Johpa

Stop being lazy and read a book on Thai culture written by a Farang? How about actually taking the time to learn to speak and read Thai and then going out and making your own conclusions?

Yes, well after nearly 30 years of speaking and reading Thai and living amongst Thai people both in Thailand and abroad, I have indeed come to my own conclusions which I stated in my post, and that, in my perhaps not quite so humble opinion, is that many posters here do not understand Thai culture very well. And then there are those, such as the poster who believes that exposure to the sun has a direct impact upon cultural behavior thus attempting to perhaps resurrect an earlier form of religious expression that I have a hard time accepting.

really... why don't you enlighten us all with your interpretation of thai culture and language then?

I did attempt to spread some enlightenment in my post by suggesting one read Mulder's book on Thai culture. Muldar explores issues of power and the concept of "face" in depth, subject that are far too complex for quick postings. Muldar's original edition published back in the early 1980s, was the survival bible for an earlier generation of ex-pats, to which I am connected, and it is having read that book that saved my life when my life was threatened by an upset Thai who I had unknowingly caused to lose face. I would imagine that it is even more important for western women getting involved with Thai men to have such an understanding of how Thais perceive power and face.

As for the language issue, I have never heard of the "mai bok" aspect of Thai culture. To my ear, mai bok is normally associated with the past tense as in "khao mai bok", as in "she didn't say". Now we might be able to argue that Thai culture has aspects of "mai pen rai", or "jai yen", or "kreng jai", or a closer phrase to which the OP was leaning one might argue that Thai culture prefers a stance of "mai phuut dii kwaa". But to my ear and in my experience, talking about a "mai bok" culture sounds to me a Farang speaking bar boy Thai.

I believe this is a result of the individual amount of sun which each single region receives. In addition Thai mentality is an explosive mixture which is fundamentally based on personal pride and honor. Why is Thai mentality an explosive mixture? Because of the "mai bock" thing. "Don´t speak! Particularly: Don´t speak bad! Do not criticize!" Means do not to bother anybody with your negative personal issues. Thus: swallow it and thats what the younger generations have to do and learned to do.

Are you Egyptian and thus believe that the ancient sun god Ra controls our destiny?

Sad as this tragedy is to the family and friends of the deceased, so too is the sad state of understanding of Thai culture here by many of the posters.

The "mai bock thing"?!????

Seriously, you folks need to get a better grasp of both Thai culture and the Thai language. May I suggest becoming less lazy and read some of the more penetrating analysis on the subject from authors such as Niels Muldar and less on the tourist oriented literature such as the Mai Pen Rai series.

As one who spent some time in their younger days in the embrace of Lady O, I would not want to see any opiate legalized. First understand that opiates are both physically and psychologically addictive as compared to say marijuana which is psychologically addictive. That means that many people, not everyone, but many people will simply not be able to stop using the opiates. I was one of the lucky ones. And it is a genetic mystery as to just who will become hopelessly addicted: we are simply unable to make that prediction. If their supply is interrupted for any reason whatsoever, they will become both physically and psychologically, how shall we say, incoherent. In that situation they will become a threat not only to themselves, but to others. The fact that many people, for whatever genetic factor, do not have addictive personalities, is irrelevant. The fact that some people are able to function using heroin is also irrelevant, but rest assured they are functioning at an impaired level. The fact that many societies foolishly allow the uncontrolled sales of equally dangerous drugs for profit and taxation is also irrelevant. And a bottom line for many of us with even minimal experience is that you can never, ever trust an addict, even those whose facade would lead you to believe they are functioning just fine.

Another factor is that many people who take opiates fall into a relentless stupor. This was the case in China in the 19th century, the last instance where opiates were made broadly available to a large populace. Society does not function well when large segments cease all productive behavior. Again, the fact that some people's body chemistry handles opiates better than others is irrelevant.

That being said, opiates are an excellent pain killer and in a semi-synthetic form are being prescribed relentlessly as oxycodone, or what I call here in the US as legalized heroin but what the conservatives prefer to call euphemistically as simply pain killers. Somehow it is more socially acceptable for upper and middle class white folks to become addicted to "pain killers" rather than to note an addiction to an opiate.

Once a person has become addicted to opiates, the only reliable treatment, and it is a medical condition and not a criminal behavior, is to allow them controlled access to the drugs and hope they can be slowly weaned off the drug. But to advocate the legalization of any opiate is foolhardy. Decriminalization of usage is one thing, but opiates need to be retained as highly restricted drugs with severe penalties for those attempting to bypass the government controls on the sale of such dangerous drugs. Or at least that is how this former user sees it.

I believe that Pai is becoming this new century's version of the Erawan Resort for Thais, a version of nature with enough domestication to be acceptable, with all inbred fears of the untamed forest removed. Bangkok folks like their nature to be manicured.

First, the tones existed long before the Thai alphabet was created. The Thai alphabet was created to reflect the natural phonetic environment that lent itself to specific tones. Things got a bit muddled up when Thai borrowed copiously from neighboring languages without tones such as Khmer and Pali, not to mention borrowing words from these languages that included consonants that do not exist in Thai.

