Thai Men Staring

[sbk]

Well phillip, we are not discussing latin males, we are not discussing women in the US. We are not discussing "happening to cross someone's line of vision". So, kindly keep your off topic comments to yourself.

Further such posts will be deleted.

[Sheryl]

The meaning of eye contact is very culture specific. It is normal -- in fact, important -- in Latin cultures. In many other cultures, however, it's different.

In North America, eye contact between strangers is acceptable only if very fleeting; sustained eye contact is seen as either sexually suggestive or hostile. Between people who know each other, it's OK, in fact expected.

In South Asia (India, Bangladesh, Pakistan) eye contact between men and women is strictly off limits and seen as highly sexual and provocative.

In Southeast Asia it is not quite as bad as it is in South Asia, but still not acceptable for more than a fleeting second.

And, while Asians are less inhibited about staring outright than Westerners (staring being not quite the same as eye contact), it is definitely not polite for a man under to stare at a woman....and you won't see Thai men doing it to Thai women.

Going back to eye contact, to ignore the cultural norms of wherever you are with respect to eye contact and insist on following your own is to invite trouble, offense and misunderstanding.

Philiphn, speaking as an American woman, you need to understand that the woman in Walmart was responding to what, in her cultural context, was sexually aggressive and offensive behavior from you. I would suggest you adapt yourself to the eye contact rules of the place you are in, just as I do when I'm in other countries, however inconvenient it may be.

You wouldn't insist on saying a curse word just because it had a benign meaning in your language, would you? So don't do the equivalent with body language.

P.S. In addition to offending women, you may also run into misunderstandings with gay men of an uncomfortable type if you apply Latin-style eye contact in the US.....

[MyPenRye]

If you see yourself as an attractive woman, this extra attention should be to your liking, as --from a male's perspective-- it is a way to make contact (flirting). I understand that you might not be used to it, but I am not too sure what is the difference between the quick, side stare and a direct stare. Some women would kill to have that kind of attention. I agree that this would be more acceptable to you if the guy is a hot movie star look -alike! Ugly and old guys are human beings too, just not as attractive and lovable, that's all! Ahhhh! Love! Or should I say ... infatuation!

[sbk]

Actually, MyPenRye, your comment is not only wrong but completely out of context compared to the original post. We are not talking about being looked at but are discussing persistent staring in a culture where it is not acceptable for a man to stare at a woman in such a way.

As for the idea that women like to be stared at, catcalled at etc etc. Well, most women find those who do so in an aggressive manner to be off putting and, in some cases, downright scary.

[endure]

Going back to eye contact, to ignore the cultural norms of wherever you are with respect to eye contact and insist on following your own is to invite trouble, offense and misunderstanding.

That ought to be written in 50 foot high letters at every entrance to every country on earth.

[November Rain]

Going back to eye contact, to ignore the cultural norms of wherever you are with respect to eye contact and insist on following your own is to invite trouble, offense and misunderstanding.

That ought to be written in 50 foot high letters at every entrance to every country on earth.

Agree completely, endure.

Only problem is, if we put a sign like that up at Suvarnabhumi, it would fall down a crack in the runway...

[Sheryl]

As for the idea that women like to be stared at, catcalled at etc etc. Well, most women find those who do so in an aggressive manner to be off putting and, in some cases, downright scary.

Exactly. And I do not think the men who do this could possibly believe it to be a form of flirting that might get a favorable response. Even the most clueless of men realizes that this kind of thing never gets a favorable response.

As women, we know what it is liked to be flirted with (whether nicely or clumsily) and we know what it is like to be harassed with hostile -- or at least callous -- intent, having had ample experience of both. This post is about the latter situation.

I am struck by how off the mark the recent spate of male posts have been, although several are clearly well intentioned. Obviously men have little idea of the kind of experiences women have, both here in LOS and in general.

