kenai

Anyone that prevents another person from voting is simply on the wrong side of history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qt9Ynogftk

''...in the hope that they might learn about democracy and be part of the historic events..."

kids would learn more about democracy by reading a dictionary or sleeping. At least they are spending some time with family.

255 seats out of 500 is not a landslide. It's a slight majority. Please learn about the English language. It's a great thing when used correctly.

CNN calls it a landslide, BBC called it a landslide. Maybe you should go educate them about politics too. Puea Thai won over 50% out of 40 political parties across Thailand. When you take all other 39 parties together, they can't even reach Puea Thai.

It has just been revised to 259, by the way, for Puea Thai. The Democrats at 120.

I'm sorry, it's a landslide when the difference between the 1st and the 2nd is over 100% more.

I agree, a LANDSLIDE. No doubt. But was it won legally? DOUBT. I am talking about the ILLEGAL role of Thaksin.

Jingthing, maybe it was someone else - but were you not on here a while back, debating about crowd size and informing all that the Redshirts really had very little support? This election has been a long time coming. Democracy is government by the people. Myself and others have said numerous times - there is more to Thailand then just the massive population in and around BKK. The fact is the majority of Thais do not live in Bangkok and are not wealthy or even upper middle-class. The majority of Thai Visa members are much wealthier and better educated in comparison, so maybe you would choose a different party to support. Get over it.

Try to understand the majority, they want what they believe is best for them, they have the right to choose. They have been stripped of that right over and over, its time to let the majority govern.

http://www.huffingto...m_b_684464.html

This is how much of the outside world views Thailand and its shameful politics. Sure they do not know all of the events and all the players... but anyone should be able to see by now the direction and separation that has taken place since the 06 coup.

This is how Robert A. wants us to believe the outside world views Thailand.

This is how Robert A. wants the outside world to view Thailand.

A standard Robert A. piece, twisting facts and ignoring details.

What facts are twisted. I would be interested to know.

And that is a standard reply from those that support the government, attack the messenger.

I remember a Bankokian friend of my wife telling her Thaksin owned CNN, this is a person that runs a business and has an education from the west!..... that to me is the power of propaganda and hate. And I know brainwashing is on both sides but the government has a responsibility to bring sides together, instead they have only done the opposite.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703824304575435170175485654.html how about the Wall Street Journal ... can't be trusted?

so to clarify my stance, do i beleive that the currents bombs are placed by reds? No I don't. Do I think this government deserves to be in the post? No i dont, two reasons, number one is that they were not elected to be government, and number two I think they are responsible for the wholseale murder of Thai people in central Bangkok. These thoughts do not make me a red shirt, it is possible to have these beliefs and not be pigeon holed.

So to clarify, you are not a red shirt, but you do agree with the red shirts opinion on not being responsible for this bombing, the present government is not elected, and the government is responsible for murder in Bangkok, or in other words, three out of three aspects that you mentioned are exactly in line with the beliefs of the red shirts.

uhmm... ok. You're not a red shirt since you say so.

maybe if you read all my posts you might even find the one where I clearly say I take no sides and would not be afraid to admit it if I did, I state clearly both reds and yellows are wrong but both are forced into actions because the people they elect are not up to the job. I am neither red nor yellow, but I am very anti this current government. i hope that clarifies it for you, it gets tedious having to point out the mistakes of people that just jump in without reading the whole thread and understanding it. thanks

also have the red shirts given an opinion that they are not responsible for these bombings, according to other posters on here they have already admitted they are responsible, so which is it?

Random, I for one see your thoughts clearly

My observations about Thaivisa poster (in general)... most posters on here are Bankokian and like much of the city they care little about the concerns of those in the North and Northeast and deepsouth as well.

Their views are influenced by government controlled media/propaganda in television and newspapers. They will seldom search out the viewpoint of the opposition. As for equal rights, civil liberties, freedom from censorship,due process of law... they couldn't care less as long as it does not affect the baht to dollar exchange negatively.

These are all generalizations of course.

And I am also brainwashed by friends and family in the North.

