Route21

I have a modern gravel lawn! Keep it neat with weed killer!

They don't sell green stones locally! ;-) :-)

We've run out of pond water for watering the lawn. Need to dig a 2nd, much deeper pond.

Phetchabun had absolutely torrential thunderstorm yesterday evening, but no rain South of Sam Yak.

Well, the good news is we don't get our water from a "boar hole" like they appear to do in Shanghai!

The bad news is that my daughter is just about to rejoin her husband out there, with their young family!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/9921850/Nearly-3000-dead-pigs-found-in-river-supplying-Shanghais-drinking-water.html

R21

I think it is a great idea.How many bullets in the gun,my guess none.

Don't forget that the dog would, I believe, have to buy its own gun/bullets, just like the rest of the bib.

Who says a police dog can't fire a gun:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/mass-police-dog-digging-snowbank-fires-gun

R21

"Hai Bong"?? Can't find it. What district of Saraburi is it in?

Mac

Do you mean Huai Pong, which is North of Lopburi?

Regards

R21

Please read both my post and those of others.

Background

The pump/expansion tank works perfectly correctly feeding the loft tanks in the house via ballcocks. It switches on when there is a demand and off when the demand ceases. Water is in regular use somewhere in the house during daylight hours.

There is nothing, repeat nothing, wrong with the pump or the expansion tank system - full stop! As already advised, it works perfectly correctly on the (below ground and hence not exposed to daytime sunlight) supply to the house.

The problem only arises on the direct from the pump, partially above ground and hence exposed to daytime sunlight, supply to the bungalow and even then only when the bungalow outlets are not used during daylight hours.

There are no, repeat no, NRV's of any kind on the supply to the bungalow (except, as already advised, on the suction side of the pump which works perfectly correctly for the house supply).

I regard this topic as now closed, with many thanks again to those who have provided constructive suggestions.

Regards

R21

Background

The pump/expansion tank works perfectly correctly feeding the loft tanks in the house via ballcocks. It switches on when there is a demand and off when the demand ceases. Water is in regular use somewhere in the house during daylight hours.

The bungalow outlets are fed directly from the pump, without using loft header tanks. The bungalow was not occupied for a few days and hence the water outlets, which would have minimised any thermal expansion problems, during the daylight hours, were not used.

"Have you checked the PSI charge on your expansion tank?"

Don't understand your question.

There are 2 pressure switches on the pump dicharge. One shuts down the pump on a specific "high" pressure in the expansion tank. As the pressure in the expansion tank falls, when water is used at one or more of the outlets, the second pressure switch turns on the pump to meet the demand. The pump continues to operate until the first pressure switch shuts it down again. That's the way they work i.e. the tank pressure fluctuates between 2 set points depending on the demand. There's no single "psi charge" figure.

"if the psi charge in the tank is higher than the pressure required to blow the hose connection ...."

then the hose connection would have blown 6 months ago when the system was first installed!

"Also it is possible that the bladder in the expansion tank is perforated and now both chambers in the tank are filled with water, check the air valve in the expansion tank , if water comes out of it , then you have a perforated bladder."

The top section of the expansion tank is filled with air. Only when all the air has been vented and the pump was operating would any possible water appear and only if any bladder has been perforated. If no water appears, you have just disabled a working expansion system. As was explained by a previous poster, even a simple air column tee'd off from the pump discharge line (without any bladder) would protect the hose from simple thermal expansion.

If there was no air buffer in the expansion tank, the pump would be constantly tripping in and out, when, as soon as it switched on, it would hit the shutoff pressure and shut down. On shutting down, it would trigger the low pressure switch that would turn it on again.

"Final thought, is there a check valve (a valve that will allow flow on one direction only) installed between the expansion tank and the hose in question to prevent back flow?"

