Retirement Extension

[Crossy]

OK, the big five-oh is rapidly approaching (I remember my dad being 30, I thought that was really ancient)

I don't anticipate giving up work just yet but 99% of my work is outside Thailand, I'm employed by a Hong Kong company.

Can I reduce visa hassles by getting a retirement extension using my overseas income (rather than a pension) as the funding source? I can easily exceed the 65000 per month requirement but I don't have (or anticipate having) 800k tied up in a local account.

I've been using multi non-o (married) visas but these seem to be getting less easy to obtain in the area and the extension requires a considerable waiting period (I can be required to jet off somewhere at a moments notice).

[briley]

Might depend upon your nationality but the UK consulate gives a letter based on any sort of income, and immigration accepts it.

[Medit8]

OK, the big five-oh is rapidly approaching (I remember my dad being 30, I thought that was really ancient)

I don't anticipate giving up work just yet but 99% of my work is outside Thailand, I'm employed by a Hong Kong company.

Can I reduce visa hassles by getting a retirement extension using my overseas income (rather than a pension) as the funding source? I can easily exceed the 65000 per month requirement but I don't have (or anticipate having) 800k tied up in a local account.

I've been using multi non-o (married) visas but these seem to be getting less easy to obtain in the area and the extension requires a considerable waiting period (I can be required to jet off somewhere at a moments notice).

Crossy,

I work in Hong Kong and go back to Thailand every 2 weeks. Married, 2 kids (almost anyway, wife is 6 months pregnant). I just get a Non-Imm O and a re-entry permit. Works just fine. No hassles and the income (40k) is obviously minor.

[Crossy]

I work in Hong Kong and go back to Thailand every 2 weeks. Married, 2 kids (almost anyway, wife is 6 months pregnant). I just get a Non-Imm O and a re-entry permit. Works just fine. No hassles and the income (40k) is obviously minor.

Agreed, my problem is that I cannot guarantee being in LoS during the renewal period each year, a retirement extension can be processed in one day (given the correct documentation).

To Briley, yep I'm a Brit

[astral]

I will watch the answers with interest.

I have raised this question with regard to MM2H in Malaysia

and the answer is a definite YES, must be pension.

So much for those of us who live off our investment income.

Congrats on the big 50.

I clocked up 60 a month ago, so you are still a baby in my book.

[briley]

I showed 3 months of rental income to the UK consulate. They gave me a letter saying I had shown income of £x per month. It did not mention the source, Pension or not pension.

Immigration have always accepted the letter although Thai immigration rules does say pension.

This seems to be an area where 'pension' is interpreted rather liberally. Luckily for me as I don't actually have a pension, the rental income is my 'pension'.

[Krub]

OK, the big five-oh is rapidly approaching (I remember my dad being 30, I thought that was really ancient)

I don't anticipate giving up work just yet but 99% of my work is outside Thailand, I'm employed by a Hong Kong company.

Can I reduce visa hassles by getting a retirement extension using my overseas income (rather than a pension) as the funding source? I can easily exceed the 65000 per month requirement but I don't have (or anticipate having) 800k tied up in a local account.

I've been using multi non-o (married) visas but these seem to be getting less easy to obtain in the area and the extension requires a considerable waiting period (I can be required to jet off somewhere at a moments notice).

I am employed in Japan but travel very often to LOS for work and mostly rest.

Over 50 and UK passport.

I have already 2 extensions on basis of 800k in thai bank as retired same day stamp with multi re-entry.

This year will go for the extension with letter from Embassy stating pension/income of XXXX baht

You need to be in Thailand for the extension but you have one month before expiry to plan your trip.

Good luck

[Maestro]

Immigration have always accepted the letter although Thai immigration rules does say pension.

The Immigration Bureau’s website is so hopelessly outdated that I did not even bother to go and check it now. What applies today is rule 7.21 of Thai Police Order 606/2549, which says “Proof of income, e.g., retirement pension, interest earnings or dividends, etc.”. In other words, it can be any type of income.

