dumbnewbie

Hang on mate, what about the part in your post where the sister says - 'She have many customer but she wait for you' ?????

Is it possible that she just serves drinks like a waitress at a bar in the West? Are all these girls prostitutes? Does it depend on what kind of bar it is? (I don't know - I'm asking).

Not trying to be cynical here, but have you ever actually been to Thailand or visited these bars?

I have, but my experience of both is rather limited. I've been to gogo bars. OK, that's obvious - the girls "dance" naked on stage, and then they come around to your table and ask if you'd like a drink, or would like to "go out", in which case they'll discuss a "take out fee" for them to "leave work". I don't remember if these are the correct terms, but whatever.

But there are other kinds of bars, right? I hardly drink, so I don't go to bars to sit and drink... maybe that's why I don't know about this stuff. I just figured there must also be normal bars in Thailand which have actual waitresses who aren't also hookers, or that some of the girls will just be waitresses while others will also do sexwork. No?

Hang on mate, what about the part in your post where the sister says - 'She have many customer but she wait for you' ?????

Is it possible that she just serves drinks like a waitress at a bar in the West? Are all these girls prostitutes? Does it depend on what kind of bar it is? (I don't know - I'm asking).

The girl you met has not gone back to her villiage to think about you. She was calling you from a quiet area in the bar in between servicing other clients. The girl that claims to be her sister isn't her sister shes a fellow bargirl. You are being LIED to.

Throw in a greedy isaan family, a kid, a Thai boyfriend / Husband lurking in the distance and you'll be in for a whale of a time..

Well, if she ever says anything about a "sick buffalo" all bets are off.

And I want to agree with what the other poster said. As a young guy, don't be hanging out with bargirls. You can easily meet a normal girl.

Good advice, but how's he supposed to know who's a "normal girl" in Thailand? Bargirls don't just work in bars.... they go to clubs too, as customers... they go shopping, they walk down the street... do you see what I mean?

Let me ask it this way - if he wanted to meet a normal Thai girl, where should he go, and how should he go about it? I heard normal Thai girls don't want to be seen with foreigners, lest they be mistaken for bargirls or prostitutes. Is this true?

they are not sisters - they are looking for foreigners only for monetary reasons -

But... isn't that too cynical? Do you really know they're doing it only for money? Don't a lot of these girls want a real relationship so they don't have to do this kind of work? I'm sure you're right about a lot of them, maybe most of them. But all or even nearly all? I hope that's not true.

you stay with her, you have to pay sooner or later - you don't, problems will come - you do, problems will arise later.

What sort of problems will come if he doesn't pay her? (I agree he shouldn't give her money if it's a real relationship).

Well, what I can tell you is that Thai prostitutes in general are nothing like prostitutes anywhere else. OK, not that I have experience with them anywhere else - what I mean is that they're nothing like the stereotypical Western prostitutes that you see in the movies (nasty!). Thai prostitutes tend to be sweet, and are almost like girlfriends - thus the term "the girlfriend experience", which as far as I know is pretty unique to Thailand. Not sure why that is... maybe due to the tolerant, gentle Buddhist culture? I feel like I just said something very naive, but I really would like to know the reason for this difference.

The girl you met appears to be what they call in Thailand a "bar girl" (her sister told you she had lots of "customers", right? So she works there... but I'm not exactly clear on the difference between a prostitute and a bar girl.)

Doesn't mean she's a bad person. Doesn't mean she's not genuinely interested in you. My guess is that a lot of these girls would like nothing better than a real Western boyfriend who will marry them and take care of them so they don't have to be bar girls anymore.

But I'm probably not the best person to give advice about this - I don't have much experience in this area. I hope you get some kind replies, because I'd like to learn more myself.

Rightfully so IMO. Just difficult or near impossible for people who have virtually no assets in Thailand (which after generations and generations anywhere is kind of odd).

Nothing odd about it - the vast majority of people in every country ("rich" countries included) have no assets to speak of. Most people everywhere are a month or two away from poverty if they lose their income. Taxes, debt and children keep the masses from ever accumulating any wealth/freedom.

The exact kind of folks who are likely never to return (not a huge issue in itself) and likely to create a financial drain on the host country.

Then again, every country needs cheap labor. The US lets millions of Mexican and Central American peasants just walk across the border every year, and no effort whatsoever is made to deport those people. So why so hard on Thai and other people?

