KevinB

Sutty - have you ever heard about the massacres of: 14th October 1973, 6th October 1976 and 18th May 1992 ??? Ever heard about the Long Marches and the hundreds of people from Isaan that died at those times? Do you think that people walked all the way from Isaan to Bangkok (often being beaten along the way by Police and Army) for nothing? - why not ask a few of your elder neighbours about 30 or 50 years ago. Understanding what happened in the past five decades might really help some of people posting on the "lethargy" noted by them in the Isaan population today and how it arose - a people subjugated and forced to accept their fate. OH maybe have a look at how the people of Isaan were treated during the Vietnam War when their Lao heritage made them suspect Communists.

In case you don't know some half a million people were evicted from there properties with the construction of the large dams in Isaan. Or do you believe that those massive dams (which you can visit) had no one living there before construction.

While you are talking to the old folk in your area - best you hear it from locals not some smart arse like me posting on ThaiVisa - ask them about what happen to the forests in the area they visited as a kid - ask them about how important those natural areas were to the variety they had in their family diet back then. Ask them if they can show you where there used to be sweet water springs when they were kids. Ask your neighbours how much water used to be in the well and when did it start to get brackish.

I can recommend a couple of other excellent books - they are available outside the country and can even be found in some good provincial libraries in UK. "Pulping the South, Industrial Tree Plantations and the World Paper Economy" by Larry Lohmann and Ricardo Carrere published by Zed Books Ltd in 1996. Or a collection of academic papers co-edited by Lohmann - "The Struggle for Land and the Fate of the Forests." By the way Larry spent decades in Thailand in Isaan in the 1980's and actually was forced to leave after mysteriously eco-minded community based activists started to get murdered. The paper industry is big and very powerful - why not Google it and read about it.

Why not jump in you car and travel to what is left of the Huanamput Forest in Burinam - this is a once famous forest of between 8 to 10,000 acres of valuable hardwood before most of it got turned into a Eucalyptus plantain - despite the heroic stand by a group of Buddhist monks (also worth reading about).

Open you eyes as you drive through Isaan how come there are so many BIG Eucalyptus tree considering that they are indigenous to an island called Australia - maybe they flew here on Quantas - met a pretty Isaan girl and decided to stay. Hey Sutty how to you think that almost every bit of "forest" on the top of most hills in your area have got all the same sort of trees planted in straight rows.

Have a chat with some old folk, have a good look and then admit that history happened even in your part of Isaan.

Good post - lost in isaan. And thanks who ever moved it from the Isaan site to the main ThaiVisa site.

As anyone who has read the posts will have noticed the normal trolls are out accusing the person posting of exaggeration and / or lies. A sad reflection on the level of understanding of many of the farang who live here with the minds and head stuck up some dark and ill-informed place. Those who don't even bother to understand the history of where they live nor read anything other than the numerous mindless post on expat sites.

Might I suggest the writings of one of Thailand's best authors in English - Pira Canning Sudham. He is unique having lived and studied most of his adult life outside the country - New Zealand, Australia and the UK and to have published all his books in English (so those who get so upset with people writing about Thailand with poor grammer can relax when they read him). His writings have achieved international acclaim and most are available locally in good bookshops (yes doubter they do exist - try Asia Books you'll find them in most the big malls). I specifically recommend - People of Esarn - The Dammed of Thailand - recently up-dated and republished by AsiaShire with another of his smaller books The Kingdom in Conflicts.

He is world famous for his spectacularly well written novels based on life in Isaan - Monsoon Country and The Force of Karma (meaning that some people who are well read outside the country have more of an understanding of what is going on in Thailand than many of those who live here with their blinkers on).

