ilgitano

All the financials are done now, just the english test. Tomorrow bangkok.

Another question: There is a wait of one week to get a test certificate, for the english test. Now I thought I saw somewhere that they will pass or fail on the day of the test (tomorrow) and if you pass, they can give you a reference number or receipt that is good enough for a visa application. Is that true? I don't recall where I saw that, so I don't know if it's accurate. Otherwise I'll have to ensure the appointment is a week or so after the english test.

I fly thursday, and it would be good to get everything done and dusted on monday.

Thanks for your replies,

Checked with Nationwide and they will stamp copies while I wait at no cost, so that seems to be sorted.

Given the visa cost, I don't want to take a chance on translations, so I'll do that in BKK, when I get there. From memory there are plenty of translation shops in the foyer of the visa building. I don't think there is much to translate. I have marriage cert translation with me. That leaves Tabien Baan, and ID card. I'll be staying nearby.

Wait time for appointments (any visa except student visas) is 3 days right now.

Just need all the VAF4A financials signed now. Bank statements and payslips, and cover letter.

Gotta do the sponsorship cover letter as well.

I bank online, and I can see myself running into not being able to get the bank to certify the statements. It might be better to get a letter from my employer stating income and current employment status. Would that be good enough?

Any comments on what is happening in this link:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/britain-expat-forum-expats-living-uk/248249-certified-bank-statements-experts-needed.html

FYI: electronic signatures have legal support since 2000 or so now. PDF documents can be electronically signed (genuine cryptographic signature, not just a pretty picture signature overlay, unforgeable) I've been signing contract/accounting form PDFs for years now. I notice that bank PDF statements are not cryptographically signed. My accountant did ask that I support the crypto signature with a scan of my paper signature. Does mean I would have to supply a memory stick with the statements on it with printouts.

@theoldgit My bank statements, I appreciate, have to be statements (and will be) I have no issue with that. I guess that effectively answers the question, since my wifes passbooks will be good enough on her side. The only thing I want to prove with those is that she has received support funds I've been sending over the years. Matching xfers sent from my account to hers.

@rasgI assume only my statements will need to be validated? Since financial requirements will be met entirely by me, based on income. That is a new one. Understandable in hindsight I guess, hope I can those from the local branch quickly. And I'm sure they'll want £5 a page. My payslips come by email, are prints of that good enough?

I recall seeing on support documents for visit visas that passbooks are good enough, but I haven't seen equivalent detail on support documents required for spouse visa. No clear comment that passbooks are good enough.

What happened with the overstay was a misunderstanding on my part. I had assumed that she had 6 months on entry to the UK. Like in thailand, a visit visa is 3 months from date of entry, and the UK up to about 2006 was like that. Since then though, the six months is from visa issue. She was issued the visa two weeks before coming to the UK. She left the UK 5 months and 3 weeks after arriving, six months and one week after the visa was issued.

I know, up to me to keep up with things like that.

With regards to translations and my nervousness with parting with that much up front: Failed applications will be refunded, £25 processing fee. Based on that I can just submit without translations, and they'll tell me to come back with translations if I need them. Authenticated translations are much cheaper in BKK than in CM, or translate them if I have time while in BKK.

All up fees look to £1185 visa + £500 2.5 years NHS, £1685 in total. I had incorrectly thought the NHS part was going to be £1000

Hi all,

This weekend I will be filling in a spouse visa for the wife. She has previously visited, for 6 months. I have a few questions:

1. For the visit visas I never bothered with translations. I never had any issues with that. Is the spouse visa any different? Are translations required?

2. For the visit visa, we supplied passbooks, but a friend is saying that bank statements are now required. Is that true?

3. Does the full spouse fee, some £1200 AND NHS surcharge (I don't know how much) have to be paid in full up front? I thought the NHS surcharge was collected later.

4. For her visit visa, she accidentally overstayed one week (my fault) and basically the visa comeback was why we don't get a partner visa, will this be an issue? She missed out on another visitors visa because of that.

4. Once all that is done, what is the appointment lead time.

I am heading over for a few weeks in a few weeks. She is in the process of getting her english test done and has just got the TB certificate. As far as I can tell, the rest of the documentation is much as for a visitors visa.

The fees, thousands, in full up front makes me very nervous.