--

Maestro

[JimGant]

my problem is that I cannot guarantee being in LoS during the renewal period each year,

Possibly, at least with a plane ticket showing cause, the 30-days-prior-window for renewal could be stretched another month earlier, with fingers crossed. But, worst case, if you're out of the country at renewal time, you re-enter on a 30-day stamp, which you then pay 2000 baht to convert to a Non Imm O, then onto the retirement extension. Most examples of this I've seen here have all been same-day jobs, although in CM one chap was told, after getting his Non Imm O conversion, to come back in 60 days to apply for his extension. But, this certainly seems to have been an aberration. And except for an extra trip, no real harm done.

So, sounds like the "pension" question is a non issue. And, with all your retirement credentials in order, getting a Non Imm O in-country -- if necessary because of having to re-enter on a 30-day stamp -- should also be a non issue. The only issue I see is: welcome to arthritis ville.

[Jingthing]

I have a wrinkly question related to using other income for the retirement visa.

Would STOCK SALES work as well?

I currently live on investments, interest, dividends, and stock sales.

Would this scenario be within the Thai immigration boundaries?

Say, for example, that I sell 500K baht per year of stocks, and declare that to the US embassy as "income" to get a letter to lower my 800K requirement?

Now I am sure the US embassy would issue the letter because they accept anything you swear to, but I am not sure if this is a lie or not. If I sell 500K of stock, I realize 500K of cash flow, but under US tax code, only the profit amount on such a sale is a tax event. But US tax code and Thai immigration are not the same thing, so it seems to be a grey area. I don't want to lie to my embassy, but I am not convinced it is technically a lie.

Also, regarding Thai immigration, suppose they asked for supporting documentation of the letter. Now we seem to know that interest, dividends, and rental income is qualifying "income". Do you think Thai immigration would accept documentation of a stock sale as "income" (the gross amount of the sale)?

Oh, and regarding rental income, are people declaring the gross amount of their rents or only the PROFIT after expenses as income? Seems to me if they are declaring the gross amount, in principle, this is very similar to my idea of using stock sales.

Edited April 25, 2007 by Jingthing

[JimGant]

Would STOCK SALES work as well?

Sure. But if documentation is asked for, show the 1099-B, not the Schedule D. This would be kosher, since Immigration is really looking for your positive cash flow*, which is reflected in the 1099. A Schedule D, with "net income" shown, would not help your case -- and I'm sure the Immigration officer would not be interested in your concepts of 'cash flow,' 'basis' and 'accounting entities.'

* I say 'positive cash flow' vice 'income' because Immigration is only interested that you can support yourself while in Thailand. Thus, either showing 800k in the bank or 65k/mo "income." But do they really mean "income" strictly speaking? I don't think so, since drawing down an investment or estate, which isn't necessarily 'income,' seems akin to drawing down an 800k Thai bank account.

But, I wouldn't want to have this discussion with Immigration. So, I hope they don't become too 'support documentation' oriented.

[Jingthing]

Thanks for that feedback Jim.

Any comments on the ethics/risks of making this claim to the embassy (claiming the entire gross amount of stock sales as INCOME)? Is there something about the wording of the embassy document that would make this a lie?

[JimGant]

Any comments on the ethics/risks of making this claim to the embassy (claiming the entire gross amount of stock sales as INCOME)? Is there something about the wording of the embassy document that would make this a lie?

Look at what the US Embassy/Consulate is asking you:

"He/She also affirms that he/she receives an amount of US$ ______every month from the United States Govt. and/or other sources.....

Nothing about income, just cash flow. And I'm sure your heart would be found pure if your stock sales were only annually, and then pro-rated to cover the "every month" proviso.

Your covered.

[JAS21]

OK, the big five-oh is rapidly approaching (I remember my dad being 30, I thought that was really ancient)

I don't anticipate giving up work just yet but 99% of my work is outside Thailand, I'm employed by a Hong Kong company.