Anyway - his writings stand testament to the systematic abuse and deprivation that the group of provinces in the North East known has Isaan have suffered over the decades - the locals, as mainly speaker of Lao, have actually suffer centuries of neglect by the elite and Hi-So in Bangkok. The area suffers the natural affliction of low rainfall, being a plateau many miles from the Indian Ocean from which the main SE Monsoon arrives dumping most its moisture on the rest on the Kingdom before it gets to Isaan and partially shielded from the NE Monsoon blowing in from the Pacific by the mountains of Vietnam. But it's greatest affliction are its "natural resources" mercilessly plundered by Thai industrialists for raw material and their need for power. First came the salt and phosphate "miners" - under the fragile soils lay massive deposits of low grade salt - extracted by the chemical industrials and in the process they contaminated the land. Massive seepage from the salt mines and discharge of waste water damaged paddy and polluted canals and turned rivers brackish. Using this water added a crust / layer of salt to paddies hundreds of km away drastically lowering yields. Next the giant hydro-electric dams - the Sirindhorn and Moonmouth - many now argue them to be ecological disasters which displaced hundred of thousands of small households under their waters and drastically affected everyone down-stream - fisherman, farmers and communities dependent on the flow of water and the regular flooding of rivers and streams to bring in new nutrients to the alluvial soils along the drainage lines. These EGAT projects supplied cheap electricity to the industries in the South while millions in Isaan still waited to be connected to the grid. Then the timber strippers chewed up hundreds of thousand of rai of complex natural forests dragging out millions of USD in hard woods and after the areas had been damaged enough to be reclassified as "degraded" by Forestry Department - the next set of resource grabbers moved it - replanting the areas with non-indigenous trees like eucalyptus for eventual "harvesting" as wood chip for the paper industry (for a while the wood chip was exported raw to Japanese paper mills). The wood and paper industry further contributed to massive water pollution and the period during which new "forests" re-grew most hilly areas experienced severe erosion - silting local steams and drying up ancient springs that had previously provided fresh water. The re-established mono-species forests were devoid of natural fruit trees, important local dietary components during the "hungry season" and the way in which eucalyptus protects itself from competition by other plants by its roots producing its own growth retardants in the soil - local mushrooms, small scrubs (with edible leaves) and bamboo disappeared completely in some areas.

Welcome to the reality of Isaan today - every measured statistic in Thailand from number of women dying in childbirth to infant mortality to proportion of undernourished children ranks Isaan as the poorest area in the Kingdom. It is estimated that 75% of the prostitutes come from Isaan and maybe readers believe it is because those girls want old farangs to slobber and drool on them - NO it is because of their families POVERTY. It has been convenient for the owners of the establishments that make money off them (ask yourself who they are) to keep Isaan poor to maintain the supply of fresh and equally desperate girls.

Wake up folk and smell the coffee and understand how it is brewed and sold in the country you live in.

Thought i'd jump in quickly on this topic.

There is organic and ORGANIC. and as always they mean different things to different people.

if you want CERTIFIED ORGANIC - the process is long (3 to 5 seasons) and arduous and the Inspection Costs are high.

If you want to grow things without chemicals - or reduced chemicals you can start right away but you will struggle.

Now to the market - CERTIFIED ORGANIC = very high premium.

Grown organically on the basis of your own word and honour - marginal price increase.

in the later category there is a very interesting trend in Thailand and it appears to be working. You get linked to an urban family of some means and establish an on-line relationship and at harvest time deliver direct the harvested crop direct to them. These relationship are quite interesting in some case the grower posts pics on line of the crop growing and posts them on line. In some cases the family even visits. More to do with Social media (and the impact on our lives) than farming.

I get the English daily every day in Bangkok and have read on two or three occasions about this scheme over the Xmas and Song Kra (when I was back home with the family on holiday - I, like many of us, travel a lot with my job). if i was home at the moment I could scan the article and send it to you. But i imagine you can get the stories by going on-line with a bit of clever Googling and Bing-ing.

Hope that helps. good Luck. If you'd like to find out more about CERTIFICATION - then i suggest you research it on line - very very difficult but with perseverance - MAJOR REWARD per kg but I'd agree with earlier posts you may be too small and have too little production to progress. I have come across in my work a community project in Vietnam where a whole rice scheme (250ha) went organic - took 4 years to get the certification - they now supply a boutique organic outlet in Paris with organic brown rice (another niche market by the way - rare and unusual grains). Go to an up-scale market in Thailand or organic / green food shop and price purple rice.

Some good advice given already - don't want to rain on your parade but would like to point out the following. As much as you "love" this 30 years old you hint in our post that you ain't gonna be around that much longer.