And yes, I do side with Redshirts. I support my Thai family and they feel segregated, wronged, and threatened by this government.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-amsterdam/thailand-sets-a-poor-exam_b_684464.html

This is how much of the outside world views Thailand and its shameful politics. Sure they do not know all of the events and all the players... but anyone should be able to see by now the direction and separation that has taken place since the 06 coup.

The government is corrupt as is all they control.

Why any foreigner would do significant business here is beyond me. Might as well tattoo a big red bulls eye on your forehead.

You should maybe take a stroll down and talk to your beloved mob because the vast majority of the ones my wife and I spoke to have no idea what democracy is.. unless it means their Dear Leader can return to steal, errrrr. govern again... it is so sad when people like you post nonsense with no first hand or credible information to add

And you may wish to speak to the current government and those in power and see what their idea of democracy is ... military coup? rewriting constitution?.. followed by judicial coups, media censorship, censorship of the people...?

It is understandable that many RedShirts do not know democracy they have rarely experienced it,and many are lacking in education. But do not fool yourself, I too have spoken to many and many full well know what they are getting screwed out of.

The acts of media censorship and intimidation are affecting the Internet and the list of banned websites is growing even longer. On the orders of the state of emergency administrative centre, the Ministry of Information and Communication Technologies (MICT) today approved the closure of another 350 websites, in addition to the 190 sites blocked last week and the 36 that were blocked on 7 April.

Do any other countries block hate speech websites? Seditious websites? Criminal activity advocacy websites?

Anyway, I eagerly await your analytical breakdown then on just which sites are being blocked for which reasons by which countries.

As such, Thailand is regarded as nominal, same as a whole host of other nations.

REPORTERS WITHOUT BORDERS

"The acts of media censorship and intimidation are affecting the Internet and the list of banned websites is growing even longer. On the orders of the state of emergency administrative centre, the Ministry of Information and Communication Technologies (MICT) today approved the closure of another 350 websites, in addition to the 190 sites blocked last week and the 36 that were blocked on 7 April."

"This brings the number of closed websites to 2,500. Most of the sites now banned had links with the “Red Shirts” and carried photos and video of their demonstrations, but some were independent news websites."

"Reporters Without Borders urges the authorities to restore access to the censored news websites without delay and to close media only after verifying that they contain calls for violence and after following the normal judicial procedures."

How can anyone defend a government that censors its citizens?? I know other countries do it but there is nothing right about political censorship. I do not defend Thaksin nor violence by redshirts.

also - I would like to thank the yellow supporters without whom im sure this site would have been blocked some time ago.

Just some numbers from wiki : "On August 19, 2007, a referendum was held in which 59.3% of the voters voted in favor of the constitution."

If the Reds were really the majority of Thailand then this constitution would never have passed.

The junta imposed laws for this referendum...

Criticism of it was made illegal etc etc..

just some text from wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Constitution_of_Thailand

Permanent Constitution for the Kingdom of Thailand was drafted by a committee established by the military junta that abrogated the previous 1997 Constitution. On August 19, 2007, a referendum was held in which 59.3% of the voters voted in favor of the constitution. The current constitution succeeded the former supreme law of Thailand, the 2006 Interim Constitution.

The military junta-appointed Constitution Drafting Assembly unanimously approved the draft in July 2007, despite a lot of public controversy about several clauses.[1] The junta passed a law making it illegal to publicly criticize the draft.[2] The junta also ran a successful promotion campaign leading up to the referendum.

Sooo.... the Thais that didn't like it didn't vote for it.

How can anyone justify a government that restricts public debate amongst its citizens on an issue as important as their constitution prior to vote? The citizens of have been brain washed long enough.

Reporters Without Borders has a short article from a few days ago with criticism and concern directed towards both sides as well as concern over further censorship of news organization websites.

http://en.rsf.org/

Also for a world viewpoint, Canada's largest newspaper has had a reporter in Thailand for a week and has a revealing article..

it can likely be found by google searching key words "globe mail thai power struggle"

If someone linked these already my apologies.. have not been able to keep up with the pages.

I love that opening line

""1st. 20m of 60m is not a majority" You wrote.

You are incorrect."

What part of; 'a majority is 50% or more', does this poster not understand.

No most certainly and without a doubt YOU are incorrect.

