Sabre

Actually the beauty of statistics is that you can compare Swaziland to Thailand. That's the point.

It goes like this:

Thailand = 19.6 deaths / 100,000 people / year.

Swaziland = 26.3 deaths / 100,.000 people / year.

Thailand 19.6 / Swaziland 26.3

And yes, we could throw in the U.S.A. too and compare all three ...

Statistics. Helping us to compare.

Yes the annual road toll is horrific, but if you check the figures Thailand is pretty much equal to the world average. There are lots of countries that have a higher per capita toll.

NAME THEM !!!

sorry Sabre but thats bull..t, even in Cambodia, Mexico City, Domenican Republic and Egypt (Cairo) I NEVER saw any accident with death or basket cases.

I love Thailand too, I just hate the behaviour of its ppl, specially when it comes to courtesy on the road.

Yes, but your observations are anecdotes and not really useful for gathering hard data. We need to look at the numbers.

Thailand has 19.6 road fatalities per 100,000 people per year. Many countries exceed this figure - Malaysia = 24.1, Mexico = 20.7, Myanmar = 23.4, Phillipines = 20.0, Afghanistan = 39, Eritrea = 48.4, Iran = 35.8, Jordan = 34.2, Libya = 40.5 plus just about every country in Africa.

There are many more countries that have a worse rate than Thailand. The world average is 20.8, so Thailand is better than average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

There is a lot of exaggeration in this thread.

Yes, Thai drivers have a lot of room for improvement. But they are leagues ahead of some other nationalities/countries I can think of.

Yes the annual road toll is horrific, but if you check the figures Thailand is pretty much equal to the world average. There are lots of countries that have a higher per capita toll.

Most people posting here simply do not know the circumstances of the accident (myself included). Anyone who has been in an accident knows that there are a thousand tiny details that can play a part, and will change the overall picture.

In courts of law, judges, lawyers, doctors, and other experts often spend weeks in trials trying to determine where the blame lies for a particular road accident. It is complicated. Witnesses are fallible. It's rarely black and white.

Perhaps it's worth mulling these points over before making snap judgements.

Sorry. Triple posting.

Sorry. Triple Posting.

Just amazing they've got so much rebuilt/reopen already. In a western country the company would still be trying to get a construction/rebuild permit, tied up in court over claims/insurance, etc.

That might have something to do with who the (ultimate) owners are ...

Sabre you've hit the nail on the head

The ultimate owners own the land. They continue to be paid the rent. They don't really care what is built on it or that whoever rents it makes money from it.

Your comment is rather strange.... The owners own the land and all that is built on it. Of course they care whether there is a 5-star shopping mall on their land as opposed to a burnt out wreck. If you were the owner, what would you prefer?

Please don't forget to include the idiot red and gray vans speeding around carrying the school kids. They drive extremely fast without regard to traffic conditions or traffic congestion. Flash flash get out of my way, I'm more important than everyone else on the road. They pass on curves, up hills, and through changing lights. In the early morning to save electricitiy they drive with their lights off so you can't see them coming in the fast lane. They then whip in front of you practically before they are a car length ahead. Is it no wonder so many die.

To save electricity?

WOW , does anyone look surprise about this accident ??????????? Not me ..those truck drivers , mini van drivers , bus drivers are totally nuts behind their wheels , how many accident have been reported already here involving truck or buses ? Does anything changed in Thailand ? of course not ..... and those are such coward that they flee the accident scene to avoid too many question , that is outrageous but unfortunately happen every day..even more in Bangkok , how many of us have seen drivers who cross at red lights ? I see about 2 or 3 per days sometime more.

Let me remind you 15,000 people died in traffic accident every year and more than one million injured. Amazing Thailand indeed

It is is not just these guys, it is about 99% of Thai drivers - talk about Jekyll and Hide!!! Put a Thai behind the wheel of a car and they lose all manners, lose all sensibility and have no concept of how to control a vehicle. Any idiot can go fast by putting the foot down but Thai drivers (taxis included) are road users NOT drivers. No-one here has ever been taught to 'drive'. The Police do nothing to control the stupidity, lane drifts, failure to keep left, overtaking on the left, push, shove, using an indicator and thinking that gives you right of way and so on. And frankly it has been out of control for so long now I doubt it is reversible.

