Thai Slavery In The Middle East

[bangkokrick]

I have visited the middle east on numerous occasions and i have been very disturbed by what i have seen regarding the overseas workers. Most of these overseas workers that i have met have been given a 2 year contract working in the 'land of milk and honey'. They soon find out that the 2 year contract say for a factory worker will become an open ended contract working in a brothel.

a deplorable situation and tailor-made for bleeding hearts to rave and rant about

Do i detect a hint of sarcasm in your reply Dr Naam. This situation is real and certainly not tailor made by any means. Are you taking over from where Mother Theresa left off?

Rick, it looks more like you are taking over from mother Theresa. a "hint" of sarcasm is an understatement. inf fact my reply was sarcasm pure and aimed at your generalising "Most of these overseas workers that i have met... the 2 year contract say for a factory worker will become an open ended contract working in a brothel". there are more foreign workers in the Gulf States (excluding Saudi Arabia) than these states have indigenous inhabitants. of course they have been and are still exploited to the utmost extent. an unfortunate situation which nobody will change. but that doesn't mean that thousands of them work in brothels.

You can be as sarcastic as you like as you sit in your ivory tower because you know that you will never be in the same position of these unforunate people. Why would you want to show sarcasm about a situation like this?

By the way i never mentioned any numbers of the people affected in my post because quite frankly i dont know. It was you who mentioned thousands.

[endure]

I have seen this and i have spoken to people that are actually in this terrible position so i know that it exists. I can not believe just how hypocritical the Arab muslims can be as this goes against all of their so called beliefs.

Are you suggesting that every 'Arab Muslim' who lives in the Middle East is guilty of keeping Thai slaves? Or are you just fond of sweeping generalisations?

It appears that you have a problem reading plain English. I did not suggest or intimate that every Arab in the Middle East is keeping slaves. I simply stated that slavery does exist in the Middle East and in my opinion whether it be 1 or 1000's of people its still too many. where is the generalisation?

You said that 'THE Arab Muslims', implying that the hypocrisy was universal. If you'd said 'SOME Arab Muslims' you would have been correct.

[bangkokrick]

I have seen this and i have spoken to people that are actually in this terrible position so i know that it exists. I can not believe just how hypocritical the Arab muslims can be as this goes against all of their so called beliefs.

Are you suggesting that every 'Arab Muslim' who lives in the Middle East is guilty of keeping Thai slaves? Or are you just fond of sweeping generalisations?

It appears that you have a problem reading plain English. I did not suggest or intimate that every Arab in the Middle East is keeping slaves. I simply stated that slavery does exist in the Middle East and in my opinion whether it be 1 or 1000's of people its still too many. where is the generalisation?

You said that 'THE Arab Muslims', implying that the hypocrisy was universal. If you'd said 'SOME Arab Muslims' you would have been correct.

Wow i did not know that a discussion on such a serious topic would end up as a lesson in the English language. I used the term 'the Arab Muslims' to collectively describe the nationality and the religion of the people to whom this topic refers

I did not intimate that it was or is all Arab Muslims.

I apologise in advance for any spelling or grammatical mistakes that i may make whilst using my native language in any future posts.

Can you confirm whether its American English or English that we will work with?

[bina]

below is a link to a company run in america by an israeli (who has charges against him for illegalities in his manpower company in israel); he had applied for citizenship in america at one time; i lost track of the case but it was being followed by kav l'oved (workers rights org)... the reason i followed this case was that a thai friend that had worked in israel for 7 yrs joined this company to work in agriculture in america. he was transported all over the states, and spent some time in hawaii (as one of the board members knows as he helped me send computer pics to my friend at one point). i havve since lost contact as i have married (and thai men prefer that former attachments be severed and my friend also preferred to break contact); they were charged for damages to apartments (which never happened), charged for food/werent allowed to leave the premises, had 'tax' pay withheld, no phones, etc. my friend, who was intelligent and assertive (learned from his israeli employers!) stood up for himself and got what was coming to him but dont know the situation now. i posted about a year or so ago about this.

there name is global horizons.

http://www.gmpusa.com/

i hope this thread doesnt reduce itself to another thread of muslem bashing. im an israeli, jewish and i dont do that, so why on earth would others do so? we are discussing something much more important here.

human trafficking/slavery is just more up front in some societies where it is 'acceptable'. in other societies it isnt acceptable overtly, but definately tacitly as we have seen from other posts. everyone wants cheaper labour, that doesnt complain, and gets on with the dirty work. the reason thai labour was broght to the states was becasuse the hispanic migrant labour groups began to unionize. thai never unionize. and palestinians traffick in themselves.