Many thanks. Any answers appreciated.

However, to get one then you, or rather your wife, has to convince the ECO that, on the balance of probabilities, she does not intend to remain in the UK after her visit visa has expired and does not intend to use frequent successive visits as de facto residence.

That being the crux of it I suspect: What is the distinction between visit and resident. I had assumed one could be resident fewer than 6 months per year but qualify on the basis of going to school and/or working.

One could be a visitor for greater than 6 months per year similarly because they don't go to school or work.

If she is with me for greater than 6 months, then the assumption is that she is taking up schooling or work on the sly, right? She must be doing something 'productive' with all that spare time. Traditional housewife can't be believed.

Thanks 7by7, you've been immensely helpful

The documentation requirements for spouse actually don't add much to the document pack that is needed for a visit visa: Proof that previous marriages are finished, english language, and TB screening. About 10 pages.

Plus the necessary documents to show that the financial requirement is met.

I believe I had to satisfy the same financial requirements on the visitors visa, so those documents are already in the pack. Have to keep them current though.

If a visit visa is what she wants, then a visit visa is what she should apply for. The ECO is not going to refuse a spouse application but issue a visit visa instead.

If she were to be refused FLR or ILR for some reason, then I suspect any ECO would view a subsequent visit visa with suspicion; possibly seeing it as an attempt to get back into the UK and remain after the visit visa had expired.

I know that bobrussell says, and has said before, that there is not a type of visa for what you require. But IMHO he is wrong, there is; a visit visa.

However, to get one then you, or rather your wife, has to convince the ECO that, on the balance of probabilities, she does not intend to remain in the UK after her visit visa has expired and does not intend to use frequent successive visits as de facto residence.

Sorry, I didn't state my point clearly: If, after say 2.5 or 5 years, she is not given another FLR because she is not spending enough time in the UK, if we then (or instead) apply for a visit visa we would probably get it since she's proved over the last few years she is indeed only visiting, not resident.

My understanding of FLR has changed though. I believe that if she has FLR, then there is no minimum residency requirement. She can stay out of the UK as much as she likes, as long as she returns every 6 months. Even the 6 months maximum duration out of the UK is not hard and fast, as long as she has a good explanation. Eg having a baby in her home country would allow maybe 10 months as being reasonable. Not that thats in our plans.

So she could if she wanted live in thailand and come to the UK for a few weeks twice a year without problem.

Of course, after five years of that, she would not meet ILR requirements of 270 days out of UK maximum in the prior three years, 90 days max in the last year. She would have no problems being issued FLR indefinitely as long as all the requirements are met though.

Is that correct?

There is no maximum time allowed out of the UK whilst qualifying for FLR and after that ILR. Although when applying for each she would need to show that she is a UK resident; which may be difficult to do if she has spent more time out of the UK than in.

Covered by ensuring that she is in the UK when FLR expires and extending it while in the UK, correct? Seen that advised in the gov supporting documents. And if declined FLR for that reason, it should be easy to get a multi-year visit visa I would think.

Alright, with regard to the actual spouse visa application. The application must be made in thailand, understood. What does that get? I'm guessing here that the visa she gets is valid for 33 months, but she must get a biometric ID card from immigration within 30 days of entering the UK?

how can it be Right of a Family life if you only want her to stay for six months? If you want her to stay permanently there is the Settlement Visa, so how are Human Rights disregarded?

The idea is that I stay here, working and we save money. We have land, and want to save to build on it, maybe set up a business for retirement of some kind. We can save a lot more if she is not here with me, her cost of living in thailand is much less than if she was living here. We have already spent long periods apart while I have worked here in the UK over the last 11 years, a year to 18 months being fairly typical. We maintain nearly continuous contact, calling, Line and Skype pretty much daily. So, we have our reasons.

The problem you and she have is that you are married and have been together for 11 years.

You live in the UK, she in Thailand.

OK, you say that she does not want to live in the UK with you, only wants to visit; but why should the ECO believe you? Most married couples want to live together, especially if they have been together as long as you.

I am not saying that you are attempting to use visit visas to bypass the settlement route; but others have tried to do so and the burden of proof that you do not intend to do the same rests with you and your wife.

You have to convince the ECO that she really is a genuine visitor and is definitely not attempting to use a visit visa to by pass the settlement route.