As explained in my original post, the only check valve in the system is on the pump suction, to enable the pump to maintain prime. It is upstream of the discharge expansion tank and so does not isolate the hose from the expansion tank. The suction NRV does, however, effectively act as an upstream isolation valve which, when combined with a closed cistern ballcock (full cistern) and closed taps/douche valve, provides no room for thermal expansion.

I hope this more clearly explains the hydraulics of automatic water pump systems such as the off-the-shelf one that we use.

Regards

R21

PS The "empty cistern" and "bladderless air expansion pipe" suggestions appear to be excellent practical ideas.

/quote]I have no local auto salvage, but I'll keep it in mind. Thanks for the response,

Eric

Whereabouts in Thailand are you?

R21

Anyone know of a store which sells replacement door or trunk lid gasket material for cars? I've again asked at my local automotive supply and had no luck.

Thanks,

Eric

Tried junk yards? There's quite a few reasonably new cars written off in accidents that might have some reusable gasket material.

Regards

R21

We've, thankfully, survived with enough water to keep us going, mainly thanks to the ground level tank being fed, via a ballcock, from the mains whenever there's any water available.

The local headman is still awaiting government funding for a new source of water. Hopefully any new source will be a tad softer than our current supply.

R21

If relief valves are out of the question then how about the old style relief of a shepherds crook?

Another off the wall solution is to install a stand pipe as an expansion tank. All this is is about 2 metres of 40mm pipe run vertically from the supply line with a cap and valve at the top. Ensure it is full of air and close the valve.

Many thanks for your 2 suggestions.

I quite like the low tech solution in #2 and may use it in situations where Crossy's empty cistern solution doesn't apply.

#1 doesn't work for the bungalow in my case, as the pump also supplies water to the loft tanks in the house and any shepherd's crook would therefore need to be higher than the house roof.

Again, many thanks for your suggestions.

Best regards

R21

Does the bungalow have a flush toilet? If so turn off the water and flush the loo, no tap to forget just turn on the water and you're good to go.

Excellent suggestion, Crossy.

Many thanks

R21

Can't really see how people think Thailand is cheap these days?BT2,500-BT3,000 for 3* hotel BKK equates to £55-65 a night.BT180 for a beer in Soi Cowboy £3-80!Meal for 2 Pizza Hut or MK's BT900 or £20.Not particularly cheap in my book.

Expat-run hotel/bar/restaurant in central Pattaya = 850 baht/night (1100 baht over Xmas/New Year).

Local Thai air conditioned bistro-style restaurant up here in the sticks = 1200 baht for dinner for 6 people, including beers or buffet elsewhere for 99 baht per head.

You pays your money and takes your choice!

Cheers!

R21

One thought l had was to isolate the bungalow at the pump end of the supply and leave one of the taps on when no one's there, but it relies on aging parents/kids that may switch it back on remembering that the kitchen tap is open. Not the best of solutions?

The pump, from the ground level tank (which is fed from the mains), feeds the indirect system in the house via 2 loft tanks but feeds the bungalow outlets/shower directly. The outside (Thai) loos are supplied under gravity (no pump required) from the outside tank.

Item 1's problem was, effectively, caused by isolation valves imediately at either end of the short hose.

We previously had the feed to the kitchen blow a joint, late one evening (in the dark) only to find that the only valve to stop the flow was under the kitchen floor at the far end of the house from the access to the underfloor void! That was cured the next day with a valve just inside the underfloor access door.

In item 2's case, the 1st we knew about it was the outside pump running for longer than normal. The line to the bungalow is a fair length and partially above/partially below ground.

Fortunately, we have isolation valves on each water feed that enters any room, so we could isolate it until the hose could be replaced, but the basic problem still exists. I'm fully familiar with thermal relief valves (and non-return valves) but haven't seen any out here in the sticks! Expansion tank(s) may be a solution, but the small one integral with the pump didn't cope.

Another related problem is that we have very hard water here, so cistern valves, shower heads and any potential relief valve/non-return valve is likely to fur up in a short space of time.

