Johpa

"We are not sure whether it is a primitive species living here or a foreign species.

An interesting set of options that is not particularly complimentary to the Kingdom.

Judging from the definition provided in the RID and further exposition from Rikker, I believe my understanding was incorrect and that hua muang did not refer specifically to a border but to lesser towns under the influence of the more powerful entity, but not yet under direct control. So in that sense, the use of the term "province" would be correct.

We must remember the ambiguity in some Thai geographic terms such as muang, as Rikker notes they can have multiple levels, such as muang relating to either a town, province, or even the entire country as in Muang Thai.

Bottom line is that my initial parsing of the sentence was wrong and I stand corrected.

Caution: More explanations from your favorite cunning linguist.

The /s/ consonant, as well as the various /t/ and /d/ consonants are all articulated along the alveolar ridge, that bony structure behind your teeth. One of the phonological rules of the Thai language is that it does not allow a /s/ sound, or any sibilant or fricative, to be in syllable final position, and so such consonants, where they existed in their original language such as Pali, where such a sound rule does not exist, maintain their place of articulation, the alveolar ridge in this instance, but are altered in the manner of articulation to an allowed form, in this case a stop consonant, the closest allowed proximate.

That different languages maintain different phonological rules is what gives rise to foreign accents. Another similar and commonly encountered example is when native German speakers speak English words beginning with /th/ (interdental fricatives) and we here 'dis' and 'dat' for this and that. In this case both the place and manner of articulation are altered to the closest approximate. And note that since Latin did not have those sounds, English must combine two letters of the Roman alphabet to designate the phonemes.

2. King Taksin led his troops in building up (military) strength in the provinces on the Eastern side in order to return and save Ayuthiya.

This one is the answer.

"ทางหัวเมืองตะวันออก" means 'at the provinces on the Easten side.

Given the ambiguous scope of muang (เมือง) it can refer to eastern borders or eastern districts. I am just not too comfortable using 'province' when referring to that era. The "head" (หัว) of the region implies to me a border area as opposed to tua muang (sorry I can only copy and paste Thai font) the central core of the muang.

The Chuck Wow book is poorly written/edited ... I didn't bother finishing it.

With a pseudonym like that, I question your judgment in even bothering to open the pages.

An author that nobody has mentioned yet is Acaan Pasuk Phongpaichit, as all of her books are worthy reads.

Inside Thai Culture - Niels Mulder

Absolutely Invaluable

Indeed, going back to the original edition entitled Everyday life in Thailand: An interpretation published in 1985, a true survival guide, especially for those not living in the ex-pat ghettos or modern housing estates. This book saved my life once back in the late 1980s when that life had a credible threat made against it. I owe this man a drink.

Thaksin is the root cause of the political crisis that now confronts Thailand -

Thailand is a deeply divided nation thanks to Thaksin -

He has a lot to answer for -

I disagree, Thaksin is but a symptom. The root cause of the instability is the impending and inevitable power vacuum. There are countless plots and subplots (the hedging of bets) involving powerful characters who are attempting to align themselves with others who are also plotting, yet nobody is certain about the endgame. It is a mess and it will be playing itself out live and in color for the next several years before a resolution and some sort of equilibrium are reached.

Back to the Cambodian border crisis: It would be interesting as to whether the whole situation is being played up, even by Hun Sen, who is reportedly very close to Thaksin. What's the chances the Rich One gave him a call and said 'Play it up for 24 to 48 hours'? The trouble in this part of the world is almost every country is run by power-hungry mongrels.

Here endeth the lesson.

If I remember correctly, Thaksin was a critical supporter of Hun Sen during Hun Sen's military coup back in the late 1990s and Thaksin was provided with some telecommunications monopolies as a result. Or was it the possibility of monopolies that instigated the coup?

Bankers are the last to consult about an impending financial crisis (witness USA, Europe, Iceland, etc.) I've been a banker. They deal at the esoteric level of government data, stock market trends, etc. all of which can be so easily misinterpreted and downright manipulated. Not enough of them get out of their air-conditioned offices to rub shoulders with their customers to find out what's really going on with the real world.