Saying that the cost of a long term visa is about the same as the cost of a settlement visa is not enough. There are other costs involved in settlement, the NHS surcharge, the FLR and ILR applications, the various required English and LitUK tests, which are not incurred in a visit application, even a 10 year one.

Plus, the requirements for settlement, as theoldgit says above, are harder than they are for a visit; especially the financial one.

I don't think you have any chance of success going down the human rights route.

Firstly, as Beano says, it is your choice to live apart. If you do want to live together in the UK then she should apply for settlement.

Secondly, Article 8 of the ECHR is a qualified right

ARTICLE 8

Right to respect for private and family life

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family

life, his home and his correspondence.

2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the

exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the

law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of

national security, public safety or the economic wellbeing of the

country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection

of health or morals,

Signatory countries, including the UK, have successfully argued in the European Court of Human Rights that their visa regime is covered by the parts I have highlighted.

If she does apply for and be granted a settlement visa she would not be imprisoned in the UK for 5 years!

There is no maximum time allowed out of the UK whilst qualifying for FLR and after that ILR. Although when applying for each she would need to show that she is a UK resident; which may be difficult to do if she has spent more time out of the UK than in.

Once she has ILR then she can leave the UK for any period up to 2 years; if she was out of the UK for longer than that her ILR would lapse and she would need the appropriate visa to enter the UK again.

Of course, if, once she had ILR, she applied for naturalisation as British then, like any other British citizen, she could leave the UK for as long as she wished and always be allowed back in.

The residential requirements for that are tougher than for ILR, though. As she is the spouse of a British citizen she must have been legally in the UK on the exact date three years before her application is received and during that three years have spent no more than 270 days out of the UK with no more than 90 days in the final year.

You say there is no maximum time allowed out of the UK whilst qualifying for FLR and after that ILR. Can you point me to some references for that? I have been trying to find further information on that.

My understanding is that she can only apply for FLR twice for a total of 5 years, then must apply for ILR or be denied further right to enter? And to get ILR she must not have exited the UK for longer than 6 months in any 12 month interval. Now stuck the other way - she cannot leave for more than 6 months.

The documentation requirements for spouse actually don't add much to the document pack that is needed for a visit visa: Proof that previous marriages are finished, english language, and TB screening. About 10 pages. If I add these and make the point that this is sufficient for a spouse visa, but we only want the visit visa? Then she is leaving by clear choice. Chose to visit, not to settle. Would that work?

It occurs to me we could go the settlement route, and at the end failing to get FLR (not in the country enough) would probably be evidence enough that a visit visa is what we need.

I'm inclined to put the above reasoning into a request for reconsideration and highlight that this is clearly a section 8 (human rights, EC 'right to a family life') matter.

Based on:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/424016/considering_hr_claims_from_visitors_guidance_v1_0_ext.pdf

So:

1. Would this be a good idea?

2. Where do I send such a request-for-reconsideration?

3. Any formatting requirements?

A spouse visa is for an applicant who intends to settle in the UK, and yes the evidence required is totally different, she, or you as her sponsor, would need to satisfy the financial requirements, she would need to pass a simple spoken English test, take a medical examination to prove she's clear of TB.

That visa is only valid for three months, on arrival in the UK she would need to collect a residence permit which allows her to live in the UK, that permit has to be collected within 30 days of the visa being issued.

She doesn't need to be married to apply for a spouse visa, as long as you can prove that you've been living together in a relationship akin to marriage, that is sufficient.

As you've discovered a general visit visa only allows a holder to stay in the UK for six months in any year. These visas are designed for actual visitors, not those who wish to spend longer periods in the UK, if the ECO or Border Force Officer suspect the visa holder is trying to use a visit visa to bypass the settlement route, they could, and can, deny enty.

Thanlks,

Looks like you've nailed the why, but I don't understand it. No questions have been raised about the reality of our marriage. Based on that I would have thought that we would have a free choice of visit visa, up to 6 mo each and settlement visa. So, yes, in effect we want to 'bypass' the settlement visa. What we would like to get is the 5 or 10 year multiple visit visa. 6 mo/yr is quite acceptable to us (she would visit anywhere from a few weeks to 6 months. Understandably her first few visits might be nearer the 6 months end.