in the fields, the rais (big boss) lays on his mattress sucking on his narghila, and the women and men and kids work for 12 18 hours no breaks, suffer verbal abuse, and get very little from the 'legal' pay the employer pays the 'rais'. often, the employer cannot deal directly with the workers, even if he/she would want to as the rais and his cronies put an end to that. i speak with personal experience as my ex husband ran the fields for the kibbutz and had palestianian workers (sub contracted with their rais) and thai workers. so this is muslem against muslem : again rich abusing poor, not an ethnic thing at all).

this is the link to the article about the law suit against them for withholding wages etc of thai workers...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/266...rmworker12.html

but by looking at their site, it seems that they are progressive and fair. dont let it all deceive anyone.

bina

Edited May 6, 2007 by bina

[bangkokrick]

Hi Bina.

Thanks for your interesting and informative posts. You obviously have a vast amount of experience in this field due to your personal involvement.

I am in no way bashing Muslims and the only reason that i mentioned the Middle East is that in my experience this is where the problem is most prevalent. I hate to see people abused purely because of their nationality or their social standing and i agree that it is the rich abusing the poor to get richer and it is a global problem.

It is very difficult for me to understand what these people must be going through as i have never and probably will never be in this position. I dont know what its like to go hungry and also to what limits a person will go to feed their familiy.

I can only sympathise and hope that the authorities will eventually do something to protect their citizens when they are working outside their respective countries.

[pampal]

Thanks for all your posts, bina. We're lucky to have people like you posting on Thaivisa.

It's just about bad ppl using poor ppl.

I think there's something to that zaza, but there are definitely countries and cultures that are more accepting of these practices.

Just as some countries, cultures and religions seem more accepting of suicide tactics and targeting innocent civilians for political gain.

Just as some countries, cultures, and religions seem more accepting of torture and illegal detentions and illegal wars and targeting innocent civilians for political and monetary gain and calling it "collateral damage" and "nation building"

[WaiWai]

i hope this thread doesnt reduce itself to another thread of muslem bashing. im an israeli, jewish and i dont do that, so why on earth would others do so? we are discussing something much more important here.

Yes.

human trafficking/slavery is just more up front in some societies where it is 'acceptable'. in other societies it isnt acceptable overtly, but definately tacitly as we have seen from other posts. everyone wants cheaper labour, that doesnt complain, and gets on with the dirty work. the reason thai labour was broght to the states was becasuse the hispanic migrant labour groups began to unionize. thai never unionize. and palestinians traffick in themselves.

Well said.

Think of educated men & women from the Phillipines & India working 14-hour days, 6 days a week as domesic helpers in countries like Hong Kong and Singapore and the numerous stories of inhumane treatment ; think of the Burmese workers in Thailand in the same situation.

These exploitative situations may occur more and more, ironically because parts of the world continue to become richer and more powerful (ironically because one might think this wealth could be brought to benefit the world as a whole.)

"No man is an island, entire of itself

every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main

if a clod be washed away by the sea,

Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,

as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were

any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind

and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls

it tolls for thee."

-- John Donne

bina, please keep your posts coming. Very enlightening for many of us.

[zaza]

Thanks for all your posts, bina. We're lucky to have people like you posting on Thaivisa.

It's just about bad ppl using poor ppl.

I think there's something to that zaza, but there are definitely countries and cultures that are more accepting of these practices.

Just as some countries, cultures and religions seem more accepting of suicide tactics and targeting innocent civilians for political gain.

Just as some countries, cultures, and religions seem more accepting of torture and illegal detentions and illegal wars and targeting innocent civilians for political and monetary gain and calling it "collateral damage" and "nation building"

Tit for tat I guess

[zaza]

i hope this thread doesnt reduce itself to another thread of muslem bashing. im an israeli, jewish and i dont do that, so why on earth would others do so? we are discussing something much more important here.

Bina... thanks again for your wise posts .

I really wish that there are more people like you .

Please accept my deep respect.

PS:Am Arabic but I do critisized brutality,crulity and crimes even if it was done by my people not like those other members who would think they are pure angels sent down to earth to make sweeping generalization on others who are only differ from them.

Edited May 6, 2007 by zaza

[Ulysses G.]

Thanks for all your posts, bina. We're lucky to have people like you posting on Thaivisa.

It's just about bad ppl using poor ppl.

I think there's something to that zaza, but there are definitely countries and cultures that are more accepting of these practices.