I would also make the point in favour of the driver - although clearly - running a red light - if that is a fact, he is still responsible. I have driven road trains (68 tonnes) and rigs down as low as 14 tonnes and when a red light suddenly looms (look at his load), even at low speeds with a greasy wet road as in this instance, he may well have hit the brakes but would have pushed himself into a jack-knife and may have just touched them, realised he could not stop and had no alternative. 22 wheels means his load would have been around 20 tonnes and his cab and engine would only have been 8 at maximum. Thus 20 tonnes pushing 8 - that is how the jack-knife can occur.

On the incoming traffic - just look - bikes jump lights everywhere thinking - stupidly - they can call it "right of way" and be the devil may care attitude is what gets them killed. In this instance you have a huge mass moving and the kids still pulled out without due care or perhaps even looking - it takes two to have an accident. And read the report again - there was 3 on the bike!

So in this case - yes the driver ran away - most likely - the kids were injured and killed, and the police are investigating. But it all comes back to education. The roads are dangerous even for skilled drivers and Thai's 'track' record for road safety is almost non existent. It starts at the top. I'll get off my soap box now.

There were two motorcycles, so not 3 on the bike.

Just amazing they've got so much rebuilt/reopen already. In a western country the company would still be trying to get a construction/rebuild permit, tied up in court over claims/insurance, etc.

That might have something to do with who the (ultimate) owners are ...

16.5 years.

Is that what he got in the end? They must have convicted him on the drugs charge for that sentence, disbelieving the "plant" defence. Had it just been a gun he'd probably be on his way home by now courtesy of an extra-judicial backander.

My understanding is that he got 17 years and a fine of 800,000 Baht, and the sentence was reduced by six months because he admitted guilt on the gun charge.

I also understand Johansen intends to appeal, however it will be another 2 years at least before this is heard.

I think all he can hope for now is a transfer to Norway (apparently he will be eligible after 7 years) or a King's pardon. I don't think many people could survive 16.5 years in a Thai prison.

I feel sorry for him. If I were in his situation I would be psychologically crushed right now.

You'd be surprised.

Thai jail ain't that bad if you have money, I know people who have served time here, I have visited them, and if they had money and goods to barter, their life was good compared to the Local Thai prison population.

I knew a guy that was in Chonburi prison and for a price he stayed in the medical unit in his own bed at night, cost him 4000 baht per month.

Years ago there was a Farang from Pattaya in Chonburi prison who would be taken out by prison guards to Pattaya to the bars and clubs, everything is or certainly was available for a price.

Japanese prisons are far worse than Thai prisons.

Thanks, you make some excellent points. I remember a few years ago a story in the Bangkok post about a Thai businessman who was serving a lengthy sentence and yet was regularly spotted outside of jail going about a normal life apparently.

I suppose his Norwegian disability pension will help out too ... that's at least THB20,000 per month ...

Also, the Norwegians tend to look after their own I think ... so I doubt he will be forgotten or left to rot in jail.

Presumably with enough money one could shave a few years off one's sentence ... not sure if they have parole in Thailand ... ?

16.5 years.

Is that what he got in the end? They must have convicted him on the drugs charge for that sentence, disbelieving the "plant" defence. Had it just been a gun he'd probably be on his way home by now courtesy of an extra-judicial backander.

My understanding is that he got 17 years and a fine of 800,000 Baht, and the sentence was reduced by six months because he admitted guilt on the gun charge.

I also understand Johansen intends to appeal, however it will be another 2 years at least before this is heard.

I think all he can hope for now is a transfer to Norway (apparently he will be eligible after 7 years) or a King's pardon. I don't think many people could survive 16.5 years in a Thai prison.

I feel sorry for him. If I were in his situation I would be psychologically crushed right now.

16.5 years.

The problem is worse than one might suppose from the raw numbers. A significant - and it's impossible to say how significant - portion of Thailand's economy is 'underground'.

Thais are liable tor taxation on their income worldwide, but most wealthy Thais have offshore accounts (BVI, Cayman Islands etc.) in which to hide their loot.

Considering how much money is spent on corruption, vote-buying and so forth, as well as earnings from prostitution, illegal drugs, arms and human trafficking one starts to wonder if the black economy might just not be bigger than the legitimate economy. When you consider that Thailand's GDP might be a lot higher than is reported, you even start to question whether thailand really should be classified as a 'developing nation'. And yet there are a lot of poor people, that is undeniable.

My point is, in Thailand there is more than enough to go around, and yet a lot of people are not getting enough. No prizes for guessing where it is all going.

You might have more luck if you change your username, just an idea.

Under the Act, "any alien who stays in the Kingdom without permission, or with permission expired or revoked, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding two years, or a fine not exceeding 20,000 baht, or both."

No change, it has always been an option to apply both penalties.

