ianguygil

Oh, John, did I hurt your feelings Funny that one who lords it over the forum and always has to have the last cynical word has such thin skin.

I will file your comments in my "abberant loner" folder and will try to provide constructive answers to the questions and requests of other customers while on this forum.

I gave up trying to do that with you a long time ago........

The Thai banks seemed to manage to collude on a variety of other things quite well, including the implementation of the 150 baht fee for foreign ATM card use. I was merely pointing out, it's too bad they couldn't collude equally well on a debit card security standard.

BKK Bank deserves credit for making the investment in a debit card security alternative. It just happens to be one that has disadvantages as long as it's a solo operation, incompatible with every other Thai bank. One might imagine that settling these kinds of issues in sensible, customer friendly way MIGHT have been the kind of thing the Thai Bankers Assn. was intended for...

As for the U.S., I don't believe the major banks there issue debit cards that are incapable of being used at other major U.S. banks.. so you've certainly got an edge on them there...

If my comments reflect any criticism, it's aimed at the collective Thai banking system for perpetuating an unsecure debit card system combined with banking regulations that provide no meaningful consumer protection against responsibility for fraudulent charges. Along with the seeming inability of that same banking system to come to a customer friendly solution that works across the entire banking system, not just BKKB.

As I said, this type of question, not this specific question. The point being that average bank staff are not going to be aware of the unpublished strategies of their competitors. The job of the front line bank staff is to serve the customer needs with the Bank's products, not to speculate about competitors.

I realize you are somebody who has not actually every "done" anything, just spent your life commenting on what others do. Kind of like a professional mother-in-law. But if you were in the situation where you wanted to offer your customers something which will provide them with better security, but your completitors were not ready to take that step, what would you do? Just talking is not sufficient. We made the choice, we offer the product. There is some disadvantage that you can not use the ATMS of other banks at this point. But at least you have the choice.

Enjoy taking risks on getting skimmed, and on "commenting" your life away rather than actually doing something..

The chipped Be1st Smart Card is a nice feature for BKK Bank to offer. Unfortunately, the inability to use that card with ANY other Thai bank's ATMs is a bit of disadvantage.

It's really unfortunately that, given how the Thai banks cooperate and coordinate about so many things, that they couldn't manage to get together and adopt a cohesive unified standard for debit card security.

The fact that the Be1st Smart card can't be used at any other Thai bank ATMs besides those of BKKB, and the fact that at least for now, it also can't be used at ATMs in the U.S., is what's prevented me from getting one in favor of the traditional non-chipped Be1st card, which can be used at other Thai banks' ATMs and at ATMs in the States.

I'd really prefer to have and use the chipped version, if all else was equal.

I asked some BKKB branch staff recently if anything was on the horizon that might lead do changes that would allow for the use of the card in other Thai banks' ATMs... And I got the usual kind of "we don't have a clue" kind of answer.

Tallguy (John)

EMV is the international standard. So at some point for ATM cards which can be used abroad all the Thai banks will need to go with EMV. But local cards will not unless the local regulators require it.

There is a huge capital expenditure to upgrade thousands of ATMs at each of the 4 largest banks, so why would you think that we could push our competitors to do this? We have done it to protect our customers and to protect ourselves against foreign fraudsters.

I would say that expecting line staff in branches to know about the strategies of our competitors is not at all reasonable. If there was a hard date at which all the banks had to upgrade to be compatible that would be different. But acting as if they are somehow "clueless" just shows your usual negative and critical approach to almost all things Thai/ Good luck with asking that kind of question in a BofA or CHASE branch back in your home town of LA.

Makes me wonder why you live here if everything is so poor here and so perfect for you back in the US......

The appearance of the card gets little scrutiny anywhere in the world. Some banks allow you to send a personal photo which is used for the whole background of the card. So while their logos may show, you and your dog are what is prominently on show (should you choose to send that photo).

One advantage that Thailand has is that we have adopted the EMV (Chip) standard for Credit Cards. So it is pretty much impossible to clone the card as the details are held in the Chip. Although a classic step is to disable the chip and to fake the mag stripe, and some unknowing merchants accept the strip details. But overall Credit Card "skimming" is pretty much unknown in Thailand.