Happy anniversary indeed !!!

We cheated the west and we cheated the Jap.

Banzai ! Banzai ! Hurrah ! Hurrah !

We didn't have the rape of Bangkok

We didn't have the old soldier's constitution (Although any constitution won't last long in TL HAHA)

Diplomats of all small countries should study Thai case....

Agree! I really admire the Thai government's flexibility and ability to maintain independence with so much turmoil raging around the country these last couple hundred years. They were very smart about balancing other powers against each other in order to preserve Thai independence. Thailand is like bamboo - it sways with the wind, and never breaks. They keep good relations with everyone as much as possible, but especially with whoever is strongest at the moment. That's just smart in my book. How come so few other countries have this kind of common sense?

I didn't know that the Chinese kicked the Burmese out of Thailand. How did the Thais pull that one off? Pretty awesome.

Around 1860 Thailand did offer offer Abraham Lincoln an elephant but he turned it down informing Thailand that America used steam power instead of elephants but he did appreciate the gesture.

It would be nice for all concerned if the requirements to get a visa were more transparent.

Apparently the "requirements" someone listed above are not quite right, as someone else said his girl got a visa w/out anywhere near that amount of money.

There are also factors which disqualify one for a visa, I think - isn't any history as a sex-worker or bar girl one such?

Here you go: What countries can Thai citizens go to w/out a visa?

Oh, c'mon! 159 views and not one reply??

Why ashamed? Because in the 1970's Iran was a great country, on the verge of becoming a first world country and one of the great powers. (Hey, it's got a bigger population than the UK or France, so why not?). But now, it's just another F-ed up Muslim country, and everyone thinks that's what Iran is all about. The first thing everyone pictures is scowling, crazy Ayatollahs, fearful women scurrying around in black sheets, bearded savages waving their fists in the air and screaming "Death to America! Death to British! Death to Israel!", etc. People are stoned to death for having sex. Girls are whipped until bruised and bloody for not covering all their hair, have their lips sliced with razor blades for wearing lipstick, etc. Virgins are raped before being executed because virgins can't go to hel_l. The kind of torture that goes on there every day these last 30 years makes anything that happened at Guantanamo or Abu Graib look like a joke by comparison. It's hel_l on earth, and it's terribly embarrassing.

This world is a very strange place. That same year that Iran fell from grace and descended into hel_l, China went the opposite direction. In 30 years time, those two countries essentially traded places. Through no virtue of their own, ordinary Chinese people can feel pride today. Through no fault of our own, ordinary Persians feel horrible shame instead. Try to understand how this must feel. The way I deal with it in my own mind is to say "look - ethnicity and religion are two different things. I can't help being half-Persian. There shouldn't be any shame in that. But Iran isn't so messed-up because of ethnicity. It's messed-up because of religion, and people can change their religion. In fact, Islam isn't the original religion of Persia - it was imposed on the people by brutal invaders, just like Catholicism was forced on the indiginous peoples of Latin America. (Guess where the Catholics learned it from?) I'm against that religion because it ruined the country of my heritage, is causing untold suffering there and all around the world, and ruined the image of Persian people everywhere."

Back in the 70's, the Persian passport was a valuable, prestigious document that earned it's bearer a warm welcome almost everywhere in the world. Iran was seen as a wealthy, exotic, fascinating land; the people were considered charming, fun, intelligent and civilized. Today, it is one of the worst passports to travel with - only about 7 countries grant visa-free entry, it's very hard to get visas to other countries, and even then you'll be treated with suspicion. And rightly so. Sad. Shameful. Embarrassing. Think about it sometime.

Harcourt -

I don't know - I'm probably biased. See, I'm half-Persian. My father grew up in Iran back in the 1920's and 30's (I'm not that old - I just had an old father - his second marriage). At that time, Iran had a very good government, under a secular-minded king (Reza Shah) who did his best to modernize the country, and he made incredible progress. At that time, people were not religious; in fact, mullahs were looked down on much as priests are looked down on today - moreso really - they were seen not just as boy-molesters, but as backwarded idiots. They, of course, had no power at that time, so all they could do was sit in their seminaries and stew in their hatred. In those days, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Baha'is - all got along - religion was nothing. Women didn't have to dress like black ghosts, they had rights, everyone was getting educated, the idea was to embrace math, science, technology, French, German and English and catch up with the West so everyone could have a better life and feel proud of their country.

