Johpa

In Thailand, they don't want seem to want to differentiate between the tourist who just stepped off a plane, and one who has lived here for years, has a Thai family, etc.

Doesn't seem fair, but that's the way it is....

It usually isn't a tourist vs non-tourist issue, it usually boils down to a race based issue. It doesn't seem fair because it is not fair and it is not right.

Not only is not not fair it is downright stupid. The policy causes the majority of ex-pats to simply avoid National Parks. It also causes all of those people so despised by so many posters here, the low budget travelers and backpackers, to avoid the National Parks. When you add the large ex-pat community, something like 10,000 in Chiang Mai alone, together with the large numbers of budget tourists, you probably end up with a net loss of income. So generating income must not be the ultimate goal of this policy.

I see this folly almost everyday whenever I am in-country. Our home is within a National Forest/Park boundary, one of those villages grandfathered in as existing before the park boundaries were established. There is a small waterfall nearby. It is very pretty, much prettier than the downright ugly Mae Sa Waterfall complex, not very big, and there are no services provided other than basic toilet facilities. Almost everyday we see tourists riding their rented Honda Dreams driving by the house to the waterfall and then driving back down the road a few minutes later after rejecting the 400B entrance fee. I know the Forestry guys who work there and they are the first to admit that the policy is crazy and that they have few visitors willing to pay the fee. At one time, yeas ago, before the fees increased, there were a few local women who would sell som tam and drinks to visitors. But now there are too few visitors to make it worthwhile.

Now I know there are those neo-sahib expats out there who claim that 400B is not very much. Well if it is only once a month perhaps so. But many tourists will be visiting several parks within a very short time, perhaps two or three waterfalls within a single day, and then it starts to add up to real money for many. What is needed, and what is typically done elsewhere, is selling weekly, monthly, and annual passes to both tourists and Thai alike. In my store in the US, I sell a daily Forest Pass for $5 and a yearly pass for $30, same price for locals or tourists.

Thailand is entwined with Chinese culture and history. Most 'Tai' came down from Southern China only 800 years ago and assimilated with the Mon, Khymer, Malayic etc. groups to form modern Thais.

For centuries there's been a constant stream of Han and other Chinese migrating down and assimilating too.

Even the King is part Chinese.

You are making the same argument as noted anthropologist William Skinner made over 50 years ago that the Chinese are assimilating towards a Thai identity. Some of us would argue the opposite, that the Bangkok Chinese elite caused the Thais to assimilate their Southeast Asian culture towards a more East Asian norm.

I believe that the original is the English version. The English uses the word "Mahout"; the Thai uses the very straight-forward term, "ผู้ดูแลช้าง", he who looks after the elephant.

There is more common word for mahout in Thai, kwan chaang. <sorry, no Thai font>

Total bullocks , you guys are rationalising too much on something that is not there !

Why worry about something that maybe when this , or this and we become this and they think this ,

which we are not really sure about too , so I have too pick that and prepare for that !

Pwoh , got the point ? I do not say yoy cannot write what you think , but it is just a bit too much !

Forget to take our Xanax today?

But the bottom line is that economically and politically, Thailand is an ethnic Chinese colony. At some point in the future, Thailand will align itself more closely with China than with the United States and the west. This will probably happen when the Yuan is accepted as payment in exchange for oil in the Middle East. The question then become whether the Thai-Farang luuk khreung, like my own kids, will be allowed to stay. I am beginning to accept that I would be asked to leave at that distant point in the future.

That sounds rather dramatic, but China has had "luk krungs" for centuries without feeling the need to ask them to leave or anything like cleansing them out. No reason to believe it'll be any different here. Mostly because a generation and a half down the road, they pretty much look like everyone else, usually complete with a local last name and flawless accent as well.

Historically Luuk Kreung have not always fared well in Asia during times of animosity between east and west. Currently there is a fairly positive relationship between China and the US. But when times get tougher and the competition for natural resources gets stiffer then things have the potential to change dramatically for the worse and racism inevitably appears.

I think the doggy doo doo begins to hit the fan when the dollar is no longer the monopoly currency for oil. The first shoe will drop when the Saudis accept Euros and we have the petroeuro rivaling the petrodollar. The second and really big shoe drops when they begin to accept the Yuan.

Rarely preserved after the 3rd generation. At that point, it's up to these descendants to seek out the culture on their own.

