ProThaiExpat

Your questions suggest you haven't bothered to use Thaivisa research facilities to answer fundamental questions. Do your homework and then ask your questions and I am sure many, including myself, will be happy to help

If you receive treatment for the condition at any time during your two year waiting period until full waiver of pre-existing conditions, you are not going to get covered for such a pre-existing condition. You would be well advised to seek the help of a physician who could develop a list of collateral conditions that could reasonably be expected to occur as as your condition evolves. Armed with this list, you might be able to come to a written agreement with a liberal insurance company as to what is considered by them to be related to your underlying condition and what is not. You really don't have much recourse in Thailand if you get into a dispute with your insurance company as Thai laws are not what they are in the west regarding "bad faith" claims administration and the like.

Hello.

You should check directly with Bangkok Bank to find answers to your questions. You will find varied responses on forums. You can go into a Bangkok Bank and get information and you can check on their web site.

I believe there are small fees to exchange your funds from U.S. dollars to Thai baht. The fees are smaller using Bangkok Bank, New York. However, my personal experience is that the exchange rate is also lower than other methods.

What other methods offer a better rate without incurring high transfer fees? My transfers show about the same rate posted on SCB, et, al, for travelers checks deposited.

If you check directly with Bangkok Bank about direct deposits you may be asking the wrong questions. They will show you how to jump through all the hoops to open a special account that is not needed if you transfer from your home bank to BKK NY.

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Direct deposit to US bank

Transfer to BKK NY using your ordinary CM savings account number.

Done. As some other English speakers say: "Bob's your uncle".

Then use ATM or whatever method you like to withdraw from your BKK Bank acct.

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Or, if you prefer,

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Visit a branch and find someone who can open a "special" direct deposit account with no ATM or online service.

Then whenever you need access to your money,

Take your passport and passbook to the bank

Find an available supervisor to eventually help you withdraw or transfer your funds.

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Personally, I prefer to use the nearest ATM, but, "Horses for courses".

Are interbank transfers in the US accomplished by wire transfer? If so, isn't there a fee for wire transfers?

I was just able to transfer my SSA Direct Deposit from an Australian Bank to BKK Bank NY in one day. SSA Manila can do it for any bank in the world if you live in Thailand with a telephone call and fax of Form 1199 available at your branch of BKK Bank, after your set up your Direct Deposit Account with BKK Bank.

Details are contained in this parallel thread: "Social Security Benefits - Direct Deposit Or Check?"

Just got off the phone with Beya at SSA Manila and she advised that she would be able to handle any existing direct deposit shifts from any bank anywhere to BKK bank NY as long as the beneficiary is in Thailand. I previously posted her corrected telephone and fax numbers and one day service can't be beat. Changes to the direct deposit bank must be entered on her computer by the 11th of any month prior to the next payment.

For me a noon visit to BKK Bank Branch at Huay Kaew Central Mall and a late afternoon fax to Beya was all that was needed. My understanding is that if you let the bank handle everything, the route is local branch to head office in BKK then to US Embassy in BKK and then from Dept of State to SSA and then SSA enters it into their computer if they don't then send it to Manila for them to enter it. No wonder it takes two months if the bank does it. Make sure your branch fills out the bottom of the 1199 form and gives you the copy marked "Government Agency" for fax transmission to Beya.

I have my checks direct deposited in both Canada and the US. once a month I go to the bank and use my visa card to get the money I think is enough for the month. I then deposit into a account I have there at the Bank of Siam where I have a ATM card.

It cost me about $12 a month with the visa. I then transfer the money from my checking account to my visa. One visit a month to the bank and instantaneous money. If it was any cheaper else where I wouldn't bothered to make thee change. From what I have read here it cost more and can be a hassle direct deposit here.

I don't intend to quibble, but when we talk about the "cost" of transferring money from one countries institution to another countries institution, we look at the starting funds amount transferred and the net amount eventually deposited into the Thai bank account. Comparing that net amount to the forex published rate on that day or hour gets you close to your real cost. Granted the forex rate is not available to us to convert, but it is a reliable figure to judge against daily fluctuations.

I do know that Visa charges 3% for its card use overseas from the US and Canada and there is a charge for a "cash advance", then you have their conversion rate, while fair, is measurably lower than the forex conversion rate for the day. Then most Thai banks charge for processing overseas transfers.

Have you taken into account all of these hidden costs?

