advertisers keen to tap a better educated and more affluent audience.

The Nation has a report which clarifies the position once and for all.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/06/19...al_30105613.php

For all those doubters, the Government has now proved beyond all dispute that state officials including the military and police had nothing to do with the massacre.This was achieved by a scientific analysis of the evidence which demonstrated there was no security force type DNA on the crime scene.I'm assuming by this Khun Suthep, the Deputy PM, is referring to examination of discarded kleenexes, dandruff, eyelashes and spittle left on the crime scene by the perpetrators (these pieces of evidence including all bodily fluids vary slightly in molecular structure in proper Thais compared with the Southerners of Malay extraction responsible for the outrage) which was then compared with the database covering all state officials.I'm not sure if Khunying Pornthip co-ordinated the exercise but no doubt we will hear from her soon.

Presumably this now puts all discussion of State official involvement at an end, and the Muslim terrorists can now be tracked down and punished.It just shows that the government and Khun Suthep, the outstanding deputy PM, have this problem well in hand.I hope there are no negativists who continue to insist this respected statesman is lying through his teeth.

House Speaker Chai Chidchob asks police to invite Pheu Thai Party MP Chonlanarn Srikaew out of the Parliament chambre as he refused to adhere to Chai's order to stop speaking during Budget Bill debate Thursday.

The Nation

Classic!

Since it has long been shown this side of the isle is

pretty much oblivious to parliamentary procedures.

And, as shown in the Samak Cabinet, that even READING the constitution

enough to not lose their jobs from not UNDERSTANDING their job's parameters...

is beyond their foresight.

Am I the only one amazed that the cops were brought into this? It's surely an incredibly bad precedent.

Aren't there officers of the house to enforce the Speaker's instructions? Why didn't the Speaker temporarily suspend proceedings?

...some people just can't stop themselves from talking about PAD and fascism.

Perhaps the use of classic fascist tactics by PAD over Preah Vihar has something to do with that.

The obvious solution is a joint listing and this is the policy Abhisit is pursuing.Obviously he needs to be careful in what he says because there are a bunch of crazies out there who unfortunately form part of his constituency.

Sorry you are wrong. This was what proxy-Thaksin government did (through the half-witt Nopadon). PAD & Mark was heavily against it.

Not according to this morning's Bangkok Post

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1864...eah-vihear-push

Money quote:

"I would like to see peace in the area and people from both sides benefit from a joint listing of this site," Mr Abhisit said.

Thailand remains firm that joint listing of the temple is the best solution."

The problem was and is mindless nationalism (in Thailand's case stirred up by opportunistic politicians) of two neighbouring countries who should be co-operating not fighting over an important piece of joint cultural interest.

For an umpteenth time - the problem with the listing appeared a full year before PAD brought the issue to the public eye and it had nothing to do with nationalism or border demarcation.

The co-operation ended when Cambodia declared that heritage on Thai side of the border is not worth preserving. That's a fact, and then there are their ridiculous claims that the temple originally belonged to people living under the cliff.

I haven't seen anyone on this board who agrees with their opinion, btw, and Thailand has all the rights to raise a stink at the Unesco over this mistreatement of history, too.

It's probably useless to elaborate but quasi fascist movements often seize on marginal issues but with nationalist connotations which can be exploited for political purposes.Only the most blinkered zealots would deny PAD did this over Preah Vihar, but fortunately we have moved on since then.It's irrelevant frankly that the problem with the listing appeared before the PAD "pointed it out".I'm not incidentally denying the Cambodian arguments on this issue are more than a little crazed.Does Thailand want to be compared to those wanke_rs?

One is reminded of Borges comment on the Falk;lands conflict about two bald menm fighting over a comb.

The obvious solution is a joint listing and this is the policy Abhisit is pursuing.Obviously he needs to be careful in what he says because there are a bunch of crazies out there who unfortunately form part of his constituency.