MikeyIdea

Chanok, the wellbeing of the child is the most important thing by far. Thai Family law puts the child first always

A Thai child has the right to his father and the father has right to his child. How long you've been here, how well you speak Thai and if you live alone or not is not that important. You need to prove that you have well contributed to the childs wellbeing before the mother took the child away (you need receipts too) and you need to prove that you are willing to and can contribute well in the future too. That the father has no income is a bugger, it helps if you can prove that you can well care for the child until adulthood, not only a couple of years.

A Thai child has the right to see her mother and a mother right to see her child too and you will never get sole custody unless mother agrees or has criminal record etc, so I don't think that talking about taking the child abroad in the future is going to be an advantage for you. The international school offering is a good bonus for you

Mother

Nice pay-check, if she can prove the income, then she can easily take care of the child. What she most likely will do in the future is irrelevant.

You need to check with a lawyer (specializing in custody cases) but from the one I have talked to and what I have heard about this, you should be able to get shared custody, you just need to prove what you have done in the past and that you want to, can and will do the same in the future.

"She refuses to let father see the child for several weeks at a time" - If the child is not legimized, then the law allows her to do that

Does anyone have a link to the Thai original of "Book 5 - Family" giving the Thai family law? The Thai original of this one http://www.thailawonline.com/images/thaici...l%20code%20.pdf

Thanks

Mikey

Is it true that Thai law says the child belongs to the father?

No, absolutely not. Thai law actually gives the mother all rights unless specific conditions are fulfilled. In this thread, Mario and other knowledgeable guys give advice about these conditions. We can also see it like this; It is true that Thai law gives equal rights to parents, but the rights do not come automatically for the father, certain conditions must be fulfilled for him to get them

It is interesting to read how (well) Thai law tries to protect the child. But it is contradictory to western views and defies western common sense

Check http://www.thailawonline.com/images/thaici...l%20code%20.pdf on page 15. Nowhere does it state anything about who is the property of who, only the legal child – father status

Section 1536 – Child born from parents married according to the law or within 310 days of marriage being voided is the legitimate child of the husband

Section 1537 – In case the mother divorces and marries again within 310 days, then the child is the legitimate child of the NEW husband. There are 2 speeds at which babies grow inside tummies in Thailand

But this really makes sense. Thai law tries to protect the child. The law is practically based, it does not care about the fathers birth right, it tries to protect the child.

If the marriage has gone sour and the mother and the father divorces before the child is born, AND there is another guy who marries the (pregnant) mother, then isn't it more likely that the child being the legitimate child of the new husband would be better for the child?

Imagine the old husband taking an active role in bringing up the child when the mother has a new husband…

Mikey

Thanks for info PoorSucker. I am interested in if you know of any that got an O visa application on basis for child rejected because he didn't have sole custody. It's difficult to get sole custody and that isn't specified anywhere in the documentation. Certificate of fathership from juvenile court should be enough, at least I thought so...

What about Bangkok, anyone got O based on child with shared custody?

Thanks

Mikey

Conflicting info

Camerata writes one of the benefits of having residency as not having to leave the country within 7 days, Lite Beer, you write the same day.

Sounds impossible to having to leave the same day, what if you are fired in the afternoon?

Are you sure and where do you get the info from?

Thanks for quick responses, excellent

Mikey

2 more questions

What happened with the 50,000 tea money requested a couple of pages back? Did anyone actually have to pay?

I have heard about room 301 at Suan Plu for ages, now with the move to Cheang Wattana, what's the room number?

Most importantly, is the staff the same?

Thanks

Mikey

Hi All,

I currently have a B visa on one year extensions and the company is doing OK but I wish to clarify my possibilities if the company decides to terminate employment. The goal is to be able to continue to be with my child. I have more than 400,000 bath in the bank and I have certificate of fathership (bai rapp long bott) so I am the legal father of my child. I will not register the marriage to the mother so that is not an option though.

If I get terminated, what can I do to change my B visa to something else? I only have 7 days, can I apply for 60 day extension to be with my child and then directy on to O to be with my child?