[MyPenRye]

Actually, MyPenRye, your comment is not only wrong but completely out of context compared to the original post. We are not talking about being looked at but are discussing persistent staring in a culture where it is not acceptable for a man to stare at a woman in such a way.

As for the idea that women like to be stared at, catcalled at etc etc. Well, most women find those who do so in an aggressive manner to be off putting and, in some cases, downright scary.

Wrong? Completely? Ahahahaha! Who are you? The queen? God? Jeesh! Go easy with the hyperbolae, sbk! Methink you could be a bit more sensitive when you respond to people! But, I am a man and you probably hate men, so I take it with a grain of salt!

Anyway, who is we? Unless you think you are the queen, I am responding to the original poster, sbk.

The poster is asking if she is too sensitive or paranoid. I am responding.

So what whether or not it is acceptable for a man to stare at a woman in such a way? There is not one country I know that has laws against that. Of course, going to Afghanistan might resolve that issue. Anyway, culture evolves. Men change. We have eyes and we are allowed to use them. And before we go for the "kill" (I am sure that with some there is a lot of killing going on there*), we like to know what are our chances. In any case, I find women who show off their breast to be totally inappropriate, especially in front of children, and many do. However, I do understand that this is the way they advertise themselves and attract men (and then tells us that's the only think we look at). I wish they could advertise their emotional or intellectual IQs, but evolution has not gone that far yet. I cannot wait because it sucks the way things are. Maybe it is that these guys have never seen unattractive ladies like that, or maybe it is that what ladies wear is totally ugly, does not fit them, reveals way too much,... Would you walk with a Rolex in the middle of Bogota notion?

The bottom line is I (men) get stared at too by ... men and they don't make a big deal out of it because they don't see any maliciousness into it. And, by the way, in a few years, women who complain about men staring will complain about not being stared at at all!

Anyway, all of this makes me think of this neat little video: Ah, l'amour !

* Kill as women killing men, metaphorically speaking, of course! Jeesh!

Edited March 30, 2007 by MyPenRye

[sbk]

Just curious MyPenRye, where do you live and how long have you lived in Thailand? The Thai culture I am aware of, after 18 years of living here, does not find it acceptable for men to stare long and hard at a woman. It is not considered flirting. And no Thai woman I know of would tolerate it.

And sir, I don't hate men, I've been happily married for 17 years. What I do dislike is a man telling me what I should and should not appreciate as a woman. Until you can live life as a woman you have no clue what it is like, OK?

[BangnaBound]

My wife has complained about this to me several times. She is Thai, and as lived in the west for several years, and now that we are back in Thailand, she really notices the difference.

Thai men do the same thing to her. Her observation was that western guys look at girls to, but where at least more subtle about it, and made the effort to control themselves.

An example she gave was the ware house guys where she now works. She was in the warehouse talking to one of the guys and the warehouse supervisor. She was wearing a V-neck shirt, but nothing particularly revealing. During the several minute conversation, the warehouse guy was just a few feet with his head tilled down staring at her chest, even when he was responding to her questions. He did this in front of his supervisor, who just acted normally as if nothing was unusual. She described it as if his had absolutely no control over his own behavior.

Then she gave the example of the time one of her customers came for a factory visits. The customer was a tall blond Swedish woman in her early 40’s. She was in good shape, and wearing a halter top. As my wife described it, all the men in the factory (include the warehouse supervisor in the previous example), were unable to function properly. She said they were like a bunch of monkeys.

So this doesn’t just happen to farang women, it happens to Thai women too, but you probably will get more of it.

[MyPenRye]

Just curious MyPenRye, where do you live and how long have you lived in Thailand? The Thai culture I am aware of, after 18 years of living here, does not find it acceptable for men to stare long and hard at a woman. It is not considered flirting. And no Thai woman I know of would tolerate it.

And sir, I don't hate men, I've been happily married for 17 years. What I do dislike is a man telling me what I should and should not appreciate as a woman. Until you can live life as a woman you have no clue what it is like, OK?