I have tried every method of transfer from the US and Australia and thought a wire transfer from my Australian Bank to my Thai Bank was the least expensive as they only charged $24 per transfer regardless of the amount. However, since you don't pay a wire transfer fee when your funds are direct deposited into BKK Bank NY, and BKK bank does publish its daily conversion rates which are competitive with my present Thai bank, I have concluded that the direct deposit method at BKK Bank NY may save me more than $20 a month from the way I am doing it now. If not, I will be the first to post otherwise once my first direct deposit by this method is completed.

There are also transfer time savings and since I visit the mall where there is a BKK bank located at least once a week, I am not inconvenienced by a bank visit once a month.

CORRECTION TO PREVIOUS POST: I don't know what happened but both numbers for the US Embassy Manila SSA office to reach BEA who handles Thailand and BKK Bank are WRONG. Here are the correct numbers Tele to BEA 63 2301 2647 Her fax is 63 2522 1514. Sorry for the mistake. I tried to edit my prior post twice but just couldn't get it done.

I just completed the paper work at BKK Huay Kaew (Central Mall) and while the staff was largely knowledgeable, there were a few hitches since no one evidently had ever faxed in their own 1199 form before. Having made two prior efforts to get the bank to do it and failed years ago, I was going to make sure SSA Manila got my request by sending it myself. It took a call by the staff to a number, probably BKK to confirm that she could fill out the bottom of 1199 which calls for the rep of the bank to verify the information you place at the top of the form regarding the account number and your personal details. BKK may do it routinely when the bank does all the processing and forwarding to the US via the Embassy.

I will call SSA Manila tomorrow to confirm that the fax arrived and all is well regarding the designation of BKK NY as my new bank for that purpose. I will report when all is done, but I suspect there are very few others, if not none, who have the same issue, ie. transfer in Asia of direct deposits from one bank to another in a different country.

I am about to do it and would appreciate hearing if anyone has had an existing direct deposit moved to Bkk Bank New York by the SSA office at the Embassy in Manila. They moved my direct deposit from a US bank to a bank in their jurisdiction, ie. Asia and between banks in Asia all by telephone, but I am wondering if they can move it back to a US bank?

Since my question was so limited in scope, I just finished calling the SSA office in the Manila Embassy and reached a very informative lady who specializes in BKK Bank matters.

She advised that she would mail me the correct form or I could get it from BKK bank, it is form #SF1199. She said once I have opened the requisite accounts, fill out the form and fax it to her in Manila. Call after faxing to her and she would take care of re-directing my direct deposit from my Australian bank to BKK New York.

Her name is BEA, pronounced phonetically BAYA, direct telephone number is 632 522 1514 fax is 632 304 2647.

I can't say if she can move direct deposits from US banks to BKK bank New York or not, but if you live in Thailand and want to do so, she may very well have jurisdiction as Thailand is clearly in their area of responsibility and the bank in question is a Thai bank.

Certainly worth the phone call to see, as the two month wait for the system to work through the Embassy in Thailand is problematic.

I called her on Skype for less than a dollar.

When I first came to Thailand 10 years ago, I tried twice to get this process done though BKK bank and the Embassy in BKK and finally gave up. Perhaps things are better now, but why do it if Manila can handle it.

Her fax number is 6325221514

I am about to do it and would appreciate hearing if anyone has had an existing direct deposit moved to Bkk Bank New York by the SSA office at the Embassy in Manila. They moved my direct deposit from a US bank to a bank in their jurisdiction, ie. Asia and between banks in Asia all by telephone, but I am wondering if they can move it back to a US bank?

It has been said so often on this subject and it is plastered throughout the Department of State web sites, "Compelling Reason to Return".

Sure she should have enough money to pay her way during her visit in the US, however, overstay is the big issue for reviewing officers and it is up to the applicant to convince. Reviewing officers are actually charged or procedurally instructed to have a mindset going into an interview that the applicant will overstay. It is up to the applicant to convince otherwise.

The two kids in Thailand is most compelling if in fact she took care of them full time prior to her application and lived as a family with them. Pictures of she and her kids in a family setting are good. As previously posted, if your long stay in Thailand, now or in the future and can prove it, then getting into your relationship with her might add weight. However, if your long range plans is to return to the US, she would probably do better to not mention you.

Any form of provable commitments in Thailand requiring her presence upon her return adds weight. Doctor appointments, school enrollment, etc. Keep in mind that many poor Thai women do leave their children with parents or other relatives and try to get into the US to improve their incomes and send money home to their families.