Just as some countries, cultures and religions seem more accepting of suicide tactics and targeting innocent civilians for political gain.

Just as some countries, cultures, and religions seem more accepting of torture and illegal detentions and illegal wars and targeting innocent civilians...

Pretty much the same countries that enslave workers, except they usually call them kidnappings instead of "detentions" and they have a twelve year old child cut the innocent victim's head off with a sword.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[bangkokrick]

hel_l please can you enlarge on that! 12 year old boys cutting heads off?

[mora]

the price today to come to israel for a thai worker is 8000 dollars!!!!. taken from news report: 'in thailand we have 'thailandim' that work for us' by yael avri 29/4/2007... reporting on a visit by 'lek' Junya Yimprasert of Thai Labour Campaign from TLC thailand...and itamar inbari 1/5/2007 who also has an article in ynet news. the reporter was quoting 'lek' about burmese and lao migrant workers in thailand.

there are 26000 thai workers here (legally or otherwise) and there are now 3000 more on their way as of last month (when the requests for permits for agriculture are processed. therein lies the problem we fell in to.

Bina, I cut your post a little otherwise the post would be too long.

Reading between the lines of the Israeli hiring foreign labour force, in this case the Thai, I question myself if the problem isn't much deeper....meaning that the Israeli government created the 'system' themselves by blocking the Palestinians to work in Israel, or am I wrong ?

Apart from that I'm curious to learn why Israel or it's labour forces' agencies hire workers from so far away..?

I mean, there are numerous poor people in lots of Eastern European countries like Albania, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia and former USSR states etc. etc....or African countries ?

Or is it because Far Eastern people are more easy to be 'slaved'.....?.....reading the circumstances the Thai and other workers from nations like Philippines have to work and survive under/with....

LaoPo

As an Israeli that lives in Thailand since 1990 and helped few of my Thai Ex relatives to get a working visa in Israel I would like to reply to your question but also and mainly to Bina.

The reason Thai workers are preferred is the fact they are used to the hot climate of Thailand that is similar to the one in the south of Israel. A Thai farmer will work his own field in Issan in heat conditions that might be considered improper in Europe and will cause the eastern block workers to “melt” on the spot. On the other hand the Thai farmers will do the exact same work he did back home, just for 10 times the pay!

Yes there is corruption and it start right here in Thailand: to get the license to “export” workers the Thai manpower company must give a “deposit” to the government of THB 25,000,000 or at least that was the amount 3 years ago. Bina has mentioned the rates but declined to let the forum members know that it is collected by the Thai manpower company back home. A small portion of that does go to bribes to Israeli officials (the current and last administrations are the most corrupt in the history of Israel) to get over quotas etc. but most is remaining with the local Thai companies to help them “recover” the high government deposit. By Thai law a private person can collect not more then $2,000 as a commission but no cup on a company that placed the “deposit”.

Israeli law is very strict and any case of employer not following the law is investigated. The main problem for Thai workers is that there is a cap of maximum 5 years for foreign workers. The min salary for foreign workers is $750 per month (about min salary in Israel) plus 150% OT plus health insurance and taxes by the employer. When legal employment is ended they just refuse to stop this “abuse” and run away to remain as illegal workers. On top in Israel only certain works where local labor cannot be obtained can get foreign workers quota. In many cases once in Israel the worker finds out that they can make more on the open market and run away causing big damage to the employer that can lose the croft not having the worker in time. Like in the US and EU countries illegal labor makes employers pay lower wages since they risk high penalties if the workers are caught.

Bina herself admits her husband was illegal for one year. I would like to see the immigration in LOS letting illegal farang caught after one year fixes his papers…

Bina I think u should start a new thread about social conditions and labor unions for Thai workers since u shifted this thread from the important issue of forced prostitution to the right of Thai workers to break the laws of the hosting countries in order to save some extra Bahts before going back home to build a big house in the village

[WaiWai]

Like in the US and EU countries illegal labor makes employers pay lower wages since they risk high penalties if the workers are caught.

That's an interesting spin on the situation !

Bina I think u should start a new thread about social conditions and labor unions for Thai workers since u shifted this thread from the important issue of forced prostitution to the right of Thai workers to break the laws of the hosting countries in order to save some extra Bahts before going back home to build a big house in the village

If you read previous posts, I think you will see that it was not Bina who introduced this "shift". (I don't see it as a shift, anyway; all part of the same overall topic & no need for a new thread.)

However, good to see other contributions to this very interesting thread.

[mora]

If you read previous posts, I think you will see that it was not Bina who introduced this "shift". (I don't see it as a shift, anyway; all part of the same overall topic & no need for a new thread.)