Ahahahah! Tolerate it! You hit on the nail there, lady! And, what are they going to do? Call the Thai police? YOU women really think you can get it both ways. Dress like arabs and there won't be a chance that will happen.

I am not dismissing that this is an odd behaviour for Thai men (Asian men), but this could be explained in many ways. Maybe they are bored. Like I said, they do this for guys too. In any case, I have expressed my point of view.

In view of what I said, number of years in Thailand is irrelevant here. You are trying to interpret Thai men behaviour and you are neither a man or Thai.

I rest my case.

[MyPenRye]

Just curious MyPenRye, where do you live and how long have you lived in Thailand? The Thai culture I am aware of, after 18 years of living here, does not find it acceptable for men to stare long and hard at a woman. It is not considered flirting. And no Thai woman I know of would tolerate it.

And sir, I don't hate men, I've been happily married for 17 years. What I do dislike is a man telling me what I should and should not appreciate as a woman. Until you can live life as a woman you have no clue what it is like, OK?

Exactly! But, you are telling Thai men what they should or should not appreciate! Until you are a man, you have no clue what it is like to live as one. OK? Sounds familiar!

I rest my case!

Ahahahah! Tolerate it! You hit on the nail there, lady! Men (Thai or not) tolerate women's (Thai or not) constant strutting too. Men are constantly bombarded by sexual images day in and day out, but --of course-- have to show restraint at all time, unless one woman wants some attention that day. I wonder how women would think if we were to show of our stuff constantly? I wonder how poor people would feel if others were shwing off their money, their expensive cars,...? I still think that this lady could look at it in a positive way. I am not dismissing that this is an odd behaviour for Thai men (Asian men), but this could be explained in many ways. Maybe they are bored. Like I said, they do this for guys too. Maybe they like what they see. Maybe they don't. In any case, I have expressed my point of view. Read it again!

In view of what I said, number of years in Thailand is irrelevant here. Even though this is not part of Thai culture, men change. Watching TV and how farang men acts do have an effect on some. Cultures change. Beside, you are trying to interpret Thai men behaviour, but you are neither a man or Thai, as far as I know.

I rest my case.

I am glad to hear that you SAY that you don't hate men. It sounds though you would prefer men to do as you wish or as Thai women wish or else. Like I said, I would rather not have women showing their breasts off, but a lot of them do. Sometimes, you have to accept things as they are.

I am sure it is extremely hard to be a woman. But, most women do NOT get injured or die while working. I wonder how many Thai men die because of the pesticide he sprays, because of the asbestos he breaths in, because he gets killed by a jealous man/woman who hires a hitman, because he gets killed as a policeman, firefighter, soldier, miner, farmer, builder. It is true that there is no chance he will die of a pregnancy. It is, however, safe to say that things are not as good as they appear to be, if one looks objectively at things. In any case, this is not the topic.

If you were to go easy with the "you" statements, but acknowledge more someone else's point of view, I think conversations would be a bit more postive.

Peace.

Edited March 30, 2007 by MyPenRye

[MyPenRye]

Sorry about the two posts. Editing time had elapsed, I guess.

The last one is the most complete one.

[sbk]

Never mind. Neither post has anything new to say.

I am not going to get into an argument with you about your appalling lack of understanding of being female, so lets just leave it at that, shall we? And I do use the word "you" to mean you specifically since you are the only one who managed to bring up the point that women enjoy being leered at or stared at. Please look up the dictionary definition of " staring" before posting again, thanks.

Number of years in Thailand certainly does have bearing as I have far more experience of what is and isn't acceptable behavior than someone living in Canada. And if you had bothered to read my original post about what Thai women would do, I've already answered that question.

And just for your edification, my husband is Thai and when asked what his opinion of a Thai man staring in such a way is, he said, he would get very upset if someone stared at his wife, sister, cousin etc in that way and would most likely go ask him what his problem was. He also stated that it is not acceptable behavior for a Thai man.