Thanks

Michael

Hi All,

Wow, I have now read all 26 pages in this thread and I am overwhelmed – information overload and consequent reboot is in progress.

I am a Swede who has been in BKK Thailand for the last 17 years, I fulfill the requirements for consecutive visas, work permit and tax paid but I have not registered my marriage and will not consider doing so. I have a child with the mother and we do still live together (as of now anyway). I am the legal father of the child and will get shared custody if (when) we break up. I want to maximize my chances of getting the residency approved when I apply.

Now, let's see if I have understood it all, I will write a couple of paragraphs below, can some of you knowledgeable people confirm please

Why do I consider humanitarian reasons on basis of child? Well I read http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/r...a_detail_en.pdf

5.2 If the application is approved, the fee for the residence permit is 191,400 baht. However, the residence permit fee for spouses and children (under 20 years of age) of aliens who already had the residence permit or Thai citizens is 95,700 baht.

Does this mean that fee is not linked to if you have a Thai wife or not but rather to for what reason you apply? If you have a Thai wife, then you don't apply in business and pay 95,700 bath (if you are approved of course : ). Is my understanding correct? If apply for residency on the basis of having the child, would the fee be 95,700 or 191,400?

Now, if price is the same in my case, and there is no benefit in applying on bases of having a child, then no need to answer the child specific questions either...

I see myself applying for RP in the category business / work or humanitarian reasons on basis of child. OK, they use a points system, but apart from that… Any reason why one would be more advantageous than the other? Same right?

It is likely that one day the relationship bertween me and the mother will fail and we separate. If I have broken the relationship with the mother but applies for residency on basis of the child, is it possible? And what are my chances? If we still live together but I will not register the wedding, how negative is that? Can I see it as "Better to do business / work, I'll get points for my daughter there anyway"?

I can be rejected and still re-apply next year. Would a rejection negatively affect future applications? How?

A manager in the company I work for got his residency (2005 applicant). He told me that it is important to call down to immigration every day in December to check on progress etc. (or was it also to confirm that they had found nothing missing that he needed to submit? don't think so). The manager insists that calling is crucial to getting application approved and that it was one of the main reasons that he got it approved.

I see nothing of that in this thread, is what he says correct?

There is a lot to do to prepare all documentation and it takes a long time to prepare some of them. Is it OK to get the no-criminal record certificate dated a year or more before handing in the application?

Thanks in Advance

Mikey

Mario, the reason why I ask what options I have if the mother change tabien baan to up-country is that I am locked working in Bangkok and also that I believe I would stand a better chance in a Bangkok juvenile court than in Loei

I assume that I must use juvenile court where the child is registered according to tabien baan when I register the complaint, is this correct?

Thanks

Mikey

Thankyou very much for the answers Mario

Seems immigration in Bangkok don't view me registering the birth of my son myself as legitimising his birth. They said I couldn't get an annual extension to my Non-Imm O based on having a Thai son with his birth certificate and told us to go to the amphur and court to get him legitimised. That's buggered my plans if can't do that until he's 7 years old. They're suggestion, get married, if that's the case then sod 'em we're moving out of Thailand as soon as plans are made. Why should we be forced to get married just for this?

Martin

You are not forced to get married just for this and you do not have to wait until the child is 7 years old IF you take it to juvenile court (saan yawachonn lae krabkroa). I have a Thai friend going through this right now and it is no problem getting certificate of fathership (bai rapp long bott) also if child is less than 7 years old. Taking it to juvenile court takes some 3 months in Bangkok.

Your problems with immigration I think is the old saga, if they don't know the law then it doesn't count. They don't know that as you as father registering the birth, the child is already legimised.