Well now the truth - any 30 year old lady in Thailand - doesn't like to be left alone and as sure as monkey's have nuts she will get someone else and that person (based on the experience of so many friends and colleagues over the years) is gonna screw them - not literally but financially - first he might come with his own kids(and their financial demands) - before long he will have sold her a hair brain scheme to use what she has access to (including "borrowing"from the kids funds) to really make it big - borrowing against any property you have bought her for safety and using informal money lenders to get together a pile of money for his project and it doesn't matter what safety mechanisms you have put in place - when the goons come to collect their 30% per month payment due on out-standing loan - the suffering is really going to start .

Then they are going to have their own kids - Thai women generally maintain fertility pretty well - and the kids you so dearly want to protect will just be the older kids (and not his kids) and the new one the spoilt little brats..

Added to this at 30 her folks are not doubt in there mid to late 50s - in 15 years time after living a better than normal life off their newly wealthy daughter their health will start to fail and well - no daughter can bear to watch her folks suffer especially with sure good private hospitals available - before you know it there is a another reason to borrow - it's an emergency operation that is required to save a life.

All the grand schemes suggested can't defeat a common Thai belief that if there is a real pressing need for money it is safe to use what you have because if you help those in need somehow the money WILL COME BACK. It just must. Letting your mom, brother, sister, new boyfriend suffer when you have money that is coming in the future (monthly stipend - quarterly annuity payment - annual dividend etc etc) - is simply unacceptable culturally - OH and i forgot to mention what ever you arrange and explain to the good lady - will soon be common knowledge among the extended family and all their friends. The lady will have to have an un-usually "black heart" to resist - Welcome to Thainess. Any family members windfall - is to your benefit as well - all it takes is to whine enough and explain how terrible you need help.

Poor women - who you say you respect - you are just about to turn her life into misery.

Come on guys before you drift off into a slanging match about Colonialism and hatred of European occupation. The truth is in the History - the Ruler at the Time was not a King (hope you can say that) but a Military Dictator who like history often repeats itself was in total control of the country and most of its subjects. His favorite person in the whole world was Bonito Mussolini - the fascist ruler of Italy at the time - El Duce. In fact he was proud to call himself a Fascist. He invited the Japanese to land. If fact the only resistance to the "invasion" was a bunch of Thai soldiers stationed near an airfield in the South who hadn't been told what to expect. After the Japanese commander of the expeditionary force had contacted Bangkok by radio - the resisting units quickly got the message, stopped fighting and helped the Japanese force to land succesfully. Just so you all understand a massive amount of equipment was landed in fact the whole Japanese invasion force that captured the Malay Penisula and finally marched into Singapore to accept the surrender of the British army - the City was large unprepared for a full scale invasion coming from the North (the reason why the Japanese made the deal with the Thais) - in fact most of it's defenses - their massive on-shore batteries all pointed out to sea.

You need to understand the situation in WWII at the time - in 1939 the Germans invaded France and the French surrendered - But in the agreement a big chuck of France was left unoccupied by the Germans and ruled by a compliant Government - Vichy France - which Britain declared an enemy. The moment this happened the Thais seized the opportunity to invade French Indo-China - unfortunately for them there was still a big contingent of French Naval Forces in Saigon - they promptly sailed around the corner and using a couple of cruisers with 10 and 12 inch guns and a couple of spotter planes which were launched by a catapult from a converted frigate and when they landed on the water they were hauled back on board - refuelled and shot off again.The French used aerial sighting and staying out of range of the much lighter armed Thai ships and managed to quickly sink most of the Thai navy. The Thai Government realizing that the French and their deadly accurate guns were a half day sailing from a now undefended Bangkok - decided to make peace - the Peace Accord and their withdrawal from Laos and Cambodia was negotiated for them by the Japanese who if you remember were not at war at the time. And who were still "friends" of the Vichy Government. That is where the relationship and military friendship was forged.

I'm not 100% sure but I think the Japanese actually landed and moved towards the Malaysian border before the infamous day in December 1941 when they launched simultaneous attacks on Pearl Harbour, Hong Kong, Singapore, Jakarta and Darwin - So the Thais were totally compliant with the very elaborate plans of the Japanese - as full Allies of the Japanese not as an innocent nation invaded.