Then, all that changed when the US and UK engineered the downfall of the Shah and put the mullahs in power. I grew up a regular American kid, nominally Christian (mainstream, not evangelical or any non-sense, but I rejected even mainstream religion in high school thanks to my secular-minded public school teachers). I never knew or cared much about Iran or Islam until 9/11. I mean, after 1979, my father was so disgusted with what was happening there, he just told me to forget about that stupid country and that I was American and that's it. I totally understand his thinking. He was proud to be an American. He wasn't ashamed of being Persian, but was horrified and disgusted by how those medieval clerics destroyed the country and undid almost all of the progress that had been made. At this point, it's just embarrassing to be associated with that country. Normally, I don't tell anyone I'm part Persian.

It was only after 9/11 that I really took an interest and started doing my own research on Islam. And just like when I read the Bible in high school, I didn't like what I learned at all. In my opinion, Islam is even worse than Christinsanity. A lot worse. I heard a lot of horrible things that went on (and still go on) in Iran that the Western media never report on. I heard these things from friends and relatives of my father who still went back to the country now and then, so I guess they knew what they were talking about. Really horrible stuff. And it all comes from the learned clergy, the Koran and the hadiths. It is not corruption or distortion of the religion - it is the religion.

So I guess I'm biased. I feel like I know more about Islam than the vast majority of Westerners, especially leftists, who for some reason sympathize with Islamists even though Islam is against everything liberals stand for (and I consider myself liberal - just not the anti-American, pro-communist, pro-Islamist kind). The thing is, Islamists don't love leftists. For example, the Iranian revolt in 1979 was conprised of two groups - mullahs and leftists, both of which hated the Shah for their own reasons. Guess what happened after the mullahs took over? They massacred the leftists. Just rounded them up, tortured them, shot them, hung them, after cursory kangaroo court "trials". Why? Because they don't believe in god, of course. And they believe in women's rights. Education for girls. Modernization. All the things Islam is against. So just call me biased. I can't help it. It just pisses me off that I have to be ashamed of my ethnic heritage. Everyone else can have pride in their heritage. But not Persians. We're ashamed.

What do the dash-lines mean? I can't see how many people have viewed this post, or how many have replied...

Sorry to hear about your son and previous marriage. I suspect your ex is suffering just as much over the loss of your son.

Hope things go much better for you from now on. Cherish your wife.

Is multi-culturism good for a country and can it actually work?

Yes it can & it does.

All people have to have is a more "open mind". But in "indoctrinated" countries, it may take a little more time.

I also agree with the first part, but the second part must be modified to: But in "indoctrinated" countries (or with indoctrinated immigrants), it may take a little more time, or a lot more time, or may be impossible.

People are censored and murdered because of hate speech.

Speaking out against Islamist hate and violence is not "hate speech". That's like saying speaking out against neo-Nazism is hate speech.

If we take the most recent major conflict between Jews and Muslims, the January attack on Gaza, we all know the Israeli justifications, but if you look at the balance of casualties in the attack, one might think that the global Islamists have a some sort of argument to be carrying out what in another theatre of war with different combatants might be called guerilla warfare.

According to this logic, the Allies were in the wrong in WWII because the Axis powers suffered disproportionate casualties.

Israel and the West are a victim of Islamist terrorism, no doubt. Islam and Muslims are victims of Western and Israeli attacks. Tit for tat. Going back generations.

That's fine as far as it goes, but you're making a moral equivalence between secular liberal-democratic Western societies and Islamist Taliban societies. Are you sure you want to do that? Would you say the same thing in regards to WWII? Both sides attacked each other, therefor "tit for tat"?

God I love this show. Been watching some re-runs lately. It occured to me that this show is probably a favorite of other Thai Visa members. You gotta love this show, right? I mean what a babe! Great body, always smiling... so sweet-natured... always wanting to please her guy... kinda like Thai girls, no? Not exactly, no, of course not. But might there be something here?

Something else just occured to me. Thai culture, like Middle Eastern cultures around the time of Western colonialism, had a tradition of harems and dancing girls... something I don't think ever existed in the West, with it's tradition of puritanical Christian monogamy. (Blech!)