Marrio, you are right about that Amphor must ask the child too, I remember now. The officer in Loei did talk about asking the (not even 3 year old) child and mummy told her that Idea (that's my daughters name) is a big daddy's girl. That was enough. The 7 years can be flexible up-country

Mikey

One other thing to take into consideration is this:

If you legally register the marriage, then the husband and wife together by law share the responsibility for debt. If your legal wife builds up debt, then you as legal husband are by law responsible to pay up, and vice versa. I understand it as a court will order you to pay up regardless of if you gave your consent to your wive's spending or not, and the only thing you can do is to pay first and then sue your wife to get the money back, which of course you never will get

I'm 99% sure, can someone confirm with a nice and even 100%

Mikey

You can apply for extension of stay as parent.

From Police order 777/2551

2.18 In the case of a family member of a Thai(applicable only to parents, spouse, child, adopted child or child of his/her spouse):

Permission will be granted for a period of not more than 1 year at a time.

(1) The alien has obtained a temporary visa (NON-IM)

(2) Proof of family relationship

(3) In the case of a spouse, the marital relationship shall be dejure (legitimate) and de facto;

(4) In the case of a child, adopted child or child of his/her spouse, the said person must not be married, must be living with the family, and must be less than 20 years of age; or

(5) In the case of a parent, one of parents must have an average annual income of not less than 40,000 baht per month or a money deposit of not less than 400,000 baht for expenses within a year.

(6) In case of marriage with a Thai lady, the husband who is an alien must have an average annual income of not less than 40,000 baht per month or a money deposit in a local Thai bank of not less than 400,000 baht for the past 2 months for expenses within a year.

Note: Two months first extension after that 3 months

Thank you for your reply...What papers will I need as proof of my parental status for the Multi Non O aside from the Birth Certificate? According to the other posts the 400K in the account isn't important but in my case the job is, right? I already have a work permit which finishes at the end of this year but will not be renewed due to close of contract (I obviously won't tell them that!)...hence the need for the multiple Non O. So my question is what is the complete gamut of paperwork that I will need to take as an expat one parent child living in Thaialnd to the KL embassy?

I find lopburi3s answers to be excellent but I must question one thing this time. I do not see that you cannot apply for extension based on 2.18.5 only because you are married to a Thai. But I may be wrong of course. It is not always what we read in the police orders that is de facto but sometimes also how immigrations want to interpret things. lopburi3s, where have you heard that?

Another question is: Is it enough to be legally recognized as father of the child? 1) father registers the birth himself or 2) Legally registered marriage with the mother (before or after birth are both OK) or 3 ) getting a certificate of fathership (rapp long bott) OR... does it also require sole custody or custody being granted by juvenile court? I am not sure but I have understood it as being legally recognized as father according to one of the 3 points above does indeed mean that you have shared custody automatically. Unless status is changed by juvenile court.

I am not married to the mother but I have certificate of fathership: The mother is not allowed to change where the child is registered in tabien baan without my consent, I can demand back my child from grand parents and relatives (but not from the mother and she cannot demand back from me). I understand that as I have shared custody

OK, this thread isn't directly about this but I think that it is relevant - if the original opener of the thread can get to stay with his family by requesting to get the extension on basis of being a parent instead.

I can see no trace of that parent must be no less than 49 years old in the new police order. Anyone who knows and can confirm if this rule actually has changed now?

"What papers will I need as proof of my parental status" - There are 3 ways to prove that you legally are the father in Thailand that I know of

1) Your child is legitimized if you registered the birth yourself. Check the birth certificate, that your name is specified as father means nothing in itself legally but if your name ALSO is shown as being the one who registered the birth, that's at the bottom, then the child is legitimized and you are the legal father

2) Legally registered marriage with the mother and you have legitimized her children=> you are the father

3) Certificate of fathership (bai rapp long bott). You can get it at juvenile court (saan yawachonn lae krabkroa) for sure, takes 3 months or so. Some Amphors write it out for you while you wait, takes a few hours and cost a hundred bath or so. The wife must agree and sign and you must also the child. It depends on where you are if Amphor accepts to write it for you or not. Loei where I got mine were more busy playing with my daughter than working and were more than happy to help out, I have heard that Bangkok and Ohuket are out-of-question. Other areas I don't know

Mikey

Good thread. May I stick in with my 2 cents? It's a long post so maybe 22222 cents rather

