misterjag

If a farang was part of the mob that burned and looted Central World then he ought to be arrested.

Anybody recognize him?

"This video has been removed by the user." It wasn't real news anyways!

Here's a piece of real news:

Sacrifices in Bangkok

The time has come for statesmanship from Abhisit and Thaksin

By Pasuk Phongpaichit and Chris Baker, Wall Street Journal

The violence leading up to the burning of central Bangkok on Wednesday is the worst moment in Thailand's modern history. More people killed and injured over the last six weeks than in any of the many prior incidents. More property damaged. More dismay and despair. More of the future destroyed.

This terrible week will further harden the already brittle divisions in Thai society. On one side, the antigovernment red shirts have a new pantheon of martyrs, a thousand stories about the government and army as brutal killers, and a million reasons for resentment and revenge. On the other, the government and its supporters can point to the fires and looting as proof that the red shirts were just savages all along, and don't deserve to be taken seriously or accorded any mercy. These two refrains are already gaining currency, confirming prejudices and fanning hatred.

Both sides have their stories of perfidy. Pro-government forces claim the arson shows signs of prior planning. They seize on former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's comment that a military crackdown might spark a guerrilla war as proof that he is the orchestrating hand. Pro-red sympathizers argue that the fires were deliberately set to discredit the reds.

This kind of mutual recrimination is the easy route. And a fatal one.

Those who unconditionally condemn the red shirts need to ask themselves a few questions. Why did this protest attract so many people and stretch on for so long with relatively little violence until the end? Why, as the soldiers approached, were 5,000 people willing to remain in the encampment, announcing they were ready to die?

Yes, perhaps camaraderie and a siege mentality helped keep many protesters behind the barricades until the bitter end. But one still has to ask, why do so many ordinary Thais feel so desperate about the situation that they're willing to sacrifice their lives? Why, even in the final days, were people on the roadsides cheering on the red shirts and jeering the security forces? Why are people in so many provincial towns now destroying government property?

The easy answer traded among those who oppose the red shirts is that they are stupid, uneducated and paid by Mr. Thaksin. This thinking is a way of avoiding questions about what has been happening in Thai society over the past generation, a way of plugging one's own eyes and ears. But it leads nowhere—or to another May 19, sooner or later.

Wednesday's events threw two key facts about Thailand into sharp relief. First, because the Thai economy is so integrated with the world, the country's internal conflicts are played out in the full glare of international publicity, and the economy will be badly burned too. Second, a lot of ordinary, reasonable people are very angry about what has happened to the political system. If they are not soothed by real changes, then the frustrations will keep spilling into violence of one sort or another. Thailand needs to bring its politics into line with its economy.

This could be the moment for Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to show true statesmanship. The path toward social peace at such a terrible moment requires mercy, a readiness to compromise and some steel to persuade one's own followers to show compassion.

Several recent opinion surveys have shown that the overwhelming majority of Thais believe a fair judicial system, open press and electoral democracy are the best tools for resolving social conflict. Mr. Abhisit needs to ensure that the pro-government yellow-shirt leaders responsible for the airport occupations in late 2008 when they were in opposition are subject to the same judicial accounting as the red shirts. He also needs to remove the repression on red media, and give no covert government support for yellow-shirt reprisals against the reds.

He also needs to put an early election back on the table, and remove all the conditionality that made the earlier offer unconvincing. Since it is very likely that Mr. Abhisit's Democrat Party would lose that poll, this would amount to an act of sacrifice. The alternative is hiding behind the military and invoking more repression.

<a name="U30849144185V2H">This could also be a great moment for Mr. Thaksin. The movement he helped foment has now become a raging tiger. Were he to return and ride this beast, it would probably devour him. In his heart, he probably knows that. So this is an opportune moment to get down from the tiger's back. In a Buddhist society like Thailand, renunciation of one's personal interests is very highly valued. Were he publicly to renounce any intent to recover his seized assets and return to Thailand to serve his two years in jail, that would be seen as a heroic gesture.

Many Thais have made sacrifices or had sacrifices forced upon them this week. Thailand's future hinges on whether these two men are big enough for the personal sacrifices that such an awful moment demands.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...=wsj_india_main

Lincoln authored the Emancipation Proclamation, freeing the slaves. If Abhisit wants to be mentioned in the same sentence as Lincoln, he'll act like a statesman and put his Roadmap to Peace initiative back on the table. That would help heal this country.

I agree that the Red Shirt leadership were foolish in not accepting Abhisit's compromise without trying to attach ridiculous conditions, but fail to understand how their surrender yesterday meant they abandoned their followers. Were they supposed to encourage their followers to fight to the death?

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

Thai protests: military crackdown only widens divide

By opting to use military force against the redshirt protesters, the Thai government has lost the opportunity to craft a settlement for an orderly transition

By Duncan McCargo, The Guardian

The end of the formal protests solves nothing; indeed, it seems to be ushering in a new and even more disturbing phase of random violence and mayhem. The deep-rooted tension between pro- and anti-Thaksin networks have not gone away...