Descendants may seek out there own ethnic identity, and certainly descendants of Sino-Thai parents may enter into a long term dialectical identity conundrum. But the bottom line is that economically and politically, Thailand is an ethnic Chinese colony. At some point in the future, Thailand will align itself more closely with China than with the United States and the west. This will probably happen when the Yuan is accepted as payment in exchange for oil in the Middle East. The question then become whether the Thai-Farang luuk khreung, like my own kids, will be allowed to stay. I am beginning to accept that I would be asked to leave at that distant point in the future.

Or perhaps phrased another way:

Three hundred inhabitants of Tambon Thaton living north of the Kok River were pressed into service to build some earthen dams for the local agribusiness land owners of once common lands now converted into citrus orchards. Many of the people asked to donate their labor are from the minority hilltribe villages of the district, which includes at least 11 different minority groups. Many of these same villagers, although having been born in the district, are still unable to obtain full Thai citizenship, and some recently had their Thai citizenship revoked, which led to protests a few months ago at the Amphoe office in Mae Ai. But despite these setbacks, these people were told that they were providing this labor at the request of His Majesty and thus gladly donated their time. They are still awaiting a thank you card from the corporate orchard land owners.

Chaiyo!

uptheos noted

I personally know two Akha people putting themselves through university and I know some hard working Akha people. I also know some Akha people in Doi Wawi who don't have running water and subsequently 'whiff' a bit. But to say this disguusting remark about all Akha is insulting and I'm extremely surprised at the moderaters for letting it go.

Just because one is an advanced member doesn't give that person the right to pin racist comments on this blogsite!!

Just to set the record straight here for those here who may not be familiar with the highland minority cultures, my comment about the dogs and the Akha was not intended to be an insult to the Akha people and I apologize for those who took my tongue-in-cheek humor to infer that I was making disparaging remarks about the Akha. I have had Akha friends for over 25 years now, although the one and only time I was at Wawi was around 1983 and it was still a trek to get there. I lived for several years in a village that neighbors two other Akha villages along the Chiang Mai-Chiang Rai border area. I have slept many a night in my Akha friend's homes without noticing anything odorous about my hosts.

But back when I was living up in the hills, my Akha neighbors enjoyed eating dog meat, and the dogs in the village I was living in were able to smell the Akha approaching and would begin to howl. One always knew when the Akha neighbors were coming to visit several minutes before they arrived. But I, as a scent challenged humanoid, was never able to smell anything out of the ordinary.

I would hope that those who are familiar with highland cultures will see my post in the humorous manner for which it was intended, and again apologies to those who did not get the joke.

My wife and i have owned and operated a elephant camp outside chiangmai for the last 12 years. For starters most if not all elephants wondering in the streets whether it is here in Chiangmai or somewhere else is those Mahouts(handlers) most likely don't even own the elephant they work for folks who buy many elephants to generate money from toursit and the locals on the streets. We pay our handlers monthly salaries that cannot compare what a handler can generate in a day/night walking the streets. ....... What folks don't understand is that the real owners of the elephants walking the streets whether it is the handler himself or just working for the real owners is that there is more money to be made on the streets. Little regard for these awesome beasts.

I think most of the elephants walking the streets are Surin elephants and not elephants originally from the north. There always seem to be several men associated with the elephants which is odd as most elephants only require the single mahout (kwan chaang) for care. So I think it is probably an owner, relatives, and his mahout. Fortunately, there are not all that many elephants walking the streets. On my last visit to Chiang Mai there was but one elephant that seemed to be everywhere, but it was just the one elephant and given the large number of elephants in the region, working the tourist camps remains the preferable work option.

The biggest change over the past 20 years is the centralization of ownership of the elephants by the large elephant camp (pang chaang) owners such as Pho Liang or Mae Liang. If you go back a few decades, the elephants at camps like Mae Sa were mostly independently owned, mostly by Karen, a few of whom might own a handful of elephants. Today, the economics of the tourist business favor the elephant camp owner owning most of the animals. This is not all bad, as many of the elephant camp owners are indeed good people. But when tourism drops then it becomes difficult for the independent owner to find work placement for the animal and they may have little choice other than to hit the streets, especially the Surin people who are who are not as well networked up north where many of the tourist camps are located.

The poor status of the mahouts is another issue, and even the good owners tend to pay them little. This is partially economic and partially cultural as most mahouts are traditionally from minority groups, either Karen up north or Suai in Surin. I remember one elephant camp up in Mae Tang where I got into an argument with a manager over a sign asking tourists not to tip the mahouts. My wife is still upset at me for getting into that argument with a Thai (OK, she gets mad at me anytime I get into an argument with a Thai). But the bottom line is that an elephant camp owner has the potential to make a whole lot of money, the elephant owner can rent out his elephant to the camp owner and then make a decent return on the investment, and the mahout still makes less than minimum wage.