30 million +1 is a slim majority of 60 million.

But also as pointed out children don't count, only voters.

Using UN/Unicef's numbers

67,386,000 Total 2008 population

18,007,000 total under 18 population 26.7% are children

so take your 34 miilion and remove 9,078,000 or 26.7%

so then you have 24,922,000 voters + or -

So at BEST 36% of the nation if EVERY voter in Issan AND the north voted,

AND if EVERY voter in there also voted exclusively red,

which is not the case.

Which leaves 64% of the country NOT voting for the Red.

But then remove the children from that group

and the numbers come up about what we see in the polls.

And so the main difference is the relative strength of vote buying efforts,

and control of information flow / indoctrination, up in Issan by The Thaksin Machine.

I'm not an expert but I have a feeling I can find a few on here. Doesn't The PM and his party become elected by a House or Senate that is represented by each province? And if so how many provinces are in the North and NE certainly the majority of them are.

Maybe someone can fill me in on the electoral process post 2006. Thanks.

I think the real point is 7 out of 10 Thai live and work outside of cities. Not all of this large majority support PTP or Red Shirts and not all those living in cities are anti. No one is trying to play with numbers here, it is a simple fact Thai has a large rural population that is lower class.

If they had majority support then why not hold a new election? ..Why the 2006 coup?... Why constitution change? etc etc.

Isn't it obvious?

Those in power pulling the strings liked democracy only until they felt the power begin to slip, then it was a scramble to slant the table.

Governments shouldn't need to call elections every time a minority mob of thugs comes out on the streets. At the moment the government have majority support of all elected MPs, so they don't need to call elections until next scheduled in Dec 2011.

The 2006 coup happened mainly because Thaksin controlled all the checks and balances required in a democracy, by putting his family and friends in all the high positions. The one thing he didn't control was the army, but not through lack of trying.

The constitution changes were generally aimed at reducing the power of the PM, and reducing the corruption in elections. And ofcourse to keep the coup generals out of jail.

Thaksin showed that loopholes in the 1997 constitution allowed HIM to control too much. More than a leader of any democratic country should control.

I agree a country should not have to change on the demands of a group (PAD, Red Shirts) and it is sad the country averages a military coup every 10 years or so. Maybe better to never hold elections just schedule chaos, crisis, and a coup every 10 years.

I understand how you see things, but in Thailand nothings quite what is reported, labeled and stated (IMO).

The Red shirts of Thailand are nothng more than the Brown shirts of of Germany in the 30's. A groop of Thugs doing the dirty work of corrupt leaders.

hel_l of a way to spend a first post. The corruption is on all sides, this is Thailand we are talking about. The same goes for the thugs, where were you a few years ago when the PAD were making news? Maybe think about it for a few more years and see if you can come up with anything else to share.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"1st. 20m of 60m is not a majority" You wrote.

You are incorrect.

http://www.citypopulation.de/Thailand.html

2010, there were 22,334,000 in NE

There were 11,562,000 in the North.

That is nearly 34 million people.

FACT

WOW with logic like that you could be a RED leader... or I guess a PAD leader for that matter.. news flash... total population does not mean they all support any particular movement nor does it take into account that they are NOT all voting age...you really tried to twist that one hard huh?? Pretty safe to say that the longer this goes on the REDS among the normal everyday hard working folks are looking less and less like their savior.

I think the real point is 7 out of 10 Thai live and work outside of cities. Not all of this large majority support PTP or Red Shirts and not all those living in cities are anti. No one is trying to play with numbers here, it is a simple fact Thai has a large rural population that is lower class.

If they had majority support then why not hold a new election? ..Why the 2006 coup?... Why constitution change? etc etc.

Isn't it obvious?

Those in power pulling the strings liked democracy only until they felt the power begin to slip, then it was a scramble to slant the table.

If a country votes on leaders based on being simply identified with the common man,

then they get leaders like George Bush.

Y'all remember how well that good ole boy did in the top chair????

Or the oh so effective Samak the outspoken tough guy.

Please cher Rhodes list for me the public works, treaties and effective legislation

that Kuhn Samak presided over during his 8 months a PM.