Thai's have all kinds of more or less useless rituals and habits when they are pregnant. Most of it is old tradition and that is what is making it useless, not that it once didn't help somewhat, it's just that it's not needed any longer – since a generation back but why change only because a medical doctor with 12 years in school and 7 years in university and another 10 years experience actually treating children recommends something? Grand mother with 2 years in school of course still knows better, just look how well she did with her daughter…

Many of the rituals are workarounds, if only the Thai's had followed more of the "scientifically based advice" that exist now a days, then their rituals and workarounds would not be as needed. I write "as needed" because since Thai's don't follow doctors advice, the workarounds are indeed helping. Addressing the root cause instead? Naa, not this generation.

Please understand that yai (grand mom) only wants well, what she does she does out of love. Her knowledge in the area is generally so low that it is virtually incomprehensible, for you that is, not for her or the mother…

Most of the stuff that yai and the young mother (your wife) does will not in any way hurt the kid long term, so regardless of it's usefulness or "well, if you only did this instead, then you wouldn't have to do that", we can just as well let them do what they want to do. The last thing we want is to cause bad feelings, and regardless of how much we insist, when we don't look, then they will do it anyway.

The same thing applies to feeding. Thai grand mothers insist that the only reason that babies cry is that they are hungry and not to give them the breast also the 25^th time in one and the same day is cruel. My daughter Idea was fed 25 times per day, or more, all the time, also after the doctor had recommended that the only reason she is throwing up is that she has been given way too much milk, her little tummy is about to explode, that's why she screams in pain and throws up all over the floor several times every day between 9 and 11 PM. The doctor also kindly explained for the grand mother that we should ask ourselves if the little girl has been fed, and if she already has, then we should not feed her again until it is reasonable that she is hungry. And not even 15 minutes later, even before we had left the hospital, my daughter was fed for the 6^th time that hour…

It is better not to take a fight over these things, after all, it is unlikely that the kid will be harmed for life or die because of the unnecessary or wrong treatment. I just had headache for a month non-stop but kept quiet, after I had suggested going back to the hospital again the following day and the mother answers – What's the point, she doesn't do anything anyway. I thought of mentioning the fact that she had already fed Idea 20 times today and she was just about to do it again but decided, naa, what's the point…

Don't question what or when a pregnant woman wants to eat. Just give it to her

Someone wrote:

"Sometimes you don't know who to listen to" You listen to those with knowledge, the doctors, but do nothing anyway… This applies to pregnancy and the first couple of months after birth. I am not saying that it applies to how Thai children are taught in terms of spirit, self confidence, initiative, creativeness etc. and how to combine Western and Thai values to best result but that's another subject. And a subject that I am passionately interested in so if I start, then I'll never stop... Guys, you don't know what a long post is yet

The reason why there is so much contradicting information in Thailand in regards to pregnancy, I think, is that Thai's do not take qualifications of the person advising into account before soaking it up. My experience is that Thai's are equally quick at dropping something that turned out not so good, as they were at picking it up

Note the difference in knowledge (in my experience) between doctors and nurses in Thailand. Doctors know how to address root causes, nurses know how to recommend workarounds.

Any doctor who recommends ceaseren when the pregnancy is only 3-4 months gone is a sign that a second opinion is needed. Idea's mother is 151 cm tall and 42 kilos and I'm a 6 foot Swede, still she gave birth naturally without any problem and the doctor we had recommended - no ceaseren and no "block lang", can't remember the word now, block pain, unless absolutely necessary. Mummy was worried and asked many times and the doctor just answered "don't know, I see no signs of it being needed", also when she was 8 months pregnant and I had to clean her feet in the shower

Good Luck all of you

Mikey

Proud father of Idea, the Good Idea

17 years in Thailand now, never regretted a second

May I ask for another clarification - I am sure that I one day will need it... It's going to happen...

OK, I am legally the father of my daughter, we are most likely going to get shared custody 50-50 when we brake up.