Normalcy will not be restored in Thailand until a genuine accommodation is reached between the two sides. Such an accommodation might take the form of a political deal, a power-sharing arrangement, or some kind of substantial decentralization. Elections are needed, sooner rather than later, as part of this process.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/1...itary-crackdown

The red shirts do not want an unconditional ceasefire. They will only make more impossible demands. Why is the foreign media supporting the red side. Why are they ignoring that the reds have arms as well?

I agree. They don't get it. The reds have lost all credibility.

The reds shirt were winning last week. If they had accepted the Roadmap then they could have gone home happy and victorious. But we all see what happened...........

There's a danger that whatever political gains the Red Shirts have won through their protests will be squandered by their naivety . This government isn't going to indite itself for using excessive force. The Red Shirts should focus on getting the assurances they need on dissolution, election scheduling and satisfactory terms in a general amnesty. Then they should peacefully decamp.

The Red Shirts can pursue those responsible for violence through the courts or hold hearings on the issue after the next election. Otherwise, whatever political gains they've won by their protests will be squandered.

The best the Red Shirts can hope for is a general amnesty that covers the non-combatants. The government isn't going to indite itself for using lethal force in a reckless manner when the Red shirts were infiltrated by black-hooded militia bearing M-16s.

Time to for mark and Co to send in the troops and send the reds back home, this charade has been going on way too long.

Reds keep on coming up with excuses, government has been more then patient enough.

Love the part where they write :Crowds at the Reds' camp, which swelled to as many as 100,000 people in the early days, dwindled to just a few thousand last week as a resolution appeared near and thunder storms dumped heavy rain on the garbage-strewn protest site.

Never heard of trash bins?

It doesn't matter what Abhisit and the Democrats do in terms of policy. They achieved office through an election that was tainted by the coup and is illegitimate in the eyes of many Thai.

I can understand the Red Shirts desire to get a statement from the government about the violence but this should be part of the terms of a general amnesty. Once the Red Shirts have got the assurances they need regarding the scheduling of the dissolution of parliament and date of elections and are satisfied with the terms of amnesty, they should disperse.

The Red Shirts won't surrender their right to seek redress through the courts by ending their protests.

Abhisit needs to focus on reaching an agreement with the Red Shirts. None of these statements move that process forward.

the problem the reds have now is getting all the heavy munitions out of the area without the authorities catching them doing it

if they catch them trying to move all the munitions buried in Lumpini park then thats another nail in the 'we were peaceful protestors'' coffin and adds to the terrorist charges that they are so keen to defend in court.

if they leave them then the authorities will find them anyway

so they have a rock and a hard place problem

they can hardly claim 'not us' when they are concealed behind enemy lines ...........

This whole agreement could fall apart if Abhisit isn't granting a general amnesty and permitting the protesters to peacefully disperse en mass. The protesters shouldn't be subject to pat downs or harassment. Just let them leave the retail district peacefully.

If the police and/or military want to uncover the identities of the hooded militia, they can resume their investigation after the retail district is clear of protesters.

Abhisit needs to decisively seize the initiative to end this standoff now. Peacefully clearing the retail district of thousands of protesters is a far greater priority than hunting down a relative handful of militia.

In other words let them smuggle all the firepower out of Bangkok

They will need it for there next protest if the democrats some how win the next election

Sounds acceptable. Abhisit has so far proposed November 14 elections, but he has not set a date to dissolve parliament and he has not confirmed the November 14 date with the Election Commission. So far it's just a proposal. He needs to go that further step and confirm that he's sincere about holding elections, confirm the date with the Election Commission and then I'm sure the red shirts will gladly go home.

It's understandable that the Red Shirts would need some further assurances or clarifications. At this point at least, it sounds like both parties want to end the standoff and are acting in good faith.

the problem the reds have now is getting all the heavy munitions out of the area without the authorities catching them doing it

if they catch them trying to move all the munitions buried in Lumpini park then thats another nail in the 'we were peaceful protestors'' coffin and adds to the terrorist charges that they are so keen to defend in court.

if they leave them then the authorities will find them anyway

so they have a rock and a hard place problem

they can hardly claim 'not us' when they are concealed behind enemy lines ...........

If the police and/or military want to uncover the identities of the hooded militia, they can resume their investigation after the retail district is clear of protesters.

Abhisit needs to decisively seize the initiative to end this standoff now. Peacefully clearing the retail district of thousands of protesters is a far greater priority than hunting down a relative handful of militia.

Abhisit deserves credit for independently fashioning a satisfactory compromise in a statesman-like fashion and avoiding further bloodshed.

The Red Shirts have successfully pushed their issues to the forefront of the political agenda, rallied impressive numbers of Thais to their cause, and galvanized their supporters ahead of parliamentary elections in six months. There they'll have the opportunity via the ballot box to start down the path of transforming the political landscape.

