Germany's coronavirus reproduction rate jumps, indicating rising contagion

[Logosone]

[welovesundaysatspace]

29 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

I didnt realise that some people are naturally immune to Covid 19

I though Covid was like HIV and the flu where everyone could catch it 

Learn something new everyday

Even for HIV some people are immune to it. 

[CLS]

19 minutes ago, Logosone said:

You're confusing SARS Cov2 with Covid 19. The latter is the disesase. The former is the virus.

 

You're also confusing what immunity means. Immunity means the ability of an organism to resist a particular illness by the action of specific antibodies or other immune responses. 

 

It does not mean immunity to the virus itself, but to the illness. Whilst it is certainly possible that some people can not catch the virus, there is no evidence on that and we should assume that everyone can catch it. However, whilst everyone can catch it some people's T-Cell or other immune response is so good they don't actually get the illness, Covid 19.

 

Hope that's clear.

Right, especially kids under 10.

Because their immune system is not yet developed, they fight every intruder.

[johnpetersen]

3 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Please show one real report, where the doctors and scientists examining it confirm that it is a real second infection, and not an issue with the unreliable tests and / or a relapse. I know the headlines of the journalists often suggest a second infection, but the doctors examining the case do not.

You're citing a quote I posted in my reply. It came from M.I.T. Technology Review. Take it up with them.

[johnpetersen]

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

This probably has more to do with the difficulty of implementing thorough testing in gigantic territory like the US, so that once a testing focus is established the figures start to go up in that area.

 

 

 

False. As has been widely reported the rate of persons currently infected with the virus has been rising in Texas. As it has been rising in many other states including Florida and Arizona.

[johnpetersen]

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

Yes, absolutely. One million operations were cancelled in Germany. See the figures for cancer patients here:

https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article208557665/Wegen-Corona-In-Deutschland-wurden-908-000-OPs-aufgeschoben.html

 

52,000 cancer related operations were cancelled in Germany.

 

Nonsense. They weren't prohibited. Doctors made the decision that the risks to the patients of getting operated on outweighed the benefits. Generally speaking the older you are, the more likely you are to need surgery. This is especially true for cancer which disproportionately affects the elderly. So these are people whose immune systems are already weaker. Not only are hospitals dangerous places for post-operative patients during a pandemic, but convalescent care centers, where patients are transferred to when they no longer need such intensive care, have proven to be dangerous places too. 

So some operations have been postponed because there is a pandemic. But not because such operations are prohibited. If that were the case, there would be virtually none taking place. But in fact, the majority of operations were performed.

Edited June 23, 2020 by johnpetersen

[Logosone]

13 minutes ago, CLS said:

Right, especially kids under 10.

Because their immune system is not yet developed, they fight every intruder.

That's what they say, the issue of kids and this virus is very complex and interesting.

[johnpetersen]

 

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Yes, Thais are Supermen. They are genetically superior to all of us, especially in their immune system response.

 

That is why Thailand has virtually no cases and deaths from Covid 19.

 

Not because they don't test a lot. But because they're naturally strong supermen with a genetically superior immune response.

 

Don't believe everything Yinn posts!!!!

Like the Japanese, the virtually all Thais in public spaces wear masks and because of their culture refrain from physical contact. We know from the hospitalization rate in Japan that the rate of covid infections are very low. The same is true of Thailand.

[Tarteso]

Germany's coronavirus reproduction rate jumps, indicating rising contagion

 

Same in Spain, and they are opening borders,  let’s see 

[Letseng]

On 6/22/2020 at 1:21 AM, tribalfusion001 said:

The shape of things to come with local lockdowns in Europe.

There in Germany problem is the same like in Singapore = dormitories, crowded workplace. Cluster pushes up R factor country wide although it is only one location. 

[Letseng]

1 hour ago, CLS said:

Right, especially kids under 10.

Because their immune system is not yet developed, they fight every intruder.

And some kids are an exception.