Debit cards are another matter. We are as far as I know the only Thai bank to offere Debit Cards which are EMV compliant (we were some time ago and this may have changed, I am not sure as I only use BBL cards). The majority of our ATMs are able to accept these cards, as are ATM machines in most locations overseas. However, the other Thai bank ATM machines cannot, so if you get one, at least for now, you are tied to our ATM locations (about 8,000 of which are in Thailand).

In the US they have refused to accept EMV but they are being pushed into it. They have such fantastic processing speeds and huge AI engines in the background, that they are able to detect most fraud. Their losses are just a few basis points. But despite this they will be pushed to accept EMV for interoperability. As it is many US credit card holders are denied in Europe as they have no chip. Many US banks offer EMV compliant cards for those who travel a lot. This is a pretty hit and miss situation at the moment in the US but I am sure it will come to clarity in the next year or so.

Good, informative post by Pib

One other item to consider is that the number on your card has what is called a "BIN" number. This is the most significant (left hand) of the 16 digit credit card number. If that is a range reserved for Visa your card is a Visa card, and so on. It may be a debit card or a credit card, but if it uses one of the ranges reserved for an international network it is one of their cards, by definition.

Please see the following for the list of reserved BIN numbers. We all use a DB which is a bit more up to date probably

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Issuer_Identification_Numbers

Tallguy

Much as my better judgement tells me not to waste my time in responding to close minded posters, here I go.

Firstly, this whole thread is nothing about foreign currency fees. It is about where DINERS and DISCOVER, both credit cards, can be used in Thailand, primarily at ATMs

Secondly, DISCOVER, as a credit card issued in the USA and expanding overseas (bot not in Thailand), has very high customer satisfaction. In fact they have won the #1 in Customer Loyalty for 17 years in a row. They were the first to offer a cash back program, and this program can offer up to 5% on key merchants.

Thirdly, they have no foreign currency fee for use as a credit card in overseas locations

https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/index.html?ICMPGN=HDR_ALLPS_CC_IT

http://www.discoverfinancial.com/newsroom/awards.html

You will see on the same page their many other awards, including some relating to identity safety, customer service, being a great place to work and community contributions

You mention that I may choose to pay a FCF, but I do not. I live in Thailand so I use a local ATM card, which is free.

You can keep raising your single point in every thread about US ATM cards with no FCF if that makes you happy, but other people may want to understand why cards like DINERS and DISCOVER are now linked, why they may see the logos for both on some ATMs (including ours) and to understand why this may be a good choice for them when they are back home in the USA.

My participation here is not to preach to the unreceptive. We have no business interest in DINERS or DISCOVER (DINERS franchise in Thailand is owned by CitiBank, DISCOVER is not issued here). But this thread started out asking for information and I am just trying to help to explain the what and the why, even though I was late due to traveling last week in the US.

tallguy

While I understand that you have unlimited time to answer on this forum, there was not one thing I posted which compared DISCOVER to any of the free VISA cards. What I stated were facts and I hope, at least for some, will be of interest as they start to see this 3rd network growing internationally.

While your bank may not charge you - yet - the fact is that millions upon millions of what were domestic ATM cards in those countries I listed can now be used abroad with a far lower network access fee than MC or VISA

As in the past, facts never interest you and you have your needle stuck in the "fee free ATM card groove" which is almost definitely a temporary phenomena. Seems you are not interested at all in why things happen.........just in posting more than anybody else.

It's a Diners Club card. But, as I said already, this wasn't a good choice for Thailand.

The OP finally admits that it is a Diners Club card, not a Discover card, why are we beating this dead horse

Without going too far on this, one of my best friends is the President of DISCOVER. When they got a huge settlement (billions of USD shared with AMEX) from MC and VISA they took some of that an purchased DINERS International, the franchise holder for DINERS CLUB. DINERS had an International aquiring network, so they integrated this with DISCOVER so that anywhere that accepts DINERS also accepts DISCOVER.