Does anyone know what the form number is that is used by Immigration to Certify your Residence, if is the same form as the application and if so what is the application number???

Copy attached to response would be great or link to website. I saw two, TM18 and TM20 but they seemed a bit off point, as do many of Immigration forms they use, English translation is the culprit. See attached.

tm18.doc

tm20.doc

Just back from two years in Australia where their IQ PVR is a dream, never broke down in two years and changed my TV life. After eight years in Thailand saddled with UBC, I was delighted to hear of True's PVR. When I started up with UBC at the beginning of September, I was informed that they would call me when a PVR was "available". Last week, I called their central help line and was advised that the PVR series three was not working well and they couldn't fix the hard drive. I was led to believe that another version would be available sometime and they would call me. As previously posted, in Chiang Mai at least, they have been withdrawn. Does the Dreambox provide the features below, I doubt it???!!!

For those who have not used a sophisticated PVR like IQ, here are some features you can drool over.

1. You can scan ahead for days on the TVs index to search for programs you like and task the recorder to record them when they come on.

2. Easily flags every program in a series and records it when it comes on so you never miss an episode of your favorites.

3. Pauses a program, even if you are watching it live, and allows you to make trips to the front door, toilet or fridge, or wherever.

Sports fans, some major events are shown in the middle of the night in Thailand and not re-broadcast. Not a problem, watch it until you get tired, then record the balance to watch at your convenience. This is possible with most video recorders, however features one and two described above, I don't believe, work with a classic video recorder.

Thanks jazzbo, the response from the Immigration Bureau is certainly clear. Your first statement without attribution may also be correct if one interprets it to mean a mere entry into a bank account without further information from the bank as to the source of that deposit and the nature of its origin certainly would not be enough.

I do recall posts years ago where members obtained actual wire transfer transaction documents to prove source of funds to immigration. I know when I obtained my first non-immO in BKK ten years ago, they wanted proof that the funds in the Thai bank came from overseas and as to the sender of the funds, so I had to get an actual wire transaction report and cover letter from my bank. I suspect this would not be proof enough unless the originating entity of the wire transfer indicated the nature of the wired funds, ie. pension, interest, etc.

Thank our lucky stars immigration accepts Embassy declarations, oaths or whatever.

Maestro: PS my last, more quibble. You use the word "earnings" is such a way as to give me the impression that you believe "earnings" are required to satisfy the requirement for monthly minimums. I have looked long and hard to determine what Immigration requires and whether I am making a truthful statement when I swear at the American Consulate regarding my "monthly income stream". I would guess that Thai Immigrations cares not whether your monthly income stream consists of "earnings" which usually means work related income or investment income, or certainly pension income.

Maestro: I tremble to take issue with anything you post as you are so often "spot on" with your valuable posts, however, the following does deserve a little quibble if I understand the words correctly:

"Evidence of a deposit or incoming remittance in your bank account is not proof of income, ie earnings."

Speaking only of my Aussie bank as I can't remember details from my US Bank, my pension deposit by the Central Bank of Australia is clearly marked in my online account detail and I am sure in my online monthly "statement", the source of the deposit. Likewise my interest income is listed as to its source, ie. "interest income" by each CD generating that income on a monthly basis.

My conclusion, this is good evidence to carry the burden of proof in almost any court in the world. I suspect you meant something else?

As an American receiving his US pension through the OZ government central bank, I went through the process for the "Embassy Letter" as before when my pension and income was USD based. I merely crossed out the reference to US dollars in two places and inserted AUD. The girl at the intake window questioned that I could do this as did the Consulate Officer who took my oath. The changes to the standard US Consulate form were not even mentioned by the Immigration Official who processed by paperwork. I don't know what conversion rate he used to determine my eligibility however since the AUD is approaching par with the USD, it may not have made any difference which he used.

I have wondered for years why the Thai Immigration people are so trusting since no proof of income has ever been reported on Thaivisa as far as I know.

A caution for Americans is that a oatj sworn before a US Government Officer carries a 10 year jail term and a 10K USD fine if it ever goes that far. I rationalized from this information that the Thai Immigration felt those penalties were sufficient to get the truth from Americans about their income stream.