[yuyiinthesky]

3 hours ago, johnpetersen said:

You're citing a quote I posted in my reply. It came from M.I.T. Technology Review. Take it up with them.

I take this as a confirmation that you do not know of any, and that there are none. Thanks.

[yuyiinthesky]

4 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

Are there some people that have natural  immunity from Covid 19 ?

I recall Yinn stating that Thais are strong which makes Thais immune to the virus

Is that true ?

That was not what you said, and to which I replied, but:

 

Quote

That is correct, there is no immunity to the virus .

Some people contract the virus and show no symptoms , but, that doesnt make them immune from catching it

And that's blatantly wrong.

[yuyiinthesky]

4 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

I didnt realise that some people are naturally immune to Covid 19

I though Covid was like HIV and the flu where everyone could catch it 

Learn something new everyday

You might want to have a look at the Heinsberg study of Professor Streeck. He is professor for virology and the director of the Institute of virology and HIV Research at the University Bonn, so he knows quite well what he's talking about. 

Look at the parts where they noticed that even in families / households, where one member was infected, the infection did not spread to all members, and often not even a second member of the family got infected.

Looking for an explanation he sees a kind of base immunity in many people. And even Professor Drosten, the expert the German government is mainly listening to, talks about such a base immunity.

This is not yet really understood, but clearly observed.

It also hints as to why in other areas, including Sweden, where antibody tests where made, the results had been lower than expected.

If you can understand German, there are plenty of interviews and reports online, but also in English you'll find it.

Another study which might explain where such a base immunity might come from:
https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30610-3.pdf

Here just the last paragraph of the summary:
 

Quote

Importantly, we detected SARS-CoV-2-reactive CD4+ T cells in ~40%–60% of unexposed individuals, suggesting cross- reactive T cell recognition between circulating ‘‘common cold’’ coronaviruses and SARS-CoV-2.

To say this in easier words: The immune system of 40-60% of people, which were not exposed to SARS-CoV-2 yet, already reacts on SARS-CoV-2. And that because of the similarity to the ‘‘common cold’’ coronaviruses, which trained the immune system.

Of course it is not yet known how strong this will protect, and it might also depend on the amount of viruses the person gets exposed to, but you can safely expect that there is a significant reaction.

These facts are unfortunately ignored by many journalists, which prefer to engage in scaremongering. Nevertheless they are facts and effects slowing down SARS-CoV-2, despite having not infected yet a majority of the population.

Edited June 23, 2020 by yuyiinthesky

[Senior Player]

On 6/22/2020 at 4:21 PM, Krataiboy said:

Tegnell has freely admitted too little was done to protect Sweden's care home residents, who constitute (if I recall rightly) nearly half of all the country's COVID fatalities.

 

The UK's record in this regard is arguably even worse, since the government created second waves of the epidemic in residential and nursing homes via a deliberate policy of returning elderly residents from hospital while still infected.

 

British care homes routinely, presumably under pressure from the government, persuaded their residents to sign "Do not resuscitate" forms, with a predictable outcome in terms of enhancing the "Covid-related" mortality figures.

And this is how fake news is spread. On 17 March, it was NHS England and NHS Improvement that wrote to trusts telling them to “expand critical care capacity to the maximum” by freeing up beds. This was to ensure that the NHS had the capacity it needed to treat Covid-19 patients in the coming weeks and months. NHS Providers, which is the association of trusts and foundation trusts in England, said: “NHS England and Improvement made this decision having just witnessed the health and care system in Northern Italy being overwhelmed by Covid-19 demand.” Two days later, the Department for Health and Social Care (DHSC) and NHS England and Improvement published the discharge requirements in detail. 

 

So to claim that it was the British government that tossed them out on their ear to infect nursing homes is factually incorrect. It was NHS England and NHS Providers and a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in Department for Health that made that decision for England. As for Scotland and Wales, who had a far worse and shocking toll of deaths in care homes, they have their very own NHS Wales and NHS Scotland governed separately from England. So Scotland and Wales made their own health decisions independently. 