A country MUST elect leaders who can work with other government leaders,

work cross border and cross culturally for the betterment of ALL citizens.

Deal with captains of industry to bring their jobs to Thailand, international banking,

communications, transport, maratime... this list of knowledge to be assimilated and decided on is staggering

Because bottom line.

Your father in law may be a lovely hard working man,

but do you REALLY think he could run a country?

Any of his circle of friends?

A country that wants to resemble democracy in any form MUST be allowed to vote in whomever they wish. They need to be allowed to make their own mistakes. The USA didn't form a military or judicial coup to get rid of Bush, we had to wait it out (8 years).

If Bush had been breaking laws he would have been removed and held accountable through the courts and constitution. Which in the US does not get rewritten anytime a new power decides it needs to.

You represent your position well and I know many million in the country feel your way. But the viewpoint of we know better then the guy on the bottom of the ladder is anti-democratic and has much to do with where Thais find themselves tonight.

I'm 90% with you but there has to be a 'truce' which includes pardoning all (except those 'blacks' who sniped - they are unforgivable and must be caught and punished). It would not be wise to keep pushing the 'Thaksin' button - better to just get to a 3 month election compromise and stop the carnage. However, a caveate, I do think there has to be some sort of 'outside' monitoring of elections.

And what if it can be proven that the grenade throwers are funded by PTP/PPP/TRT MPs or Thaksin, or were acting on orders from the red leaders? They too would then be tried on terrorism charges.

anybody... individuals (not parties) should be held fully accountable

Abhisit/Suthep ordered the army in, with live ammo, and people were killed with the live ammo on April 10th.

Therefore based on this the Democrats should be dissolved and should have terrorism charges against them.

Using live ammo against protestors is designed to "terrorize" them with fear, thats what terror is.

If of course you wish to go down these silly emotional "thoughts for the moment" kind of nonsense.

I am amazed at some of the nonsense spouted on here.

I too am amazed. The fact that so many take so much of what they hear or see through a censored and manipulated thai media shows how dangerous this situation is.

Thais having strong opinions on both sides I can understand. But I have a harder time with how farangs whom I assume have a fair education, and fair understanding of how backwards things in Thailand can be. To get drawn into the anti red shirt frenzy and feed and spread it to others is scary. (in my opinion!)

Of course they will say the same about me as a red-sympathizer but It is a little spooky reading some of anti-red posts, I mean right or wrong these people are doing what they feel is necessary for their family and their country.

And please don't bother adding about all the cash they are getting. Give me something more creative than that.

A common statement in many othreads ... "this would never happen in Europe or USA the police or national guard would put a stop to it long ago."

Thats a good point but its also true that if a political leader was found to be corrupt or criminal these countries would not use the military to overthrow the government (coup of 06). And these countries would also not then change their constitutional law so that the balance of power was more easily held by a certain group.. also these countries would not allow their airports to be held hostage for a week to change.. and then we have the judicial coups....Thailand is Thailand.

Thailand as a self governed country is only a baby. The US fought its bloody civil war nearly a 100 years after being free of Britain. How long has Thailand been free ?

Is it free?

edit for spelin

de·moc·ra·cy

1.

government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

2.

a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.

3.

a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.

4.

political or social equality; democratic spirit.

5.

the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

Who are the people of thailand? Do they have equal rights and privileges?

70% of thai population reside outside of cities so if we are talking numbers it brings up an interesting point.

If I voted for a president based on getting a tax break, should I not be allowed to vote?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Democracy

1) politicians make a lot of promises they know they can't keep

2) politicians live the life of Riley on taxpayers expense

3) the politicians main interest is to be re-elected

4) In a democracy a politicians main asset is to be able to lie while appearing totally sincere

What you call privileges and the "elite" are hard working Thais who have made something of themselves and who were fat up with Thaksins blunt theft, using the country as his own PLC. Now they are going on the streets again to fight this Thaksin inspired mob. Thais are free to do as they want. This is a free country for the Thais. What you call underprivileged means really the poor who want more of the cake but are not willing to work for it or are simply not able.

here is some news for you, In Europe and in the USA there are and have always been poor people. You probably don't know that every 6th person in The US of A would go hungry if it wasn't for institutions like the salvation army and others that offer low priced or free food items to those.