Second, English has both tones and vowel length, but these phonetic features are not used to convey meaning. As Thais are "tuned" to pick up such things, all things considered, actually this is done subconsciously, they, or their brains neural wiring, tend to plug in the most likely Thai phonetic context. Its basically the same neural wiring that causes many Westerners to hear Ko Kai as a /g/ sound, in this case the most likely English phonetic context.

It's a problem though; a lot of tourists (backpackers) visited Chiang Mai primarily because it's a logical stop on the way to Pai. Many like Chiang Mai town once here, and stay around. If Pai is becoming less attractive (higher prices, more touristy/resorty, an overall less 'vibey' adventurous atmosphere) then there may not BE an alternative in the North near Chiang Mai, meaning people would skip the North (and Chiang Mai) entirely. That would be bad news.

I believe that many of the backpacker tourists have already voted with their wallets and have moved on to Laos and Vietnam.

Anyone knows how to speak Royal Thai language, where would be a good place to learn it?

Just start reading any article about the Royal Family in the newspaper with the help of a Thai friend. It is primarily a matter of vocabulary, mainly a few dozen words used commonly. The other more arduous alternative would be to learn Khmer as much of the Royal vocabulary, not to mention Royal art and architecture, was borrowed long ago from, at the time, the far more powerful rulers of Angkor (Nakorn) Wat back when the Khmer Empire served as the role model for the emerging Tai political powers.

As Thailand's political clock has been wound back by a decade,....

I might be tempted to make the argument that the clock has been wound back several decades.

What a terrible tragedy, although not surprising. While the club owners are culpable the real blame lies with the Thai govt. This tragedy is the product of weak institutions, judiciary, law enforcement etc. A British survivor stated that "laws should be written to protect the people". In fact building and fire codes do exist but as anyone who has spent more that a month in Thailand knows, there is only cursory inspection for the sake of show, while any serious infraction is simply used as a means for the local police to farm funds. Sorry to say that until Thais develop a critical voice, demand transparency/accountability from their govt. these tragedies will continue. One exit, no working sprinkler system and indoor fireworks! As you all are equally aware Thailand in a country of vast resources that paints itself as a third world state. Maybe if the thousands traipsing around in yellow would do a bit of reading they would discover that their nation is the 8th largest exporter of agricultural goods on the planet (read, exceptionally wealthy!) This wealth being controlled by a relative few families. The point being its time for Thailand to stop reveling in false idolatry, pomp and ceremony and demand functional institutions. This all could have so easily been prevented! Heart felt sorrow and condolences to all who have suffered so needlessly.

But is it not part of the definition of a "third world" banana style republic that the nation's wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few families? But your main point is spot on and surprisingly perceptive for a first posting. Welcome, but do tread with caution and continue to choose your words wisely.

This would mean the hundreds of small guesthouses on Khaosan and Samsen have to all shut down.

But assuming you then also close down the Pong, Nana Plaza, and Cowboy there will be no ex-pats remaining in the Capitol.

Bartender! A whiskey for my friend and some water for his high horse.

I will gladly take that there whiskey, but if my tired old mare that has been around for decades appears high to you then you either need to stay away from the bottle or get yourself a new ride.

Happy Trails

Johpa

There is nothing strange about the number of people died,

All things considered, the number of deaths is less than one might expect in a very crowded third world night club fire. Or perhaps were some of you taken in by the thin veneer of Bangkok and lulled into thinking that Thailand was something other than a relatively insignificant third world country, imagining Thailand as country where workplace safety is an issue of concern and where corruption is not rampant?

Funny how that once the work permit restrictions were eased and the majority of Thai toilets were replaced with high rise commodes, so many of you rushed to live and work in Thailand, even after the far, far worse Kader Factory fire had clearly demonstrated the complacency within the government towards workplace safety. Tragedies such as this fire occur on smaller scales throughout the Kingdom on a weekly basis and yet one rarely hears even the briefest sigh of discontent from the ex-pat crowd. But once the same thing happens to a place frequented by ex-pats and other wealthier Bangkok denizens, the wailing and hand-wringing becomes deafening. But in the end, the rose is still the rose, and nothing will change.

Your 'Custom member title' is "Curmudgeon" - very apt. Quite an obnoxious post.

Given your Thai Visa moniker, I will claim a bulls eye and graciously accept your compliments.

I can't say that it had ever crossed my mind to actually asking someone this question. It seems quite personally intrusive.

Although such questions have crossed my mind in some particular encounters, I too have never thought of asking the question as a matter of civility alone. And I daresay it is far easier to just move onto the next question that to read Foucault.

Well, I thought it was pretty clear...

I need a translation from english to thai (in thai characters) to the sentence: 'we live in exile'.

What it means...? I am doing an international project that involves a T-shirt with that sentence printed in 50 languages on it. I have all the languages i need except Thai and Amharic... Thought you might be able to help with the Thai... That's it.