 

If there's any criticism to be had, then it should be laid squarely at the behemoth feet of the NHS. The testing was another centralized debacle at the hands of the Department for Health, only alleviated when the government finally stepped in, took it away and began farming it out to the private sector. Germany had no such problem as their healthcare system is totally private and financed by insurance contributions. There's no public middlemen or women to slow it down, waste money and cause red tape stoppage like in the NHS. 

 

I also don't think this is the right time to start measuring which countries have performed better or worse. The pandemic isn't over yet. Yes, it's mutating, but as China is currently finding out, it's still probably got a lot further to go before we eventually see the back of it. If their claims are correct, then they now have a more contagious and deadly strain. Or it could just be a symptom of having locked down too much and now those that didn't catch it before are now more susceptible the second time round. Don't ask me, I don't know as I wouldn't trust anything coming out of China with regards to facts and figures. 

[geriatrickid]

11 hours ago, Logosone said:

You have been consistently wrong, in a rambling, shrill, insulting and persistent manner, indeed on this forum there is a post where I take apart five of your most obvious false claims. Chief of those of course was your rather firm claim that there is no immunity to SARS Cov-2. A completely false claim, as we have seen.

 

I remember pointing this out at the time, weeks ago already.

 

"Prof Jon Cohen, emeritus professor of infectious diseases at Brighton and Sussex Medical School, said:  “However, it is very likely, based on other viral infections, that yes, once a person has had the infection they will generally be immune and won’t get it again. There will always be the odd exception, but that is certainly a reasonable expectation.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/16/the-big-question-over-coronavirus-can-a-person-get-it-twice

 

And waddayaknow, turns out Professor Cohen was right and you were wrong. 

 

I'm not going to bother to regurgitate all your other pseudo-medical pronouncements that were clearly wrong, we both know you claimed that a vaccine for SARS Cov-2 would be impossible because there was no vaccine for HIV, this despite the fact that the nature of the HIV virus was fantastically different, as a stealth virus, to SARS Cov2. 

 

So I think when it comes to claims about being better educated than others on this forum you best cloak yourself in silence, as behooves someone who was repeatedly shown to post nothing but clearly false statements. 

You have stated that I " claimed there could be no vaccine for SARS Cov 2, because there was none for HIV, which as a stealth virus is completely different to SARS Cov 2."

 

You have been asked to provide this reference and you have not provided that reference.

I am giving you  another opportunity to back this up with the specific reference. Do not go off on a tangent about something else. 

 

You have a habit of making hysterical claims and then trying to attribute them to other people when they are pointed out as incorrect.  You say I make false statements. Fine. Here's your chance, to show us all where I made this claim. Humor us.

[from the home of CC]

16 hours ago, sawadee1947 said:

unless we have a Vaccine????

yes, a game changer, but it will be a medical miracle to whip up one so fast that works first time through.

[Krataiboy]

14 hours ago, Senior Player said:

And this is how fake news is spread. On 17 March, it was NHS England and NHS Improvement that wrote to trusts telling them to “expand critical care capacity to the maximum” by freeing up beds. This was to ensure that the NHS had the capacity it needed to treat Covid-19 patients in the coming weeks and months. NHS Providers, which is the association of trusts and foundation trusts in England, said: “NHS England and Improvement made this decision having just witnessed the health and care system in Northern Italy being overwhelmed by Covid-19 demand.” Two days later, the Department for Health and Social Care (DHSC) and NHS England and Improvement published the discharge requirements in detail. 

 

So to claim that it was the British government that tossed them out on their ear to infect nursing homes is factually incorrect. It was NHS England and NHS Providers and a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in Department for Health that made that decision for England. As for Scotland and Wales, who had a far worse and shocking toll of deaths in care homes, they have their very own NHS Wales and NHS Scotland governed separately from England. So Scotland and Wales made their own health decisions independently. 