In Europe pensioners freeze during the winter because they can not afford to have the heating on.

Communism does not work as the USSR has clearly shown. The poor only get poorer and famine is the result. Communism is the ultimate capitalism with an extremely small elite that has it all and lives in luxury and the majority of the population goes hungry.

The world is not perfect but we have to live here. Those rioters have no right to cause this anarchy and apparently they are not even aware of the real agenda of their leaders.

Thanks for your insight on American democracy, poverty, healthcare.. If you didnt speak of all this my apologies maybe it was another poster assisting. Im not sure what any of it had to do with the crisis in BKK but I found it amusing and revealing.

And no I never knew 1 in 6 americans would go hungry without the help of institutions!

Your proposal would not work. It would simply cripple the banking system. The people who want to buy votes will simply transfer money to wives, minor wives, children, distant relatives, maids, employees, and other lackeys and have them withdraw it. Why should the average voter who sells his vote face more jail time than the politicians do for buying votes? Who do you propose would enforce these new laws? The police don't seem to be able to do anything at the moment, and it just gives them a simple way of disappearing anyone they have a grudge against. In a country with dishonest police, dishonest politicians, and an electorate willing to sell their votes for peanuts a fair election is a fairy tale. Calling an election at this moment in time rewards violence, anarchy and corruption. Whatever the outcome might be it will be challenged by the losing side, who now know that if you kill enough people you get to vote again.

The first sensible statement here

Abhisit was/ is working on reforming the country, but the red shirts / Thaksin will not let him since it would be against their interest. You can not have a real democracy - I don't know of any really except may be Switzerland comes close - or anything close while vote buying is the standard campaign tool.

As I said in many prior posts, those who are rioting in Bangkok right now are the same people who have sold their votes in the past and what it really comes down to is money. They want Thaksin back because he gives them money and he promised them more money when he gets back into power - everything else is brainwash

de·moc·ra·cy

1.

government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

2.

a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.

3.

a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.

4.

political or social equality; democratic spirit.

5.

the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

Who are the people of thailand? Do they have equal rights and privileges?

70% of thai population reside outside of cities so if we are talking numbers it brings up an interesting point.

If I voted for a president based on getting a tax break, should I not be allowed to vote?

Of course it was the reds. They have threatened this. Red shirt apologists, you should be ashamed.

How do you know soft lad? Practicing mental telepathy again?? You've got more nose than a lorry load of fish wives. Keep it out pal and let the Thais get on with it.

So, freedom of speech now banned ?

If your in Thailand it has always been banned in one form or another. Certainly tighter since the coup of 2006.

PAD pinks showing their true colors now ...yellow!

And same with their supporters. They have been building up a big appetite for Violence as they thought it was going to be the Reds getting shot.

TAN started out tonight with what appeared to be a balanced piece of Journalism. Then Khun Paisal stepped up to the mike with his spitting, venemous monologue.

The irony was that as he was burbling something about lawlessness, the screen was showing revolving footage of the multi-colors (the night before) lobbing bricks and bottles in the road. The reds were well out of reach and were watching bemused. One group provoking and carrying out all the violence.

Also, there were mobs shouting and screaming at the Army, making fatuous comments about the reds etc.

All the while poor old Khun Paisal was bleating and blathering and killing off the bit of reputation the women had managed to claw back for the station before he came in. He blathered about lawlessness in Bangkok (forgot the PAD), armed factions roaming the streets (forgot the PAD gunmen in Bangkok on the sound truck) he wailed about the Army doing nothing (the same nothing they did when PAD were in the airport) etc. etc. All with no sense of irony.

Well, they all wanted violence, the Army threatened it, the PAD threatened it, the PAD falangs on here called for it The Silom Mob carried it out and the real anger now is that the wrong people (as they see it) got hurt.

It is always the wrong people who get hurt and these numpties should learn to turn their backs on violence. But they won't

Well stated.

How many people would be out of work if things really broke open? I for one would not want to get between a massive movement of people that have been held back generation after generation opposed by an elite group holding the power and resources. Sound like the making of a serious problem years and years in the making.