You are spot on here. I work on the front line of the economy, retail. Twenty years ago I always had a close relationship not only with the manager of my local branch but also with my "personal" banker. They kept their fingers on the pulse of the local economy. These days the local branch manager runs a turnkey operation, who she might as well be managing a shop in the mall and my "personal" banker is some kid a thousand miles away at a toll free number. In the US, banks no longer serve as the focal point of investment, they are retailers, just like their mall counterparts, and what they sell is debt and make their profits on fees. Those who run these chain stores isolate themselves in their high-rise palaces and suffer from the exact same short comings from that isolation that caused the exile of Acaan Sulak over lese majeste charges decades ago.

For me, if I want to know what is happening with my general local economy, I call my friend who owns the local laundry that caters to the restaurant trade and ask him about the trend of the napkin count, a number that does not lend itself to misinterpretation nor a number that can be manipulated.

To purchase real Gold one must go to one of the shops in China Town?

To purchase "real" gold, you will need to travel to Hong Kong which is where all the hi-so Thais go to purchase gold. You are deceiving yourself to think they would shop with the masses buying Thai "baat" gold in Yaoworat or elsewhere. As others noted baat gold is, at best, around 96%. Priced as if it were 100%, that allows the merchant a minimum 4% margin from the get go.

So within Thailand baat gold is a liquid asset, but outside of Thailand it is not so easy to sell. I have found that Chinese gold shops in the US prefer to avoid baat gold. I was not able to find a single jeweler willing to even attempt a very minor resizing of my gold ring out of fear of cracking something slightly less malleable assumed to be inside.

If properly stamped with the hallmark of one of the major Thai gold shops, the baat gold can be sold back to another gold shop in Thailand at a slight discount to the current price. Within the country it is a valid hedge, with risk, against currency fluctuations and inflation. But you are kidding yourself if you think the gold merchants in Thailand are working on 4% gross profit margins. There are reasons why the Thai elite prefers to purchase in Hong Kong.

My understanding (quite possibly wide of the mark) is that greng jai is a much wider system, a complicated hierarchy with obligations in both directions, those lower down it show deference to those above them and in turn those above them look after those below - a sort of harking back to more feudal times where a poo yai would lord it over the poo noi, but also protect them and in theory care for their well being.

What you are describing here is the classic academic description of Thai society known in the literature as the "patron-client" relationship, a social model favored by many academics in the latter half of the last century and a concept that still holds some water today although the "post-modernists" have moved into another vocabulary. And so yes, one can see the term as being a carry over from part of that older somewhat feudal system, which I believe still has some descriptive value in in the more traditional rural regions.

And to response to Thaddeus, it is indeed necessary to be conversant in a language but it is not sufficient, one also needs to understand the common usage in context of the larger social milieu. However, the fact that we may disagree over the nuances of this single word does in no way imply that either of us is somehow deficient in English, and indeed t'is beneath you to make such ridiculous inferences.

respect

Bingo.

It has nothing to do with respect. Words that imply an English sense of respect might be khao rop, or nap thuu (often sued in combination) , or encapsulated in the phrase bun khun. But kreng jai is more appropriately nuanced with words like deference or subservience. In rural Thailand one is often scolded to kreng jai some dastardly phuu yai even when you want to b1tch slap them because such people (cao nais or some bureaucrat) will otherwise use their power to make your life miserable . Now it can be used in a more positive manner as when one is talking about interacting with senior citizens, but overall it is a feudal expression used to note subservience.

Tanks are useless for quelling civil insurrections. They are cumbersome and chew up the pavement. They have a tendancy to knock over traffic lights, crash into vehicles and get caught up in the low hanging power lines of Bangkok. You can't really fire off the big guns now can you? I'd expect it's normal maintenance. The vehicles have to be started up and moved around on a regular basis to maintain readiness.