Can I reduce visa hassles by getting a retirement extension using my overseas income (rather than a pension) as the funding source? I can easily exceed the 65000 per month requirement but I don't have (or anticipate having) 800k tied up in a local account.

I've been using multi non-o (married) visas but these seem to be getting less easy to obtain in the area and the extension requires a considerable waiting period (I can be required to jet off somewhere at a moments notice).

I got my (pension) letter from the BE a few weeks ago. They asked me if I wanted my rental income included included..I said not necessary. My letter from them showed nett pension. They are very helpful...costs nothing to go and see them with your paperwork.

[Krub]

OK, the big five-oh is rapidly approaching (I remember my dad being 30, I thought that was really ancient)

I don't anticipate giving up work just yet but 99% of my work is outside Thailand, I'm employed by a Hong Kong company.

Can I reduce visa hassles by getting a retirement extension using my overseas income (rather than a pension) as the funding source? I can easily exceed the 65000 per month requirement but I don't have (or anticipate having) 800k tied up in a local account.

I've been using multi non-o (married) visas but these seem to be getting less easy to obtain in the area and the extension requires a considerable waiting period (I can be required to jet off somewhere at a moments notice).

I got my (pension) letter from the BE a few weeks ago. They asked me if I wanted my rental income included included..I said not necessary. My letter from them showed nett pension. They are very helpful...costs nothing to go and see them with your paperwork.

What is 'BE' ?

[ChiangMaiMike]

I'm coming up against it to with Aug. 20th renewal date... I'm U.S. citizen, lived here 3 years now on Retirement Visa. Now at 34.8 baht to the dollar that means $23,000 in Thai Bank for 3 months... ouch.

I also have no pension, live off investments... can show a 1099 from brokerage account with various dividends, interest, and capital gains for 2006 totaling $4,500. But same statement list "proceeds from sales" of $46,000... (they don't include the cost basis)...

It's obvious from my bank book that I've been spending around $12k/ year here. Topping off account to 800,000 just before necessary date, then usually buying the larger ticket items for the year and just leaving money here.

I also have no desire to tell any lies, but it chaps my butt to think of $23,000 sitting in Thai account for 3 months, drawing .75% interest... or even Fixed Account with a whopping 2.5% interest rate, which I'm not even sure is acceptable to the Thais.

Anyone have any actual experience with getting letter from U.S. Consulate in Chiang Mai and then showing up with say 400,000 in bank and letter from Consulate saying have 500,000 in 'income'?

Or is it all just speculation and 'depends on Immigration Officer' at this point?

thanks,

Mike

[wpcoe]

What is 'BE' ?

British Embassy?

[Krub]

I'm coming up against it to with Aug. 20th renewal date... I'm U.S. citizen, lived here 3 years now on Retirement Visa. Now at 34.8 baht to the dollar that means $23,000 in Thai Bank for 3 months... ouch.

I also have no pension, live off investments... can show a 1099 from brokerage account with various dividends, interest, and capital gains for 2006 totaling $4,500. But same statement list "proceeds from sales" of $46,000... (they don't include the cost basis)...

It's obvious from my bank book that I've been spending around $12k/ year here. Topping off account to 800,000 just before necessary date, then usually buying the larger ticket items for the year and just leaving money here.

I also have no desire to tell any lies, but it chaps my butt to think of $23,000 sitting in Thai account for 3 months, drawing .75% interest... or even Fixed Account with a whopping 2.5% interest rate, which I'm not even sure is acceptable to the Thais.

Anyone have any actual experience with getting letter from U.S. Consulate in Chiang Mai and then showing up with say 400,000 in bank and letter from Consulate saying have 500,000 in 'income'?

Or is it all just speculation and 'depends on Immigration Officer' at this point?

thanks,

Mike

The Embassy will provide you with the letter without evidence

The immigration might ask you for evidence of the 'income'

Some will go only with the income letter no money in bank, this is what I will be trying in September after 3 renewals with 800K

[ChiangMaiMike]

Well, maybe I'll give that a try. I've been a 'good boy' and have been transferring money to my bank account here and obviously gradually spending it down for the last several years.