From what is posted so far, a mere statement without an oath, may not carry any penalties of perjury and if the Australian Embassy merely notarizes your statement, rather than require an oath, my guess is there are no penalties Thai Immigration could rely on unless there are Thai Law penalties for providing incorrect information to the police!!! I wouldn't be surprised if there are and the Thai Immigration Police may well be relying on their own law or basic human honesty to make the "pension letters" reflect the truth.

In any case, I would go ahead and get the OZ form mentioned above, merely fill it out and get the Embassy to stamp anything they will on the form, chances area as long as it looks official, it will probably fly, especially if the Embassy logo is at the top. Good luck.

As I have posted, the new office and procedures were a bit intimidating to this "oldie" who remembers the old log books and un-air-conditioned waiting.

Today was my second visit and left within 45 minutes with my non-immO in hand. Once I learned the new system of digital numbering and call boards, things went much smother. For those who are similarly challenged, I offer my moments of empowerment.

1. The machine you get your number from can be read in English by pushing the British Flag, if the immigration officer is not there to help, but when he is away, he turns off the machine so I didn't see any customers use it.

2. The call boards display the number now being served on top and the last number served below it. Three numbers for customers on the left, on the right is the counter number. Today I learned that the call board over the front counter in the middle, really just to the left of the swinging door leading to the desk area displays the number being paged at the moment by flashing. However, the guy who handed me my passport with my new visa in it and who did all the processing for me on both days, didn't bother with the paging system or the flashing number method I had just learned, but beckoned me over to pick it up. He ever gave me the next two forms I would need to get my one year extension.

3. I learned on Wednesday that staff are allocated as to the numbers of applicants there are, so visas get the most staff and extensions and visa changes get one or two people. I waited an hour and a half Wednesday and just 45 minutes today, and they really didn't start processing till shortly before nine.

4. Clearly with 90 day reporting and Residence Certificates being added to the visa office since I was last here, there are many more people to be processed with very little increase in staff that I could see.

5. By having you return, they have eliminated the step where you are sitting in front of the higher ranking officers who must check every detail and check them off before signing. May be different for long term extensions, time will tell.

I have followed this issue for the ten years I have been in Thailand and have been receiving SSA benefits and was surprised to learn that the ATM route worked so well. Since costs of getting your money is really the base criteria for evaluating which system works, I was intrigued by the post that said $30 to take out 2k USD in Thailand by ATM from a direct deposit in a US bank. When you consider wire transfer fees are almost that amount or greater at most banks, the viability of ATM withdrawals is a viable option in my view. I balked at going to BKK bank each month and signing the form to withdraw my money from the restricted SSA account there and putting it into my regular account.

Posts that don't mention this step mislead since the difficulty in going to a BKK branch once a month can be quite bothersome for some who live some distance from one of their branches. Perhaps things have changed since I tried that direct deposit method 10 years ago but some posts suggest it hasn't changed.

We have such a wide variety of US expats in Thailand, perhaps what I do might be of interest. The US Treasury has a International Direct Deposit system to many countries around the world and the money is directly deposited into an account in that country without conversion fees or other bank fees in most instances by the central bank of the host country. It is then a simple matter to make the wire transfer to your Thai account at the bank of your choice. Unfortunately, Thailand is not one of the direct deposit countries.

Why involve another country rather than the US as a conduit? Three years ago with interest rates diving in the US and with published high interest rates in Australia, I explored a transfer of my capital reserves to that country. It looked attractive at the time as the AUD was very weak against the US dollar and the financial crisis was just beginning, I opted to do it. By doing so, I increased the value of those reserves by more than 40% in the interim. I was able to open my accounts and do all of the transfers online from here and from a brokerage account in the US. A simple call to the SSA office at the Embassy in Manila has allowed movement of my direct deposit on three occasions from one bank in the US to another two banks in Oz in the last three years.

It seemed logical to use the direct deposit of my SSA benefit to a checking account there as well as such accounts earn interest just below 5% on checking accounts and higher on CDs. When I closed my brokerage account, I lost my direct free wire transfer privileges so was faced with $60 wire transfer fees from my US bank. My transfer fee from my Aussie bank is 24AUD regardless of the amount of the transfer. Arrival within a couple of days after direct deposit reaches my account, always on the 3rd of the month. This method also allows picking favorable exchange rate weeks.

Not for everyone I am sure, but an option for those who might want to consider a country that has favorable exchange rates, high interest rates and inexpensive wire transfer privileges and don't have Patriot Act type laws. The Euro is weak against the dollar lately, so many countries in Europe may appear attractive as a conduit. PS I do pay a non-resident 10% tax on my interest income automatically deducted from my account each month.