I would expect that without providing any clues to context or intent that you will create a t-shirt with a very wide variety of meanings indeed, and a graphic that will generate great mirth amongst the multi-linguals who encounter it. Your intended phrase can be parsed in many ways in English, ranging from political exile to religious exile to some sort of self-imagined existentialist exile. Languages may have different terms depending upon the context and intent. For example, English often uses the term "excommunicated" for religious exile. So what you thought was wrong, it is not "pretty clear".

There is nothing strange about the number of people died,

All things considered, the number of deaths is less than one might expect in a very crowded third world night club fire. Or perhaps were some of you taken in by the thin veneer of Bangkok and lulled into thinking that Thailand was something other than a relatively insignificant third world country, imagining Thailand as country where workplace safety is an issue of concern and where corruption is not rampant?

Funny how that once the work permit restrictions were eased and the majority of Thai toilets were replaced with high rise commodes, so many of you rushed to live and work in Thailand, even after the far, far worse Kader Factory fire had clearly demonstrated the complacency within the government towards workplace safety. Tragedies such as this fire occur on smaller scales throughout the Kingdom on a weekly basis and yet one rarely hears even the briefest sigh of discontent from the ex-pat crowd. But once the same thing happens to a place frequented by ex-pats and other wealthier Bangkok denizens, the wailing and hand-wringing becomes deafening. But in the end, the rose is still the rose, and nothing will change.

If it was, then Patpong, Nana Plaza and Soi Cowboy would have been shut down years ago.

I'm just amazed that the ol' Patpong Rd area has survived all these decades without a major fire.

What's the Chinese Embassy getting involved for. There haven't even been any reports of Chinese nationals being at the club. Very odd.

Apart from accepting the situation of living in the most southern monthol, may I suggest reading Charm Offensive: How China's Soft Power Is Transforming the World

by Joshua Kurlantzick.

When a Thai woman says "Up to you", it is like when a Western woman says "Go ahead". You know that isn't permision, it's a challenge.

Often more of a dare than a challenge.

this is so bad. i can see the rubble that was sanitka from my balcony, but all i can hear is some awful luk thuung karaoke from a new year's day party that is happening just metres from where the fire took place. i truly doubt this tragedy will change anything. so sad.

It is a sad day for those who knew victims and I extend my condolences, but at least there are still people singing luuk thung songs on the New Year and hope remains. By the way, I doubt anyone singing luuk thung songs would have likely ever entered the Santika or be connected to the powers tasked with establishing and/or enforcing fire codes.

My daughter gave me a tip off that something strange was going on with her Uncle and aunt.

Maybe it is just the Humbert in me, but where is the daughter's web site.

I've living in BKK for a few years running a business back home and am currently studying for a BA in Psychology by distance learning.........

For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it.

Of course being Western raised these thought processes appear to come naturally,....

What do ye think?

Well the first thought, actually the first word that pops into my mind is "hubris". Then I remember that just about everyone I have met over the past several decades who has engaged into a study of "psychology" has done so as an effort to understand their own confused minds. Then I think to myself, why is this person living in Thailand and seemingly living in such a narrow existence that would lead to the preposterous generalizations only a few of which are quoted above. So at the most fundamental level methinks you got shitake mushrooms for brains. Not that I have not met Thais who fit your descriptions, but certainly in no greater number than Westerners.

Sufficiency economic will be looked at differently shortly.

You got that right. Just wait until next week, after the holidays, when massive layoffs wills sweep the US and to a slightly lesser degree in Europe in the retail and service sectors. There is no sufficiency economy for those folks to fall back upon, and in the US, the government is too busy giving aid and succor to the wealthy political donor class, forgetting the real anthem of the French Revolution "Il n'y a pas de pain". The problem facing Thailand is that the urban lumpen proletariat is now too large and too long removed from rural life to be re-absorbed completely into the rural landscape.

What are your qualifications?

My qualifications include having enough common sense to know that income distribution is not represented by a straight line slope as is implied in the moronic parable, and countless other nearly identical parables, attributed to any number of nameless degree holders, that have been making the e-mail rounds for the past several years. I would recommend that instead of paying heed to such silly e-mails, that you read some books by the likes of recent Nobel Laureates Stiglitz or Krugman, or other books on the subject from the likes of Pulitzer Prize winner David Cay Johnston or that upstart young radical Kevin Phillips.

In other words, no qualifications - just rage. Pity.

Crikey, since when does reading books and recommending particular published and noted authors to others equate to rage? But go on and believe in those simplistic silly e-mailed parables and imagine yourself to be my better.

What are your qualifications?

My qualifications include having enough common sense to know that income distribution is not represented by a straight line slope as is implied in the moronic parable, and countless other nearly identical parables, attributed to any number of nameless degree holders, that have been making the e-mail rounds for the past several years. I would recommend that instead of paying heed to such silly e-mails, that you read some books by the likes of recent Nobel Laureates Stiglitz or Krugman, or other books on the subject from the likes of Pulitzer Prize winner David Cay Johnston or that upstart young radical Kevin Phillips.