I am assuming that the 'Worst Case Scenario' is they will tell me to put 800,000 into regular savings account (I now have 300k in Fixed Deposit) and come back in 3 months.

[lem]

OK, the big five-oh is rapidly approaching (I remember my dad being 30, I thought that was really ancient)

I don't anticipate giving up work just yet but 99% of my work is outside Thailand, I'm employed by a Hong Kong company.

Can I reduce visa hassles by getting a retirement extension using my overseas income (rather than a pension) as the funding source? I can easily exceed the 65000 per month requirement but I don't have (or anticipate having) 800k tied up in a local account.

I've been using multi non-o (married) visas but these seem to be getting less easy to obtain in the area and the extension requires a considerable waiting period (I can be required to jet off somewhere at a moments notice).

I got my (pension) letter from the BE a few weeks ago. They asked me if I wanted my rental income included included..I said not necessary. My letter from them showed nett pension. They are very helpful...costs nothing to go and see them with your paperwork.

What is 'BE' ?

[lem]

BE = Brit Emb I guess. In my case it was more useful to me for the BE to quote a gross income, which they did. I dont think Thai immig scrutinise the accompanying pension document to look for the difference between net and gross.

Lem

[Huw]

Would STOCK SALES work as well?

Sure. But if documentation is asked for, show the 1099-B, not the Schedule D. This would be kosher, since Immigration is really looking for your positive cash flow*, which is reflected in the 1099. A Schedule D, with "net income" shown, would not help your case -- and I'm sure the Immigration officer would not be interested in your concepts of 'cash flow,' 'basis' and 'accounting entities.'

* I say 'positive cash flow' vice 'income' because Immigration is only interested that you can support yourself while in Thailand. Thus, either showing 800k in the bank or 65k/mo "income." But do they really mean "income" strictly speaking? I don't think so, since drawing down an investment or estate, which isn't necessarily 'income,' seems akin to drawing down an 800k Thai bank account.

But, I wouldn't want to have this discussion with Immigration. So, I hope they don't become too 'support documentation' oriented.

So the regs say 65kpm income *or* 800k in da bank?

And if I swear to the Embassy that I collect 65kpm in rents they will issue a letter (just to be sure)?

[lopburi3]

The requirement is 65k per month, 800k deposit or a combination of the two. What is required at the Embassy varies from Embassy to Embassy. When presented at Immigration they may want to see supporting documentation for the figure in the letter or they may not.

[ProThaiExpat]

In prior posts, I identified the looseness of the U.S. Consulate form in Chiang Mai and concluded "income stream" was all that was necessary to qualify for the "pension" plus bank account approach to retirement extension, It seems by the posts in this thread that the UK approaches it in the same manner.

Jingthing: I am with you on ethics and doing the right thing.

In your case, I would set up an account with any institution that has a internet function that allows the set up of monthly payments or transfers from one account to another. Most banks have this feature.

Then set up a monthly transfer from your "stock sales proceeds" account to your "retirement" account, and bingo, you have proof of an income stream on a monthly basis to satisfy immigration if they ever start looking for documentation.

You might have difficulty setting up the original "stock sales proceeds" account and the "retirement" account from overseas, but once that is done, the rest is easy

It seems to me that if you already have a banking relationship in the U.S. or elsewhere, they may well accommodate you by fax transmission in the setting up of additional accounts.

ChiangmaiMike: You sound bright enough to come up with an account structure to support a annual income flow pro-rated to satisfy the monthly requirement, if not this year, certainly for the future.

For those who have variable income flows, the two account method suggested above would sure work and be ethically sound. One account not shown to immigrations that accumulates your funds, but always in sufficient amount to disburse monthly 65K into your "retirement account" which you take to immigration.

Edited April 30, 2007 by ProThaiExpat