Considering all the new elevated highways around Bangkok that drop down into the major avenues, and considering the size of the major intersections, there is nothing that says "I control this space" than a piece of equipment like an old M60. (Mind you rubberized treads with surprisingly little weight per surface area will do little harm to the pavement.) So although not particularly nimble in the smaller sois, given the road maps of Bangkok with wide primary avenues and with convergence on large intersections is common, t'is over all an ill omen. And remember that these beasts can carry anti-personnel rounds (flechettes) and carry at least two smaller (30 cal) automatic weapons.

If it were not for the PAD Taksin would be bleeding this country dry.

When, oh when, are all you relative newbies going to understand that the major difference between Thaksin and the PAD leaders is simply who is going to continue the long established program of bleeding the country dry and how many people will be invited to the party? Thaksin's only sin to the PAD folks is that he kept too much of the spoils to himself and his immediate family and did not share. Worse, he was a relative outsider from the North who did not, as that southerner Prem did, ingratiate himself into the Bangkok club by paying his dues.

I think I will stop reading this topic now. Just wondering, what makes many foreigners think, that PAD is the evil? Maybe many mates are married to Girls from the NE, but does this automatically mean to lose one's brain?

Sorry, I cannot understand it.

Yes, I might have to stop reading too! Just bewilders me that so many posters here on ThaiVisa can't see PAD for what it is, an extreme right wing organization. Maybe many are mates married to what they imagine to be their Bangkok trophy brides from imagined "good" families, but does this over active imagination automatically mean one loses ones sensibilties? Mind you, the woman I have been married to for the past 20 years is from the north, but most of her close friends are either fellow northerners, Isaan folks or Lao. As we all say, those Bangkok folks "kop kan yaak".

My wife "Fought" in the 92 demonstrations, I have had a hard time keeping her in the USA when this started. She is extremely anti Thaskin and his family. We know a group of about 20 successful Thai's in California that traveled together to protest and donate money a month ago. We donated as well.

While many on this board keep complaining about PAD and using the words "legitimate" government. Let me pose a question:

What "legitimate" government would issue diplomatic passports to fugitives from justice, refuse to enforce arrest warrents, and be under judicial review for corruption themselves????

Maybe sombody can explain this imbroglio too a poor simple person like me.

Well to begin with just about every Thai government I have had the pleasure of observing over the last 30 years has taken actions as you describe above so I guess that every legitimate government in Thailand is the short answer. And if every legitimate government acts as such than perhaps there has never been a legitimate government in Thailand.

And if your wife convinced you to donate to an extreme right wing group such as the PAD, then you, as an outsider, really had best keep away from the conversation as she is donating to more of the same old doggy doo doo.

Pinging George

Hey, how about splitting this into two topics, news and comments?

What a loss of face this must be for Thailand.

A country that has never been colonialised before is now colonialised by Sondhi and his croonies.

On the contrary, Thailand has long displayed evidence of colonization. It is run by a small elite that is concentrated in the central trading entrepot of Bangkok and has been running the country on the colonial model for over a century, ever since the Fifth Reign. Prior to that it was a feudal country with a tiny elite dominating a rural population that existed somewhere between servitude and slavery. The more modern elite has exploited the natural resources, as well as the labor of the country, and taken the generated profits out of the country. It has re-invested relatively little back into the country. Neither the PAD nor the PPP wishes to change the colonial model, they are just arguing over which coalition will be in control.

I wonder how long it will take certain larger powers that be to step in, again?

Somchai already stepped in. He ordered the police action.

John, aim higher mate.

There are lots of significant actors higher up, but give me a break, none of them are going to show you their cards over a trivial action such as a little pepper spray used against a few protesters. But rest assured the competing interests are not all using the same deck of cards, not all are playing with a full deck, and some have a few cards hidden up their sleeves.

3. ความเกรงใจ khwaamM graehngM jaiM deference; thoughtfulness; consideration (of another)

From www.Thai-language.com

That is all fine and dandy, but the term has, in practice, quite an expansive range of meanings riding on a continuum from polite consideration of others to kiss arse some phuu yai.