...It is so true that animals can sense if a person is bad or good intentioned.

Yes, I am certain that Roy Horn will be happy to testify to that pipe dream.

I wonder when we will see the Navy or Army moving for disaster control...?

Flooding in flat land areas of Thailand!?! Tell me it is not so. Or did someone fail to notice that the land behind the beach at Chaweng was a large depression with some year round water swamps where there was little habitation apart from a few huts raised on stilts?

I am certain the mighty HTMS Chakri Naruebet is sailing to the rescue of those who built upon the floodplain behind Chaweng beach as we speak!

Chaiyo

GOD BLESSES THE KARENS...

Or perhaps the ta meu xa have forsaken the Paw Ka Nyah.

Johpa what's your take on why this particular accident happened - I'm curious about the touching the tusks thing

I can't speak for any elephant, but I might suppose that male elephants are acutely aware than the human species has an interest in the tusks and are willing to go cause extreme discomfort to the animal in attempts to remove the tusks for the sake of personal profit. Or maybe the animal simply had sensitive tusks just as some of us have sensitive teeth. One of the expenses of owning a male is providing security from ivory robbers. But I can't imagine introducing myself to any new animal (dog, cat, horse, or elephant) by grabbing a body part.

But the French are notorious for not making efforts to understand a foreigner's less than perfect attempts at the French language, and in this story, the man clearly was not going to let a little misunderstanding between him and some Thai yelling at him not to touch the tusks to get in his way.

As for fleeing the scene, any poor Thai knows he is better off fleeing the scene and then seeking the interdiction of a phu yai on his behalf first rather than to immediately become involved with the men in brown. This act may be perceived as an anathema to many foreigners here, but it makes perfect and logical sense from a Thai perspective.

You are right!

And also, You all think human beings are these peaceful animals, WRONG!

I was once attacked by one, thank god he was stopped by the security. My colleague's uncle was killed by one. Ask around and I'm sure you'll hear more stories regarding the true nature of these animals.

Hopefully this will make you think twice before buying drinks for them and assuming this act makes the animal your best friend.

Having once owned an elephant for nearly 20 years, I have found most of the elephants I have encountered to me very peaceful. That being said, I also have found them to be very intelligent and have quite the range of personalities ranging from laid back to petulant to occasionally down right ornery. The first rule of hanging out with elephants is that you keep some distance if you do not know the particular pachyderm, especially males. One should always consult the mahout (kwan chaang) regarding personality before approaching closely.

There is usually one tourist death each year due to really stupid tourist behavior. I remember one tourist being killed by a close friend's elephant after trying to pull out a hair from the tail. The elephant, a really mellow guy, felt some pain and kicked backwards with no intent to kill. But for some sad reason some tourists seem to discount the immense size of these beings.

So your implication that the "true nature" of these animals is violent or evil is way off base. But you are spot on when you note that one should not make an assumption that these wonderful animals are automatically going to become your best friend at first sight.

I, for one, am happy to even belatedly read that the Pickle King got his comeuppance and hopefully sold his business at a loss, a big loss I do hope. He was one of the most odious characters to inhabit the Thai oriented forums on the Internet, and along with a few other more anonymous characters, responsible for the perhaps inevitable decline of the soc.culture.thai newsgroup.

A evil man is dead!

A bad man yes, but not really evil per se. He was a business man who dealt in narcotics and has been retired for nearly a decade is dead. Most of his business partners higher up the distribution chain as well as his willing partners in the financial markets. including big names in Bangkok, are all doing quite well and it is business as usual apart from it being different narcotics these days.

What is most remarkable was his ability to proclaim himself titular head of a Shan independence movement when he was really KMT. One of his trusted lieutenants, Laota, also KMT, morphed into a Lisu headman.

You know that the rates will double for sure. Last year they privatied the water in Chiang Mai. The rates nearly doubled and everything else stayed the same except that the profits went to a supporter of that guy who owns the British football team and all of the employees got a 30% raise as hush money. May become cheaper to fly, jus tlike in the USA.

They are only going to make the cargo service private, not passenger services.

But of course, privatize where it is already profitable to the public sector and then watch the passenger service struggle on its own, like Amtrak in the US. If they privatize the cargo service then it would spell the end of the passenger service in Thailand. But I am certain that is exactly what some others in the private sector want to happen.