We don't want the settlement visa, because that locks her in the other way, she can't spend less than 6 mo a year in the UK, and will only be allowed about 5 years, then MUST apply for permanent residence. Not what we are looking for.

Why is this not allowed?

The assumption seems to be that she wants to use it to cheat the system and sneak in. That to me seems to be patently absurd, since she has legitimate claim to a spouse visa, and the costs are about the same for a 5-10 visit and initial settlement. What am I missing?

Admittedly, I have applied twice for two single entry 6 month visas, at £85 each. I applied for those to 'test the water', and they turn arround in two weeks. Are they maybe assuming that I'm trying to get her in on the cheap, and then not return?

These visas exist: vist visas, 5-10 years, 6 months/year visitors. Used to be in family now merged into general visitor. How do we get one?

Long post, sorry. By the way, this is about UK visas. Been stuck there for the last 2 1/2 years on a 9-5 job. No more year working / year in LOS.

Hi all,

I have been married to my thai gf of 11 years for a year now. I've been living with her on pretty much alternate years for the last 8 or so years.

I applied for a visitors visa for 6 months, which she got. That was a year ago, she was with me for six months and returned in may (2015)

We applied for a second visitors visa which was turned down. That was admittedly my fault: I read duration of stay 180 days and assumed the visa worked like thai visas. The visa was issued a week earlier however and she stayed for 179 days, resulting in a one week overstay. We had no clue about that until we reapplied and got turned down for not explaining that.

Two reasons were given: no explanation for the one week overstay and insufficient evidence that she will return. It will be difficult to prove that she will return because she is wholly supported by me, though she does have land and some rental income, which was documented. We can't supply any more evidence than we have.

On her first visit, she was detained at heathrow airport for 6 hours on suspicion she is not a visitor.

Why is this? I clearly meet the financial threshold, rented accommodation is ready, I have been employed here in the UK for 2 years now.

I would have thought that applying for a visitors visa would be just a rubber stamp. We can either apply for a family visit visa or a spouse visa. The fact that we're applying for a visit visa then implies she must be a visitor since we have free choice about what visa type to use, and have clearly chosen visitor. She has no need for deceit.

Are the standards of proof for a spouse much higher than for a visit visa? If I supplied all the support documents showing that we could get a spouse visa, then stating that we want a visit visa, not a spouse visa, will that be accepted as sufficient evidence that she wants to return, by clear choice?

Also, at her initial interview, the interviewer asked why she wasn't applying for a spouse visa. This also came up when she was detained at heathrow. Am I missing something here? This is a family visit visa, what I want is for her to be able to freely visit, and up to six months a year works fine for us. I don't get why we can't just get a five or ten year visa that lets her do that.

Getting a spouse visa limits her the other way, she cannot be out of the UK for extended periods of time, and puts her on a path to residency she isn't that interested in. Does have the advantage that she can go to school and work here though.

Any suggestions on how to deal with this?

Right now, looks like we're being forced to spouse visa.

Also, as part of the spouse visa documents required: She is hill tribe, Laos border, Akha. She was married per hill tribe customs, and has two adult children by that. No paperwork exists for that of course, so by thai law she was never married. A spouse visa requires that we prove any prior marriages have broken down iretrievably. How do we go about that? Do I just get documents from the amphur showing that her only recorded marriage is to me or something? How do we explain two adult children?

At the provincial government offices on the road to Mae Rim there is an off ice that certifies copies of documents. First floor next to the PP office.

Thats where I went to get my 'Freedom to marry' translation legalised. So they will 'certify' a Thai ID is genuine as well? I THINK I read that on their wall poster detailing services on offer, but can't remember the exact wording.

Just went through the whole song-and-dance myself. I am a dual UK/NZ national, and was married /divorced in NZ, so I got the "Free to marry" documents done via NZ embassy and NZ passport. Unofrtunately I entered Thailand this time on my UK passport so had to copy both passports to the Amphur, since my visa was in the UK passport, and "freedom to marry" was on my NZ passport. Foolish, but I got away with that. If I'd had my wits about me, I would have entered on my NZ passport.