In one of my recent posts in this thread I suggested reading Shakespeare's tragedies to better understand Thai politics. I still think there is much to be learned and applied from Hamlet and Lear et al, but after reading the past day's post methinks it better to forego the iambic pentameter to something simpler in line with the simplified political analysis seen here which, by default, must skirt some of the primary issues of the day.

All around the mulberry bush

The monkey chased the weasel.

The monkey thought 'twas all in fun.

Pop! goes the weasel.

A penny for a spool of thread,

A penny for a needle.

That's the way the money goes.

Pop! goes the weasel.

Up and down the City Road,

In and out of the Eagle,

That's the way the money goes.

Pop! goes the weasel.

Half a pound of tuppenney rice,

Half a pound of treacle,

Mix it up and make it nice,

Pop! goes the weasel

ummm sorry Jopha, but where do you get the numbers you quote for urban educated people only being 10% ethnically Thai? (or Tai if you prefer)

You also seem to not take into account that the PAD has representation from ALL groups in its membership including from the South, from the North etc. You know better than to bandy about numbers like that! Look at the faces of the people that have been active in the PAD protests and then tell us again about the 10%!

Yea sure, the PAD has support from the south and the PPP has some support from the north and my numbers were just guesses, perhaps exaggerated and more realistically the divide is 80/20 and not 90/10. But the power in Thailand is undeniable controlled by the Bangkok based Sino-Thai elite in coalition with the smaller yet still powerful old Sakdina families, and the two groups have experienced considerable intermarriage over the past several generations which of course obscures the ethnic issues, and they continue to morph into ever changing coalitions in order for one group to gain an upper hand. And no matter how you cut the cake and although the ethnic factor is not overt, it is as I stated, and always will be, an undercurrent to political events.

Chamlong's got the guns, Money, and right-wing ultra-nationalist Thai-Chinese PAD behind him and is undoubtedly being well taken care of at the moment. No need to shed tears for the man...

"Thai-Chinese PAD"? --- am I missing something? Wasn't it Thaksin that is Thai Chinese? Perhaps you mean urban,educated Thais

Sure, maybe about 10% of the urban educated Thais come from an ethnic Tai background. But the PAD is certainly adamant about not letting those vast rural masses, around 90% of them being of ethnic Tai background, counting their votes equally to the urban folks. So I believe one is justified to see a not so subtle ethnic undercurrent in these political feuds. And everyone misses the fact that most of the rural folks do have a decent secondary education, they are not uneducated, although most did not enjoy four years of young adult day care in college.

I see little difference between the PPP and the PAD although I might argue that the PPP is more of a traditional coalition between the older Sakdina families and the Sino-Thai Bangkok community. Amongst the minions of the old Sakdina families can be counted a large number of high ranking military officers. And we know that few countries have as many high ranking military officers on a percentage basis as does the Royal Thai Armed Forces.

But who knows what machinations and intrigues are taking place behind the walls as the potential power vacuum seems to increase as time progresses forward as the Thai political body continues to fester from a combination of age and disease. Best to go back to the Bard and re-read the tragedies for an improved understanding and insight of the current Thai political circus.

Hmmm, how confusing. The english letter <c> can be pronounced 2 ways, /k/ or /s/ so it's not a phoneme. But the phoneme /k/ can be pronounced 2 ways, [k] and [kh] but it's only one phoneme not 2. I'm sure this will all eventually make sense.

Are there a limited number of ways of producing an allophone from a phoneme - for instance for /k/ there is the aspirated and unaspirated version? Or does each phoneme just have its own unique set of allophones?

Best to avoid the letter "c" in these discussions. In a sense, there are no English letters per se as the English language uses the Roman alphabet devised for Latin, set against an Anglo-Saxon language. Due to the distance between the Romance languages and the Germanic languages, distant cousins, and the borrowing of Latin based words into English, a result of the Norman invasion of 1066, the letter "c" is used in English to represent a number of phonetic sounds and a number of morphemes as well. The Thai alphabet is far more phonetic than is the Roman alphabet as used in the English language. For a foreign student, learning to read English is a very frustrating endeavor.