 

If there's any criticism to be had, then it should be laid squarely at the behemoth feet of the NHS. The testing was another centralized debacle at the hands of the Department for Health, only alleviated when the government finally stepped in, took it away and began farming it out to the private sector. Germany had no such problem as their healthcare system is totally private and financed by insurance contributions. There's no public middlemen or women to slow it down, waste money and cause red tape stoppage like in the NHS. 

 

I also don't think this is the right time to start measuring which countries have performed better or worse. The pandemic isn't over yet. Yes, it's mutating, but as China is currently finding out, it's still probably got a lot further to go before we eventually see the back of it. If their claims are correct, then they now have a more contagious and deadly strain. Or it could just be a symptom of having locked down too much and now those that didn't catch it before are now more susceptible the second time round. Don't ask me, I don't know as I wouldn't trust anything coming out of China with regards to facts and figures. 

Are you seriously implying the UK government didn't know what the NHS bureaucrats were up to? If so, Health Secretary Matt Hancock must be the ultimate spare pr-ck at the wedding.

 

Bob and weave as they and you might, the the Johnson administration has overall responsibility for the UK's pandemic strategy. The buck for the catastrophic care homes cull stops with Boris.

[geriatrickid]

19 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

You have stated that I " claimed there could be no vaccine for SARS Cov 2, because there was none for HIV, which as a stealth virus is completely different to SARS Cov 2."

 

You have been asked to provide this reference and you have not provided that reference.

I am giving you  another opportunity to back this up with the specific reference. Do not go off on a tangent about something else. 

 

You have a habit of making hysterical claims and then trying to attribute them to other people when they are pointed out as incorrect.  You say I make false statements. Fine. Here's your chance, to show us all where I made this claim. Humor us.

Still no response. 

 

[johnpetersen]

7 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

Are you seriously implying the UK government didn't know what the NHS bureaucrats were up to? If so, Health Secretary Matt Hancock must be the ultimate spare pr-ck at the wedding.

 

Bob and weave as they and you might, the the Johnson administration has overall responsibility for the UK's pandemic strategy. The buck for the catastrophic care homes cull stops with Boris.

In fact, in 2019 ICU occupancy was at 90% or greater. Which should be an unacceptable level. So during the height of the pandemic, what choice did the NHS have?

[Krataiboy]

44 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

In fact, in 2019 ICU occupancy was at 90% or greater. Which should be an unacceptable level. So during the height of the pandemic, what choice did the NHS have?

The UK's official COVID states are notoriously unreliable, but it appears that something like four out of ten mortalities are among elderly care home residents, whom the government egregiously failed to protect - indeed, some would argue deliberately left exposed and undefended.

 

Had these elderly victims been adequately shielded, fewer of them would have ended up in NHS hospitals, hardly any of which appear to have been overstretched even at the height of the COVID outbreak. Sending them back to residential and nursing home while still infectious simply compounded the catastrophic care home cull for which the Tory administration must be held to account.

 

The policy of devoting the nation's public health facilities almost exclusively to victims of the virus has has also proved disastrous for thousands of people suffering from chronic progressive diseases such as cancer, heart problems and kidney disease, who have been deprived of life-extending hospital treatment.

 

As the true cost of the government's execrable pandemic policies becomes clearer, that "Protect the NHS" slogan mouthed by team Johnson will have an increasingly hollow ring.

 

[johnpetersen]

7 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

The UK's official COVID states are notoriously unreliable, but it appears that something like four out of ten mortalities are among elderly care home residents, whom the government egregiously failed to protect - indeed, some would argue deliberately left exposed and undefended.

 

Had these elderly victims been adequately shielded, fewer of them would have ended up in NHS hospitals, hardly any of which appear to have been overstretched even at the height of the COVID outbreak. Sending them back to residential and nursing home while still infectious simply compounded the catastrophic care home cull for which the Tory administration must be held to account.