If you want a full 360degree view of the City and the river - Vertigo on the Top of the Banyam Tree has no rivals

and you won't find a more expensive cocktail or one served with more class. But hey guys it is Xmas and we have just

got through another year in Thailand.

Vertigo - on the roof of the Banyam Tree - no rival in terms of a city wide view and shockingly expensive drinks but hell guys it is Xmas and treat yourself and your friends to a present.

Oh bummer - it was so much easier popping into the local police station to sort things out - now it's gonna be a much longer drive to the divisional HQ. Wake up and smell the coffee folks - part of the "problem" with the Thaksin regime (which I think people actually voted for) is one group of people got a bit pissed about always having to share.

To support another OP - when I say prisoners of war I'm not being Eurocentric - most of them were not whites- the word farang means foreigner. Thousands of Indonesians where shipped here - the Dutch had a propensity to recruit Mollucans (an old colonial trick use one tribe or group of islanders to persecute the rest) - a large number of the troops captured in Singapore, Malaysia and Burma were Indian - also all their Non-Commissioned Officers were Punjabi (another colonial trick - getting another religion to manage simple Hindis who joined the British army to avoid the grinding poverty). By the way the Japanese also used the same technique some of the nastiest camp guards were Korean.

Partington is correct the rats (and mice) carry it (and die from it eventually) and the fleas spread it to humans. Plague is similar to Ebola because it is (as shown in the photos) a haemorrhagic fever - you eventually die with blood trickling out of all your orifices (not a pretty sight I'm sure). During the Black Death - when folks didn't have a clue about the disease some Cities were free of the disease and applied the tennets of the Bible to anyone coming from a City or area afflicted by the Plague (obviously being punished by God because they were all sinners). So if you wanted to enter the City you had to accept 3 things 1) destroy your all your possessions (often by burning them) 2) Chuck your clothes on the fire and put on a simple garment provided by the community you were entering - made of sack cloth (the itching and scratching of the rough fabric against your skin was meant to be part of the penance for your sins and 3) last of all put ash on your head. Part of the sack cloth and ash treatment for sinners. But in the process of burning your traveling trunk and baskets it ensured that no infected rodent entered - the fleas living in your doublet (a kinky garment with a flat that dropped to allow easy access to your genitals) also got toasted in the fire and the ash generally killed any fleas already resident in your hair. You entered the pious and much loved by God City with a garment provided by them which even if it did have fleas and lice were not infected.

Well all that ensured the City didn't get the plague and re-enforced the belief of the residents of the City that trusting in the words of the Bible and practicing what it preached was definitely the way to go.

Come on OPs why are so many of you engaging in your regular Thai bashing - Joan Rivers recently died in a Private Clinic in New York while having a minor procedure (gastroscopy I think). The full story isn't out yet (based on the suing culture of the States) but judging by recent statements made by her daughter it looks like the Anaesthetist was responsible. Now we presume that one on the leading ladies of US television wasn't having this done in a cheap and dodgy clinic - so it seems that this happens even in the best of medical establishments.

Ratcatcher - Thanks for posting the Videos. We can blame Thaksin - but I still think, like so many other massacre in WWII, the Vietnam War and Bosnia (and hundreds of other conflicts), it is always the Military on the ground getting out of hand either due to the natural violence and cruelty of the troops - driven by their own lack of understanding of cultural norms or racial insensitivity and importantly - the poor command structure or conversely sadistic and particularly cruel nature of the officer corps in charge.

We can hardly blame the President of the USA for the Mai Lai massacre or what happened at Abu Grav prison - sick soldiers who lacked the humanity to understand that they were dealing with humans (possibly because of their and a command structure that lost touch with what was happening.

But thanks again for two part video presentation - it is something we should never forget and we should also remember that some of the smug officers watching they troops do they "duty" are around today and someone in civil society should identify them and name them.

The importance of Tak Bai is that it partly explains the current violence it the South and some of the callous bombing campaigns the insurgents have carried out - so often now-a-days (post 9-11) is that we strongly condemn Muslim terrorists without remembering that in some ways WE started it.

Kleelof - "I don't get this. Thailand is supposedly in an economic slump, but still building like crazy. They are putting up an 8 floor condo behind my house and they have already sold all the units."