Still had a problem though, my wifes ID card is an 8-series ID number, and the Amphur wanted a whole slew of documents to back it up. Those documents were retained by Mae Tang when her ID card was issued, and we are informed that they have probably been destroyed. She's had her ID card for about 3 years now, and it was a major accomplishment for her. We ended up finishing the paperwork in Mae Tang, where her ID card was issued, with no problem at all.

We're about to start the visa process for her to go to the UK with me, and I'm worried the same thing will happen again. She has a Thai passport, and in hindsight I think there may have been no problem if she presented her Thai passport at the same time she presented her ID card, at Amphur Chiang Mai.

So my question is, is there something I can do to certify her ID card, to forestall this kind of hassle? Could presenting her passport with her ID in this kind of situation help?

Shes not gainfully employed, so no payslips. I've already filled in the form on the UKBA website. I was stumped on how and where the evidence was to be submitted, and how much is enough. I don't want to spend huge amounts of time collecting documents, and yes I have the PDF which lists all the things I could provide. I was hoping for guidance on how much is enough.

We qualify for the de-facto partner thing, but I don't want to deal with the documentation requirements for that, they seem to be a bit more onerous. In the future, if she likes it here, there may well be a settlement visa application.

The UK visa basics page is behind the times, what with the new online procedures. I was looking for up-to-date experience, which you now have.

Sorry, missed the settlement visa bit, but everything I read in this thread seems to be relevant to any visa as far as I can see. Any reason to limit it?

I am a UK resident and passport holder. I have been with my partner since 2005 now. I will be visiting thailand in mid october, and I'm hoping to bring her back for a visit; say 3-6 months tourist visa.

I have alternated living in Chaing Mai, thailand, 1-2 years at a time and the UK 1-2 years also over that period.

I've been keeping her all that time, and can show it pretty easily with bank statements from about 2007. She has land we've bought in CM in her name as well, we plan to build on when I've saved some more money. Since I alternate between Thailand and UK every few years, I can only show phone records for the last 2 years. We keep in almost daily contact, by skype and phone.

I work in IT and have a good job paying well over double the minimum per person of 18600/yr so the minimum financial requirements aren't an issue.

So, would 2 yrs phone records, bank statements evidencing my payslips for the last six months, and supporting her for the last 7 years be enough? Just how much running arround will I have to do to assure my application will pass?

I plan to be there about 4 weeks arriving mid october. I believe the process from interview to approval is about two weeks. So we should have the form printed, and interviews booked within a few days of my arrival to make this work. Is this a viable plan of attack?

I would just leave/enter thailand on your thai passport. You have no further need to reenter on your Oz passport, and if anyone stops you on the street here, show them the thai passport.

Look up wiki dual nationality. You're dealing with two sets of laws, oz and thai. Oz permits dual nationality, but thailand does not, but its not enforceable.

In saudi arabia and other countries, it is a criminal offence to hold a second nationality, but in thailand it is not. It is just "not allowed"

just make sure you keep your oz passport out of sight while you're in thailand.

I'm in a somewhat similar position. I have both UK and NZ passports. I tried changing over while returning from malaysia, and since he couldn't find the exit stamp I had to stay with the first passport. I tried once at mai sai to just come straight back in to thailand without crossing into burma and got told I had to cross into burma. No exit stamp (from burma)

I've reached the same conclusion lopburi3 has - fly to some other country, and changeover the passport on entry at the airport.

The OP only needs to fly into Laos, and change over his passport on arrival, so he'll have the required entry stamp. As long as he's using land travel, he's stuck with the one passport.

I have noted that on entry/exit to UK on uk passport, and entry/exit to NZ on NZ passport, nothing is entered in the passport (no stamps) so arriving at the airport in Laos with a completely unmarked passport should be perfectly reasonable.

Don't take this as ironclad, these are only my own conclusions from experience. I have used both passports, I have changed over once only - went from NZ to UK on entry to the UK, been on the UK one ever since.

Hi again,

Right after posting here, I found lots of discussion in the Visas forum - lots of people getting bit. It seems that this 4x only applies at Mae Sai. One report of someone then going to Mae Sot with no issues. So I guess my next stop is Chiang Khong or Mae Sot. Only need to hold out for a few weeks yet.

And yes there is a circled "4" there by the last stamp, Not very clear.

Hi all,

I just got back from a visa run to Mae Sai, and was told that this is my "last time here" .