JimGant thanks for the kind words. You put your finger right on my motivation, I really wanted to state my "income stream" in AUD because I have interest income in OZ that puts me over the threshold so I didn't need a bank letter and who knows what would have happened if I had put the US pension in dollars and the interest in AUD.

I did go in armed with the actual AUD deposit in my account in OZ showing the source of the deposit as well as an online bank account detail showing the interest income just in case.

Thanks for the tip about an immediate try for an extension of my non-immO for a year on the day I get that visa as the beginning of October is more convenient for my long term travel plans than New Years otherwise if they do the post date thing, ie. my tourist visa expires on Oct 25 so they start the non-imm-O on that date, then start the extension 90 days after that thus starting my one year in late January. That is the way they did it last time, I don't know if it is to save me permitted days in Thailand or a desire to put off dealing with the next document until all my time is exhausted on the existing one? I have various reports on post dated start dates.

I would think the officer who has just approved the non-immO based on the same grounds as the extension would be reducing review time if he did both at once but what makes sense to us doesn't necessarily make sense to immigration officers faced with many challenges from temporary visitors who are not as "above board" as we are. I will advise when it happens.

Just back from CM Immigration and was astounded in the changes that have occurred in the two years I have been in Australia. I overheard a customs officer, hard to see them as police anymore as they wear polo shirts, tell an irate customer in response to his bitch about coming back, was that the work force assigned to that office is allocated based on the number of people they have to deal with in each category. Visas get the most staff and extensions the least.

I thought there was only one desk under the sign for counter 7, the extension counter, but actually there are three or more. When my number was finally called, and it was number 206, the first served was 200, it was an hour and a half after I arrived. There were some customers who took a very long time as they didn't have the proper documentation. Also, the immigration office there now processes residency documents and 90 day reporting and those have been added to their work load as both of those issues used to be handled across the parking lot.

In the old days when we signed in on a book at the right window, they rarely processed more than 12 names in a morning, routinely cutting off signing up after 10:30am allowing them to get all their morning processing done by noon. Often their afternoons are involved in police training, sports events etc.

Yes, I was perturbed because the customer immediately before me seemed to take the longest. The form they gave me didn't seem right for my obtaining a non-immigrant O visa from a tourist visa and I checked with three or for staff members and was assured the form for long stay was correct.

First thing the staff member told me when I sat down was I had the wrong form. Upon reflection I realized I had asked for a long stay visa based retirement and maybe the word extension crept in. The correct wording before I can fault the staff for the wrong form was "Change of Visa" Exactly the same form as the visa extension form except for the title at the top. Anyway, I quickly filled out the form as the officer processed by papers.

Incidentally since I get my US Government pension through the Australian Central Bank in Australia though the US Treasury direct deposit scheme, I modified the form from the US Consulate to read AUD rather than USD. Both of the staff at the Consulate brought up this change on the form and raised the issue that it might not be accepted at immigration. No worries, the officer never even mentioned it and since I would be lying if I said the pension was received in US Dollars as the form calls for, I felt justified in being truthful. I am sure immigration deals with many Aussies with AUD denominated pensions.

Return in two days to give them time to check their computers to see if I have raised any red flags and then I will have "changed my visa" from tourist to non-immO and then to extension for one year in 90 days. By the way I have done this process three times so even experienced hands get it wrong on occasion and many customers are going through it for the first time, no wonder there are delays.

Footnote: For lopburi3 and others who posted on the need for a visa vs. 30 day on arrival for returning long stayers, the first question the Quantas counter person asked me when I handed her my passport, was did I have a continuation ticket as none appeared on my ticket in her computer. Oh how glad I was I went to the trouble of getting a visa. Thank you lopburi3 and the others, I really didn't need a refusal for boarding experience since the trip took an additional 4 hours sitting on the runway at Rayong airport because we couldn't land because of rain in BKK.

Such great and accurate advice. Thank you all who have replied. I will bite my tongue as I do most times I deal with Immigration and Consulates and go back and get a tourist visa in Sydney. I opted to not continue with obtaining a Visa when the 30 day permit to stay was suggested by the guy at the visa window but the small print at the bottom of the document clearly states a ticket leaving Thailand is required. I will take a pre-addressed stamped envelope so they might mail the visa to me after two days avoiding at least one more hour and half bus trip into the city during the rush hour.