DISCOVER has a huge acceptance network in the USA (millions of merchants) and it owns the PULSE ATM network. So suddenly DINERS had a lot more reach too.

They are now progressively partnering with regional payment networks in Korea, India, China etc to allow their local ATM card holders to use their cards when they travel outside their home country. Before to do this they had to be MC or VISA cards, now they have a 3rd party and much lower cost alternative and it is really disrupting the market.

DISCOVER has also partnered with PAYPAL so that you can use your PAYPAL account at any DISCOVER merchant in the USA

So while very different products, DISCOVER and DINERS are actually quite interchangable in some aspects. And you should expect their acceptance to continue to grow globally.

Yankophiles you guys know so little about the US.....

Now a good SOUTHERN restaurant is what we need in LOS, biscuits and gravy, chicken fried steak, fried okra...

Well, as I said I am American, while having lived in many other places. I prefer to use slang understood by the masses. But I can call it Bubba Land if you want me to

I thought Bourbon Street had all that heart stopping fat stuff, fatback bacon and lard lard and lard........... Personally that stuff is not quite my cup of tea...oops, I mean not my thing, sorry.

Stopped in here the weekend before last with my wife and son. Not too far from where I live so we walked. Almost nobody there except a couple of older farang with Thai partners. I would say 3 tables occupied in total. So my first advice would be to try this sooner rather than later as the business case looks tenuous.

Food was ok. I definitely know better places, but they made a good stab at it. My wife had an omelette. My son had a ham and cheese sandwich. I had eggs. All ok but not so great. I can see that for real yankophiles that this may be manna from heaven, but for me the food was a bit tasteless. The fries were good. The cheese is that Amercan waxy stuff with no real taste (I am American, but have lived all over, so American cheese horrifies me).

There are probably some things you can only get from here, so for those missing home, it is probably a must visit. I far prefer Coffee Alley right next to the Citadines on Soi 16 (I drive there). Or the German Beer House on Soi 11.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, great music. They had James Brown on the whole time I was there. His older stuff.

I went to CitiBank where the card should work. Explaining to them I want to charge my card and get cash back, not a cash advance, took about a half hour. She didn't know what "charge" meant so I tried many variations of saying the same thing. I had to get my English speaking Thai friend on the phone to explain it to them and they understood what I wanted. Next they said they've never seen a Discover card and don't know if it will work. Then they were saying how I'll have a daily limit on how much I can take out. I had to explain again it's not a cash advance, it's just a credit card transaction. The only limit is how much credit I have. Then she was fiddling with the card behind the counter and she said it won't work because the Diners Club logo is not on the front of the card, it's on the back. I asked her if she tried to use the card and she said yes. I was still skeptical. I called Discover and they said it should definitely work at CitiBank, but they had no idea why it wouldn't. So I called Diners Club Thailand and handed the phone over. They talked for a while and said it should work, then they said I can get a cash advance at a Bangkok Bank ATM. I told them Discover told me many times cash advances are blocked in Thailand, and I tried already at a Krungsri Bank ATM. It was obvious there wasn't anything they could do, so I gave up. Said thank you and left. On the way out of the mall I saw a Bangkok Bank. I figured what the hell and gave it a try. It gave me a $500 cash advance! I called up Discover and the lady was shocked I got a cash advance in Thailand. I told her about the Diners Club situation and she told me Discover OWNS Diners Club. They bought it so their card will work at more locations internationally. Obviously that deal isn't working out so well.

Anyways, I got money. I was also surprised how many stores in CentralWorld had Diners Club logos. If Discover can get this mess figured out this card wouldn't be bad at all.

I am sorry that I did not see this earlier. I am traveling internationally again..

Yes, our ATMs accept DINERS and DISCOVER. And yes, DISCOVER bought DINERS International a few years ago.

You should be able to look us up for acceptance on the DISCOVER site

I'm glad it worked out for you in the end

The best resort in HH is Chiva Som. If cost is no object and you are focused on health you really can't go wrong there. Prices can easily exceed $1,000 USD per night. There are about 9-10 staff for every guest. But you asked for the best, and that is exactly what they provide

Thanks for the input guys!