1) Since we both are legal parents, isn't it so that while we both in practice can change Tabien Baan of the child, none of us have the right to do so without the other parents'consent? What if the mother goes and change without the father knowing? Can the father sue? As sad as it is but in custody cases, it is not uncommon that a strategy to use could be to make the other side look bad, from a legal standpoint...

2) Suppose that Tabien Baan is in Bangkok but the mother goes and changes it to her home village up-country without the fathers consent. Where would the father sue? I would assume where the crime took place which is in Bangkok but is this correct? Or would the father have to sue at new address?

3) Mario writes: There is also no law against parental abduction in Thailand. In case of trouble, the only way to go around it is to file for sole custody.

I assume the most likely case, the one that could happen to me in the future...: Both parents are legally recognized and have shared custody 50-50. The mother has no right to take the child up-country but she does so anyway. OK, the father can sue of course but sue for what? If parental abduction does not exist, then there is no kidnapping case. The father's only option is to sue for sole custody you write but on what grounds would he sue? Not being allowed to be with his child?

4) What about paying for the lawyers costs in cases like these? Who would have to pay the bill in the examples above? Can a father at least expect to get 50% of the bills awarded?

5) If there is such a thing as "court decided that since mummy broke the law by say e.g. taking child up-country without fathers consent, she should pay half of the lawyers costs for daddy", and here it comes - She doesn't pay. Now, can Daddy use the fact that mummy doesn't pay and sue? Can daddy use the fact that mummy is in debt to gain advantage and perhaps get more than 50% custody?

Mikey

Very interesting thread. I must question the correctness of one or two things I read though.

First my own information: I am not married and have a 5 year-old daughter born at Lat Prao hospital and of course, they were kind enough to do the registration for me too. Now that doesn't matter all that much for me because since I am Swedish, the embassy require me to get a certificate of fathership (bai rapp long bott) in order to make my daughter a Swedish citizen anyway. The Swedish Embassy is adamant that the certificate of fathership (bai rapp long boot) must be issued by juvenile court (saan yawachonn lae krabkroa). I went to Amphor in Muang Loei with the mother and easily got the bai rapp long bott there in 2-3 hours for a hundred bath or so, without going to court.

I went all the way to the district Attorney (ajjagarn) in Loei to try to go to court, nice guy by the way, and he told me that he would be happy to allow my case to go to court for the reason of clarifying that there is no "higher document" to prove that I am the father of my daughter in Thailand and to prove the validity of the documents I showed him, but not to get a certificate of fathership, because that I already had

Over to the Question:

I read in this thread that it is not possible to legitimize your child before she is 7 years old. I understand this as not being correct, or at least not followed in many cases. The district attorney was very clear to me that the documents I got proved that I was the father of my daughter according to Thai law. My Daughter was not even 3 years old when I did it. Yes, the mother signed but no one asked my daughter, they all just played with her

There are many Swedes in Thailand, most of us get the bai rapp long bott (certificate of fathership) long before the child is 7 years old (by taking it to juvenile court), hence, it should be very possible according to Thai law to get the certificate of fathership before the child is 7 years old

Comment?

May I suggest that you "translate" the document names to English when you post, petition the court according to section 15480… I think that means to take the case to saan yawachonn lae krabkroa (juvenile court) and get bai rapp long bott (certificate of fathership). Is this correct?

Some info to add

Petitioning the court according to section 15480 takes 3 months or so in Bangkok, always an option. I have a Thai-Thai couple friend going through this right now. It is actually fairly common, as many Thai's don't know the law too, and don't worry until it already has become a problem. The words that the lawyer uses is funny to listen too... "kaa do lae bott" (ask to take care of child). You go to court to ask to take care of your own child

Oupps

I tried to fly abroad with my daughter but without mummy (she had already gone through in another queue) and customs required my daughters birth certificate even though I showed them her Thai passport. I managed to clear this by being polite and smile and speak in quick and good Thai, arguing that I would never have been able to get the passport without the birth certificate in the first place. I feeling is that I would not have been allowed to take my Thai daughter out had I not been able to say that the mother has already gone through in the queue for Thai's

Mikey