It's called a housing bubble in some circles. But there are others posting in this tread who don't think there are any problems with the Thai economy. I'm impressed - you are obviously well informed and have all the figures at your finger tips - because professionals such as those at the World Bank and Asian Development Bank who have already cut Thailand's growth forecast to only 1.5% (and more recently to a bit below that) - in economic terms (especially considering its neighbours) that almost certainly means a significant slow-down.

The other problem facing the country is the massive private debt this Kingdom has - a lot of the speculative buying of units in condos is driven by bank loans - and the banks are holding other properties as security - all it needs is for a couple of banks to fail the next Central Bank liquidity stress test and they will have to start calling in loans and trying to recover their held assets by selling - selling into a market driven by speculators not eager residents looking to live up in the sky.

A couple of posters have talked in this thread about the difficulty of selling the condos they already own and would like to dispose of - others have countered that it is all Location X 3 - Well next time you have some spare time take a little ride on the BTS and see how many Condos (and office blocks are going up near the new stations on the extension line) - plenty - in what would obviously not be places in a poor location.

So to the 1st Poster - before you buy every condos you think you need in Thailand - why not look at a bit of diversification. I can recommend some property near KL where the urban transit system is being extended (you might find that Malaysia has a more ordered legal system when it comes to the law governing the management of condo properties - I'm sure the one poster sharing his problem as a sole owner resident in a block controlled by some weird set of Asian owners will have real problems trying to sort it out in a Thai court) or why not some juicy properties in Greater Manila or some very nice cluster home projects along the Vietnamese coast. All your eggs in one basket in the hands of a Military Regime - NOT CLEVER.

European Union Economy has recovered!!!!! DREAM ON

Just saw something on a 6pm UK based News Bulletin. The lady (RIP) receiving the "elective beauty treatment" was having work don't on her "tail bone" - it was also reported that when she died she had a 3 inch incision in the region of her lower spine. Hardly just an quick Botox treatment. Something like this (basically bone surgery on her spine) shouldn't be done in a Clinic somewhere in North Bangkok (late at night - if local reporting is correct) - I know that beauty / body contorting procedures are not covered by the NHS but this sounds like a rather major procedure which should have been done in one of Thailand's many first class hospitals - where if something went wrong (possibly an adverse reaction to the anaesthetic) she could have been rapidly moved to a fully equipped and operational intensive care and trauma unit.

Very sad - medical tourism (an important niche market for Thailand) - gone horridly wrong - my condolences to friends and family.

OZ - you are probably not reading the posts anymore - I agree with you the abuse that gets chucked around on TV is enough to make sure you never ever post again. But I think a couple of people have given you some decent answers - there is no active data base - the Japanese are our friends again - all outstanding war criminals are forgiven and forgotten. My uncle was on the Death railway and to his dying day he wouldn't watch a Japanese made television or ride in a Jap car. He took his hatred to his grave with him.

Also I think a couple of people have given you some good advice - befriend the guy further and tell him you are interested in History (that's what it is - history) and ask him directly what he did during the war - bring up the topic that some people don't like to talk about the war - and see if you can gain enough of his trust for him to tell you something / anything. Get started soon - it obviously fascinates you - and he might pop his clogs sometime soon - preventing you from ever even trying to find out anything. Go for it - don't give a sh*t about all the trolls on this site - I often regret that I didn't spend more time with my uncles who fought in the war before they died - I'd loved to have heard their story and what they thought about being alive and living in that amazing time - a real World War not a piffling little conflict like Vietnam, Bosnia or Ukraine.

By the way make sure you either watch the film - The Railwayman (I got a copy at mangpong in BKK) - truly beautifully crafted film or read the book by Eric Lomax. The book is a bit too heavy on trains for my liking but a terrible poignant story one of forgiveness and salvation - and it has a much sadder turn than the film.

Just seen the 10 o'clock News - that didn't take long - they have already admitted they killed the old bugger - cut his body into pieces and dumped it in a klong near ABAC - not far from where they lived in Orchid Villa (km 24 Bang Na Trat Rd) there are even pictures of Police dragging the bit of the river near the bridge - Saw it earlier from the road - they had the place lit up with their super strong accident or crime scene lights. Case solved - it appears she has also owned up to killing another farang (some years ago - someone who wasn't even reported as missing) and also admit to doing the other elderly Japanese guy who fell and broke his neck in the bath - that was blamed on a heart attack.