An allophone is just another word for the issue coming from a slightly different direction where different phonetic sounds are collapsed into a single phoneme. The phone, the sound, the etic part of the equation has a physical reality. The phoneme, the emic, is not a physical construct but a mental construct. Some argue that your brain is pre-wired to create phonemes in order to facilitate language acquisition as a young child.

Upon request I am reiterating my post as this is a subject that is a bit complex and I am trying to simplify it for our limited needs of improving our spoken Thai. My keyboard does not have Thai letters so I have to copy and paste and although I tried to proofread my copy and pastings I might have erred as Thai fonts appear small on my screen, especially to this aging geezer's graduated bifocals.

The three common voiced stop consonants are the sounds represented by the English letters /g/ /d/ and /b/. Their unvoiced counterparts are /k/, /t/, and /p/. In English these unvoiced consonants are always aspirated in English when they begin a word and always unaspirated when following a /s/ in an initial consonant cluster as in 'skate' or 'sport'. The phonetic environment alone determines the manner of articulation, the aspiration, not the meaning of the word. Note that Thai does not allow an initial consonant cluster and forces the insertion of a short /a/ vowel, which we commonly hear when Thais speak English words like 'skate' as "sa-kate" or 'sport' as "sa-port". And if you listen closely you will hear that old bugaboo, the glottal stop after the inserted short /a/ vowel.

In Thai, these same unvoiced stop consonants can be either aspirated or unaspirated just as they can be either voiced or unvoiced. Thai allows this third contrast to determine meaning just as voicing is allowed to influence meaning in both English and Thai. Aspiration is thus phonemic in Thai but not phonemic in English and the result is that the brain of the average native English speaker will not detect the difference and will infer either an aspirated stop or a voiced stop but not an unaspirated unvoiced stop when it begins a word because that type of sound, an unaspirated unvoiced stop, is not allowed to begin a word in English. The same is true for the glottal stop, most of us just don't hear it and think of the /อ/ as a "silent" letter. (Things could be worse as I have been told that Korean consonants can have three levels of aspiration that are phonemic.)

In English we only need a single letter to represent either the aspirated or unaspirated sound of say /t/ as the phonetic environment alone will determine the manner of articulation. But we do need another letter to represent the voiced counterpart /d/ (the contrast between time/dime). The difference is phonemic in both English and Thai. But aspiration is not phonemic in English as it is in Thai and thus the Thai alphabet distinguishes between ก kai (chicken) / ข khai (egg). (I resort to my trusted AUA method of adding a /h/ after the aspirated stop to distinguish between the two when transliterating).

By the way, you can physically detect the differences without having to use an oscilloscope between aspirated and unaspirated stops by placing a sheet of paper in front of your mouth and noticing the difference of breathiness between the /p/ in "pot" and the /p/ in "spot".

Another example of phonetic vs phonemic in English is that most native speakers of English only think about the language consisting of a single /l/ sound when in fact the words 'laugh' and 'fall' use two very different phonetic consonants. The "back l" of 'fall' is captured to some extent in the spelling as it is usually a double 'll'. In English the "back l" is not phonemic as it is in Welsh and even though we spell the Welsh name 'Lloyd', we do not pronounce the name as it would be pronounced in Welsh. To a Welsh speaker the initial consonant sound in the words "Lloyd" as spoken in Welsh and "loiter" as spoken in English would be as different as the initial consonant sounds in the contrasting pair time/dime.

Why all these rules seem to exist and trying to make sense of them and then attempting to create a universal grammar is the holy grail of theoretical linguistics and attempting to follow those academic arguments is the universal cure for insomnia. But for our purposes of simply trying to learn to speak decent Thai, simply being made aware at this very simplified level is good enough, just one of many tools available.