So, unless you, as a farang man, are also going to negate my Thai husband's opinion of male behavior in his own country, I suggest you keep your peace

[MyPenRye]

Never mind. Neither post has anything new to say.

I am not going to get into an argument with you about your appalling lack of understanding of being female, so lets just leave it at that, shall we? And I do use the word "you" to mean you specifically since you are the only one who managed to bring up the point that women enjoy being leered at or stared at. Please look up the dictionary definition of " staring" before posting again, thanks.

Number of years in Thailand certainly does have bearing as I have far more experience of what is and isn't acceptable behavior than someone living in Canada. And if you had bothered to read my original post about what Thai women would do, I've already answered that question.

And just for your edification, my husband is Thai and when asked what his opinion of a Thai man staring in such a way is, he said, he would get very upset if someone stared at his wife, sister, cousin etc in that way and would most likely go ask him what his problem was. He also stated that it is not acceptable behavior for a Thai man.

So, unless you, as a farang man, are also going to negate my Thai husband's opinion of male behavior in his own country, I suggest you keep your peace

You can shout and scream all you want, lady, I caught you at least twice with an illogical statement. Draw the conclusions, ... if you can!

It sounds as you want to win the argument no matter what because it does not appear you read or understood what I wrote.

Your arguments make sense only as far as they relate that this did not used to happen. But, guess what? It is happening now! So, I provided you with an explanation. Live with it! What are you going to do about it, take pictures of the guys and tell the police? Tell your husband? Hire a hitman?

And, by the way, rules and customs do change over time. Women did not used to be allowed to vote. I bet you are not opposed to that change.

Thai men can do whatever they want with their breath and eyes. Do you like Singapore?

Look! If you want to keep your eyes in your pocket (or look hypocritically), fine! Guess what? Some of us like to be stared at and like to stare! Live with it!

[changhighlily]

Think yourself lucky that you are being stared at. It should be in a way a compliment. When you are an old boiler you will know what I mean. In the meantime enjoy

[Sheryl]

Think yourself lucky that you are being stared at. It should be in a way a compliment. When you are an old boiler you will know what I mean. In the meantime enjoy

Despite your avatar I doubt you are female. Women do not find this type of staring (prolonged and rather hostile leering) to be a compliment at all, nor is it intended to be. Clearly the men reading this do not know what it is we are talking about....understandable since it is not something that ever happens to them. We are NOT talking about the kind of stares you receive, guys. Nor are we talking about glances, admiring or otherwise.

At 54 I assume I qualify in your terms as an "old boiler". I still get these stares but indeed much less often than when I was younger. I did not "enjoy" it when I was young and far from missing it, I count it as a blessing to get less of it now...and will be delighted when I finally get none at all (delighted as to the absence of the stares and leers, that is...not so delighted with other aspects of being old!)

Anyway...sbk, I think it's time to either close or reclaim this thread. My vote would be for the former. I think women readers have already provided pretty much all the insight and advise possible and from here on it's just men misunderstanding the topic....or hijacking the thread to propound their own issues with women.

[alaina]

I don't think the looks the OP is talking about is the same as a simple look in her direction. It's an entirely different thing for a man to look at a woman, appreciating how she looks, and a man who is doing something intimidating to a woman. There are many different nonverbal messages that are interpreted differently, and living in a different culture makes it confusing to figure out if they are being interpreted correcly.

It's not an attack against men to wonder what to do in this situation. It's a concern for a woman's safety. I don't think there is a right answer to the OP, except to follow your instincts, that is very important. Maybe have a Thai man you know talk to the guys if they are in your neighborhood.

I didn't follow my instincts once, when I was new to Bangkok and still in the honeymoon stage. A tuk-tuk driver was leering at me and I needed to get home. I figured that it was my imagination, and took a ride home anyways. He continued to leer at me at every red light. I finally wised up and got out a ways from my home and just paid him. He did try to grab me once I was out; I put 1155 in my phone, showed that to him and ran away. I was lucky that nothing more happened, and I almost never take tuk-tuks now.