Something else occured to me... not even 35 years ago we Westerners still perceived the Middle East as a pretty benign, exotic, even sexy or romantic place (thus a show like I Dream of Jeannie). How things change. How terribly sad. Some of those countries were really making progress between the 1920's and 1970's. But for more than 30 years now those countries have been going in reverse, and at an increasingly rapid pace. Just really sad.

I hope nothing like that ever happens to Thailand. Cambodia used to be like Thailand... then the war, the Khmer Rouge, the Vietnamese and their puppet changed all that. Long live the King and the gentle, fun-loving traditional Thai culture!

Yeah, so I heard. Do you buy that? Please explain it to me. Was Fortuyn anti- animal rights or something? Was he agitating for more abuse of animals? I've never heard anything about Fortuyn that would explain why an "animal rights activist" would murder him.

come on man. they caught the guy who killed him.

he's in jail right now and i've never heard anthing about him growing a beard and getting on his knees 5 times a day to pray to mekka.

there is absolutely no proof muslims have anything to do with it.

the guy is just a moron, he killed a hi profile guy to get his 15 minutes of fame.. crazy people do crazy things.

especially animal rights activists.

I didn't say Muslims had anything to do with his death. I don't know. You're right - I was thinking the Dutch government did it, because I had read about how worried they were about his wild popularity with the Dutch voters. All I said was that I don't buy that he was killed by an animal rights activist and that's the end of the story. It doesn't make sense. Even crazy people have their own reasons, which kinda-sorta make sense. I've never heard any explanation whatsoever why an animal rights activist would kill Pim Fortuyn. (If you've heard some reason, please tell me.) So unless Fortuyn was some kind of animal-hater, there has to be more to the story. Maybe the animal-rights activist did kill him, but in that case someone must've put him up to it, and probably set him up to get caught. I mean really - why do you buy that story at face value? Help me out here. "People do crazy things"? That's it? That's enough for you to accept this?

You mean Hitler? Geert Wilders is like Hitler? How so?

read what he wants but substitute the word muslim with jew.

then you'll get the picture

Geert Wilders wants to kill all the Muslims? I don't think so. (And if he did, I wouldn't support him.)

In any case, it's not a good comparison. All the Jews ever did was take care of themselves and each other. (And yeah, after 2,000 years of persecution and massacres and being run out of one country after another, some of them want to live in peace in their own little tiny country of Israel - really not too much to ask, I think, especially when Arabs have 21 mostly huge, oil-rich countries of their own.) Anti-semites hate Jews primarily out of jealousy because they're successful. There's nothing in the Jewish religion about imposing their religion or values on anyone else, much less "killing infidels" or waging "jihad", etc.

I'm not saying Muslims should be persecuted or discriminated against. All I'm saying is that Islam is a very dangerous, inhuman worldview that is causing a lot of suffering all over the world (not least for Muslims themselves), and people have a right to point that out without being censored or murdered.

A source at the Transport Ministry said other passengers had complained of similar incidents.

Chairat Sa-nguansue, director-general of the Land Transport Department, said he would look into the matter.

In some of the cases, complaints had turned out to be a hoax intended to destroy the reputations of taxi drivers, Mr Chairat said.

Yeah, I'm sure that's what happened here, Mr. Chairat! What a joke.

A comment below the newspaper article:

Last month at noon my daughter (aged 22)faced similar problem while catching a pink taxi from Moo Baan Nantawan to Onuch BTS station. Along the journey she saw the taxi man always moving the console of the aircondition and she felt having given anaesthetic and feeling giddy. At Onuch 52, she immediately asked the taxi man to stop and throw the money without asking back for the change and ran out of the taxi. She called me and my wife. We took her to Sukhumvit Hospital for check up. The doctor mentioned that the drug will go off by itself and give her some medication.

Back to Moo Baan Nantawan we checked with the security guard and got hold of the taxi driver's name and taxi plate number. I wanted to call the police but was stopped by my daughter who did not want to have additional problem as there was no concrete proof.

I hope the authority would look into this matter and give valuable suggestions for female passengers to safe guard them from any mishap.

The doctor mentioned that the drug will go off by itself and give her some medication.

So there seems to be a pattern here. Maybe it's not just "female hysteria"? Isn't it at least possible that something fishy is going on? I mean it's not like Thailand is famous for honest taxi drivers... is it?

Might I ask what you think about this situation, Churchill Sir?

dude.. fortuyn was killed by a white animal rights activist.

had nothing to do with islam.