My Bank in US is Bank of America, I don't think they have to use intermediary bank to wire transfers.

Correct, BofA is one of our Correspondents, so you should get your funds same day. In fact BofA is where they hired me from :-)

I do an annual transfer from Bangkok Bank to my US bank and it takes 5-7 business days.

A transfer from BBL to a money center bank in the US can be achieved in the same day. I often send funds from BBL to SCHWAB (account is actually at PNC) and it is in the US account soon after the business day opens in the USA.

5-7 days means that an intermediary bank is involved which explains the delays.

If you are looking at the high end malls it is quite expensive. One of my best friends has about 130 sq m in Gaysorn and pays about 650K per month, but it is a prime location in the mall. That is all on a 3 year lease.

Sent you a PM

As a closing comment on my need for help.

The Bangkok Bank Organization and it's willingness to help during these difficult times for me was outstanding. Never be afraid to ask for help.

Thanks again one and all but especially to the wonderful people at the Bangkok Bank.

Dear Buckaroo

It is our pleasure to be of service. Thank you for your kind words of thanks, you have a lot on your plate but you still took the time to do that. You are a gentleman.

I had stopped involvement in this forum (I do this unofficially and in my spare time) but your case was exceptional. Any others who face daunting problems are welcome to contact me via PM, but I will not be posting extensively on this forum.

Thanks again for taking the time to say something nice. Our very best wishes to you and your family.

Ian

Sent you a PM

No problem, Ian.. I'll let you get back to your translating work... I know it's a tough job... going from Thai to English. If you or Dave need some help, I can ask my housekeeper to pitch in for you... I'm sure she'd be happy to assist.

Meanwhile, I wouldn't want to waste another opportunity to remind folks here that Thai banks typically have a policy that holds their bank card holders responsible for all fraudulent charges up to their credit limit for credit cards or account balance for deposit accounts prior to whatever time they notify the bank in the event their card is lost or stolen -- even if they don't realize the loss or theft right away.

Based on experiences like the one reported by the ThaiVisa member in the thread linked above, BKK Bank appears to have the same kind of policy... But unlike many other banks, BKK Bank doesn't even have the courtesy to post their policy on their website so their customers can be informed of it.

And it's now been about two months since the bank's reps here promised to provide such a cardholder liability policy, and none has been forthcoming -- in English or in Thai.

<snip>

While I understand that you live your life in broadcast mode - why listen when talking will do seems to be your personal creed - as I have made it clear my presence on this forum is as an individual, it is on my own time and it is a personal activity. I am in no way on this forum the Bank's representative. And whenever I do represent the Bank I always insist that members swap to official channels to deal with me.

While you may spend all day on this thread and various other threads and forums as you have nothing else to do in your small and sad little world, I have a job, family and interests. I get online here to try to help people

So please rant on, and you will be ignored. And please post your ill informed statistics from CNBC, no need for you to actually read the report, is there John. As I said, facts are not important, it is volume that matters to you.

In the interim, any other members of this forum are always welcome to PM me and I will see what I can do to help or to advise them. They do not need to be our customers.

BTW, seems your housekeeper is a lot smarter than you. After all these years here you mean you still can not read Thai. Shame on you...

Enjoy!!

As for the item you raised, I am sure Dave will post it once the Thai one is translated.

OK Ian... thanks for that comment. I guess BKK Bank is pretty slow at translating Thai into English, especially considering, according to Dave, it was an already existing policy on cardholder liability... Although there's certainly never been any evidence shown here that BKK Bank really had such a written policy in any language...

But now that you mention it, I'd be happy to see or take a Thai version of the policy, which of course you and Dave have also never posted or offered to provide.... I wonder why???

Meanwhile, I don't have any need to comment further on the CNBC post... It was their information and their article. You're free not to like or agree with it... But I note, you didn't bother to take the time here to post any specific information or country comparisons to the contrary.

<snip>

Classic from a man who has spent his life commenting on what other people do, journalist (ahem..), public relations. Rather than actually doing something yourself.