And before you even ask, I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

Sometimes a leer is a sign that someone will become aggressive, and it is not unreasonable that a woman will interpret it that way. This look is not a glance, or being checked out, it is entirely different. It's too bad that there are bad guys out there who make women have to think that their safety in in jeopardy, but there are. And yes, a few guys that do not have any intension of hurting a woman may be misinterpreted by how they look at a woman. But if a woman feels threatened, should she worry about her own safety or possibly hurting someone's feelings?

[kratindaeng]

just smile back and say sawasdee ka! Watch em smile!

KD

Responding to the OP

Edited March 31, 2007 by kratindaeng

[alaina]

Okay, how about a quick google to explain:

This is being checked out. A friendly hello would probably be harmless.

The safe bet would be that a friendly hello while being looked at in this manner would end up meaning more than hello. Go for it if that's what you want.

[kratindaeng]

Okay, how about a quick google to explain:

This is being checked out. A friendly hello would probably be harmless.

The safe bet would be that a friendly hello while being looked at in this manner would end up meaning more than hello. Go for it if that's what you want.

55555! nice one!

I do miss the lovely parks in England!?

Edited March 31, 2007 by kratindaeng

[November Rain]

A picture says a thousand words, alaina. Excellent choice! I was about to correct KD & say saying "Hello" to these guys wouldn't be a very good idea, but you expressed it in pics far better than I could in words.

As for changhighlilly, if she is a woman, well, words fail me!

Edit - typo

Edited March 31, 2007 by November Rain

[dingue2rep]

Think yourself lucky that you are being stared at. It should be in a way a compliment. When you are an old boiler you will know what I mean. In the meantime enjoy

Despite your avatar I doubt you are female. Women do not find this type of staring (prolonged and rather hostile leering) to be a compliment at all, nor is it intended to be. Clearly the men reading this do not know what it is we are talking about....understandable since it is not something that ever happens to them. We are NOT talking about the kind of stares you receive, guys. Nor are we talking about glances, admiring or otherwise.

At 54 I assume I qualify in your terms as an "old boiler". I still get these stares but indeed much less often than when I was younger. I did not "enjoy" it when I was young and far from missing it, I count it as a blessing to get less of it now...and will be delighted when I finally get none at all (delighted as to the absence of the stares and leers, that is...not so delighted with other aspects of being old!)

Anyway...sbk, I think it's time to either close or reclaim this thread. My vote would be for the former. I think women readers have already provided pretty much all the insight and advise possible and from here on it's just men misunderstanding the topic....or hijacking the thread to propound their own issues with women.

Please don't close the thread just yet...

I adore the females of our species, and I try not to stare. I admit I get a good look in nearly everytime ladies! Most times you wouldn't even notice and I am never disappointed as I always find something beautiful in every woman I have looked at (sheer appreciation)!

Having said that, I hate men who STARE (there is a difference!). I know what you ladies are talking about. And I know the LOOK. It makes me angry when I see guys (Thai or Farang) staring at my sisters, wife or daughters (in no particular order of preference). They sometimes got to hold me back because I just go crazy! And then I accused of being too overprotective!

Hey, criticize me as much as you want, but it's tough being a guy too! Guys please don't get uptight with me now.

[KhunMarco]

lol, the ugly guy (just a coincidence he's not as handsome as the first one, right? ) is just staring at an apple pie on a pic-nic table .

Jokes aside , I think we can translate this look to the threatening look we men receive in certain occasions from other men. Not a funny experience eh?

I can truly understand, when I was a child my mum was a very good looking woman and I remember vividly guys staring or even yelling nasty comments, boy I was pissed off.

Yes you can take a look but staring is a whole different story, it's obviously an intimidation .Remember that subtlety is key.

Who says men can't be pigs and gentlemen at the same time?