I would have liked to have used a non-return valve, as a backup, to enable us to easily convert to a pressurised direct feed from the pump in case there were any problems with the loft tanks that needed their temporary isolation. I wouldn't rely on someone inexperienced in M&E services to set the valves correctly and we could end up with the loft tanks overflowing and wrecking the upstairs ceiling - although we do have drainage from the "tray" that the loft tanks sit in.

Any more thoughts?

Regards

R21

Perhaps a expansion tank

Pump already has an integral expansion tank on the outlet.

Hi Andy

Good idea.

Makes me realise it is useful to post a reference for a construction hadbook I use.

The book is originally an american publication which has been translated into Thai.

I found it in an engineering design office. The chief architect there referred it to me for reference.

It is all in Thai but very well illustrated so you can easily identify many items to your Thai builder even if you dont know the words. I dont have the English version and to be honest it would be much better to have both versions if you want to use it best.

However it is exteremely useful considering it is cheap to buy at 350 Baht (2007 price)

The book is published by Se-ed so you can get it easily at their bookstores (try carrefour and some of the other malls some in Tesco lotus also). If they dont have a copy to hand ask them to check other stores for who has. Or just order.

It is titled "BUILDING CONSTRUCTION ILLUSTRATED" BOOK REF ISBN 974-534-820-1

See Attachment

regards

jojothai

That's the book by Ching - decades in print and used in architecture schools. I know this would be highly unlikely in Thailand , but does your Thai version look pirated... poor reprographics, etc?

Free download here : http://www.downloadfreepdfbook.com/2010/08/building-construction-illustrated-4th.html

Looks like it's been made unavailable via that link?

Don't know if anyone else has had the same problem, but we've had a number of toilet/shower hoses burst, where the ferruled end blows out from the backing nut.

The basic reason is water pipes being closed off at 2 points and the water between expanding.

2 typical scenarios:

1. Water flow to shower controlled by wall-mounted valve in feed line from loft tank. Feedline closed. Trip-valve in shower unit automatically closes on low/no flow. Water between expands, hose blows. Cured by leaving feedline valve fully open, unless replacing hose.

2. Feed to pop's bungalow comes direct from pump. Pump has non-return valve in suction, for self-priming reasons. Pop's bungalow vacant for few days. Hose to toilet cistern ruptures. Wall valve isolates ruptured hose. Douche hose alongside ruptures. Wall valve used to isolte ruptured hose.

Has anyone else had similar probs and solved them?

There's another snooker club in the hotel in the fork where the road leading back to Topland meets the 21. Don't know what it's like, but we regularly do a U-turn on the 21 directly in front of it (just before the traffic lights) when going to Topland.

Regards

R21

Found it!

Many thanks to PM from chrgrims.

It's working, but slow, as I suspect the reason it looks like sugar is ...... TIT.

The shop has a sign outside that includes "baker" in Thai phonetic English. It's on the same side as the old "farang corner", just immediately beyond the "T" junction, coming from the 21.

Regards

R21

PS: Government checks on water? Ah, yes, they check our water meter once a month!

Question, do the locals just drink the water from the tap, if they do and are not dying why can]t you?

We checked with the village headman when we started building. He said the locals don't drink the mains (blue pipe) water. They drink, depending on availability, their own well water, rain water or bottled water.

Our mains water is very hard and furs up with sandy coloured marks (iron?) everywhere where it evaporates (including shower heads, cysterns and the tap outlet mesh).

We have a small multi-chamber filter, incl. Ion-exchange and UV for drinking water, under the sink. Everything else is side-outlet storage tanks (ground & loft level).

We may have to install a larger ion-exchange unit on the (pumped) line to the loft tanks, to prevent all our shower units furring up.

Why don't they put loaded guns n the statutes of policemen at intersections?

That plan could backfire on them.

Oops!

He's even had his Unit tattooed on his back!