You quote CNBC, you make your own summary (incorrect) statements of their findings, and have no idea what the data really means because you prefer to watch a slideshow that actually read the report.

No more time to waste on people like you today. I'd rather spend my time more productively.

Nice of you to pop in again, Ian...

It reminds me that you and Dave of BKK Bank have never followed through with the commitment made in the other ThaiVisa thread for BKK Bank to publicly post or disclose the bank's policy on cardholder liability for lost or stolen credit cards.

It's now been almost two months since the last post in that thread... and we've heard nothing further from BKK Bank on the issue of its cardholder liability policy... Perhaps you'd care to post some update on that subject while you're in the neighborhood.

Bangkok Bank Will Not Payback Fraudulent Pos Transactions W/Stolen Atm Card

38,940 Baht 6 Point of Sale Transactions B4 Card Cxld & Police Rep

http://www.thaivisa....tolen-atm-card/

<snip>

Ahhh, a classic tactic of a Hack (oops, ex-Hack, or retired-Hack, which one do you prefer to go by?) to ignore the issues raised and to divert attention off onto another issue. The whole point of your misleading and ill informed posts seems to not be something you want to discuss.

As for the item you raised, I am sure Dave will post it once the Thai one is translated.

In the interim, if you personally need any assistance or clarifications I have already given you the contact numbers to call.

I am still active on the forum, I just ignore your whining(posts) most of the time

Came across a very interesting CNBC article today on who actually holds the U.S.'s nearly $16 trillion national debit...or to be more precise, who are the largest holders of that debt... And it's not who you might think, generally speaking.... By and large, it's Americans, including various parts of our own government, who hold most of that debit, according to the article... Interesting reading...

http://finance.yahoo...gov-t-debt.html

And on the same subject, CNBC also has a slideshow on the world's largest debtor nations, ranked by total debt compared to gross domestic product. The U.S. ranked 20th on the list, with its national debit about equal to its GDP...

But countries on the list with larger debt ratios included Australia, Germany, Hong Kong, France, Norway, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium #5, Netherlands #4, Switzerland #3, the UK #2, and Ireland #1.

The UK has a total national debt more than 4 times its GDP, and debt equaling almost $147,000 per capita... whereas the U.S. has total debit just slightly larger than GDP (101%) and per capita debt of a bit over $48,000.

http://www.cnbc.com/...0308959?slide=1

These are totally misleading numbers which include the banking sectors for countries which host the headquarters of major international banks or are in themselves offshore banking centers. Do you really believe that Switzerland is in so much worse relative financial shape than the US?

While some poorly run banks have caused their governments and polulations headaches over the past few years, particularly in Ireland, the UK and Iceland, these numbers are misleading and do not illustrate the relative health of the various economies.

I won't get futher into it and recommend that Forum members read the actual reports not the CNBC comicbook summaries. They should state the context for these numbers and not just put it into a pretty picture slideshow for entertainment rather than information.

To the OP

Sorry to hear you have had this problem with one of our 8,000+ ATMs. Please go to your local Bangkok Bank branch, or call 1333, or PM either me or Daveroc.

As I said, we have many thousands of such devices, which are a combination of a PC and an attached physical device for handling the customer interaction (keys, cards etc.), dispensing cash and printing receipts. As with any physical/mechanical device some are bound to break occasionally. You can rest assured that if this happened exactly as you said in your post and the machine did not dispense the cash but debited the account that we will take care of it. As many posters have mentioned any reputable bank will do this.

Any speculation about this being a "scheme" to earn extra cash is just stupid. Our most important asset is the trust of our customers.

Some of the other items which need to be corrected are the amount of data we have and the level of control we have over these machines. We do literally millions of transactions a day on our ATMs for millions of customers. If a machine runs out of cash it knows it and it becomes "unavailable". We try to get to machines running low on cash before they run out, and that in itself is a huge logistical operation with ATMs spread all over the country as we have.

So please just report this through the standard channels and let us take if from there. We will need an official report so we can make sure we are dealing with the person who really have the problem being mentioned. So my advice would be to PM Daveroc (or me but I am busy) or just go into the nearest branch. Thank you

Ian