If they accept Abhisit's compromise, the Red Shirts will have succeeded through civil disobedience in making redress of their grievances a national priority and accelerated elections by 6 months. They can declare victory and use the momentum generated to reshape Parliament through the ballot box. IMO they ought to accept the compromise subject to further clarification of the details.

"Civil disobedience" doesn't usually involve throwing hand grenades and shooting people.

You're confusing the black-hooded militia with the Red Shirts.

Not at all --- the black shirted "Ronin" are Sae Daeng's creatures by his own public admission. Sae daeng is a Thaksin associate and a red shirt leader. The red shirt guards disregarded directions from other red shirt leaders to listen to Sae Daeng about the barricades blocking access to Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital.

If A=B and B=C then A=C.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Mystery-Atta...uc-t351627.html

If this news of an amnesty is accurate, then I think Abhisit deserves kudos for offering the Red Shirts a compromise package that they can accept subject to further clarification.

I doubt the amnesty will cover black-hooded militia responsible for shootings or bombings.

If they accept Abhisit's compromise, the Red Shirts will have succeeded through civil disobedience in making redress of their grievances a national priority and accelerated elections by 6 months. They can declare victory and use the momentum generated to reshape Parliament through the ballot box. IMO they ought to accept the compromise subject to further clarification of the details.

"Civil disobedience" doesn't usually involve throwing hand grenades and shooting people.

If they accept Abhisit's compromise, the Red Shirts will have succeeded through civil disobedience in making redress of their grievances a national priority and accelerated elections by 6 months. They can declare victory and use the momentum generated to reshape Parliament through the ballot box. IMO they ought to accept the compromise subject to further clarification of the details.

Those declaring a “class war” focus their demands on a dissolution of parliament and returning power to the people, with seemingly little concern about what kinds of policies will follow.

- Kraisak Choonhavan, Deputy Leader, Democrat Party

In the final analysis it hardly matters what policy bones the paternal Democrat Party is willing to throw to Thailand's majority of rural and urban poor. They say the poor shouldn't be trusted with equal access to political power in Thai society. The Democrats ironically oppose democracy.

Shutting down community radio stations? If they are indeed coordinating a violent insurgency intent on overthrowing the government, why shouldn't the government ethically be able to shut them down? I am not sure if they are or they aren't, but I do know even in the US which has very good levels of freedom of speech and the press, a communication vehicle actively coordinating the violent overthrow of the US government would indeed be shut down, and legally so, even if millions of people supported the insurgency. Again, if they are guilty as charged, the better question is why is it taking so long to stop these violence inciting communication organs?

Here's some background supplied by the U.S. Dept. of State:

U.S.-THAI RELATIONS

On March 20, 1833, the United States and Thailand, then Siam, signed the Treaty of Amity and Commerce, the United States' first treaty with a country in Asia.

Since World War II, the United States and Thailand have developed close relations, as reflected in several bilateral treaties and by both countries' participation in UN multilateral activities and agreements. Thailand and the U.S. became treaty allies in 1954 (Manila Pact). The principal bilateral arrangement is the 1966 Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations, which facilitates U.S. and Thai companies' economic access to one another's markets... In June 2004, the United States and Thailand initiated negotiations on a free trade agreement which, when concluded, would reduce and eliminate barriers to trade and investment between the two countries. These negotiations were placed on hold following the dissolution of the Thai parliament in February 2006 and the subsequent coup in September.

The United States and Thailand are among the signatories of the 1954 Manila Pact of the former Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO). Article IV(1) of this treaty provides that, in the event of armed attack in the treaty area (which includes Thailand), each member would "act to meet the common danger in accordance with its constitutional processes."...Thailand continues to be a key security ally in Asia, along with Australia, Japan, the Philippines, and South Korea. In December 2003, Thailand was designated a Major Non-NATO Ally...

Thailand's stability and independence are important to the maintenance of peace in the region. Economic assistance has been extended in various fields, including rural development, health, family planning, education, and science and technology...

Thailand has received U.S. military equipment, essential supplies, training, and assistance in the construction and improvement of facilities and installations for much of the period since 1950; since then more Thai have been trained under the International Military Education and Training (IMET) program than any other country. Over recent decades, U.S. security assistance included military training programs carried out in the United States and elsewhere...As part of the mutual defense cooperation over the last three decades, Thailand and the United States have developed a vigorous joint military exercise program, which engages all the services of each nation and averages 40 joint exercises per year.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2814.htm

Also, the National Security Agency (NSA) operates a SIGINT antenna array in Khon Kaen to intercept Chinese military communications.

http://www.timesrecord.com/articles/2010/0...e7084903546.txt

Peace or war in Thailand?

By Eric Herter

Eric Herter was a military advisor in Vietnam, then in Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the Peace Corps in Thailand. In the 1990s he was bureau chief for Associated Press Television in Vietnam

Important national media outlets in the U.S. include: the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, Fox News, ABC News, MSNBC, and the Wall Street Journal.

... This is a mob of pissed off people overthrowing a government...