Agreed. There it is folks.

Much ado about nothing.

>10 years. The case is no longer valid.

There is no statute of limitation in criminal offenses in most countries so not sure about Thailand.

Forgive me for saying this but you are misinformed.

Most crimes are subject to a statute of limitations in most countries in the world. Major felonies such as murder and manslaughter are not usually subject to a statute of limitations. Usually the statutes allow for a prosecution anyway in special circumstances.

Well I suppose he's putting his money where his mouth is as most of us will still be alive in 7 years to see if he's right or wrong.

In seven years time who is going to remember or care?

It's sad that scientists these days feel that the only way they will get attention is if they make the scariest predictions.

Well guess what, one day the sun is going to die, and in the process it will evolve into a 'red giant' and envelop the earth in fiery doom. This is scientific fact. Pretty scary right?

I just pity the polar bears.

I do not know the size of the property you mention , but that sure sounds like a lot of money to have paid in Cambodia , recently we sold a 3 acre property with a 3 bedroom house with full basement , a large store and a large workshop on a major highway for $200,000.00 in southern Ontario , Canada . I have noticed property prices tend to be somewhat high here because people are investing to make a profit in a rapid hurry to sell , so many apartments etc have been built in the past few years and the majority remain empty, could be forming a bubble all of its own .

For the market here now, it isn't a huge amount of money. As you probably know, property prices have risen steadily over the past few years, however the market has been somewhat slow since the global financial crisis.

You are right, though, there is a lot of speculation.

Thanks for the above, very useful.

No, I do not have Cambodian citizenship.

At the time of purchase the land was worth about $250,000 and we'd like to get that, for sure won't sell for less than $200,000. This is the value of the total land, but as mentioned a small sized part of it (but the part with road access) they already owned for many years. I put up $50,000 to purchase the additional land. It is a bit hard to apportion value to their ownings versus mine as the value of both adjacent plots disproportionately increased when they became combined. Although pro-rationed I paid for 95% of the land area I'd be happy with my initial investment back plus say 50% of the remaining profit. (I forget what they originally paid for their portion but it was ages ago and virtually nothing). They have no problem with that. Actually I more or less support this family anyhow and have put/am putting all the kids through university, including one studying abroad, so my gain is also their gain. I expect when the time comes we'll be able to agree on all this amicably, including a consensus around what they do with their profit and the legalities won't matter, just want to have some insurance on it as I am not far from total retirement and need to secure my assets.

I don't like the idea of forming a company just for this, sounds very complicated and this will be the only transaction ever carried out, hopefully within not more than a few years time.

Formalizing the loan/issuing a mortgage sounds interesting but what does that entail? I'm not, obviously, a bank or a financial company, just a private individual.

What is "unused land tax" ?? I assume a tax for owning land not in use? Does it help that they are growing some fruit trees on it??

Appreciate your help.

It is not that difficult to set up a company here, although I agree with you - for a 250,000 property it may not be worth the expense and hassle. It's probably a borderline case.

To formalise the loan you would just prepare a loan agreement, as well as a mortgage agreement or what is called an antichrese. You could then have the mortgage or antichrese registered at the land office so you could enforce it in case they default on the loan etc. It will also prevent them from selling the property.

Unused land tax is not always applied every year but generally the land department will want to see tax receipts at the time of transfer. They can chase you for this retrospectively. I am not sure if the fruit trees help.

Good luck with it.

Hi Sheryl,

I am a foreign lawyer working in Phnom Penh amongst other places.

Unfortunately, real estate transactions in Cambodia - compared to some other jurisdictions - are complicated and relatively expensive.

To register a long term lease you will need to have available the land title deed and you will need the owner's permission/cooperation. Registration of leases is a relatively new concept in Cambodia, and will require detailed negotiation/persuasion with the officials at the land department. It seems no two officials ever interpret the law in the same way

Have you done any due diligence on the land to confirm that the lessor is actually the owner of the land? It is extremely common for problems to arise in relation to this issue alone.

You say you can draft the lease yourself, and I don't doubt you, however I would recommend you at least have a lawyer review it.

Can you give any further details about the transaction? It may be possible to secure your rights as tenant more easily than through lease registration.

You should also note that the new Civil Code will become effective in Cambodia soon. This new code will radically alter the law as regards leases and lease registration, and it is not yet clear whether it will have a retroactive effect. Just something to be aware of, in case you are banking on the lease over the long term.

Send me a private message if you have any specific questions. And good luck .....

There's no doubt about the ownership or the willingness of theo wners to enter into a land leade with me.