However, good to see other contributions to this very interesting thread.

The main "shift" as I see it is comparing oranges to apples, comparing poor Bangladeshi workers making $0.35 per day and hit if working slow to someone, still illegal, that making about $22 per HOUR! ( Bina mentioned 100 shekels per hour knowing its useless figure to most. The shekel is just above 4 to the USD). Does forcing one to respect his contract, not even to its full extent but just to minimize damage to the employer makes the last “owner” or “slaver”?

I did read most of the post enough to get upset at the late hour of 4:30AM when I saw this.

I will give an example to how dangerous people like Bina can be with a true example:

A certain Iranian Jew, living at the time in Hamburg, produced Iranian style silk carpets in Timbuktu area. In this cottage industry the villagers making this hand made carpets at home. Each carpet can take months to complete and is quite costly. One day German TV station filmed and aired how children labor is used to make these carpets (making it at home the whole family from the grandmother to the young contributed as shown). They called for boycotting the product being child labor based. It worked well and after few months the guy stopped his operations and moved to Belgium where he started another line of business. 100,000 villagers that their main income was depending on this industry remained with no source of income.

It is OK to be a serial poster but one that want to have some effect need to think of what they say…

[Naam]

from "thai slavery in the Middle East" to "knotting silk carpets in Timbuktu" = an amazing thread indeed.

[WaiWai]

The main "shift" as I see it is comparing oranges to apples, comparing poor Bangladeshi workers making $0.35 per day and hit if working slow to someone, still illegal, that making about $22 per HOUR!

We're talking about exploitative practices in their various manifestations; how they occur and how they might be prevented, with particular reference to less priveleged Thais, who appear to be a vulnerable group both within their own country and internationally.

Exploitation is not simply about the pay.

Does forcing one to respect his contract, not even to its full extent but just to minimize damage to the employer makes the last “owner” or “slaver”?

Depends on many factors, surely ?

Your story is an interesting one. On one hand, the children were learning skills, but on the other, they were (presumably) not receiving any other education to prepare them for the future, nor perhaps much time to play. Meanwhile, we suppose, the foreign boss was doing quite nicely. Why didn't he employ adults only ?

Edited May 7, 2007 by WaiWai

[Ulysses G.]

The main "shift" as I see it is comparing oranges to apples, comparing poor Bangladeshi workers making $0.35 per day to someone, still illegal, that [is] making about $22 per HOUR! ( Bina mentioned 100 shekels per hour knowing its useless figure to most. The shekel is just above 4 to the USD). Does forcing one to respect his contract, not even to its full extent but just to minimize damage to the employer makes the last “owner” or “slaver”?

Thank you for clarifying this mora. I was thinking of a shekel as being worth something like one baht, instead of 25 cents each.

[WaiWai]

Before anyone rushes to sign up, note that bina corrected that :

there was a typo: anon got 100 shekels A DAY not AN HOUR

[mora]

Before anyone rushes to sign up, note that bina corrected that :

there was a typo: anon got 100 shekels A DAY not AN HOUR

OK, that’s makes it much less but still above min salary in Israel.

For the carpet issue: no doubt the owner was making lots of money. He was not employing the kids, normally the father of the family was getting the materials, the wanted design and some advance. In real practice every member of the family was contributing. How much the children contribution was probably up to their parents. In every small Thai shop you will see children cover for their parents when they need to go out. It’s a fine line between helping your parents growing to be a productive person (a practice that by its non existence in the west contributed to a new generation of parasites living on unemployment allowance not even trying to work).

The test of abuse should be simple: did they get what they were promised before going. If the reply is yes then it is not abuse but taking advantage of a situation. The case that started this thread was simple: promised factory job ended as prostitutes  clear abuse. The gray zone is where they do get a factory or agriculture job as promised but they do not like it or boss not like them. Basic contract is 2 years but in most cases if everything is OK they work for 5 years. If the boss is unhappy with them it’s his RIGHT not to extend the contract. Blaming the boss for being unable to make enough as they expected having paid $8,000 for the Thai manpower company does not do justice to the facts. As Bina mentioned in most cases the preferred way is for existing workers bring other family members cutting off the manpower co commission but even then the family members will charge a commission themselves so the issue of ethics or abuse of weak Thais is not limited to strangers…

[bina]

mora

the minimum wage in israel at themoment is 20 shekels an hour not 13 shekels an hour...