 

The policy of devoting the nation's public health facilities almost exclusively to victims of the virus has has also proved disastrous for thousands of people suffering from chronic progressive diseases such as cancer, heart problems and kidney disease, who have been deprived of life-extending hospital treatment.

 

As the true cost of the government's execrable pandemic policies becomes clearer, that "Protect the NHS" slogan mouthed by team Johnson will have an increasingly hollow ring.

 

I don't know what you mean by "The policy of devoting the nation's public health facilities almost exclusively to victims of the virus has has also proved disastrous for thousands of people suffering from chronic progressive diseases such as cancer, heart problems and kidney disease, who have been deprived of life-extending hospital treatment."

It's the nature of a pandemic. If you have lots of people with a highly contagious disease needing to be hospitalized then it's going to be safer for those with weakened immune systems to stay away. What do you recommend hospitals do with seriously ill Covid patients? Turn away the critically ill in favor the chronically ill?

[yuyiinthesky]

3 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Still no response. 

 

Didn’t you want to explain your education?

 

And my political agenda?

 

Still not coming ????

[geriatrickid]

6 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Didn’t you want to explain your education?

 

And my political agenda?

 

Still not coming ????

Your friend  has insisted that I made a statement. I have asked him to support his claim. I am giving him an opportunity for him to either support  what he claims or to retract and to apologize for lying.

 

In respect to your question, it is a childish diversion. I will address your inquiry once the  first issue is addressed.

[Krataiboy]

17 hours ago, johnpetersen said:

I don't know what you mean by "The policy of devoting the nation's public health facilities almost exclusively to victims of the virus has has also proved disastrous for thousands of people suffering from chronic progressive diseases such as cancer, heart problems and kidney disease, who have been deprived of life-extending hospital treatment."

It's the nature of a pandemic. If you have lots of people with a highly contagious disease needing to be hospitalized then it's going to be safer for those with weakened immune systems to stay away. What do you recommend hospitals do with seriously ill Covid patients? Turn away the critically ill in favor the chronically ill?

But we didn't.  A fortune was lavished on constructing prefabricated emergency field hospitals which were never used. Nurses and medical orderlies made viral videos of themselves dancing around deserted corridors of hospitals waiting for a crisis that never happened. Meanwhile, patients desperate for treatment for other serious conditions died in their homes under lockdown.

[geriatrickid]

8 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

But we didn't.  A fortune was lavished on constructing prefabricated emergency field hospitals which were never used. Nurses and medical orderlies made viral videos of themselves dancing around deserted corridors of hospitals waiting for a crisis that never happened. Meanwhile, patients desperate for treatment for other serious conditions died in their homes under lockdown.

Your question is focused on the UK which is not related to the German topic;

 

1. You are complaining that patients "desperate for treatment for other serious conditions died in their homes under lockdown".

 

Do you have any verified data to support this allegation?  No one was denied urgent care and some emergency procedures did continue at designated facilities. However, you seem oblivious to the  fact that there is a SOP when a hospital is faced with the presence of a highly infectious contagion and when there is a  catastrophe. Non urgent care is to be minimized and personnel is to be  directed to the support of the  designated catastrophe.  Put Covid19 aside and consider the response when there is a c. difficile outbreak: All non urgent  invasive procedures are suspended, and wards are either emptied or subject to the  cold/hot designation. The Covid19 response was no different.

 

Are you aware that there is an ongoing shortage of medications and PPE? How exactly do you propose that non essential procedures be undertaken when there is not enough medication to support urgent care patients?  The amount of PPE consumed for the care of urgent care patients has meant that other activities cannot be undertaken. In plain language, if there is no protective equipment and inadequate sterilization capability, it is impossible to carry on as usual.