The friendly Thai at the window agreed that a two day delay in giving me the visa was really not sensible but that is their policy.

The advice about Australian Airlines being sticklers regarding immigration regulations is quite true and I have no interest in risking a denial of boarding.

Thanks again for your prompt and accurate replies.

Having never entered Thailand without a Visa, my question is: regarding the 30 day permission to stay stamp issued to those holders of passports from visa exempt countries, will I be required to have a round trip ticket?

My round trip ticket is BKK to SYD to BKK on Quantas. I am returning to Thailand with years of yearly extensions of Non-O visas in my passport, but my last one has expired so I will be arriving without a current re-entry permit, nor a current extension of my non-immigrant O.

Will I get in without a ticket showing a departure???

Would any documents showing I retired in Thailand 10 years ago help? Are they needed.

Sure would appreciate information from someone who has done this recently. I have read the regulations but they are couched in terms of Tourists and not those returning to Thailand from an overseas trip. Most suggest a departure ticket is needed!!! Many thanks for your help.

The small scratchy pad on the liquid soap stick goes by the brand name in the US and is manufactured by the 3m company. There are now many cheaper copies out there. Tesco and Carrefour have them sporadically.

The abrasive pad will not damage your tiles. I have used the scratchy pad on painted walls for stubborn stains, clothing when rubbing is required and certainly on pots and pans, although a wire scratch pad is the strongest for pans.

The grout itself is a sand based powder, perhaps with some adhesive added, and you can get the non-sand version that gives a smooth appearance. It is usually quite porous and that is why a penetrating form of cleaner is required for long term clean. Bleach is best in my view although there are many cleaners out there that have bleach in them and you can easily tell by their smell.

In Australia, they have one called "Bam" for bathrooms and it is five times as expensive as bleach and you need to use much more as the amount of bleach in their formula is not as strong, obviously, as pure bleach. It also has soap in it that foams and makes the job more problematic.

I have used a grout knife, described previously as a thin blade with abrasive chips on the leading edge and a handle for use. They are designed for grout removal and will take off as much of the grout surface as you desire. Downside is as you remove grout, the indentation between tiles which is the grout line, increases and thus catches more dirt. I had my grout applied even with the surface of the adjoining tile for ease of cleaning and my tiles are not beveled on their edges so I have a fairly flat surface tile to tile. Didn't stop the discoloration however, as the grout is porous.

I usually apply the bleach to patches of 2-3 meters by 2-3 meters and just pour it out of the bottle following the grout line. I will use a application tool, next time, either the soap wand from 3m or the ketchup bottle approach described by a poster earlier. That approach should cut down the use of unneeded bleach which just adds to the fumes.

There are many grout sealers but the conventional wisdom and my experience says you only get about six months of protection from the sealers before the sealer is worn off and a new sealer application is required.

I even bought some sealer for my tile floors throughout the house when first installed and it lasted just about as long as I expected, six months. Ten years later, the grout is uniformly dark, and while it does created a checkerboard appearance, the tiles are 18 inch and so not too objectionable. I toyed with the idea of using a dark grout to begin with but ended up with one anyway.

My floors are mopped daily, but unless you clean the tile, tile by tile, the surface dirt from one tile is carried by the liquid floor cleaner into the adjoining grout lines. Bleach does it for me and I am talking about 200 sq. meters of tile floors.

Pay what ever you like, what ever you decide you'll be wasting your money, as tooth paste wont work on Thai floor grout. There are proper grout cleaner's they work after a fashion, Try putting neat bleach leave for 30min: (Dont let dry) or so then mop off. Might need to give it a couple of go's. Small bit's at a time. That's if it's ceramic's not marble/granite. I use a plastic spray to to apply the bleach. In the loo it's a doddle as you can use the bum spray to wash down. tip open window's.

Quite right, there are some spray bottles that direct the spray in a line rather than a circle. The beauty of bleach is that it permeates the grout, which is usually porous and continues to clean long after applied, even after clean up.

A long handled stiff bristle brush saves the back but beware of fumes from bleach, well ventilated room is a must.

I may try a dish washer stick with reservoir handle with the 3m Scotch Abrasive Pad next time around as I have used that almost everywhere else with liquid soap with great results, ie. walls etc. Loaded with bleach, it would restrict the application area to the width of the pad and the abrasive pad should do better than a tooth brush or bristle brush that is much too wide for best results.