my husband was illegal because his passport was withheld from him although it was supposedly given to the embassy we disovered it wasnt. we finally got it, and were able to find and employer who 'held' a visa. my husband was made to work not in agriculture but in building the man's house even though the visa was for field work. he slept in a celllar with dirt walls. the wife of the man said he was a second class person and therefore didnt need a decent place to live. he was paid with delayed checks for three months at a time. etc. and heis just an example. not one out of a million. one out of five or six cases. thats an awful lot.

most workers do not get OT all the workers on the moshav he is at now get 15 shekel an hour OT when in reality minimum wage is that OT is 150 % of regular wage (20 shekel to an hour so OT should be more)...

secondly, we all know that russian employeess wouldnt know a cabbage from a cucumber whereas thai workers do... it s just not the same type of life skills;

thirdly, the manpower companies both in thailand and in israel take commission (and i never spoke about bribes as i wouldnt know and am very strait forward when it comes to laws) and prefer new workers to ' old 'workers who dont pay commission

we all know that the moshavim pay less well, have bad living conditions , and dont pay insurance or anything else. (az al tebabal ba moach)

mora u are obviously someone who is on the 'other side' of the company coin. i've been to at least 40 moshavim from south to north and i always take care not to mention names because i am also in agriculture and understand the needs of the employers. however, i have spoken with hundreds of workers, and seen the conditions and heard their complaints. i also see how we have the thai workers living on the kibbutz here, and how other places do take care of and follow the laws. not everyone is bad. but an awful lot of them are.

and ulysses, if u didnt notice i corrected my quote.

and no one said it was all roses on the thai side. had u read all the thread, mora, u would notice that the companies i stated start with their bs. on the thai side. and also in israel there are enough thai mixed marriages that many of the thai (mostly women) are involved with these companies and help facilitate the thai side of the abuse. (i know of several but will withhold their names to save face for all involved. however, i remember one woman telling me what she tells the workers who complain that the employer doesnt let them leave to buy food, nor does he provide them with rice (the standard part of any pay)or access to provide food. she tells them that there are plenty others who are willing to pay to be in place of them and so they should shut up or get out. )

i havent found too many bosses who dont like the work their workers do. its very rare. only when thai workers show up drunk do they get 'fired' or 'moved'. and most thai that i met have told me many cases of a moshavnik not being able to pay on time due to crop problems, and the workers were willing to wait it out because they liked or respected the employer. i know several of these cases.

but again, many many many more of clear exploitation and slavery. and anon is not the only example but just a very personal example. i speak thai (and issan thai although anon insists on thai thai( and always checked out any story i heard, to see both sides of it. so mora, double check yourself. i am not one for making up stories or expanding truths. the opposite. i tend to down play situtations and search for the middle ground to see what is what. and i can certainly say, we have conditions similar to slavery here, whether u like it or not. its not just up to a worker to like his work. he is living at his work, and his room/board/passport are part and parcel so when a worker is charged 800 shekel a month for a room (if they can share it becomes 400 and 400 but not all places do that; some charge for rooms that arent rooms that are liveable; some dont charge, but five/six people sleep side by side in a caravan that is also the kitchen and bathroom area. and trust me, mora , as someone who has used those bathrooms, the thai outhouse is more sanitary,and safer than the bathrooms in those caravans which are usually right next to a sort of kitchen area which is also the sleeping are- as on this moshav up north where he spent the last week.)

and mora, u also know that the thai work better then many other ethnic groups.(i know, we tried to have new immigrants work in the apples, it was a catastrophe) etc in agriculture. not because they deal with the climate. because they are quiet, and work well, and efficiently (when was the last time u picked a tomato? or an apple?).

and mora, i have yet to hear of family members taking a commission (finders fee?) on family members coming out to work. its not a usual practice but a gesture of good will when a thai finds a place for an other family member -and itsalways thru a company to sort out the paper work and the agra (not sure what that is in english, the registration fee at the immigration center for foreign workers), which, btw, i paid for anon's visa a year ago/ the fee was 900 shekels although the visa holder is actually required to pay for it);

or for a past thai worker of mine which the employer took the same fee out of his salary even though the worker was moved by the company and against our will as he was really good and a nice person-- our visa level was reduced and he had to be placed somewhere else since he had a year left on his contract and we paid for his insurance as the new employer refused to 'waste money' on his thai workers, who btw, were locked in at nite also and had their passports taken too. it was very difficult for him to go from a good employer to a 'slave keeper' and this moshav near modain keeps the thai like slaves.

so dont foist responsibility back on someone else, by trying to justify things (the workers dont like the conditions, the employer doesnt need to keep to the contract, etc) to make yourself feel more comfortable with the situation.