I (unofficially) co-own the land with my (also unofficially) adopted Cambodian family. They have owned a small plot of land in Kien Svay for decades, they have the sale paper for it but like many people have never been issued a "plan rung". A year or so ago (just before prices took a nose dive, my bad luck!) a very large swath of land adjacent to theirs came on the market. By itself not worth much as no direct road access, but annexed to theirs creates a large plot with road access in a rapidly developing area (Kien Svay). So I put up the money and they bought it, for that large swath they do have the "plan rung".

It is understood between us that we co-own this land and from the start intention has been to sell, reimburse the money I put in and then share the remaining profit. But it is looking like it may take a few years for real estate prices to come back up so just to be on the safe side I want to make a lease that insures it cannot be sold without my permission. I am not looking to live on the land, this is just a precaution. No-one lives there and it has nothing built on it. Land lease is to my knowledge the simplest way to achieve what I want (insurance that it can't be sold without my agreement) but I'm open to any other ideas you may have.

Am I correct in assuming you are not a Cambodian citizen?

Can you give me an indication of what the land is worth? This will determine the commercial feasibility of various solutions that are available.

To keep it short and simple, if it is worth a lot, I would recomment you incorporate a Cambodian landholding company with the family as 51% shareholders and various other protection documents put into place as appropriate.

If the land is relatively inexpensive I would suggest you just take physical possession of the title deed/deeds. This is not foolproof as it is possible for them to get new ones issued if they report the deeds as lost or stolen, however it will make things more difficult for them if they try to sell the land.

Another option I might recommend is to actually formalise your loan to them and then register a mortgage (or other form of security) over the land, which will mean they cannot sell it without first discharging the security.

I do not like the idea of registering a lease because:

( a ) the tax department could decide it wants some tax paid on the rent; and

( b ) there is some question as to whether a registered lease will actually prohibit the sale of the land to a third party. It is possible that such a sale might be allowed in circumstances where the third party buyer promises to honour the terms of the lease.

You should also be aware that at some point you may have to pay unused land tax.

Sounds like you had rotten luck with the timing of this thing ... I think you're right, it may be a couple of years before the market gets back to a point where you could sell it for a profit. But you can take comfort in the fact that the market does seem to be rapidly picking up where it left off a year or two ago.

Maybe it's time that we stopped thinking about this issue along national lines and rather started considering it as a matter of 'privileged and wealthy' vs. 'poor and vulnerable'.

Because exploitation seems to be more or less universally acceptable amongst western, consumerist societies. Nationality doesn't seem to matter in the modern paradigm.

Hi Sheryl,

I am a foreign lawyer working in Phnom Penh amongst other places.

Unfortunately, real estate transactions in Cambodia - compared to some other jurisdictions - are complicated and relatively expensive.

To register a long term lease you will need to have available the land title deed and you will need the owner's permission/cooperation. Registration of leases is a relatively new concept in Cambodia, and will require detailed negotiation/persuasion with the officials at the land department. It seems no two officials ever interpret the law in the same way

Have you done any due diligence on the land to confirm that the lessor is actually the owner of the land? It is extremely common for problems to arise in relation to this issue alone.

You say you can draft the lease yourself, and I don't doubt you, however I would recommend you at least have a lawyer review it.

Can you give any further details about the transaction? It may be possible to secure your rights as tenant more easily than through lease registration.

You should also note that the new Civil Code will become effective in Cambodia soon. This new code will radically alter the law as regards leases and lease registration, and it is not yet clear whether it will have a retroactive effect. Just something to be aware of, in case you are banking on the lease over the long term.

Send me a private message if you have any specific questions. And good luck .....

Mix 1% with diesel to make safro-diesel B1? It will keep the truck driver happy.

or

Mix 1% with petrol to make safrohol E1? to keep the motorcycle taxi high/

Nobody is getting high from safrole, it still needs to undergo a number of chemical changes before it becomes ecstacy.

Well at least we now all know what to do next time we realise - mid-flight - that we forgot to pack socks.

Motorcycle taxis are a vital transportation link in this country, especially the bigger cities.

Most have come from the northeast and have usually associated themselves with Thaksin and the Red Shirt movement. If this present government can make their working conditions better, help them financially in some way, I am sure many will,in time, come to realize the government isn't all that bad. They could be a valuable ally.

I would agree - but there needs to be some road sense drummed into them. I have had some really bad experiences on the back of them and wondered how I was not killed.

Many bad experiences?

How many bad experiences that nearly kill you does it take before you decide to use an alternative form of transportation?