So many socialists on this site...

Privatization, when done right, will always beat a government run operation in efficiency.

The problem with the trains in the UK is just lessons on how not to do it.

And the railway in itself could, as it was built by the government, still be owned by them and each user pays a fee - much like car owners pay road tax. Having several shipping-companies running their trucks, cars and boats works - there is no real reason trains cannot work too. If done right.

So many deluded right wing neo-cons on this site.

The situation in the UK simply shows that privatization is not always efficient nor always a positive for the common wealth and common good of the society. There is nothing intrinsically more efficient in privatization vs nationalization of an enterprise, both modes have the potential to "get it right" or get it wrong.

And I always thought that the State Railways of Thailand was one of the more efficient enterprises in the Kingdom, the trains run on time, they are relatively clean, and they are affordable.

Privatisation of government run institutions is needed to increase their efficiency.

Unfortunately it is not unusual for the employees to resist, as they see their

current (possibly cushy) life threatened.

In reality the increased efficiency can result in higher revenues and hence higher rewards for all.

Thailand is just starting down a path that those in the West have already trodden.

Balderdash! Don't suck up that myth that private enterprise is always more efficient. There are efficient private enterprises and there are inefficient private enterprises. There are efficient public enterprises and there are inefficient public enterprises. And although there might be higher revenues as the need for private profit becomes a factor, often at the expense of the worker, those increased rewards are reserved for those few at the top. Money only percolates upward, it never trickles down. Plumbers know what always flows downhill.

And can someone show me where these SRT workers have "cushy" lives? Or does that mean they actually have secure lower middle class jobs that need to be eliminated for more efficiency?

i wouldnt worry too much....the first resort to be built that goes bust will soon stop the development. These grand shemes never amount to much in L.O.S and sooner or later the banks pull the plug and life returns to what it was before the Bangkok dreamers came

Yea, just like Samui and Phuket.

It always irks me that the punishment for government staff who do not peform well is to transfer them 'to the South'. Presumably they are being punished for being corrupt, incompetent or whatever. Thailand can never even begin to solve the troubles in the deep south unless they start sending the brightest and the best of their officials 'to the South'. What sort of signal to the local population does this shortsighted policy convey??

Simon

Trust me, it is not only the more remote provinces in the south that receive the more extreme malfeasants and misfeasants within the Thai bureaucracy.

Any reason a post-op cannot legally be changed in prefix to one of the two normal...?

They really HAVE to make it a special one, out of some fear they might not spot them otherwise?

T'is a conundrum......pre-fix.....post-op........prefix change....little wonder it leads to confusion.

Where is this village exactly? Could you give directions, please? What is it called?

Nienke

It is Ban Tong Luang, a left turn into a smaller soi before you reach the Mae Sa Elephant camp.

Only some permanent residents, diplomatic visitors and children under 16 will be exempt from the measures after the system goes into effect Nov. 20, Immigration Bureau official Takumi Sato said.

Well I reckon that leaves a pretty large gap in safety.

Another idea might be to turn the whole grounds into a "living history museum" of either Thai or Lanna history/culture. Maybe along the lines of Colonial Williamsburg in America. It would provide a lot of jobs and I think it might draw both domestic and foreign tourists.

My friends manage a much smaller but similar type of "musuem" for highland people's cultures and they only get grief from the authorities and from the media.

Do they let guests smoke opium as part of hilltribe exhibit?

That used to be the climax of the opium museum tour on Doi Suthep many years ago.

Alas, today is not like yesterday when tourists would be given the scrapings off the inside of the local opium addicts pipe mixed with aspirin, and sold by the pipe load with some tourists then bragging about taking a dozen hits.

It is a squeaky clean spot along the Mae Sa Valley tourist circuit with examples of traditional highland architecture not so easily found anymore, with minority men and women dressed traditionally in outfits also not so commonly seen anymore outside of significant days like holdays and weddings. The establishment gets heat from others because it also includes a "long neck" family or two. Funny how people will react to having Padaung folks in such a tourist camp but not raise an eyebrow over S'kaw Karen, Lahu, or other minorities. For some reason there is a far, far louder public outcry over a dozen people at this establishment being treated decently as opposed to the thousands of Burmese refugees being treated like dogs as domestic servants of the Thai nouveau upper-middle class.

I was just piqued by the comparison between other historical "living museums" and this village which is similar in that it displays a similarly sanitized version of a lifestyle that really no longer exists. The difference is that of a display of a bygone era two hundred years ago vs a display of a bygone era of only twenty-five years ago.