bina

[bina]

just misssed the edit button time limit so:

mora, just to verify the amount an average thai worker makes in israel:

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/856260.html

the article is not in english and is a continuation by ruti sinai (reporter) of 'lek's' visit to israel for labour laws/abuse from TLC orginazation. btw, u are correct in saying that at the thai side there are huge amounts of money being made. nobody said that one countryman wont hurt or abuse or exploit another. its not surprising.

lek continues to discuss the problems in israel but points out that taiwan is worse. the article is short but points out that in taiwan thai women are brought over as sex workers. many of the thai here have worked previoiusly in taiwan and have mentioned amazingly inhuman conditions (work shifts of 22 hours; living conditions in which one worker works, and another sleeps, and then switch using the same bed, depending on the shift, etc.

i hope this thread doesnt disintergrate....

bina

[bloody tiger]

Dr Naam, as you are a doctor (in what i wonder) you should have knowledge about my comments, or do I need to hold your hand as we pass into the wonderful word of google.

i am a (retired) physicist and i don't need anybody to hold my hand nor do i need to google when slavery and/or arab countries are concerned. i have my own views and opinions of the Middle East where i worked and lived in different countries for nearly 1½ decades and still visit twice a year old friends over there.

this thread started with a reference to a few ladies who unfortunately were tricked into prostitution in Bahrain. after that a lot of nonsensical generalizing and unjustified as well as unqualified bashing started.

you Sir, topped it with the uneducated remark:

"Indeed the practice [slavery] still goes on and is sanctioned in 'the good book' of Arab lands."

unless you can specify "good book" and "arab lands" and submit details i call your remark bullshit. my view is that you have no idea of "arab lands" but of that "no idea" you possess a lot.

I absolutely have to agree with Dr Naam. So many posters here are so quick to rush in with thier generalisations and hidden racism. If you have a valid reply, then by all means reply, but reply with the evidence....otherwise all you are is just a snooty full of shit nobody

[bloody tiger]

I have visited the middle east on numerous occasions and i have been very disturbed by what i have seen regarding the overseas workers. Most of these overseas workers that i have met have been given a 2 year contract working in the 'land of milk and honey'. They soon find out that the 2 year contract say for a factory worker will become an open ended contract working in a brothel.

The way this works is that the local Arab business owners sponsor the overseas workers for a designated period of time and pay a sponsorship fee to engage them in work in the Middle East. This is normally organised through an agent.

When the workers arrive they are taken to the factories/brothels and they have their passports taken from them until they can repay the sponsorship money to their sponsor. Of course they can never pay off the sponsorship money because of the interest charges. They have nowhere to go and no one to complain to and they are screwed without a passport.

I have seen this and i have spoken to people that are actually in this terrible position so i know that it exists. I can not believe just how hypocritical the Arab muslims can be as this goes against all of their so called beliefs.

Slavery report

Just curious rick, how do you get to speak to these paople that have had thier passports taken from them and are kept locked away from the outside world. I may be wrong but reading betwen the lines I would assume(and only and assumption) that you met them in the said brothel in which case you are the vey reason for them being in that situation. Now before you jump down my throat and rip my heart out, i may well be incorrect in this assumption and duly apologise.

Also, i know you have posted otherwise, but when you say "just how hypocritical the Arab muslims can be" it does indeed imply that all arab muslims(which is the vast majority of arabs) are hypocritical. Some certainly will be, and they may well be the ones crossing the causeway from Dharan to Bahrain to attend a brothel but certainly doesn't mean that another 50 million are doing the same.

[Ulysses G.]

Also, i know you have posted otherwise, but when you say "just how hypocritical the Arab muslims can be" it does indeed imply that all arab muslims(which is the vast majority of arabs) are hypocritical. Some certainly will be, and they may well be the ones crossing the causeway from Dharan to Bahrain to attend a brothel but certainly doesn't mean that another 50 million are doing the same.

Perhaps he is confused about why so few of them speak out against terrorism although their religion supposedly forbids it. That might explain the feeling that they act like hypocrites.

[bloody tiger]

Also, i know you have posted otherwise, but when you say "just how hypocritical the Arab muslims can be" it does indeed imply that all arab muslims(which is the vast majority of arabs) are hypocritical. Some certainly will be, and they may well be the ones crossing the causeway from Dharan to Bahrain to attend a brothel but certainly doesn't mean that another 50 million are doing the same.

Perhaps he is confused about why so few of them speak out against terrorism although their religion supposedly forbids it. That might explain the feeling that they act like hypocrites.