Well this method of investigation in an Army barracks (what ever they used) sure beats trying to legally try someone as guilty as Oscar Pistorius and him, after 20 months of investigation and a 7 month trial (costing bloody millions), getting away with a prison term that looks like he's only going to do 10 months of his 5 year term.

Someone posted earlier - the danger of being old and lonely in the land of Smiles - RIP dudes. We hoped you died happy.

Apple tart and custard - you are going to have a shelf life problem. Nothing worse than congealed custard - if it's lump it reminds some of us of boarding school. Some of the suggestions need refrigeration which is not always available in all Amazon outlets (I travel a lot and regularly stop for the coffee - which is great).

My life runs a couple of coffe shops and bakes for them - popular items home style cookies (variety of flavours - chocolate to ginger with nuts in middle (they like them crunchie). Individual sponge cakes variety of bases and flavours with nice icing (ie not made with margarine). The advantage you can bake large and cut then ice in individual foil holders that fold up before shipping. In fact what ever you are thinking of work backwards from the problem they will have in displaying them back through shipping and dispatching them.

A lot of posters are whinging about Hotel prices up - we just had an extended weekend family break on the coast that got a very good discount on a reasonable room rate to start with. The place was fairly empty and very few foreigners - talking to the management they have already had to cut staff and will have to crop again if things don't pick-up. But it's just the beginning of the season but their bookings are way down in comparison to the same time last year. I think the article earlier this week - Martial Law affecting tourism is the real reason. There is very little post coup news coverage in Europe and America - generally the only comment is that the military regime is solidifying power and keeping very tight control on things - for the average Joe that equals not a fun place for a stress-free holiday. I chatted to a friend in the travel business in UK and he said there was still strong resistance to traveling to Myanmar because as people noted "isn't that place still controlled by the army" Controlled by the Army = not somewhere for a relaxing holiday.

Sishon Steve wrote "I am conviction driven and stick up for 'the common man' in adversity."

Reading some of your posts - surely you jest. You can't really be a big supporter of the Generals and what they are lauding over at the moment or you obviously haven't seen the poor common folk having they little stalls and homes flatten because some HiSo person has dropped off a brown envelope at the Regimental HQ. I get around a bit and I'm observant and it's really getting a bit sad in places for the common man. Plus in places you are already starting to see the local economy slow perceptibly and there are lots of common folk starting to suffer - general consumer spending is starting to dive and the beginning of a ripple of deflation stalks the land. Adversity - stick around.

PS I also don't like Chang - only drink their Soda water with a good flavoured rum.

He has never WON an election - he got his shot at power by crossing the floor and joining the then opposition. While 'in power' he did sweet nothing - all the things he whined about when Yingluck was in power he could have tried to fix when he was in the PMs seat - he didn't.

The nicest thing about things is that he will never win an election if the boys in green ever give it back to the people to decide.

I found the judgement rather sad - the first black female judge kept quoting legal precedent for shooting an intruder from the deep apartheid era - the 50s and 60s - rather than reflecting a new South Africa where laws are meant to protect the innocent especially abused women (a serious problem in SA). In a country where racial privilege has perverted justice for decades - it again appears that money and fame can enable someone literally to get away with murder. The Police completely botched the investigation of the crime scene, so much so that the prosecution had to rely on circumstantial evidence - incompetent police and the burden of proof piled on to the prosecution made justice very hard to achieve.

Evidence of SMS and WatsApp messages showing severe tensions in the relationship (based on his psychotic control tendencies - rejected by the Judge because "all relations have a rocky time" - and at the same time court evidence from a former girlfriend about another reckless firearm incident totally rejected because she had broken up with the ex. All this from a lady judge!!!!

Next time you hear that a mob - having caught the criminal red handed in the townships - places a tyre over his head, pours petrol and lights it - resorting to a local favourite - a "necklace" - maybe you will understand their frustration with the lack of Justice in SA for the common folk.