 

2. The lack of PPE is an underlying limiting factor and there is no way that any one country could have stockpiled enough for this catastrophe. Hospitals went through in a month what they have used in a year.  The PPE is needed because this is a highly infectious  disease. Are you aware that a reported 200+ healthcare personnel have died due to COVID19 infections? It is immoral to  demand that health care workers undertake their work without adequate PPE. It is wrong to put patients at risk when the  healthcare workers cannot  treat them safely. patients stayed away from  the urgent care facilities because they had legitimate concerns in respect to infection.

 

3. You complain about the initial excess capacity. That capacity would have been required  had the social distancing efforts failed. This is now being demonstrated in the USA where hospitals no longer have capacity. Arizona is at the start of a surge and its ICU beds are at close to 80% capacity. 73% of its hospital beds are occupied; with 14% of all regular beds occupied by Covid19 patients. When the rural/urban characteristics are taken into account, the  principal city hospital ICUs are in excess of 100% capacity

 

When a hospital  accepts an infectious disease case, it must create buffer space to prevent an outbreak in the facility. This buffer space takes away beds from other patients.

In effect, the Covid19 patients are starting to crash hospital systems in the USA, particularly in urban areas. 

 

You are  criticizing the UK because it was able to avoid what we are now seeing in some US states. In effect, you are angry at the success of the Covid19 response.

 

[yuyiinthesky]

On 6/25/2020 at 9:28 AM, geriatrickid said:

Your friend  has insisted that I made a statement. I have asked him to support his claim. I am giving him an opportunity for him to either support  what he claims or to retract and to apologize for lying.

 

In respect to your question, it is a childish diversion. I will address your inquiry once the  first issue is addressed.

I understand that you prefer not to talk about your superior education - it might not be that superior after all.

However you accused me of having a political agenda. Have at least the courtesy to explain it, what is it, my political agenda?

[yuyiinthesky]

11 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Your question is focused on the UK which is not related to the German topic;

 

1. You are complaining that patients "desperate for treatment for other serious conditions died in their homes under lockdown".

 

Do you have any verified data to support this allegation?  No one was denied urgent care and some emergency procedures did continue at designated facilities.

Although it was not me who made that statement you‘re replying to, let me call in an expert opinion on this question, talking about non-covid deaths due to lockdowns in the UK: Professor Karol Sikora, the Founding Dean and Professor of Medicine at the University of Buckingham Medical School and an ex-director of the WHO Cancer Programme, said in an interview with Unherd.com that he expects 50000 additional cancer deaths due to the lockdown for the UK alone. (Don‘t take my word, listen to Professor Sikora himself, the interview is on youtube and on the Unherd.com website).

 

50000 in the UK for cancer alone, that‘s a lot of collateral damage.

 

 

[johnpetersen]

20 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

But we didn't.  A fortune was lavished on constructing prefabricated emergency field hospitals which were never used. Nurses and medical orderlies made viral videos of themselves dancing around deserted corridors of hospitals waiting for a crisis that never happened. Meanwhile, patients desperate for treatment for other serious conditions died in their homes under lockdown.

Nightingale hospitals were built on the presumption of better safe than sorry. They were mainly for younger fitter people. The most serious cases were attended to in

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/do-many-nhs-nightingale-hospitals-remain-empty/

Really? Critically ill people who weren't suffering from Covid died because they were refused admittance to hospital?

[Krataiboy]

33 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Nightingale hospitals were built on the presumption of better safe than sorry. They were mainly for younger fitter people. The most serious cases were attended to in

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/do-many-nhs-nightingale-hospitals-remain-empty/

Really? Critically ill people who weren't suffering from Covid died because they were refused admittance to hospital?

Don't twist my words. I never said anyone was refused admittance to hospital.

 

One day we will learn the full, catastrophic impact of lockdowns on sick people too scared to leave their homes for treatment. Meanwhile. . . and there's plenty more out there if you care to look.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8207783/150-000-Brits-die-coronavirus-pandemic-domestic-violence-suicides.html

 

https://www.rt.com/uk/488829-covid-additional-deaths-mystery/