[moxhan]

As long as the situation is not a threatening one, you can simply ignore it and tell yourself "I'm glad I'm attractive enough for others to pay attention to!"

Relax!... TIT (This Is Thailand)

[Bottlerocket]

Yep, they're staring at you trying to size you up on several levels: looking at your body, thinking about how nasty you are in bed, wondering if you're really a human being like they are, admiring your white skin, etc. They don't give a rat's behind if you don't like them staring at you because they could care less what a woman thinks. If you stare back at them and give them a dirty look they might chase you down the road and cut your arm off.

[DirkGently]

Thais stare. We see it as rude, they do not. Simple.

On my wife's first trip to the UK I had to remind her that people do not take kindly to being stared at.

Other Thais do it to her when we are off the well worn track and she speaks English to me.

There was a guy on this forum complaing about "racism" because he was stared at. He was real tool who described how he stared back.

Do as I do. I look surprised when I catch them. They either look away or grin. Either way the situation has been diffused.

What the hel_l! Maybe you looked loose and easy to them.

[mikethevigoman]

Perhaps you should return to whence you came!

Having said that. I have noticed that if I only look straight ahead at where I am going, and a european woman happens to cross my line of vision, she is then offended. I find that they are then often rude and offensive. <deleted>, am I supposed to constatntly look away if they cross my line of sight. Also, if you want to wear clothes that show all what you got, then you should expect more people to take a good look.

I was looking an a european woman dressed in miniskirt and a low top with about a size 38dd bust walking down walking st,( my tongue was in,just a normal look ) when she sees me looking she screams at me " what the <deleted> are you looking at,im not one of these whores " ,i replied " just as well youd never get a customer with that attitude " ,but there was more to this than met the eye, turns out her english boyfriend had took her to a go-go and suggested a threesome and she stormed out and saw me looking !

,isnt it called shooting the piano player !. We all look at the ladies ( well i do ) and in most cases of men looking at women its all harmless, id say whoever looks at you as long as its only looking then ignore it, dont take it too much to heart, the thais are generally a shy lot and ill bet if you went up to most of these thai men they would run a mile ( through being scared of being confronted ) its almost like they imagine we cant see them dont you think ,.id be more concerned if they didnt look at all !

Edited April 15, 2007 by mikethevigoman

[mikethevigoman]

Perhaps you should return to whence you came!

Having said that. I have noticed that if I only look straight ahead at where I am going, and a european woman happens to cross my line of vision, she is then offended. I find that they are then often rude and offensive. <deleted>, am I supposed to constatntly look away if they cross my line of sight. Also, if you want to wear clothes that show all what you got, then you should expect more people to take a good look.

I was looking at a european woman dressed in miniskirt and a low top with about a size 38dd bust walking down walking st,( my tongue was in,just a normal look ) when she sees me looking she screams at me " what the <deleted> are you looking at,im not one of these whores " ,i replied " just as well youd never get a customer with that attitude " ,but there was more to this than met the eye, turns out her english boyfriend had took her to a go-go and suggested a threesome and she stormed out and saw me looking ! ,isnt it called shooting the piano player !.

[mikethevigoman]

I'm a male and it happens to me often too (both men and women staring or even turning their head), especially when I'm wearing sunglasses (maybe they think I'm looking elsewhere). not to mention that time I was in BKK and an elderly lady touched my arm and said "big big falang" rofl.

I can imagine it's not funny for a lady though, but remember, one day nobody will look at you anymore (in a hundred years obviously), so..carpe diem and thank mum and dad for the good work.

Hi, my names mike and im an alchoholic !, OH sorry, wrong reply,. im also a MAN, when i first moved to canada i was looking at a guy ( no im not gay ) and he came over to me and said " hi guy do i know you from somewhere " ( and no he wasnt gay ) ,ended up having

a beer with him, .Seems coming from england we are all paranoid that if someone is looking at us and we say something it will end up in a fight,. well in all my time in thailand ive never felt that, say hello with a smile, it works wonders,.