I have a 9 month, followed by a six month and 3 month tourist visas. I tried for a six month last time in Laos, but they only gave me a 3 month - If I had thought double entry would not be a problem (having done my homework) I would have gone to savannakhet; so that put a spanner in the works for me. I have work starting in the UK first week of april, and don't want to go back before then.

Since I couldnt get a double entry, I've been on mae sai visa runs every two weeks, just got my third time today. I need to go through two more times.

I know a couple years back there were limits on how many times you could go through - 90 days total - has that regulation or something like it been resurrected?

Anyone had something like that happen in the last few weeks? Anyone know whats happening?

A quick search here doesn't immediately tell me ... and I am somewhat nervous.

Just a heads up, Acer Chiang Mai aren't on Huay Kaew anymore - gate guard said two years now. They're at Chiang Mai gate now.

That was a right hoot - I started by going to Computer plaza near Chang Phuak gate, remembered acer being there about 4 years ago, but I think that might have been Asus. A cosmetics minimart now. From there, went to Huay Kaew office as shown in google maps. Got told they moved about two years ago to Chiang Mai gate.

Right up the road from me.

Now, how do I correct Google maps...

Edit:

New offices were the Home Plaza Co., Ltd next to LG Electronics office on Bumrung Buri, Chiang Mai gate

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=18.781503,98.985948&hl=en&ll=18.781507,98.985947&spn=0.003901,0.004136&sll=18.781503,98.985948&sspn=0.00196,0.002068&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=18.781503,98.985948&panoid=wYDbNO1iRACt1y8__KLPBQ&cbp=12,350.89,,0,1.75

Looks like the pic was taken just after Home Plaza moved out, and just before Acer moved in.

Given that her only family here are her daughters, it could be that one of the daughters is the real mother.

That happens very, very often here that grand parents will takeover care of a child and raise as there own with single parents as grandparents have the time they do not have.

But if this is the case here, nobody knows it. There would be no reason for my GF to hide it that that I am aware of (got 25yr daughter and 22 yr son already, no reason to hide a third)

Mayhaps the daughter of the 25yr old girl? The ages are right at the edge of whats reasonable.

My GF was working in Bangkok over the pregnancy and birth, so did not witness it. She was sold into marriage against her will (3000THB - 1987) and never forgave her mother for that. She has been on better terms only over the last five years or so, so it may be that she doesn't know everything.

hi,

sorry if this is a daft question. when you say blood work, do you mean DNA testing or just plain blood type?

could the thai authorities have assumed because she had a different blood type that the mother, then she wasnt hers. some kids have different blood groups than their respective parents, this is quite normal.

sorry if I am way off the mark here but you know how silly thai officials can be.

good luck no matter what happens.

First line of the report is a blood test. From there they go on to 16 different points on the DNA of them both.

I just got the story of why she has no birth papers. To get the papers, the mother has to present herself at the police station with the baby and have an officer sign off on it. She did that, but the officer refused to sign off. He said she was an opium addict, and he wasn't going to sign off.

In other words he required baksheesh and she didn't have it.

True she was an opium addict. She came from china with nothing, and in a poor village she was the poorest. She doesn't use now since it is too hard to get and too expensive, and of course has serious consequences in getting and using it these days. Forced to go cold turkey. My GF had to grow up in that, and she's one of the finest people and best buddhists I know.

ilgitano, in your OP you mentioned that your GF's younger sister is 11 years old. What is the age of her older sister?

Apologies, she's actually 13 - hey I see her maybe twice a year! Terrible memory for birthdays and all.

Three sisters in all - 13yr, 25yr and 39yr (GF is 39yr) No other blood relations of the mother. Emigrated from China maybe 30years ago via Laos when her husband died.

The 25yr girl has a 7yr(?) old son, and my GF (39) has a daughter (25yr) and a son (22yr)

And yes, my GF has a daughter the same age as her sister. The sister was born one month before GFs daughter.

The 13yr old sister is the spitting image of the 25yr old sister. Not having papers we're not 100% sure of the ages of the 13yr of the 39yr GF. Sister could be 12 yrs old for example. We're pretty sure of the 25yr old girls true age though (born one month before GFs daughter, and she has papers)

My GF was working in Bangkok for the duration of the pregnancy and the birth.