They have more been held back by their OWN NEIGHBORS, you know the ones with the

nice country home, VERY well fenced in, and the Mercedes and the money lending business at 20% a month,

and the rice milling cartel etc etc. The guys paying slave wages to make bras using Burmese workers.

The SYSTEM of Kow Tow is alive and well,

even though most of the revenue stream no longer goes all the way to Bangkok directly.

What does goes upwards, goes into purchasing regional control rights and political position rights.

And this almost ALL stays in the POLITICAL CLASSES, tied to the regional business classes.

Access to access to the trough, must be purchased, using the fund winnowed from your underling neighbors.

The elite is right there folks in every small town around the whole nation.

Once they are holding a financial carrot and stick over their neighbors,

they have joined the ranks of oppressive elite.

And no amount of trying to 'Pass The Buck' upwards

will remove this nasty fact from the life of the poor.

And why are they able to hold that financial carrot? Thailand has not evolved nearly as much as so many would like to believe. Do you think the farmer or small shop owner or vender is going to go to the bank for a loan? How many actually hold a true land deed. Few have been educated enough to find meaningful employment. I understand how one can say the reds are bad and disrupting and being led by a bad guy. But it is their country and people will go to incredible measures to shape the destiny of a homeland.

In the end what I believe or know doesn't much matter. Ask a redshirt on the street what they want.

How many people would be out of work if things really broke open? I for one would not want to get between a massive movement of people that have been held back generation after generation opposed by an elite group holding the power and resources. Sound like the making of a serious problem years and years in the making.

That might happen if this was really about the poor vs the elite.

The problems in Thailand have more to do with corruption at ALL levels of society than anything to do with the poor and elite.

Corruption has plenty to do with it. It does seems the corruption has been benefiting a certain portion of the population much more than the other.

How many people would be out of work if things really broke open? I for one would not want to get between a massive movement of people that have been held back generation after generation opposed by an elite group holding the power and resources. Sound like the making of a serious problem years and years in the making.

Now I have a question.

Do you think the Government is handling what happened on the 10th April Transparently?

I think they have to. There is too much independent information out there.

There is no evidence that I have seen, or heard of, that shows the army doing something that was clearly unacceptable.

There was the France24 video of the soldiers shooting at protesters, but that was just after they were bombed with a grenade, and even France24 came out with a followup article backing the soldiers.

Even the reds haven't come up with evidence that the army stepped out of line. Certainly nothing that has much credibility, anyway.

They have paraded a few dead bodies, but there is no independent details of how they were killed.

I haven't seen much detail on the autopsies, but apparently they were done independently.

Maybe some red supporters can correct me if I've missed something that they've seen or heard.

Until now there are only 9 autopsy results released of the 25 murdered and then the only information released is that they were shot with high power rifles

mostly in the head and through the Heart. What about the other 16? In 1 victim the bullet was still there so which weapon was used? Should be easy to tell.

Shot through the heart! these were professionals! I mean how many Thais even Know where the heart is??

In the Thai TV you only see videos of the Soldiers who were killed time after time after time the same video its as though no civilians were killed, with one exeption the

guy who was shot in the head but then the media takes forensics into its own hands and claimes he could not have been killed by Soldiers because of the way he fell!

What about official forensic evidence of that??

How many of the 800+ injuries were from rubber bullets and how many from live ammo? How many people are registered missing?

You haven't seen the evidence because its all being blocked including videos on Youtube and hundreds of websites are also being blocked. Why?? Scared of the trough?

Now they are claiming there are terrorists in the Red Shirts but they don't want to give out the information as not to cause panic!!

But have no problem announcing they are surrounding them with Soldiers in positioned in High rise buildings, equiped with what?? Sniper rifles? who knows but I can imagine it would cause plenty of panic amongst the protesters!!

If the the Government were being transparent about the whole thing I may just believe them but to me its seems like a massive cover up and demonetization.

There is so so so much more

If it was being held transparently videos and photos such as this would have been in every newspaper and television in the country. This video is very graphic. I have not been keeping up on events daily with this forum so my apologies if it has been discussed already.

this is a link http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f1...hot-head-46162/