Interesting how you came up with that comment from this thread....anyhow a totally uneduacted and fly from the hip comment anyhow....I'll use saudi arabia as an example, for every westerner killed in saudi by an act of terrorism there is maybe 30 saudis killed. To the saudi's terrorism is very real and present in thier own country and most saudi's are concerned and fearful of this on a daily basis. It is a topic discussed everyday on all the arab tv stations, radios(including talkback) and printed media. To say they don't speak out against terrorism is a stupid uneducated ignorant comment. Next time stick to the thread and if you have to deviate from it, don't come up with a lot of bullshit comments with no actual evidence. I rate your comment as a JOKE(and not a funny one either)

[Ulysses G.]

Maybe I should have specified terrorism against non-Muslims?

[Naam]

Also, i know you have posted otherwise, but when you say "just how hypocritical the Arab muslims can be" it does indeed imply that all arab muslims(which is the vast majority of arabs) are hypocritical. Some certainly will be, and they may well be the ones crossing the causeway from Dharan to Bahrain to attend a brothel but certainly doesn't mean that another 50 million are doing the same.

Perhaps he is confused about why so few of them speak out against terrorism although their religion supposedly forbids it. That might explain the feeling that they act like hypocrites.

how many have you met and talked to recently?

[mora]

just misssed the edit button time limit so:

mora, just to verify the amount an average thai worker makes in israel:

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/856260.html

the article is not in english and is a continuation by ruti sinai (reporter) of 'lek's' visit to israel for labour laws/abuse from TLC orginazation. btw, u are correct in saying that at the thai side there are huge amounts of money being made. nobody said that one countryman wont hurt or abuse or exploit another. its not surprising.

lek continues to discuss the problems in israel but points out that taiwan is worse. the article is short but points out that in taiwan thai women are brought over as sex workers. many of the thai here have worked previoiusly in taiwan and have mentioned amazingly inhuman conditions (work shifts of 22 hours; living conditions in which one worker works, and another sleeps, and then switch using the same bed, depending on the shift, etc.

i hope this thread doesnt disintergrate....

bina

Bina, I followed your link and the article was a positive one compared to some others I read. ‘Lek’ did mention some cases of paying less then 20 shekel per hour which I am not sure if is the minimum for foreign workers which is in net or for Israelis which is gross and therefore higher. 13 shekels will mean about $700 per month. The contracts are all in USD and the falling dollar eroded some of the salary value (cannot hold the stick on both ends, secure a dollar value but ask to shift when the shekel performs better). One thing this article was clear about was what I stated all along and confirmed by ‘Lek’ that the main problem is the Thai manpower companies and the Thai labor department policy of granting these permits. A worker will let nobody abuse him if there is no sward on his neck to return the loans they took to pay this high amounts given to the manpower companies (she mention the commission to go to the USA is $25,000 clearly showing it’s a pure manipulation from the Thai side). The road to hel_l is paved with good intentions and in this case the “deposit” of Baht 25,000,000 was intended to secure workers rights in case the overseas employer does not respect the contract. In real life it is only used as a barrier to block competition from smaller companies that would have reduced the commissions as per open market. On the Israeli side the government does not allow to cut the salary of the workers to take commission by the manpower companies so they need to get their finders fee from the Thai side which is worse then a small on going commission.

‘Lek’ trip to Israel was a perfect example of how Thai workers are losing being pawns in greater games: her visit was sponsored by a left wing organization, like a parrot she condemned the import of Thai labor causing Palestinians to lose their jobs and spoke against the security fence issues she understand nothing of and caused the vast majority to look at her as a useless stupid puppet ignoring anything she had so say on matter she might better understand. She missed a very good chance to promote Thai labor interests.

You asked me when is the last time I picked an apple or tomato? That was year back when I was in high school doing my one week in a kibbutz with my class. I’m not a farmer nor wish to be. I am also not having a manpower company but living here in Bangkok I have met enough people that are involved and overheard a lot of things.

On the other hand you are in the industry directly, your kibbutz have Thai workers and many of your associates are breaking the law as u say but “you do not want to call their name so they do not lose face” I see that as pure hypocrisy! Israel has very strong labor laws protecting the workers. Most people on this thread has no direct contact to the issue so just blow up steam but YOU knows of actual cases but prefer to ignore it unless it is personally touches you (your husband). Why wouldn’t you file a complaint? Or maybe you are afraid to be outlasted by the other kibbutz members since you break the law as well using quotas of agricultural workers to work in your factories?