Yeah, so I heard. Do you buy that? Please explain it to me. Was Fortuyn anti- animal rights or something? Was he agitating for more abuse of animals? I've never heard anything about Fortuyn that would explain why an "animal rights activist" would murder him.

What I do know about Fortuyn was that he was spoke out against the rising tide of Islamist hate-speech and violence. And his popularity with the Dutch people was skyrocketing. He was on the verge of doing very well in an election. The Dutch establishment was alarmed. And then he was shot down. If I'm missing some critical information here, I'd like to hear it.

geert wilders is a <deleted>.

the west already had someone like him.

that guy killed himself in '45.

You mean Hitler? Geert Wilders is like Hitler? How so? Hitler was a big admirer of Islam - a "great warrior religion" and the enemy of Hitler's enemies - the Jews, Brits, Americans and Commies. He even plotted with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (a Muslim leader at that time) and incorporated a Muslim division into his Waffen SS.

So maybe you better re-think that one.

The Netherlands, shows in the top 5 of Multicultural open ( easy accesable ) countries.

Yes, but that famous Dutch tolerance wasn't enough to prevent the vicious murders of Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh and repeated death-threats against Aayan Hirsi Ali, all real heroes for risking death to exercise their free speech and warn others of the danger they saw. What happened to them should dispel any doubts that they were right.

Those people had nothing against immigrants. It's all part of the freedom of speech here. You CAN be killed. That's the danger you have to except, when saying things like that in NL. Anti-Islam, Mr. Geert Wilders, PVV now has also continues body guards with him.

In general there where not much radical anti-foreigner parties here in the past, so it always kept calm.

I know those people had nothing against immigrants per se. And I know that the Netherlands hasn't had much anti-foreigner sentiment, so obviously the problem isn't coming from the native Dutch people. What these heroes were warning about is the danger of "radical Islam" (or just Islam), and for that they were murdered, thus proving their point.

In other words, by letting so many of these uneducated, illiberal fanatics into their country, Dutch people now have to live in fear and be careful of what they say in their own country. It's no wonder so many Dutch are leaving the Netherlands. It's an intolerable situation.

Instead of caving in to these savages, the Dutch government should've gone on the offensive to make clear that Dutch people will not be terrorized into censoring their speech, and have every right to criticize Islam, Mohammad, and whatever else they feel like criticizing without fear, and if Muslims don't like that, they've come to the wrong country and are more than welcome to leave.

Mr. Geert Wilders is a hero; the West needs more people like him.

For the same reason that Brazilians rarely spoke up against the IRA. The actions of the terrorists have nothing to do with them.

Poor analogy. Does the IRA claim to be fighting the cause of Brazilians? It is an anti-British, Irish-nationalist terror group. Of course it has nothing to do with Brazilians.

The analogy is not poor. Brazil is an overwhelmingly Catholic country so, following your line of reasoning, Brazilians ought to condemn the actions of the largely Catholic IRA but the actions of the IRA have nothing to do with your average Brazilian in the same way that the actions of Al Qaeda have nothing to do with your average UK Muslim.

I see what you're trying to say. Well, I'm a non-Irish American, so maybe there's something I'm missing about the IRA, but I thought it was more ethnic/nationalist and even leftist rather than Catholic (they had close ties to the PLO, another leftist terrorist group). Of course I know there is a Catholic/Protestant angle to the conflict, but I still think it's very different situation. Why? Well, as far as I know, Catholicism doesn't have any counterpart to Islamic concept of "jihad". Holy war, you say? The Crusades? Yeah, that was a long time ago and it was actually a belated reaction to centuries of Islamic conquest of Christian lands - the Middle East, Egypt, North Africa were all Christian before being conquered and Islamized by Muslims. Finally Christians fought back. I know - you've never heard this before, but it's true. But I don't think any Christian sect, including Catholicism, has a formal doctrine of holy war where they are supposed to fight against non-Christians to conquer territory and forcibly convert or kill non-Christians.

Has the IRA ever said that it's fighting a Catholic holy war? I don't think so. Anyway, that is the only "Catholic" terrorist group I know of, so that makes it a poor analogy compared to what's going on with Islam all over the world (see list of conflicts in my previous post). Those conflicts are called jihads by the Muslims fighting them. Muslims connected to Al Qaeda did commit terror attacks in London, so it does very much pertain to the average UK Muslim.