If you do not wish this thread to disintegrate have a good look at the mirror first…

[bina]

mora u missed the point, maybe your english isnt that good for understanding what i wrote: i do/did translation work for kav l'oved; i almost got killed by anngry moshavnikim for photoing falling apart caravans of some workers in some moshavim in the south (police reports were filed, and they also attaacked the police later; just look for noga in a kav l'oved report last year).

second my kibbutz pays the same minimum as israelis receive, good houseing, and insruance and dont break the laws. it is netto as they pay taxes the same as us since they get a 'tlush i.e. paper listing salary.most thai dont, they get cash.

third, i dont use names here as this is a public forum and without stating actual times/places, by placing their names i could be sued for liable etc. those that need to know,know the names, including the thai liason that helps thai workers in the thai embassy. i've watched her at work and she's very very good and very overworked. i've reported many cases of what i call abuse/white slavery and she can only act if the workers themselves will speak out. thats the way the legal system works.

only the jperson involved in the infringment of the law can complain. i cant. only the thai worker beign screwed over. and well.. i've yet to meet very many that were willing, including the guy that used to work for us before he was forceably moved because of the reduction in visas, and the placeing company placed him in some hothouse run by a ba....d.

u are correct about the sword over the worker's neck; btw, a law was passed last year moving to change the system but has not been implemented as of yet. but then the companies will find an other way to exploit poor people from third world countries to come and work, and unfortunately, thai workers will always want that chance to 'make a milllion' even if the price is overwhelming. the promise is always better then the reality.

i do admit that there are many thai that have made a lot of money non withstanding conditions, etc. i visited their houses in thailand on a previous trip to see where our workers live, meet their families, etc. i had very close ties to many of them and wanted to get to know them.

once u meet people up close and personal, it is difficult to stay on the side.

what makes people be able to abuse or exploit other people is their lack of being able to identify with the person, making them objects. rather like in the army it is easier to deal with someone across from u as 'the enemy, and not as 'the father of little girl x'...

no thai workers in our factory, only russian immigrants from town near by, local family men/women. and kibbutzniks and people just out of army doing their one year thing.my son and his age group work in the orchards along with the thai, and he has known thai workers personally for six years (before i knew my present husband). im sure he will never see them as objects that work. he sees them as people that like to hear music, eat well, have fun and work hard. he has respect for them. something that most kids dont have for these guys.

my (thai) husband does not like me doing the volunteer work as it is dangerous to deal with some guys on these moshavim. it also causes trouble for many thai worker that speak with volunteers for workers groups. thanx to the help of a finnish minister woman, many many thai workers receive help in going to hospital, receiving clothing, etc when other people may not be able to get to them as she is a diplomatic (church) figure.

enjoy your trip in thailand next time come and pick apples for three months, we (the kibbutz,not me i run a petting zoo) employ students as part of a preferance hire program, it would be a good education for u)...

not sure about the problem of 'lek' having a leftist orientation. most workers rights people do you know. do i sense some hostility towards leftists?

as for muslem tendencies towards ethnocentrism, well, da!! and for some reason which no one, including muslem friends ,can explain, it would seem that in general muslems have a higher acceptance level for violence, and abuse towards people/things that arent muslem. (or maybe its just the muslem arabs i have contact with for the most part, in our neck of the woods. i cant speak for saudi arabia)

in a not too similar thread there was a discussion about live in maids/burmese workers in thailand/slavery in thailand etc. i guess semantics are part of what makes it complex. when does denying workers their rights become actual slavery? etc etc etc.

do your army time, travel the goa route, hang out in ko samui, have fun and then take a good look around. nothing is ever black or white and as u get older, it gets greyer.

all this talk about workers rights and i'm off to find a new career; 6 years of goats has got my goat and i'm getting to old for this stuff... at the ripe old age of 44 i am too old for the job market here!!! maybe ill go back to picking apples too!

bina

edit: reorganization of discombobulated sentences due to tiredness...

Edited May 8, 2007 by bina

[Ulysses G.]

Also, i know you have posted otherwise, but when you say "just how hypocritical the Arab muslims can be" it does indeed imply that all arab muslims(which is the vast majority of arabs) are hypocritical. Some certainly will be, and they may well be the ones crossing the causeway from Dharan to Bahrain to attend a brothel but certainly doesn't mean that another 50 million are doing the same.

Perhaps he is confused about why so few of them speak out against terrorism although their religion supposedly forbids it. That might explain the feeling that they act like hypocrites.

how many have you met and talked to recently?

A fair number, but for some strange reason we seem to avoid this subject.